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January 2, 2005

Saudi man with 58 wives stirs polygamy debate

Women-under-Sharia-as-commodities update, from AP, with thanks to Nicolei and Twostellas:

USFAN, Saudi Arabia (AP) — In 50 years, he says, he has married 58 women and has forgotten the names of most of them. He knows he has had 10 sons, but ask about daughters and he counts on his fingers: 22. No, no, 28. No, that's too many. He settles on 25. Saleh al-Sayeri, a 64-year-old shepherd-turned-businessman, says his marital adventures have cost him more than $1.6 million in wedding expenses and settlements for divorced wives. But the man who remembers being forced into his first marriage at age 14 says he'd do it a million times over.

"Marriage doesn't bore me," he said, relaxing on cushions at a carpeted, open-air reception area in his 22-horse stable in Usfan, in the desert 500 miles west of Riyadh. "I'm the happiest man in the world."

Al-Sayeri's story might seem a bizarre curiosity, but it touches a nerve in Saudi Arabia, the status of whose women is a matter of international controversy.

When it surfaced in Saudi media in March, some readers reacted angrily.

A woman who identified herself as Maryam, a convert to Islam, wrote to the Arab News, an English-language daily, that al-Sayeri's story "really sent me over the edge."

"What kind of a family structure is this? What is divorce doing to the psychologies of the ex-wives and children? How can this man devote any quality time to his children — teaching them about Islam and being a constant role model?" She wrote.

It would seem that he has taught them plenty about Islam as it is. Nothing he has done has violated Islamic law.

Sayyidaty magazine, which interviewed al-Sayeri, also spoke to psychiatrist Mona al-Sawwaf who said al-Sayeri does not treat a wife as a human being "but as a piece of clothing he can change whenever he pleases or an object."

"The biggest blame lies with the parents" who let their daughters enter such marriages, she said.

Al-Sayeri dismisses such critics as "crazy," insisting he is not breaching Islamic laws, which permit a man to have four wives at a time.

"I have a clear conscience," he said.

None of Al-Sayeri's ex-wives could be reached. He said many have remarried, but to reveal their identity would be a gross violation of Saudi custom. One of his sons said his mother has remarried, but refused to give details.

Posted by Robert at January 2, 2005 7:27 AM
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Islam Past and Present – Essential Reading

The young Mohammed was born in Arabia - to a prominent merchant family who had a special religious responsibility. The family was called the Quraish as they were the keepers of the Ka’aba or religious shrine at Mecca.

[Ka’aba]: the black stone structure - in all the pictures of Mecca which the people appear to bow down and worship. Now - one of the Holiest places for any Muslim – before was a place to sacrifice animals in honor of ‘Any God’. The many varied worshipers came to Mecca to visit the Ka’aba for centuries before Islam - in a pilgrimage known as the Hajj.

In Mohammed’s younger years life at the Ka’aba was very different. It was possible to worship Any God at this Holy Centre of Mecca. Mohammed’s own family – did not believe in One God – but in a God system. At the time it was common for the various Arab groups or tribes to make war against each other – and so Mecca was designated as a peaceful centre and a place of worship among the nomadic peoples. [The advent of Islam meant that for the first time - the Arabs made more money from taxes than from booty – they were largely bandits it seems and preyed on those who came to trade.] But in a peaceful Mecca it was possible for traders and their families to freely worship the many Gods and Goddesses, which were popular at the time - at the Holy Shrine or Ka’aba.

Mohammed’s Gods

Mohammed’s family worshiped a God system or pantheon – which had a God named Allah as its head – but unlike present day Allah – this Allah had 3 daughters – who were called the Trinity Desert Goddesses. [Allah’s daughters]: were named Allat, Manat and Al-Uzza. (See Encyclopedia Britannica vol.22 pg105 or Koran Sura 53:19-20). These were all highly respected Goddesses and were worshiped widely for possibly a millennium and for many years after the advent of Islam.

Allah – http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/allah.html

Allat – http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/allat.html

http://www3.sympatico.ca/chartreuse/AvatarsOfTheGoddess/ArabicIslam.htm

Enter the Syrians

Besides the Arabs – the Syrians had also fallen in love with Allah’s daughter – Allat or Al-Latu. These Syrians of old got around – they were the Phoenician seafarers who traded with most of the Mediterranean and when they traveled they took their favorite God Al-lat with them. They set up Temples dedicated to Al-lat in Sardinia, Rome, Spain, and Greece. Al-lat was so popular and so beloved, that her name was simply ‘The Goddesses’. Her name also changed, depending on the area which she was worshiped. In Rome she was Latona – in Greece she was Leto – yes! – Mother of the Sun God Apollo. She was even called Allatum, Lat, Elat and Militta by some accounts. Her Cult dated back to Carthage – whose people were also from the present day Syrian area. Temples dedicated to Allat would have no doubt appeared in North Africa.

Allat was a Moon or Dawn Goddess and in the front of her Temple was a statute of a Lion with an Antelope between its front paws.

Back To Mohammed

When it came to the Gods – things were a lot more relaxed back then. You could choose the God you liked and could believe in that one, but you were not limited to the worship of one God. The change over to the One God system, appears to occur after Mohammed marries a much older wealthy Jewish merchant women and – as we are told – he had a vision or a series of revelations from the Jewish Angel Gabriel.

Big Question – Why would Mohammed have a Jewish Revelation? You get the idea that his Jewish wife had influenced the young Mohammed’s religious beliefs - somehow. And let’s not forget that most of the people of this time would have had the freedom to worship any God - Jewish God today and Allah and his Three Daughters tomorrow.

But for Mohammed’s beloved Gods – the climate for the Multi-God System was changing. The Jews had long established the ‘One God’ belief and Christianity - which also promoted a One God - was as a religion 500 – 600 years in the making – by then.

Rather then give in and become Jewish - like his wife Khadija – or Christian as in Rome and many areas of the Roman Empire – Mohammed decides to make his favorite God ‘Allah’ into the ‘Only God’ and he achieves this by eliminating the Lesser Gods from the system. Mohammed simply got rid of the Three Daughters of Allah. Leaving him with a One God system, which was by now probably - more fashionable to believe in.

The religion was renamed Al-Salaam – kind of like our Salutation, the Indian Salaam or the Jewish Shalom, which means Peace or Greetings. Prior to this the religion was called Ka’aba [see above] before its name changed to the shortened version of Islam.

So the process of creating Islam - was a cleaning up or a reforming of an Ancient Multi God System. It was the peeling away of the superfluous Gods to leave the One God – and the Only God / which is strictly held by Muslims today - Allah.

[I used to wonder why they would say ‘There is only One God but Allah’ it seemed like the phrase was there to fight against something – rather than an acknowledgement that there is only One God – it seemed more of a defensive phrase – something you would say from a loosing side – or as an insecurity about something. I milled over the idea that it was the Christian belief in the Trinity – Father/Son/Holy Ghost – that might cause them to produce such a statement – but as such a pronounced statement, it did not seem to fit. Now it has become obvious that the object of this phrase ‘One God but Allah’ goes far deeper – to reflect Islam’s own history - and it is a phrase which acts as an excising or an excommunication – not of Demons – but of former Gods which it once believed in itself.]

The Removal of All Idols ?

Over the next few centuries Islam morphed into what it is today – and one of the ways which it does this, is to cleanse itself of all idolatrous images – accept one – the Moon. The Moon was important – as a method of telling the time and identifying the seasons back then – but the Sun would have also played a significant role. To keep the moon as the only symbol of Islam – must have meant more to the early Muslims – than as a large time piece – with Allah’s own daughter – a known Moon Goddess and many of the higher Gods and Goddesses from Greece to Persia – divided up into Moon and Sun Gods – from the time of the Queen of Sheba and earlier – it is very likely that the reason the early Muslims kept the Moon as the only Symbol for Islam - was that they felt comfortable with the idea of the Moon in association with the God Allah. These early Muslims had to have accepted Allah and the Moon as One.

Those Syrians - Again

The Syrians – having already been so in love with Allah’s daughter Allat – took to Allah - The Father – like a fish to water. But the Arab or Bedouin societies were mainly nomadic – they had not undergone the type of cultural development – which the Syrians had over the centuries – having been taken over by historical characters such as Alexander the Great, and being at the crossroads of much of the history of the Near and Middle East. The Syrians knowing the value of the new One God system – killed Mohammed’s First Cousin/Brother In-Law and took over as the Center of Islam – being a modern country – and having a long established love and acceptance of the Allah God system – were key in establishing Islam as the religion it is today. The Roman and Persian Empires are just now losing their strength – so for more than religious reasons – the Syrians desired to take over the Med – to cast out Rome – and probably as their ancestors had with Carthage – thereby gaining back a former glory. They successfully took over the whole of North Africa and later with a NW African force gained control of Spain – Islam could have easily been only the secondary impetus – in what may have been an out and out grab for power.

Anger at the Byzantines

Jealousy of Roman Byzantium – drove the Syrians to try to eradicate all traces of the former conquers from history – and what better way to do this than by forcibly introducing their newly acquired One God religion and changing all coins to Arabic – which then became the dominant language in the subjugated areas of North Africa.

The Syrians than moved to formalize the Islamic religion - developing the 5 Pillars of Islam [??] and more shocking they rewrote the Koran so that it could be readable by the average person [Ency Britannica/Islam/bk22]. The Koran was written in an Old Arabic – with incoherent verse and you needed to be a scholar to simply make sense of the thrown together uncoordinated historical verse. We may never fully know exactly what the Syrians did for Islam. They already had a history of respecting the Jewish belief system and it is quite clear that they borrowed from its verse to produce the Koran. Perhaps the Syrians understood best of all – that this religion needed legitimacy. [Question: What were the beliefs of the Ancient Moon God Allah and His Three Daughters?]

A Knowledge Based Society

If you could see what the Syrian invaders had done in Spain all those years ago – you would have been amazed. Everyone could read – when Kings in other parts of Europe could not. The citizens lived in stone houses – with only a few people to a house – and these houses had heating systems under the floor. Here were some of the greatest libraries in Europe – drawing knowledge from Alexandria in Egypt, Athens, Babylon and Persia. And although a tax was levied on non-Muslims – Jews and Christians were allowed to practice their religion, with many Jews marrying into the Spanish aristocracy – and many of those who became Islamic doing so for reasons – of social status. It was simply a total contradiction to the way Islam looks today.

What Went Wrong?

The greatest period of development in Islamic history came when the religion was controlled by the Syrians. The Architecture, the Calligraphy associated with Islam was all developed under the Syrians – even the dreaded Islamic Law – was drawn from Persian and Greek Law.

What Islamic people forgot was that the knowledge they gained and the greatness they had – [and are now so quick to point out] – came from many sources. Everything that the Koran is – both good and bad – was drawn from the surroundings at the time – repeat – at the time. That was 1500 years ago or so.

Right or Wrong – Where are all the Brave Men?

One of the greatest down falls of Islam – is when its Centre is returned to the Arabs – to Arabia – to the Bedouins – to form Wa’ahabiism. It is here that Islam seems to start to draw everything – not from it surroundings – but from itself. This incestuous relationship with itself – has produced series mutants and a catalogue of deformities.

Instead of drawing from the Great Libraries and thinkers of the world – Islam now insists that it gets its science from itself – in an Islamic Science. Like Creationism – although it can be argued vigorously on ideological grounds – it can not produce a mobile phone.

Possibly the new idol is the Koran itself.

Islam’s members have to refer everything back – to the One Source – for verification. And sit frightened and cowering at anything new – or act violently against it. Instead of turning out armies of young people well studied in engineering and science ready to be astronauts of the future – instead their youth are highly stoked on religion – with its violent edge – ready to go – in a blaze of glory to the other heaven – killing and maiming people – knocking down buildings – to fulfill deep religious beliefs – in their suicide/martyrdom religious brigades or pacts.

Impact Islam - Debate Islam

While the moderates accuse the radicals of not practicing the true Islam – at least not one which they want to recognize – and the radicals threaten the moderates – frightening not only the women – but those brave men of Islam who see that reform is inevitable – into submission. Under an Islam that publicly – wishes to show one face – even in the face of violent deeds – wants to have the world say only the things which it wants to hear. Words – which sooth the bitter reality of a religion out of control – Islam is a good religion – Islam is not a threat – Islam is a religion of peace. That it may be true today – that it is only Islam that does not see itself – that as with the women in their societies – it is not allowed to look.

Maybe the Prophet Mohammed was right – when he is reported to have arrogantly stated – that Islam will only die when men walks on the Moon.

Oops! There is that Moon again.

Posted by: Pass It On [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 2, 2005 7:54 AM

It appears to me (though not a shrink) that this could be one of the very things that contributes to the deep urge in Muslim males to garner fatherly attention anywhere they can get it -- even in imams urging them to kill themselves for Allah.

Here you have a society where men can legally marry many women and father many children. Where is the time to truly bond and spend time with their sons as fathers should? Instead, father is spending time at the other families home. Since this is their (f*cked up) culture it is accepted. The sons are left yearning for a fathers attention and seek it out in different ways -- gangs or in this case mosque where they get the kind of attention and bonding they need.

It's so destructive to the family unit -- mostly the kids. But who would expect anything less from a culture dominated by prehistoric minded men who pare a vagina down to nothing because one left in its natural state is considered hideous.

Posted by: Kemaste [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 2, 2005 12:46 PM

Monogamy must be oficial and the unic possibility

Posted by: Franze [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 2, 2005 12:55 PM

It wouldn't work in England, imagine 58 Mothers-in-Law?

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 2, 2005 4:33 PM

When this chauvanist says his conscience his clear, make no mistake, he's not joking. His conscience is not only clear, it's completely absent altogether. You can't have a moral dilemma when you have no morals to begin with. The idea of marriage being the union of one man and one woman was the God of Israel's idea, not man's. Satan wants to destroy the family, hence abominations like gay marriage and polygamy. What a pathetic excuse of a 'man' he is. The only person he's ever loved is himself ("I love me. And I want you to love me the same way that I love me"). Sadly, much of this runaway egoism is rampant in the West as well, so let us not be so smug.

Posted by: R Dubya Bee [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 2, 2005 7:52 PM

If this type of thing goes on alot over there (and I assume it does) I have to wonder about the gene pool (or swamp as the case may be) over there...seems rather likely that sooner or later some guy is gonna end up with his half sister

Posted by: USAgirl [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 3, 2005 12:13 AM

Islam gives dirty old pervents an excuse to be dirty old perverts. They can be so while feeling so holy, righteous, so pious because they claim they are "married". It's obvious what this guy is doing - screwing as many women as he can. These "marriages" to the 4th wife are a sham. We can see through that. Just cast off the 4th wife once you tire of her, and want some fresh meat, some sweet young thing in your bed. Apparently his latest wife is 14 years old. Disgusting! He's a deviant.

This is why Islamic societies are so messed up, why their sons grow up with the rage, hatred and the lack of conscience required to commit mass murder. OBL's mother was one of these cast-offs. Look at what happened to him. I read Carmen Bin Laden's autobio about her life in SA. What a sick society. Their families are dysfunctional as you can get. Moh Atta was a similar case. And we heard about his requested funeral arrangements - a window into the mind of a bent psychopath. So, take the hatred and intolerance of the Koran that is drummed into their twisted minds, and their bizarre family lives where a woman is nothing and their fathers perverts - the results are no surprise.

Posted by: feralee [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 3, 2005 12:57 AM

This story ran last year in the Arab News. In the interview, al-Sayeri also said he played the wives against each other. The one who pleased him least would get the boot. The way I calculate it, each of the last 4 wives will inherit about 2% of his estate.

THis story also illustrates the difference between Western morality - no, that is not inclusive enough - between non-Muslim morality and Muslim morality. For most of us, our conduct is based on what is morally, ethically, or legally right or wrong. Muslim conduct is based on what is or is not permissible.

The sad part of this is that a lot of my Saudi coworkers are secretly envious.


Pass It On:

"What went wrong?
... What Islamic people forgot was that the knowledge they gained and the greatness they had – [and are now so quick to point out] – came from many sources."

Right. They ran out of people smarter than they were to conquer. The came the Renaissance and the Europeans pushed them back out of Europe.


USAgirl:

The Saudis have a small, shallow gene pool here, and it IS badly polluted.

Posted by: jay [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 3, 2005 10:31 AM

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