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From the Chicago Tribune via the KRT Wire, with thanks to all who sent this in:
What is happening in Europe may provide a partial preview of what lies ahead for the United States and its fast-growing Muslim population.For the first time in history, Muslims are building large and growing minorities across the secular Western world - nowhere more visibly than in Western Europe, where their numbers have more than doubled in the past two decades. The impact is unfolding from Amsterdam to Paris to Madrid, as Muslims struggle - with words, votes and sometimes violence - to stake out their place in adopted societies.
Disproportionately young, poor and unemployed, they seek greater recognition and an Islam that fits their lives. Just as Egypt, Pakistan and Iran are witnessing the debate over the shape of Islam today, Europe is emerging as the battleground of tomorrow.
"The French are scared," said Tair Abdelkader, 38, a regular at the tented mosque whose light blue eyes and ebony beard are the legacy of a French mother and Algerian father. "In 10 years, the Muslim community will be stronger and stronger, and French political culture must accept that."
By midcentury, at least one in five Europeans will be Muslim. That change is unlike other waves of immigration because it poses a more essential challenge: defining a modern Judeo-Christian-Islamic civilization. The West must decide how its laws and values will shape and be shaped by Islam.
I don't think the West has any power to decide how its laws and values will shape Islam, but it certainly can decide to do nothing and allow its laws and values to be shaped by Islam. And alternatively, it can recover some sense of its own cultural identity and require that the Muslims who come into Western countries accept their laws and values, rather than those of Islam.
But will they find the spiritual energy necessary to do even that?
For Europe, as well as the United States, the question is not which civilization, Western or Islamic, will prevail, but which of Islam's many strands will dominate. Will it be compatible with Western values or will it reject them?
If only it were really that simple. The situation is complicated by the fact that all the "strands" of Islam will be present, no matter which one "dominates." If a group of moderate Muslims reaches some lasting accommodation with the parameters of Western societies, what will that group to do rein in its violent brethren? So far such efforts have been quite insufficient.
Center stage in that debate is France, home to the largest Islamic community on the continent, an estimated 5 million Muslims. Here the process of defining Euro-Islam is unfolding around questions as concrete as the right to wear head scarves and as abstract as the meaning of citizenship, secularism and extremism. In some cases, conservative Muslims have refused to visit co-ed swimming pools, study Darwinism or allow women to be examined by male doctors.One young St.-Denis fundamentalist recently set off for Iraq and was captured fighting American troops in Fallujah. Stunned by stories like that, France is hoping to use the legal system to influence the direction of Islam within its borders.
The government has deported 84 people in the past six months on suspicion of advocating violence and drawn wide attention for banning head scarves and other religious symbols in public school. But even supporters of that tough approach concede that the measures can do little more than patch the widening cracks in Europe's image of itself.
"I'm not sure we'll go much further than gaining a few months or years" in the effort to limit Islam's imprint on France, said Herve Mariton, a member of the French Parliament who lobbied for the head scarf law. "That may be useful. But there is no way this is the ultimate answer to the challenge."...
Young French Muslims gravitate toward charismatic spokesmen of a new European Islam, such as controversial Swiss-born philosopher Tariq Ramadan, whose French headquarters here in St.-Denis urges a "silent revolution." In his writings, he advocates using the political process, instead of violence, to win Muslim rights and recognition across Europe.
Ramadan's supporters call him a major voice of moderate Islam, but some critics say he is tied to extremists, a charge he denies. He was scheduled to begin teaching this year at the University of Notre Dame until U.S. immigration authorities rescinded his work visa, citing unspecified national security concerns.
Here is a hint as to what they may have had on Brother Tariq.
The results are stark. Within six years, for instance, the three largest cities in the Netherlands will be majority Muslim. One-third of all German Muslims are younger than 18, nearly twice the proportion of the general population.With that growth, and the deepening strains between the U.S. and the Islamic world, radical Muslim clerics have found no shortage of adherents. A 2002 poll of British Muslims found that 44 percent believe attacks by al-Qaida are justified as long as "Muslims are being killed by America and its allies using American weapons." Germany estimates that there are 31,000 Islamists in the country, based on membership lists of conservative federations.
Year by year, European Islam pulls further away from the cultural traditions of Morocco or Algeria, refashioned all the while by the pressures of life in Europe. For some, the solution is a more liberalized Islam that incorporates Western concepts of individual rights and tolerance. But for others, the answer lies in a stricter interpretation of the core elements of the faith.
"It is more fundamentalist in its essence because what you subsist on is personal practice_reading of the Koran, Shariah," Vaisse said. "It can take very humanist forms, but in some cases, it can also lead to political radicalization and terrorism."...
Then we hear that the moderate leader's influence is not increasing, but weakening:
Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris in the heart of the city, is a long-standing voice of moderate Islam in France. On the other side is Lhaj Thami Breze, president of the Union of Islamic Organizations of France, the increasingly powerful Islamist federation....There is no question that Boubakeur's influence is weakening. Last year he was handpicked to be president of the official French Council of the Muslim Faith, a new body established by the government in 2003 to give Muslims a formal voice in dealings with the state. Just as other bodies represent Catholics and Jews, the council speaks for Muslims on issues such as the construction of mosques and the training of clerics.
But things didn't go as planned. In the first election, his moderate camp was trounced by conservative candidates who won 70 percent of the 41 seats. The next vote is scheduled for April, and moderates are expected to lose even more to the men he believes are "radicalizing Islam" in France.
"The facts are there: Religions that close in on themselves become sects, and that is what is happening to Islam here," Boubakeur said. "And I am very sorry about that."
Across town, beside the highway in the tough Paris suburb of La Courneuve, Boubakeur's opponents are confident. Breze greets visitors at his glass-and-steel headquarters with a glossy package of materials and a calm message of "coordination, not confrontation."
"We are not extremists," he says, sipping espresso at a conference table. "We practice our beliefs and have respect for the state. We want one thing from Europe and France: that they are faithful to their values."
Indeed, Breze and the union have thrived under Western democracy. Just two decades after its creation, by two foreign students, the union dominates French Islam.
In the last elections for the Council of the Muslim Faith, Breze won control of a crucial post representing central France.
Breze's federation draws 30,000 people to its annual conference, and the crowd is increasingly vocal in challenging the political powers that be. At last year's convention, the interior minister was booed in the middle of his speech when he suggested that women must remove their head scarves for ID photos.
So what does Breze really want for Muslims in France? He and his group carefully calibrate their demands. They demonstrate against the ban on head scarves, for instance, but urge young women to respect the law as long as it is in effect. His federation is part of a broader umbrella group for all of Europe that is known for issuing decisions that help conservative Muslims function in a modern Western society by permitting, for instance, interest-bearing loans that would otherwise be banned under Islam and allowing the consumption of pork-based gelatin.
Push Breze on the most sensitive issues - does he seek an Islamic state in France, or the application of strict Islamic law and punishment - and he says no: "Perhaps they are valid in Saudi Arabia or Palestine, but they are not valid here."
To some critics, Breze is a "double talker" who says one thing in French and another in Arabic. To others, he is simply a shrewd strategist who understands the coming power of the fast-growing Muslim communities here.
For his part, Breze says his mission is to convey a simple message: "France must respect this population."
OK. Must his population respect France?
Posted by Robert at December 26, 2004 7:30 AM
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In six years, 3 of the largest cities in the Netherlands will be majority muslim.
What the hell are we going to do?
Posted by: Voltaire![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at December 26, 2004 8:25 AM
Robert Spencer,
Some days ago the AIVD (the Dutch intelligence) warned that the Netherlands will soon know Islamic enclaves where the Sharia is the main law (like some enclaves in France). Not only the AIVD warned about that, they also said that moderate Islamic organisations are not working hard enough to stop the radicalising of young Muslims. Therefore, Muslims in the Netherlands are radicalising rapidly with at least 10.000 radical Muslims. The AIVD said there are around 1.500 Mohammed Bouyeri’s in the Netherlands to strike against freedom and democracy.
Another important note from my country, is that the moderate Islamic broadcast unit the NMO is under attack by the more fundamentalistic CMO. Whereas the NMO tries to have a dialogue with non-Muslims, the CMO wants that Islamic broadcast units should only let imams to speak. The CMO claims to represent the Muslims in Netherlands and being the institution that communicates with the Dutch government. So, if the NMO disappears and the CMO will become the main Islamic broadcaster, that would mean Islamic television in the Netherlands will be fundamentalistic.
Greetings,
Nordthiad
Posted by: Nordthiad at December 26, 2004 8:46 AM
The root cause:
" Liberty, when it degenerates into licenciousness, begets confusion, and frequently ends in Tyranny or some woeful catastrophe..."-- George Washington, 1783.
Posted by: kentim at December 26, 2004 10:47 AM
What is happening there will happen here. It's only a matter of time. While our world is turning into a Sodom and Gomorrah, the Beast religion is growing- forcefully at a rapid growing pace. These are the signs of the times.
Posted by: Ummagumma at December 26, 2004 11:47 AM
I dislike the Dutch. They're "stuck up" ....elitist numnutses..always thinking they're so superior than the Flemish & Belgians.
They made a sport of laughing with the warnings of the Vlaams Blok/Belang.
Seemingly, they NEVER listened to what was being said, they did have big laughs. But they stopped laughing after Fortuyn and swung position with Van Gogh.
On several occasions there have been warnings concerning the demographic trend of Muslim Immigrants.
To topple what was posted above from the AIVD, I will point to professor Urbain Vermeulen.
There was an interview in a local newspaper, which I attempted to translate & send through to this site.
I've found an online transcript of the article (the sole online transcript I've found) in the original language (Flemish Dutch) :
http://www.polinco.net/forum/showpost.php?p=9541&postcount=1
By 2025 Brussels will become the biggest Maghrebcity outside the traditional Maghreb territory.
By 2030-40 an Islamic enclave could be formed, (thanks to mass immigrantion and demographic trends) running from N France to the Netherlands.
Europe is in danger, but most politicians arnt willing to open their eyes and acknowledge that because its entirelly opposite to what they've been proclaiming.
Those politicians are also a threat, as they politically thrive on the votes from those populations. Political opposition is immediatly demonised and branded with terms such as nazi's, Fascist and many more.
THE US itself is being a nice dhimmi and screwing over EUROPE with its continued pressure to force Turkey into the EU, on top of that the US is not assisting those political parties (openly or covertly) to stop the formation of Eurabia.
However it seems the US thinks it can survive on its own... I'm sure they'll reconsider when Eurabia is a fact ..unless they are willing to risk modern weapons technology falling into wrong hands (yes nukes, subs, carriers, planes, the entire works, dont you love demographic trends and their colonisation of Europe).
anyways...its going to be fun.
Posted by: Briggs at December 26, 2004 12:08 PM
Since the threat of Radical Islam or Islamofascism has been well documented for many years now, the question is: What are we to do about it? I think we are at a point (in the USA at least) where a majority of the population would be for deporting Islamofascists (and, of course, keeping out those who try to come in). What is a legal way to do this in a democratic society? I don't know.
In Christopher Caldwell’s recent Weekly Standard article about Islam in Holland, he wrote: “The weekly magazine Contrast took a poll showing that just under half of the Muslims in the Netherlands were in “complete sympathy” with the September 11 attacks.” So I conclude that the 50% should be deported out of Holland. You would, in effect, be deporting someone for their beliefs--which is a very difficult thing for people to accept in democratic society. But we are left with no choice, since these people are enemy sympathyizers.
It is one thing to be tolerant of different cultures, religions, etc.--and I am for that. But Radical Islam is sneaking in under the broad desire for toleration.
at December 26, 2004 12:30 PM
The slow Islamization of the United States will occur with the help of activist judges, apologists, and Islamists that are dictating to policy makers at all levels. It will be our own fault if we don't do something about it while we still can. This isn't rocket science.
Posted by: epg at December 26, 2004 12:34 PM
I doubt that Islam will succeed in taking over the US - for certain, the Americans will fight and win. In Europe however, the process of surrender is underway, led by France as one would expect. Holland is finished as the demographics are now established. The Dutch deserve their fate; their culture will be displaced and asphyxiated just like that of the Christians in the Lebanon.
Posted by: Allan@Aberdeen at December 26, 2004 1:50 PM
Allan@Aberdeen,
I agree so much with your judgement on the US/EU differencies concerning their attitudes towards the islamist plague and their prospects for the future that I myself, based on it alone, am already making plans to leave my country and go live in the States. It is my opinion that for us EU subjects it is passed the time of any endeavour of collective salvation (from dhimmitude). It is high time that the most judicious Europeans start thinking on their own individual deliverance and that of their families. Why do I think USA is a fortress? Because people over there have the right to own and even carry arms (at least in some States) and if the worse comes to worst the people will not allow their government to sell them out in the name of obsolete values, as we can see all of our governments are doing over here, with no last-resort devices to protect ourselves against the prevailing treachery.
Posted by: Cid Campeador at December 26, 2004 2:36 PM
"The French are scared," said Tair Abdelkader, 38, a regular at the tented mosque whose light blue eyes and ebony beard are the legacy of a French mother and Algerian father. "In 10 years, the Muslim community will be stronger and stronger, and French political culture must accept that."
Does anymore need to be said? I pity those who live in these societies, who are governed by selfish, F*cking sheep who have the fake smile of understanding on their faces but really only care about remaining in office. These pawns are slowly steering their own native populations into oblivion. If we are not careful that will happen here too with all of America's PC Lefty's bending over backwards to appease and capitulate for the Muslim vote.
Posted by: Kemaste at December 26, 2004 2:39 PM
The demographic dynamics in the US are very different than Europe. While Europe is being flooded with Islamic immigrants, the US is experiencing a tsunami of Christian Hispanic immigrants from Mexico and Central America. By 2050 Europe will be an Islamic empire but the US will still be overwhelmingly Christian. The Hispanic component alone will be 25% and the European (white, non-Hispanic) descendents will be about 50%. Blacks will be 14% and Asians will comprise 8%.
When the Louvre and Rijksmuseum are in flames, women are stoned in Place de la Concorde, children hanged in stadiums no longer used for football or rugby, and Notre Dame is "finished" with a golden dome with its twin minarets, Lady Liberty in New York harbour will be welcoming the refugees from one of the greatest catastrophes in human history. The global conflagration will be in full swing and a new generation of heroes will be inspired by the likes of Sgt. Rafael Peralta, USMC.
Posted by: Hulegu Khan at December 26, 2004 2:43 PM
Don't you just love the arrogance of these DEATH CULT DEVOTEES! Every country MUST respect them and YIELD to their DEMANDS!! Yet they have NO respect for the West, apart from milking every welfare benefit they can obtain and using its Liberalism to promote this same DEATH CULT. France and Holland are in Deep Sh*t already. Even if ALL MUSLIM EMIGRATION was stopped now the numbers of these Parasites and Jihadists cannot stop what is happening in Europe - the overthrow of Christian Civilization. Like Lemmings, they invite Turkey in with potential of 70 Million more Jihadists not to mention a large army...
EUROPE IS DOOMED!!
at December 26, 2004 3:57 PM
I'm glad I moved to the USA !!!
Posted by: ReligionOfPeaceMyArse at December 26, 2004 4:56 PM
The Dutch have only themselves to blame. They are now reaping what they sowed. Like all the rest of us.
Can the Dutch fight back. Unfortunately not, as polls indicate that the Dutch would rather die then do what is necessary to save their liberal society.
Thus the Dutch, like in WWII, are hoping that some one else, an outsider, will save them from the catastrophe that is now inevitable. This way the 'outsider' would do the dirty job that requires doing, thus preserving the tender consciences of the Dutch.
I'm afraid they are in for a disappointment.
at December 26, 2004 5:27 PM
If we come out of this war with our civilisation intact, Slobodan Milosovitch will probably be regarded as the first martyr in this war.
I wonder of the Dutch are having any further thoughts on Milosovitch?
at December 26, 2004 5:32 PM
Instead of putting down the Dutch, let's concentrate on what we are going to do.
We must fight this. How is what we should be discussing, rather than dumping on the Dutch.
Posted by: Voltaire at December 26, 2004 6:16 PM
I am in complete agreement with Voltaire. There will be time enough to analyze how this all happened after the guns are silent. Our best defense is the same that our ancestors used: knowledge. We must first instruct ourselves and then our institutions in the truth of the Islamic ideology in all spheres that it encompasses. Its true identity as the "Religion of War" must be revealed in full. We must educate ourselves using their own canon: Koran, Sira, and hadiths. We must grok and wholly embrace the identity of dar al-Harb. If necessary, we will show them the Face of Shiva.
Posted by: Hulegu Khan at December 26, 2004 6:46 PM
Voltaire, quite right. What can we do, that is the question.
1. Ban Islam is one way, but politically impossible at this time.
2. Expulsion of muslims from the West, followed by no muslim immigration whatsoever. Hugh has advocated this, I believe. Again unlikely to happen and for the same reasons.
3. Exchange of populations, as I have advocated. Politically more possible then expulsion, but again impossible in the current phase of the war.
4. This leaves us with no choice except to pursue what we are doing now. Continue with the war in the ME and any other muslim nation that we can extend it to, while at the same time arresting and deporting jihadis from the West.
This may not seem much, but given the nature of islam, it will have to react with increasing violence, to the war we are waging in dar ul islam and stopping the jihadis in the West. They have no alternative but to respond violently, as their own beliefs give them no other choice. This reaction then gives us the reasons to expand our activities even further in the ME and at home. You know the old 'cycle of violence' theory will actually and hopefully come true. The war will continue to be ratcheted up, till the time comes when options 1,2 and 3 become politically possible.
This is the most optimistic scenario that I can envision, at this moment in time.
As to what we can do. Not much, except to spread the message about the vile nature of islam. Far too many of us still believe that islam is like any other religion.
Also make muslims as uncomfortable in the West as non-muslims are made to feel in islamic nations ie., treat them as our dhimmis. That should give them a thought or two.
Do you have any suggestions?
at December 26, 2004 7:00 PM
Hulegu Khan
Right on the heels of your comment about educating the public about the vile nature of islam, comes this piece from the Chicago Tribune
The Tribune reported the series, which ended this month, to answer some simple questions posed by readers in the wake of Sept. 11: Why are people from faraway lands attacking America and Americans? Why do they happen to be Muslims? Is there something about Islam that promotes violence?Reporters found little to suggest that Islam encourages violence, despite the impression Westerners might have because of exposure mostly to extremists. In fact, its venerable history suggests that Islam, like most religions, promotes peace and charity.
Via
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
It is going to be an uphill job all the way.
Posted by: DP111 at December 26, 2004 7:12 PM
G'night all. Will catch up posts tomorrow.
I hope all of you had a peaceful and Happy Christmas.
Posted by: DP111 at December 26, 2004 7:15 PM
If any of you are in Vancouver, Canada lease contact susan_b if you'd like to meet for coffee.
Posted by: sonofwalker at December 26, 2004 8:38 PM
Cid Campeador wrote:
'Why do I think USA is a fortress? Because people over there have the right to own and even carry arms (at least in some States)...'
I agree, the right to bear arms is a major difference.
In contrast, the average European is normally prohibited from owning a gun. However, in the rural areas of countries like France, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Russia, and the Eastern European nations, there is a long established country tradition of hunting game with rifles and shotguns.
I would never advocate violence, of course, but it would seem a sensible precaution for Europeans - even 'townies' - to start taking a serious interest in weekend hunting, and maybe making friends with a few sympathetic farmers and gamekeepers. A healthy vigorous outdoor pursuit with plenty of fresh air, hunting can only bring benefits for longterm health.
The exception is probably Briton where the gun laws are now so draconian that even owning a pea-shooter probably gets you a life sentence.
Posted by: Benelux at December 26, 2004 8:55 PM
typo: Briton = Britain
Posted by: Benelux at December 26, 2004 8:58 PM
Benelux, good idea.
Get involved with the hunting, shooting and fishing crowd. Get a rifle and learn how to shoot.
If police or any authorities are interested, say that you've taken up a new sport, shooting, which requires that you own a gun.
At least you'll be ready when you need to be.
Posted by: Voltaire at December 26, 2004 9:46 PM
DP111
We can vote for those parties who are anti-muslim immigration. Parties like UKIP, yes and even the BNP in Britain; the FN in France, and Vlaams Blang (formerly Blok) in Belgium.
Don't wait until election time. Join those parties NOW and influence them to try to restrict muslim immigration.
Get them to stop any other racist stuff that they believe in, like being anti-black, and just get them to concentrate on the threat of Islam to the west.
That is one thing that everyone in Europe can do now.
If there is no anti-immigration party in your country, then start one up.
Posted by: Voltaire at December 26, 2004 9:53 PM
One other thing: those people who have a camcorder, if you can, go into one of those no-go areas in France, and film what you see there.
Or: buy one of those tiny spy cameras, and film what goes on there.
Show it to the world, give it to a major network or show it on the internet, or at Jihadwatch.
Show the number of women wearing burkas, show the violence. Make people realise that this could be our fate.
Posted by: Voltaire at December 26, 2004 9:59 PM
Never say Die
Most of our grandparents fought and died fighting against fascism to give us the right to live our lives as we choose, do we throw that all away? During WW2 people were handing in their kitchen pots and pans to make weapons for the Allies in the UK. Think D day.
I think we are in a state of shock as we read the articles presented and see Islam gain strength week by week in ALL our home countries.
Lately some posts have been concerned about who is right or wrong in the west.
The fact is we are a diverse culture, we only need to recognise the strength of a multi skilled west to use it.
The PC agenda, conservatism, over educated atheists, fundamental Christians and childless career executives etc are tools for us to fight this oppression. Team us all together and we begin to build a multi skilled task force.
The diversity of the West is what makes it capable of reviving its religion, philosophical education and general decency. It can slam a PC styled law suite on Islam for discrimination. It can have more babies and it can make good use of the over skilled childless adults.
The “selfish childless adults” have often luxuriated in education and careers. They are asset to us. Their expertise in professional protesting, finances, law, arts or advertising etc can only help revive the “fundamental Christians” who are the history, tradition and broad ethics of our social structure. The lobbyists can lobby for Western and Eastern Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, Hindus we are all oppressed. Together we are a huge force.
Voltaire is correct, don’t be passive and lazy, to give up on Holland is an act of dhimmitude and you yourself are lost. My ancestors are Dutch, German and Scott and I am Australian, I will never give up. The battle is far from lost.
This is a large worldwide organization to enable people to meet up physically and form groups.
Look up your town and see if there is a meet up club against oppression if not start one. Anti Immigration or Rights for the Oppressed, what ever your take, all roads lead to Rome here.
Buy only Western products and encourage your friends to do so.
Speak to people about this issue, don’t speak hatefully, instead be concerned, well spoken and informed.
Write to politicians and media asking for debate and reform.
Don’t alienate your allies. United we stand divided we fall.
ALL our democratic rights to exist are under threat. All our stands and skills are useful. Identify your capabilities and respect those of your allies.
at December 27, 2004 12:06 AM
Meredith:
I think that the saving grace in all of this is that the jihadists came "out of the closet" too soon. They should have waited until they had access to a nuclear weapons stockpile and missile delivery systems that could reach at least western Europe before they declared war on the west.
Since 9/11, there is a growing number of westerners that have caught on to the threat of Islamo-fascism. Unlike Western Europe, the Islamists don't have the numbers or infrastructure in the United States to be a huge political force or to gradually take over through demographics. Then again, its likely that Jihad against the west will come to a head in Europe long before demographics become an issue.
With the attacks on Spain and the more recent murder of Theo Van Gough in the Netherlands, even Europeans are starting to wake up to the threat and realize that ignoring or appeasing these zealots is fruitless. It is also dawning on the average European that there is a disconnect between reality and what their governments and media are telling them about Islam.
The Dutch reaction to the Van Gough murder is a hopeful sign for the future of Europe (and the U.S.); however, it will probably take a string of 9/11-type attacks IN EUROPE to fully wake up the masses from their long multicultural slumber. Apart from the attacks in Spain, Europe has also had several near misses since 9/11, so its likely that more attacks of this nature will eventually succeed.
at December 27, 2004 1:20 AM
Dear DP111 and Meredith: Very good post!
Europe is in danger but we Europeans are not innocent of this, since we are still caught in cold war thinking and petty neighbour quarrels.
Only yesterday Holland allowed the Hague "Tribunal" to be established on its soil and already today Dutch people have to accept ritual murders of their own people in their own country.
(You see, the Western media gave Muslims living in Bosnia and Kosovo branded names ("Bosnians" and "Kosovars") and proclaimed them as righful owners of the Serbian ancestral lands and portrayed at the same time Serbs as occupators of foreign soil. This way, NATO intervention on behalf of Muslims appeared as national liberation. Sad enough, but Milosevic contributed to this process by preventing unified action of Serbs in early 90s, when it could have been successful. This communist aparatschik never was a defender of Serbs, or a nationalist, - he was defending the socialist idea and the charges against him are lies ).
The prime reason for tension in Kosovo was and still is the explosive growth of the Albanian population. The Yugoslav Federation invested a lot in the region and gave it an extensive cultural and political autonomy, - this only helped Muslim appetities to grow faster.
May I add couple of suggestions to your list:
1. Solidarize with Serbs. Do not allow your respective governments to solve the Kosovo problem by allowing the creation of Great Albania.
2.The same applies to Bosnia: do not allow your governments to create centralized Bosnia, where the Muslim government in Sarajevo has the say.
3. Solidarize with Israel instead of further growing Anitisemitism throughout EU and being hysterically obsessed with "Palestinian nation" (also a construct, I never found anything like "Palestinian nation" in any history book).
Destruction of Serbia and Israel will not satisfy Muslim appetites, it will only make them bigger. If EU will continue to sacrifice freedom and liberty in order to buy security it will loose both.
Hope you all had nice Christmas.
Your Serbian girl
at December 27, 2004 5:06 AM
Dear DP111 and Meredith: Very good post!
Europe is in danger but we Europeans are not innocent of this, since we are still caught in cold war thinking and petty neighbour quarrels.
Only yesterday Holland allowed the Hague "Tribunal" to be established on its soil and already today Dutch people have to accept ritual murders of their own people in their own country.
(You see, the Western media gave Muslims living in Bosnia and Kosovo branded names ("Bosnians" and "Kosovars") and proclaimed them as righful owners of the Serbian ancestral lands and portrayed at the same time Serbs as occupators of foreign soil. This way, NATO intervention on behalf of Muslims appeared as national liberation. Sad enough, but Milosevic contributed to this process by preventing unified action of Serbs in early 90s, when it could have been successful. This communist aparatschik never was a defender of Serbs, or a nationalist, - he was defending the socialist idea and the charges against him are lies ).
The prime reason for tension in Kosovo was and still is the explosive growth of the Albanian population. The Yugoslav Federation invested a lot in the region and gave it an extensive cultural and political autonomy, - this only helped Muslim appetities to grow faster.
May I add couple of suggestions to your list:
1. Solidarize with Serbs. Do not allow your respective governments to solve the Kosovo problem by allowing the creation of Great Albania.
2.The same applies to Bosnia: do not allow your governments to create centralized Bosnia, where the Muslim government in Sarajevo has the say.
3. Solidarize with Israel instead of further growing Anitisemitism throughout EU and being hysterically obsessed with "Palestinian nation" (also a construct, I never found anything like "Palestinian nation" in any history book).
Destruction of Serbia and Israel will not satisfy Muslim appetites, it will only make them bigger. If EU will continue to sacrifice freedom and liberty in order to buy security it will loose both.
Hope you all had nice Christmas.
Your Serbian girl
at December 27, 2004 5:13 AM
Sparrow :
In some countries there's a majority to deport foreign criminals. But the minute you speak out or refer to the term deport you're automatically slandered by the political correct thinking left ..the N-word (hint: Germany, ww2).
Allen@Aberdeen :
Its exactly that attitude that is apalling.
the process of surrender is not underway, dhimmitude is common among the political correct thinking high society. But what you seem to be unable to grasp is that there still are the common people.
The commons are divided in those that are aware and the unaware. Those that are aware are preparing for eventualities and are starting to shift their electoral power to the right.
Holland is not finished, so is Flanders, N France and other regions thanks to demography. But quantity doesnt mean one rules. During WW2 a german general asked a Swiss general : what are you going to do, with out enormous military power, we could invade and conquer you in no time with twice the force that you can bolster. The Swiss general simply answered : Then our troops will solely have to shoot twice more often to compensate for the numerical superiority.
Their fate is not deserved, neither is their fate finalised; there still are 25 years up ahead, thats a total of 6 elections (the least).
Cid Campeador :
Guessing from your nick, yer in Spain huh ?
You can own guns in Europe :) besides that there still is the black market to get guns.
At least I'm going to stand on my grounds. Let them come and I will chop off their heads if I must.
All you need to do is preparing for warfare. I have a combat readyness pack, the sole thing I'm missing are maps, firearms,.. .
DP111 :
They can always fight back. Outsider ? The Dutch were defeate, like much of the rest of Europe.
Who colonised N America ? Where do you think white fellas that live in the US come from , Africa, Asia ?
People, Do not forget your roots !
Benelux :
All it required in "Belgium" is a neighbourhood inquiry by the police for approval of the license and then you can buy a gun, get training and do a practical test after a year.
Too bad you cant hunt with a FN FAL....and Hunting rifles.although usable...are not quite made for warfare.
Serbian Girl :
Ofc Europe is not innocent. But with regards to Kosovo.....who bullied its way around in NATO for action ? Was it EU or the US , who needed to save Europe from a conflict ?
Furthermore to the Americans, instead of b*tching abt Europe loosing, perhaps your administration should STOP supporting TURKEY's ENTRANCE into the EUROPEAN UNION.
Get off yer asses and go march.
Its time to get jiggy politically or fail, Europe needs the US and the US needs Europe wether you like it or not.
For Europeans its simple : Get a gun license, go hunting, follow First aid courses (Red Cross or military (they do them too in some countries), get out into the woods often, buy a couple of books on warfare (pre-training and stuff). Physically shape up, learn your region, go play soldier in the woods : learn how to set up a base camp and mobility scenario's. Form a group, dont become a militia openly.
Posted by: Briggs at December 27, 2004 6:53 AM
Just as US/UK forces are strengthened by NOT having French troops at our side, so the West will be strengthened by witnessing the scouring of Holland by Islam. I will repeat what I stated earlier; the Dutch deserve their fate - they chose to dope themselves up to the eyeballs whilst they brought fast-breeding Islamo-fascists into their midst. British troops died in their thousands to liberate them from the Nazis and for what? For them to lie down to Islam?
The Dutch are now leaving Holland for Australia, US and other Anglo-Saxon countries. Let us pray that they leave their 'liberal' beliefs at home.
at December 27, 2004 7:19 AM
Wise old fool,
I hope you are right, that it is too early, by the way did anyone ever find those nukes that went missing from Georgia… http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1859560.stm and then how does an army search every cave in the middle east? But yes as an army they are not on par with the USA or capable of the heights of the Allies of WW2.
Their methods however suit their resources and skills, the effect of terrorism is shockingly brutal at first, but then long-term it is also subtle, a gradual wearing down of the targets moral, into a weary apathy. Indifference, how many times can we be shocked and disgusted with out sounding like cracked records? Much like the complaints about violence on TV, terrorism slowly teaches us it itself is normal. So I doubt another 9/11, or 2, will raise enough fire to get Westerners fighting.
Team this up with the gradual indoctrination to Sharia law into the rich soil of the political correct riddled West as seen in Europe, UK and Australia and the bid for the West is well underway.
Political dhimmitude, why the hell did they let Turkey into the EU? Any ideas? I can only hope it is to stall it in red tape for 10 years while its terms are negotiated. Whatever the reason our disgust at the concept of it should be loud.
So many suggestions from all of us, I do believe we have amazing resources as I mentioned in my earlier post, it is all I can think of for now, and yes I think we can still some how win, even if we are written up in history as the persecutors of a people so be it.
Don’t give up on Holland, don’t give up on anything Western ever!!! Make their lives in our countries HELL!!
Cheers
at December 27, 2004 7:56 AM
Allen@Aberdeen
Perhaps you are in need of a history lesson.
Last time I checked neither the UK or the US won ww2 on their own or solely together.
Perhaps you have been disabled from good eyes, as the DUTCH are not bending down to Islamofascists.
Its Dutch politicians, who gain from their votes and who believe in an idiotic ideology , who have blinded the ppl. The recent attacks have opened the eyes of the population, who are starting to make a stand. What you seemingly are unaware off is that political parties who have been warning the population have been smutthered in insults.
On top of that : You think the UK is any better ?
Last time I've been to London I've seen plenty of Islamic immigrants. Either you're blind-staring at the Dutch or you're unaware of the mass-immigration into the UK which is also being a threat to yourselfs with the British goverment basically bending over. I havnt seen much heavy efforts of the British goverment to send illegal immigrants back. They've made plenty attempts to prevent some to get across the channel, but thats it.
Furthermore perhaps you ought to reread history, instead of lashing at the French. They were the first to defeat Islamic Forces (725 Battle of Tours, 732 ...). Additionally...didnt the UK initially support Wahabism, which is now fueling the Islamofacists ?
Stop bloody ranting and get ready to defend the continent and your home ground.
at December 27, 2004 1:25 PM
Meredith :
Turkey is not in the European Union, yet.
They have to spend at least 60 million euro's to get in line with the ecological aspects of the EU.
The reason why Turkey is being admitted for negotiations are numerous :
A) US backing, which has power in the new Eastern European Members.
B) Turkey is economically an interesting target.
C) Turkey fits into the multicultural society (somehow)
D) Turkey holds Greek/European grounds (Istanbul, N Cyprus...)
E) Plenty of Turkish immigrants in the EU...who do you think they'll vote for ..politicians that want Turkey in or out ?
Make their lives in our countries living hell...and get thrown in jail on accounts of racism/stalking etc etc etc.
I rather prepare and lay low untill its time to charge.
Articles such as this one :
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004307.php
are a joke. Europe Intolerant... and its all Europe's fault. Perhaps the intolerance is brewed by others and perhaps those "extremists" are not entirely extremists. It sounds exactly like what they're talking and warning about themselves :
"For too long mainstream European political parties labelled as racists those clamoring for restricted immigration or aggressive integrationist policies."
As far as I'm concerned there are solely 2 dangerous parties with "nazi"-like tendencies in "Belgium" : Front Nationale/Rexists and Groen Rechts (the latter advocating etnic purity).
Both parties with meaningless electoral succes.
(7% in Wallonia for the FN, and 0.5% in Flanders or so for GroenRechts).
at December 27, 2004 1:43 PM
The limosine liberals have such a low regard for the average person in our culture that they would rather see the death of our civilization than agree with those "below" them. Who is below them? Well, that would be anybody who does not agree with their cliche ridden view of the world as it should be. Their view of the world see's the purpatrators of 9/11 being caught, tried, and given a stiff prison sentence. That will settle the matter, and we won't alienate the peace loving Muslims of the world.
The limosine liberals are the people who make the movies our children see and come to believe is reality. State the facts, and you are some sort of right wing nut.
We are in a culture where those who actually attacked us immediately screamed that they were the victims. Tell me, how many Muslims have been killed in America since 9/11? At the same time, the same people tell us, they dream of the day we will be living under Sharia. If living in an Islamic culture is so great, what are you doing here?
Set the alarm clock and start perculating the coffee, my friends, it is time our neighbors woke up and started to smell it.
at December 27, 2004 4:27 PM
Hi Briggs,
My history is good, especially the modern era. The Dutch have not covered themselves in glory recently and I doubt that they will take up the struggle (I'd be delighted if they did) - Flanders with the Vlaams Belang as a majority amongst Dutch speakers is a much better bet for the first serious resistance to the Islamic menace. The problem in Europe is that the political establishment is preventing any real analysis of Islam in a similar manner to the silencing of critics of Nazism in the 1930's. In both cases, the program had already been written for review (the Koran and Mein Kampf) by anyone who cared to read it. Islam is a "religion of peace" say our political masters in Europe so, for any real action, this establishment must first be overthrown by the peoples of Europe. At each chance to protest (Le Pen in France and Fortuyn in Holland, the establishment holds. easily.
at December 27, 2004 5:39 PM
Rislander :
It isnt stricly limosine Liberals....its basically everyone with his head stuck deeply into the power-greed-money-arse.
--------------
Allan@aberdeen
Then you're well aware that neither the UK nor the US have single-handedly won WW2.
You'd also know that the Dutch put up a good fight, in Europe as well as in Asia.
The problems with the Dutch were that they're stuck up, they viewed themselves superior. They have been warned for many years by the Flemish but they just laughed it off.
What has been happening in the past 3 years has drastically changed their society and their process of thinking.
What you could call resistance, is growing.
The Establishment can remain blind, as long as it wants, its the people who need to wake up.
The establishment is a minority, the problem is that there's not a pan-european community to support "resistance".
Overthrowing the establishment is one powerstrategy, destroying their credibility is a better one.
They have to be disregarded, ignored as a matter of fact.
Yet, that will need the formation of an organisation, across borders which cannot be slandered to such an extent it looses its own credibility. It ought to seek political support with some parties whom are regarded as extremist but in a covert manner, while on the other hand experts are needed to slam the appeasement program (portraying Islam as peacefull). The latter requires Islamologists, Historians, political & cultural thinkers and ppl who know their way around the press. Additionally, people with financial assets are required.
questions do appear :
Is there an American organisation that can be called upon for assistance in forming this pan-European counter-organisation ?
What type of structure is needed ?
Where are posts positioned for that sort of organisation ?
Where are the financial resources ?
Its an idea I've been toying with.
A new stand-alone organisation will cost dearly.
If you construct on existing organisations & groups, then on who and how are we going to balance it ?
It requires a radical repositionement from the so-called current European Nation-States to True Nations (Stately or Stateless).
First thought that pops up around that corner for the UK are Wales & Scotland & England with the rather...troublesome N-Irish problem.
Think about it for a while, like a chicken sits on its egg. I've got exams untill the 31st of January, (I check this site on a daily basis.) so replies could be slow & short.
Posted by: Briggs at December 28, 2004 11:16 AM
Briggs,
You mean an NGO to combat Islamofascism. To present the other side--actions that can be taken. There are many talented folks out there who could participate.
at December 28, 2004 4:39 PM
Ofcourse an NGO....unless you think there's a single European goverment willing to create such an organisation.
Islamofascism...whatever you'd like to call it.
Personally, as far I'm concerned, Islam doesnt quite co-incide with Western values & morals.
Whatever it must do, the least it has to do is prevent the formation of Eurabia and prevent the formation of a viable Islamic culture which is not aligned with Western morals & values inside Europe.
at December 29, 2004 1:18 PM
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