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I doubt it can, and I doubt it will survive without recovering its own spiritual resources -- as I argued in Islam Unveiled. Rónán Mullen explores this idea in the Irish Examiner: "Christian Europe may have to rely on Muslims to keep the faith." (Thanks to Anthony for the link.)
HERE’S a question to ponder as December 25 approaches: for how long more will Christmas be celebrated in Europe? In the short term, these are exciting times to be European.New member states in the EU, a new European constitution, controversy and compromise between the European parliament and the European commission, the beginnings of a European army, aspirations to create a military superpower, and possible Turkish membership of the EU.
But behind all this political growth lurks future crisis.
Our continent is committing demographic suicide - systematically depopulating itself in what British scholar Niall Ferguson calls the greatest “sustained reduction in European population since the Black Death of the 14th century”.
Today, 18 European countries report ‘negative natural increase’ - i.e., more deaths than births. No western European country has the replacement level birthrate of 2.4 children per woman. Germany may lose the equivalent of the population of the former East Germany in the first half of the 21st century. By 2050, Spain’s population will decline from 40 million to 31 million while, in Italy, 42% of the population will be over the age of 60 and almost 60% of the Italian people will have no brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts or uncles....
Already, the Central Statistics Office forecasts that Ireland will need 45,000 immigrant workers each year for the next 12 years to sustain economic growth.
But this will bring its own challenges across the continent of Europe. The continent will be increasingly Muslim since immigrants are coming mainly from Islamic countries, mostly Turkey, but also from various Arab and North African states. In France, even if no more Muslims were to arrive, the Islamic population would double in one generation, and quadruple in two. Bearing in mind that immigrants tend to have children at a younger age than their European counterparts, those generations will reach maturity in a relatively short time.
If current birth rates persist half of the school age children in France will be Muslim by 2050. This makes the question of Turkey’s accession to the EU a very interesting one.
How do we feel about an increasingly Muslim Europe? Most of us believe in a generous, inclusive society where Europeans with their predominantly Christian heritage would get on with their Muslim brothers and sisters.
But last weekend’s papers carried the news that Europeans, especially people in the more secular north, believe there is increased negativity towards Muslims. This stems from a deep-down fear that Muslims do not, in sufficient numbers anyway, buy into basic concepts like democracy, equality of the sexes, freedom of religion and of expression, concepts which are so essential to life as we know it in the western world.
That fear, as we have abundantly established here, is not imaginary, but is based on the statements and actions of many Muslims.
There is another fear - that ‘Old Europeans’ may not be respected as their numbers decline in proportion to the Muslim population.Few people have enough contact with Muslim people to know how that community feels, for example, about terrorist activity in Palestine and Iraq. But it is troubling, say some, that Muslim disapproval doesn’t have much of a public face across Europe.
Nor does it have much of a public face anywhere else. As I have explained here and on various radio and TV shows many times, this is because Muslim moderates do not have the Islamic texts on their side. Radical Muslims can easily charge them with being disloyal Muslims if they speak out against violence committed in the name of Islam -- and point to numerous passages of the Qur'an and Sunnah to buttress their argument.
Even if Turkish membership of the EU helps to reconcile Islam and the West and acts as a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East, how would we fare in a Europe where non-Muslims became a minority?Would our churches survive as places of worship? Would the Vatican have to relocate to Mexico City, Buenos Aires or Manila in the next century? Where will our grandchildren, or their children, go to celebrate Christmas?
ACCORDING to George Weigel, biographer and friend of the Pope, Europe’s problems stem from “a crisis of civilisational morale”. In a book to be published next spring, he links Europe’s recent failure to acknowledge its Christian roots in its draft constitution and a despairing, defeatist approach to life which now characterises European life and thought.
Weigel asks why, in the aftermath of 1989, Europeans failed to condemn communism as a moral and political monstrosity. “Why was the only politically acceptable judgment on communism the rather banal observation that it ‘didn’t work?’”
He also wonders why there are “disturbing currents of irrationality in contemporary European politics”.
He asks why one-in-five Germans (and one-third of those under 30) believed that the US was responsible for 9/11, while 300,000 Frenchmen and women bought a book which argued that the US military destroyed the Twin Towers using remote-controlled airliners. “Why do certain parts of Europe exhibit a curious, even bizarre, approach to death? Why did so many of the French prefer to continue their summer vacations during the European heatwave of 2003, leaving their parents unburied and warehoused in refrigerated lockers? Why is death increasingly anonymous in Germany, with no death notice in the papers, no church ceremony - as though the deceased did not exist?”
The answer, says Weigel, is that Europe has lost faith in God. And when you lose faith in God, you lose faith in humanity. Like the great Russian author Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said in his 1983 Templeton Prize Lecture: “The failings of the human consciousness, deprived of its divine dimension, have been a determining factor in all the major crimes of this century.”
The loss of faith that has led to European depopulation and cynicism may also prevent us from integrating our Muslim brothers and sisters.
The irony of trying to build a Europe that doesn’t mention God in its constitution is that we are left with no rational basis for tolerance and respect towards others, apart from the rather thin argument that ‘tolerance is good because it works better’. Why in the absence of God should we be fruitful and multiply? Why should we postpone short-term gratification in the interests of society?
Why should we welcome immigrants?
Why, in turn, should they accept standards of freedom of religion and expression, the dignity and equality of women and the values of democracy, if they believe their values are better? Christianity offers an answer through the Pope who in his 1989 encyclical, Redemptoris Missio (The Mission of the Redeemer), argued that: “The Church proposes; it imposes nothing.”
A Christian Europe would defend tolerance as a Christian virtue - while also giving European society a sense of identity and the confidence to integrate people of different cultures and traditions.
As to whether Europe can simply get by with its secular version of tolerance, it’s hard to see how. Without the unifying vision of Christianity, what is there to live for? We Europeans are already asking that question, and our birthrates show the conclusion we have reached.
Posted by Robert at December 22, 2004 9:21 AM
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Even though I am an agnostic and not really a practising Christian guess where I initially learned "ALL" my humanist thought/ideas from? I learned it all from the bible...specifically the New Testament.
From an early age I learned what it was to be humane not from some obscure humanist philosopher that academics rave about and the large majority of people probably have never heard of, but from Jesus.
Without access to the bible at an early age I am at a loss as to where I would have learned any humanist thought from until I got to university and did a humanities degree.
Europe, don't throw away the main source of your humanism. Sure there are humanists that followed after Jesus, but without Jesus you will be deprived of the most influential and effective humanist of all time. Every time Europe has ever strayed to far from its original humanist source guess what has happened? Nazism and communism, and the next one will be Islamism.
History has given you the luxury of two history lessons so use them to your benefit instead of throwing them in the trash and ignoring them. You survived the first two strikes against your humanist society and its principle source but if you ignore the source of your humanism again you will not survive the third strike.
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at December 22, 2004 9:55 AM
Europe's decline and depopulation is obvious to us jihadwatchers but oblivious to everyone else, it seems.
What attitude should we take towards europe? I sometimes despair and think that europe deserves what it's asking for!
But I dunno if that's a wise attitude to take. How do you wean a sibling off the drug habit? Do you simply say " he/she deserves what s/he's asking for?" You try a little harder but eventually, they should take responsibility for their own actions. You maybe simply have to give up.
Put simply, Europe needs christian DNA to ward off islamocancer. The reason why America's geneticvally (in the cultural sense) much stronger and much more resistant to the islamoviruses is because it acknowledges and welcomes its christian roots. (Well, most folks apart from the secular elites do)
Alas, Europe, you shall be missed!
Posted by: voletti at December 22, 2004 10:05 AM
P.S. Merry Christmas, Europe. Just try to remember the (humanist) reasons why christmas is merry in the first place.
Posted by: obl r us at December 22, 2004 10:13 AM
It's not just Europe that's facing a deceline birthrate. If it weren't for massive immigration, the population of the United States would also be in decline.
Western culture today praises material success. As a result of these pressures, more familys choose (or are required to out of nescesity) have both parents working. That means having children is postponed, or forgone altogether, and the number of births remains small.
I present myself as an example of this. I'm 29 and have been married for 5 years. My wife and I both work. When we got married, we had planned on having children within 5 years. However, due to career development and lifestyle demands, childen has been put off for the time being. In all likelihood, I will be in my early thirties before we have our first child. I know I'm not unique in this matter.
Look at your own family history. I bet you'll find that with each generation you go back, the number of children born increases. By the time I get to my great-grandparents, they had 5+ children.
Truth is, we're being our-bred by our own choice. Whereas muslim culture forces women to be vertible baby factories, western women are more frequently becoming career workers instead of career mothers. Right or wrong, that's what's happening.
Posted by: Belisarius at December 22, 2004 11:02 AM
My mum came home from holiday in Pakistan 10 years ago and warned me that Islam would outbreed us all. The Catholics have similar breeding laws but not as many wives
I'm an atheist, but am happy now, to promote the Christian values that form the basis of our social structure and law, the society that does not persecute me for my beliefs.
This may be a good point to raise with the PC lobby, we need all onside against persecution of our heritage and culture.
at December 22, 2004 11:16 AM
hang on it was actully 17 years ago
Posted by: meredith at December 22, 2004 11:20 AM
There is an equally dramatic demographic sea change taking place in the United States. The principle difference between that in Europe and the US is that the Americans are absorbing Christian Hispanics from Mexico and Central America. While the brand of Christianity of these immigrants is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic with a generous smattering of indigenous pagan beliefs mixed in, thus possibly portending a significant intersectarian friction with the established Protestant establishment, the newcomers are at least non-Muslim. So when push comes to shove with the Muslim world (e.g., Europe), comes to shooting and bombing, on a scale not seen since WWII, I think it is safe to expect that these new Americans will defend the Constitution for the United States with their lives as vigourously as their non-Hispanic brothers in arms. We need no further proof of this postulate than the heroic sacrifice of Sgt. Rafael Peralta, USMC.
Posted by: Hulegu Khan at December 22, 2004 11:34 AM
obl r us, you say "From an early age I learned what it was to be humane not from some obscure humanist philosopher..."
That is very sad. Unfortunately, the only reason that philosophers, valid and invalid, are OBSCURE is because their teachings are deliberately withheld from us in our schools.
The grave misfortune in this is that religion focuses primarily on ethics, which is one of the five major branches of philosophy.
Philosophy was a secular discipline in the pagan eras of Greece and Rome. It was taught right along with mathematics and literature. When Christianity arose, its focus was on ethical issues, not the other four branches of philosophy, and so that was what was incorporated into it. Today, most people's exposure to philosophy is via their religion.
If we are to win the battle against Islam, we quite simply MUST be well educated in the other four branches: epistemology (ours in the West is reason, Islam's is revelation); metaphysics (ours in the West is that existence, the universe, is something that can be understood by the human mind, and is basically benevolent; Islam's is that Allah creates each entity, and each moment, de novo, and there is no necessary connection between them, and anything can happen, so nothing can be understood or predicted--notice the expression so often used, "If Allah wills. . ." This being the case, existence is frightening and malevolent); esthetics (ours in the West is that art recreates reality according to what the artist s values, and that often includes LIFE; Islam's art forbids life, because for it, life on this earth, this holds no value and must not be honored through art); and politics (politics is the application of ethics to social groups and behavior).
Guys, WE MUST BE THOROUGH IN OUR SELECTION OF WEAPONS IN THIS WAR; DO NOT ASSUME THAT YOUR FAITH ALONE IS ADEQUATE TO THIS TASK!
Just because our school system decided that philosophy should not be taught (for the same reason that Islam does not permit it to be taught, by the way, and that is because of the fear that it will "rock the boat" by teaching people how to THINK), doesn't mean we have to ignore it now.
Philosophy is critical to winning the war.
Posted by: cubed at December 22, 2004 11:49 AM
"The answer, says Weigel, is that Europe has lost faith in God. And when you lose faith in God, you lose faith in humanity."
The answer, amongst others, may be recovering our spiritual resources, but I don't think that's the problem - I think it's much larger and all-encompassing than that. The problem, in my opinion is Nihilism.
Here's several definitions of Nihilism - you tell me if you recognize the current world condition in this:
1. a viewpoint that traditional values nad beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless
b) rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief
2. a) a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility
3. a) A diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid 19th-century Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical change in society and government through terrorism and assassination.
b) terrorism
I've also seen it described as such:
4. Meaninglessness
5. An extreme form of skepticism
It seems you can find much of the malaise infecting Western Civilization right there.
In "Time of Need" by William Barrett (which parallels post-World War I nihilism and the art that reflected the period) the author points out that the answer to nihilism is vitality. Generally what you would see following such nihilistic periods is a return to what RS refers to as "spiritual resources" - which could also be described as a return to embodying the "mythological" ideals and institutions of a society. In the case of Western Civilization, this would be manifested largely in a return to its cultural and institutional roots. This would include the West's Judeo-Christian and Humanist (derived primarily from the Age of Enlightenment) roots and ideals.
It's possible that Europe meet this crisis with its secular vision of tolerance, but I think it's going to take more than that. The West needs to begin finding the meaning, value and appreciation of its civilization again. If that can be accomplished, the contrast between Western Civilization will be readily recognizable as preferable to anything Islam, through jihad, da'wa or taqiyya, has to offer the West.
at December 22, 2004 12:04 PM
If only I could type!
Posted by: Mike at December 22, 2004 12:10 PM
cubed,
Indeed, revelation is an inadequate basis for law and the rights we enjoy in our society. I find it supremely ironic that there are some who argue that in order to defeat Islam, we must adopt its epistemology.
Posted by: Hugh Bristic at December 22, 2004 12:18 PM
Ned Humphrey, Managing Editor of The Taipan Group, an American financial advisory firm, sends me the above lines in his daily newsletter. Despite its thorough out-of-context nature (not quite, the author seems to hint) or perhaps because of it, I take satisfaction in sharing its content with you all. Please note that as a European I couldn´t agree more with what Ned says, his vision of Europe’s grim future included.
Ned’s words:
“Dear Friend,
Last week I talked about the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a radical Islamist… and the lack of outcry it occasioned here in the US. Of course, reactions in Europe and especially in Holland have been much different.
The atrocity has forced one of the greatest taboos in Europe out of dark discussions around the beer table at the back of the pub and into the spotlight of public discussion. That is, the question of how to assimilate millions of mostly Muslim immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East into largely post-Christian, more or less tolerant Western European society.
The reason this has been a taboo is that up to and even following the events of 9/11 in the US, the prevailing opinion in Europe was that “it can’t happen here.” European officials have spent decades cozying up to anti-democratic régimes like those in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria to protect their oil supplies. Not to mention coddling the Palestinians and Arafat and looking the other way when EU and UN largesse went missing into the latter’s personal accounts in Switzerland or ended up funding terrorist attacks in Israel.
So European leaders of almost all stripes frowned upon those who questioned the burgeoning Muslim ghettos in the banlieues of Paris or the Vorstädte of Frankfurt. It was left to clearly racist and nationalist demagogues like Jean-Marie Le Pen in France and Gerhard Frey in Germany to raise issues that should have been discussed in the broader democratic forum. Instead, a comfortable myth was promulgated, that of the multicultural European paradise where everybody would just get along.
Trouble is, no one troubled to answer the age-old question: How do you deal tolerantly with people who would use your tolerance to put an end to tolerance? What to do with Islamist preachers like Britain’s own Abu Hamza al-Masri, the one-eyed, hooked-handed veteran of Afghanistan who now sits in an English jail on charges of incitement to murder? While he awaits trial, he and his family take advantage of roughly £1,200 (US$2,334) in welfare payments per week. And the British taxpayer just shelled out an extra £5,000 for a new hook for his missing hand. This for a man who has been quoted as saying, “One day the black flag of Islam will be flying over Downing Street.”
Abu Hamza was born in Egypt, but later acquired British citizenship. Well and good. But is there not at least an unwritten contract between a voluntary citizen and his new country that would make it unacceptable to work for the demise of the latter’s social order? And if there is, shouldn’t there be a way to send those who break that trust swiftly back to whatever land they came from?
Such questions as these used to be left to the skinheads and their nationalist puppeteers, people whose motivation is not the good of the country so much as their own struggle for power, using visceral, atavistic racism as a means to that end.
But Islam, not to mention radical Islamist doctrine, is not a race. Being “Islamophobic” (as I and most others who dare to raise such questions have sooner or later found ourselves labeled) does not mean one hates brown people, or people of any other color, for that matter. If it means anything, it is simply to question the ideology behind movements that are already here among us, targeting for death those who disagree with them. Like Theo van Gogh.
Now, the question of ensuring that our tolerance does not work its own destruction by overlooking those who have no tolerance for us has been pulled out of the dank cellars of the Front National into the light of day, where Europe will have to deal with it one way or the other - or face far worse problems in the not-too-distant future.
Thanks to all who wrote in to comment on last week’s article, whether pro or con. To those who suggested that an economic newsletter has no business commenting on such things, allow me to say that you can decide that for yourselves - when you get your own newsletter. To me, it seems plain that such questions - and their answers - will inevitably have a far-reaching effect on economies the world over.
Cordially,
Ned Humphrey”
PS.- Does any of you American JW’ers work at the USCIS, the Citizenship and Immigration Service, at a level where he can give me a helping hand when the inevitable arrives and I decide to move up to the land of ‘liberty within reason’?
at December 22, 2004 2:49 PM
They damn well better get it together, and fast. I have a British drinkin' buddy that lives here in the states. He's a true life English soccer hooligan....Actually I talked to him today, and he said that the Brits hate Muslims.
So, this all boils down to yet more stupidity of another government that puts it's immigration policies above the well being of its own citizens.
Dumb bastards.
Posted by: DCWatson at December 22, 2004 3:13 PM
Cube,
When pointing out the differences bewteen our culture and that of the Mohammadians in your paragraph:
"If we are to win the battle against Islam, we quite simply MUST be well educated in the other four branches: epistemology (ours in the West is reason, Islam's is revelation); metaphysics (ours in the West is that existence, the universe, is something that can be understood by the human mind, and is basically benevolent; Islam's is that Allah creates each entity, and each moment, de novo, and there is no necessary connection between them, and anything can happen, so nothing can be understood or predicted--notice the expression so often used, "If Allah wills. . ."
You reminded me of a list I gathered long ago of other basic differences that render void any attempt to understand each other.
-All humans wish and seek the same basic things: life, liberty, peace and happiness.
-Life, human life in especial, has a supreme value and meaning.
-Men and women are equal and have exactly the same legal and social rights and duties.
-Only individuals -as opposed to parents, sons and family in general- are legally responsible for their punishable actions.
-Shame and pride are universally felt sentiments, upon same conducts.
-Doesn’t matter how opposed believe-systems and religion creeds are, there always is room for them all in advanced, illustrated societies through dialogue and compromise. The same applies to all sorts of value-systems, eminently political ones.
-Freedom of choice granted, all humans will opt for pleasurable things and will reject pain on all its forms and manifestations.
-Democracy is the best form of governance and it should be made universally available.
-Education is an intrinsically good factor and the best method available to solve most social and individual problems in all places and all the time.
-Science is the shortest cut to success.
-Beggars and derelicts always feel gratitude to the samaritan hand that helps them in their plight.
-Land frontiers are sacrosanct.
-‘Man is a rational animal’ is a definition that provides a solid base for the understanding of all individuals and peoples.
-The ‘do not do unto others what you wish not to be done by’ is a principle that enjoys universal acceptance.
-Empathy, tolerance and hospitality are virtues always seen favourably by the ones benefiting from them.
-Nobody would call ‘religion’ anything resembling a recipe for war, death, booty, torture, enslavement and at the same time seeking the physical elimination of those who share not that particular creed and finally dictates a death sentence for any of their folk gone astray.
Am I wrong assuming that any of us would answer with a big YES to each and all of teh above? Do I need to say what the answers would be if asked the average Muslim guy...?
at December 22, 2004 3:14 PM
Finally a good discusion on DW! This site should be about developing ideas and organizing.
It should also be about finding the common ground between us non-Muslims in the face of this challenge as we come from so many different and, indeed, opposing viewpoints. I am an Irish atheist ex-Catholic with European social democratic sympathies. I am critical of many aspects of American foreign policy and have little time for George Bush and the Republican Neo-Cons. American evangelical Protestant Christianity is one of my worst types of religion and any contact I have with it makes me physically nauseous (but nowhere near as much as with as islam). Those are some of my viewpoints but I don't think DW is the place to discuss them, even though I guess many readers and especially some of the regulars at DW may be beginning to twitch and feel nauseous themselves at my presence on this page.
Back to the issue under discussion. Europe needs a more robust and explicit declaration of it's secular political and cultural tradition.as well as it's Christian past and indeed, present. This will include a more thorough and honest discussion of our history and how we arrived at this position THROUGH our Christianity. Here was the contibution of many great Christian humanists like Erasmus and Thomas Moore. The beginnings of our Scientific Revolution are founded on the work of may devout Christians like Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Boyle and Newton. Many of the roots of modern political discourse can be found in the writings and arguments produced in the 17th century British Civil Wars by men and women profoundly inspired by their Christian beliefs (eg. please read up on the 'Putney Debates' of 1647!).
At the same time a parallel atheistical and agnostic tradition was emerging which gave us Francis Bacon, John Locke, David Hume, and many others who made great contributions to science and letters. These two traditions have interplayed and scored off each other over the last three centuries and given rise two our political and social culture and our legal rights. They particularly inspired the idealism of the reconstruction period after WWII, sadly and inevitably lost with the opening of the Cold War. This is a political culture shared by Europeans and Americans. Islam has nothing to say or contribute to these as it is a throw-back to an older brutalistic medieval age.
In Europe we should celebrate these two traditions in which I understand our rights and quality of life to be rooted. As well as multiculturalism, another cause of rot in our society is materialism and consumerism - unfortunately so prevalent in the Christmas period. This is a pity because Christmas can be so meaningful to Christian, Pagan, Agnostic and Atheist alike. As is well-known, the fathers of the early church 'Christianised' the old Pagan festivals of Europe, taking aspects of their old meaning and symbolism and adapting them to the new faith, giving us the traditional Christian devotional year. Hence, Christmas corresponds to the Winter solstice when the sun apparently stands still in the skies of the shortest day of the year, reminding us that despite winter it will return bringing warmth life and hope, likewise it is the time we dwell on the story the coming of the Christ-child, whose birth gives hope and presages the coming of his gospel, his life-giving message of love, brotherhood and redemption.
Here in Ireland there is a wonderful dual Christian and Pagan heritage. I was reminded of it as I read the paper this morning when on the radio came a description of the work of good Christian people amongst the poor at this time of year (work that in fact they continue throughout the year!). They are like the monks and nuns of the old Irish church in the Age of the Saints. On the cover of the newspaper was beautiful photograph of the golden ray of solstice sun creeping up the the passage of Newgrange to illuminate the ancient chamber, a building constructed by our ancestors over five-thousand years ago to venerate this auspicious time of year.These two things gave me a very positive feeling. Our roots go deep.
Our country has a small population of Muslims (about 20,000), I bear them no malice as people. Many are simply working to get by, raise their children and have a good life - which is what we all wish for. However, they now live in a new context which they must recognise. They cannot live and behave as if they were still in their homelands. They will have to adapt their religion and change. The Irish do not respond well to injustice. Our roots go very deep in our land and will not be pulled up easily.
Posted by: fieldvole at December 22, 2004 4:36 PM
"Already, the Central Statistics Office forecasts that Ireland will need 45,000 immigrant workers each year for the next 12 years to sustain economic growth."
Why will Ireland NEED these immigrant workers? What's wrong with less economic growth, less immigrants and full employment in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe? Who will benefit the most from the economic growth? Probably the filthy rich industrialists who are willing to sacrifice their countries, culture and people so they can live a life of decadent luxury.
Posted by: Arhopala at December 22, 2004 6:27 PM
Yes, Arhopala, WHY does there have to be economic growth?
Why does Europe have to have more people?
Surely there'd be enough money to pay pensions?
I think that it's a good thing that Europe is depopulating. There'll be more countryside available, people will be able to live in houses instead of horrible apartements.
Posted by: Voltaire at December 22, 2004 7:04 PM
"Can Europe meet this crisis with its secular version of tolerance?"
No.
Posted by: Hugh at December 22, 2004 7:53 PM
Exactly Votaire
I'm reading a book on globalisation by John Gray. Apparently Japan is approaching a no-growth or low-growth economy. Gray cites a Japanese economist who asks " Can Japan achieve something akin to the 'stationary-state-economy' advocated by John Stuart Mill, in which technological progress is used to enhance the quality of life rather than merely to expand the quantity of production?" Why is it that governments and organisations such as the Central Statistics Office in Ireland focus myopically on economic growth? Wouldn't quality of life be a better measure? How does the presence of a hostile and growing underclass of muslim immigrants affect the quality of life in Europe? Does economic growth weigh up against no-go areas, crime, harrassment and the visual degradation of your own culture and its replacement with an alien culture as exemplified by more and more mosques?
Posted by: Arhopala at December 22, 2004 8:46 PM
Organized religion lost its grip on Europe. The churches lost their power, the flock has gone astray...
Europe by itself could regenerate.
With Islamic infiltration it will degenerate, rapidly.
Secularism might hold it's own, but tolerance will not hold up.
I can see the blood in the streets already...
Posted by: Terminator at December 22, 2004 9:05 PM
Oh dear! Arhopala and Voltaire really have opened out the debate! Apparently according to the way the Irish economy is currently structured, yes, Ireland does require sustained immigration. We have one of the most open economies in the world. Our immigrants could be sourced from a broad range of 'sympathetic' countries though, like Latin America, the Philippines and Buddhist south-east Asia.
However, the queries you raise are related to debates about population growth and control, globalization of commerce and finance, and how, and whether, to bring about economic and ecological sustainability. Is DW the place to be discussing these?
Hugh, is there any chance we could draw out your response to the question a little? What aspect of the European approach do you think fails? Is it the secular bit, the tolerance bit, or is it the version? There have been grumblings on this site about secularism. For me a secular public and political sphere (which I would like to see extended to education)is neutral and guarantees the rights of all of us whatever our persuasion, However, Euro-American secularity, if I can call it that, has risen in the particular historical context which I mentioned above. There are limits, our societies cannot tolerate intolerance and they cannot tolerate parallel and distinct societies living amongst us (unless they be Amish, Lubovitch Jews or Hare Krishnas,etc, which are so small they don't count). I am of course talking about the Sharia-based Muslim Umma.
Posted by: fieldvole at December 22, 2004 9:19 PM
To destroy a civilisation, one needs to first destroy its roots. This is what is happening in the West, as step by step, the roots of liberal secular democracy - its Judeao-Christian heritage are downgraded or removed. This is clearly manifested in the way Christmas is removed from the public square. Once that essential goal has been accomplished, then a replacement theology can be planted in the body politic. What that replacement theology is to be, is still a matter of debate.
at December 22, 2004 9:32 PM
Yeah, and lets not forget too thank the left and liberals for the murderous machine of Abortion too.......and also thank the left for letting in Islamic hordes........
If Muslim overtake us and start slaughtering us in the streets, at the very least, lets hope that Liberals are the first to be strung from every lamp post in Western Civ.......friggin treasonous bastards!!
And for the record in this article.....Muslims are not my brothers or sisters.....only in the sense we are fellow humans......
Posted by: Albertanator at December 22, 2004 10:45 PM
We have witnessed ad infitum throughout history , the cycle of rise and fall of human civilisation.
Can western civilsation hope for more that just repeating this endless cycle?
Or is the fall into darkness and ignorance part of the dance as surely as is the rise and emancipation?
Are beliefs in secular principles of morality as powerful as religious ones?
Because religion, Catholicism,Lutherism, Protestantism et al,(not national frontiers) is what has historically given Europe its identity and fuelled its morals and its will to resist invasion.
Islam is often said not to recognise frontiers or land that is given a name of this country or that. It only matters that the occupants are muslims.
But so it was with Europe. Europe was a land of Christians subdivided into areas called countries.
Religion was the cement that held Europe together and gave it purpose.
at December 22, 2004 10:54 PM
This Christmas, I, a Presbyterian, have been asked to preach to Episcopalians out of John 1.1-18. And in good, fundamentalist fashion, I will insist that the ultimate truth is that God became flesh and dwelt among us. May our bloody strife remain locked away in the 17th century.
But having read today's responses, I would urge all here to reconsider the Christian roots of the West. Read the Prophets and New Testament, and tell me if the street-corner ranter (if it is indeed he who has turned you away from the faith) has truly given the whole story.
Some have lamented the absence of ethics from our educations. But no teacher can give you what he himself lacks in the first place. Could this lack of an ethical sense in most of our educators be a necessary consequence of our separation of church and state coupled with the facile assumption on the part of too many of our educators that Christianity is necessarily an enemy to wisdom and maturity?
I am not surprised that humanists would find values from the words of Jesus, God Incarnate--the Logos, or "reason" of God himself become flesh. Maybe the Islamicist assault will remind us Westerners that "humanism" originally meant not the deification of man, but an interest in all facets of our Creator's work. Could it be, dear friends, that the "humanism" of today is such a paltry thing simply because it has forgotten its theistic--specifically Christian--roots? Is not the thing that falsely passes itself off as "humanism" in fact the offspring of the 19th century's cult of the machine?
Can our godlessness (actually, idolatry towards created things) truly teach us any ethical values? I doubt it. It was the scientific positivists Schlick, Waismann, and Schaechter who told us that their "scientific" philosophy had no way to get from the empirical "is" to the ethical "ought".
The father of the Western "rationalist" tradition, Socrates, when challenged by Callicles over why the tyrant isn't the happiest of men, fell back on confessing a divine judgment after death (see his _Gorgias_). I propose that this, plus Socrates' rejection of Greek polytheism, may be why so many of the Greek fathers of the Christian church recognized in Plato (to whom we owe the preservation of Socrates' dialogues) a kindred spirit.
Most of us here, whether Christian, Jewish, or "secular", have lost faith in multi-culturalist leftism, because we see it offers no defense against an Islamicist radicalism that seems Hell-bent (choice of words deliberate) on turning Western civilization into another slum surrounded by desert--just as it offered no real defense against the so-similar totalitarianism. This is why I urge a return to Christianity. There's a lot more in it than the professional scorners and scoffers (see Psalm 1:1) our educations taught us to revere as wise and progressive "lights" led us to believe.
May I note, to break the rule and end on a note of judgment rather than grace, that God pursues the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generatios of them that hate him. Could it not be that we are now in those third and fourth generations of idolatry of wealth and power, and hatred of God? If we do not repent, will there even be fifth or sixth generations?
at December 23, 2004 12:15 AM
I am also an Agnostic but can see the danger of Christianity being wiped out by Islam. Am ready to support Buddhists,Hindus,Sikhs, Pagans and Atheists - ALL OF US ARE DANGER FROM THE SPREAD OF ISLAM NOT JUST BY THE RELIGION BUT BREEDING POTENTIAL OF MUSLIM WOMEN. One of the questions I would like to ask stupid Western Leaders is WHY TAKE ALL THESE MUSLIMS WHEN THE DECLINING THOUSANDS OF MIDDLE EAST CHRISTIANS ARE STILL BEING BEING PERSECUTED ?? Also half the Christian populations of the Balkans want to emigrate, why the hell have we got all these Muslims instead of Christians??
Only answer I can see is these Politicians have been bribed by Petro Euros , one of the chief culprits is Chirac - they don't come more corrupt than him. Weakest link is the very tolerance and
'no one ought to be dIscriminated against on the basis of their religion.' Which in theory would be
fine except that ISLAM DOES NOT ACCEPT ANY OTHER
RELIGION!! There my friends - not to put too fine a point on it - West has been 'hoist by its own Petard.'
at December 23, 2004 2:08 AM
Cid Campeador (and others): Is the "rationalist" West all that "rational"? How "rational" is the "enlightened" Thomas Jefferson's "We hold these truths to be self-evident"? I daresay that if Jefferson had been raised as something other than a Protestant Christian, his "self-evident" truths would have been pretty different.
An epistemology based on revelation of the infinite, all-wise mind of God cannot be flawed at all--unless it's based on a so-called "revelation" that is really a man-made lie. One based on the true Word of God can take on false excrescences and "accidents"; but the framework will remain sound, and able to survive the removal of these excrescences and accidents. One reason the supposed "rationalist" epistemology of the enlightenment is going down the tubes is because it tried to hide the shoddiness of its framework with excrescences and accidents borrowed from the Christianity it rejected. Throwing these elements away, it is now exposed as unable to bear the weight of modern philobarbarism and the assaults of an Islam that has been intellectually bankrupt for centuries.
Posted by: Kepha1 at December 23, 2004 2:16 AM
Without the unifying force of Christianity, what is there to live for?
I beg to differ: "Unifying force"- yes, it (Christianity) kept Europe free of Islam, or rather free from Islam. Thank you very much...
The question has not been asked what Europe could be today, without the shackles and constraints caused by Christianity...
But to live for Christianity? Another shackle that supposedly is a solution?
There are many ways to find spiritual enlightenment and Christianity is not necessarily the 'right recepy' and certainly not the only one. Europe has been there: Elvis left the building and took the religion with him...
The dilemma is that there is no substitute for the vacuum caused by the loss of that unifying force: Religion is for those who need it, and there are many here among us who do not need it...
The solutions of the past are not the solutions for today and tomorrow. A religious war against primitve barbarians trying to force upon us a med-evil ideology is in the cards. Those who forget their history are indeed forced to repeat it.
Whatever it takes, pressure will be countered with pressure and Europe will find means and ways to unite and to take the necessary measures to clean up this mess. I can see the blood in the streets, but I don't see Islamic dominance in my lifetime...
at December 23, 2004 4:59 AM
Be not so quick in blaming Islam for the downfall of Christianity in the West. I believe most of the blame must be put firmly at the securalist intellectual elite, who are firmly in control of education, politics and much of the media.
islam of course will jump in to fill the void left in the spitual needs of westerners, in a way far more dangerous than the host of Pseudo religions that have sprung up in the last thirty years.
Can the "ideals" of securalism (tolerance, goodwill, etc etc) equal those of the bible, in a world that considers religion to be a dinosaural belief which must be abandoned in age of enlightenment?
the answer is if course No. because secular belief is based on logic and religious belief is based on faith.
So those who fight for religious beliefs will always fight harder than secularists.
The increase in well being of a civilisation is inversely proportional to its degree of religious faith.
An even Islam is subject to this rule and well they know it! THat is why the saudi princes and the ruling classes of muslim countries are obscenely wealthy and the rest live in poverty.
Dhubai has no islamists and is the proof.
Arafat knew this well and kept the pals in poverty whilst he salted away the countless millions given to him by the idiotarians of the EU and the UN.
Idiotarians who knew the money was never going to reach the ordinary palestinians anyway and did not even care.
Its hard to believe that a strong middle class in an Islamic state would practice miltant islamism.
Like westerners who have taken up "the good life" they would not allow their Immams to take them back to the stone age.
at December 23, 2004 5:21 AM
the greatest “sustained reduction in European population since the Black Death of the 14th century”.
The Black Death attacked the body.
The Islamic Death attacks the brain.
at December 23, 2004 6:35 AM
I'm sure your views on abortion and how those with a liberal point of view should come to their end are shared by many/most of your muslim brothers Albertanator
Posted by: Arhopala at December 23, 2004 7:37 AM
A knifeman has killed one man and critically hurt four other men and a woman in a series of apparently random stabbings in north London... The attacker, described as a Turkish or Middle Eastern man aged around 30, was arrested after the 90-minute frenzy began shortly after 8am.
Yet another peaceful and moderate muslim who suddenly goes 'mad'.
The disease of islam is within the muslim, and it can come to the fore at any moment. There is no good in islam. Their demon god takes delight in torturing souls in hell. As only Satan rules in hell taking delight in torture, it leads quite logically as to who allah really is.
I do not see any alternative but expulsion of muslims or an exchange of populations- muslims in the West for the terribly persecuted Christians in muslim nations. It is that or else the destruction of civilisation wordwide, as muslims outbreed the rest, in a couple of generations at the most.
It is a tragedy that after a long and arduous struggle, this civilisation had just come to flower, and is now faced with extinction. The main reason for this demise is not the political Left but the vast majority of good people in the West - their kindness and generosity. If you like it is us, kind and generous who have brought this situation on our heads (JW/DWs fall into this category as well except that they have seen the threat of islam).
We need to convince the majority of the people, the good people in the West, that their generosity is leading to the destruction of all that they themselves hold good.
at December 23, 2004 8:36 AM
Europe, the whole West is now a diverse world, in many ways it’s a shame, and in many ways it’s an asset.
I have the feeling/hope many liberals will come to our side and therefore I try not to alienate them. The PC agenda is a tool for us to fight this oppression with. Team it with traditions of religion if we can revive them and we begin to build a multi skilled freedom task force.
The diversity of the West is capable of reviving religion, philosophy and general decency, slamming a PC styled law suite on Islam for discrimination. Having more babies and making good use of the overskilled childless adults.
The population issue is scary. So yes lets have more babies!!! Also lets realise the childless adults have often luxuriated in education and careers. They are also an asset to us. Their expertise in professional protesting,finances, arts or advertising etc can only help.
United we stand divided we fall.
at December 24, 2004 1:40 AM
Babies are a secondary issue. The important thing is to have much (and I mean much!) less muslims. No use having babies and trying to outbreed them, it won't work. Western women aspire, rightfully so, to being much more than breeding machines but muslim women don't have much choice in the matter unless they become less muslim. Religious fanaticism is namely one of the best correlates with female fertility and you don't get much more large-scale religious fanaticism going on than among muslims. Hopefully some day in near future it will be perfectly acceptable to say that we've had quite enough of the muslim immigrants, our patience is expended and that it's time for them to go back to their islamic countries of origin where they can practice their religion as they see fit. From now on we'll only welcome apostates and persecuted minorities (christians, Zoroastrians etc.) who actually show some gratitude for being allowed to escape the horrors of islam. Why finally should a country differ so substantially from a household? Would we welcome people into our homes that make more and more demands, steal, and don't even take that much effort to conceal their goal of taking over the household? I don't think so. The analogy with a household isn't even that far-fetched since science such as ECOlogy and ECOnomy are derived from the classical Greek for household!
Posted by: Arhopala at December 24, 2004 8:40 AM
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