Fregosi raises the question, "Is Islam compatible with European humanist values?", and then says nothing about what is actually said in the Qur'an, hadith and sira.

Well, is Christianity compatible with Islam? Oh, but let's not talk about what the bible and the Qur'an say. Forget about these texts; we need to get over these 'oppositions', you know.

Posted by: JTF at January 2, 2005 5:17 PM

I strongly suspect that had this ass for brains been writing this type of trash 50 years ago his mantra then would have been "rather red than dead". What a spinless piece of human garbage.And btw,are there really that many brain deads in the msm that don't know what in the hell a metaphor is? When Dubwy used the term "crusade" he was using a metaphor.Why don't they get it?

Posted by: krkrjak at January 2, 2005 5:32 PM

I think that entire website which is attempting to develope itself as a European information exchange in 6 languages is an example of the reason why I am quickly becoming resigned to the fact that Europe will be converted within this century and they are just begging for it.

Europe If Allah Wills It:

http://www.cafebabel.com/en/dossier.asp?id=141

Posted by: Andrew at January 2, 2005 6:27 PM

A lot of Europeans - if not most of them - are living in cloudcuckooland and are totally bonkers. I'm compiling a list of reasons for leaving this continent and it's getting longer by the minute! Let's just hope that our American friends can keep up the fight against jihad. We need you, people!

Posted by: disillusionised_german at January 2, 2005 8:46 PM

Let's see how this would have read in 1936:

The question, indeed the challenge, is not so much one of adapting National Socialism to our European society but of adapting our society to National Socialism. Discriminatory attitudes against the Nazi community increase Nazi frustration and harden the resolve of certain groups who turn to radicalism. The challenge for us is to create a framework in which Nazis may be integrated into our society as fairly as possible. Most European states use public money to fund political groups yet Nazi groups very rarely actually receives such money. European mentalities and bureaucracies need to change. In Belgium, for example, Nazi groups cannot receive public funds because the authorities do not acknowledge them as representative bodies.

Is National Socialism compatible with European humanist values?

The concept of ‘values’ is a complex one. We need to ask ourselves what ‘values’ this question presumes. Christianity has long defined itself in opposition to National Socialism. Yet National Socialism and Nazi culture have deeply affected European history. The famous Nazi architecture in Nuremberg remains as a testament to this. At one stage three quarters of the German population were Nazi and parts of the Bavarian region still are. This area was at one time part of the Heiliges Römisches Reich deutscher Nationen, the “sick man of Europe” at the beginning of the 20th century. Today we need to look beyond this binary division of history and the systematic opposition of Nazi and Christian Europe. By this more comprehensive yardstick, Germany’s entry into the European Union is hardly outrageous. Its accession to the EU would simply represent for Nazis a slightly more important place for Geman National Socialism within Europe.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at January 2, 2005 8:53 PM

The famous Islamic architecture in Andalusia remains as a testament to this.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at January 2, 2005 9:36 PM

disillusionised_german,

My country (Canada) is not far behind Europe. People that think like this are truly puzzling. How can they be so blind?

I don't know about Europe, but I believe that in Canada, it is mostly a case of people not really being aware of what is going on and finding it too unbelievable when told about it.

The Islamic belief system is so totally foreign to most westerners, that they wrongly dismiss any supposed threats from it as impossible. If we don't wake up our fellow countrymen soon, we're going to go down the toilet.

I'm going into writing letters to harrass the politicians mode this month. Maybe I'll see if any of the news organizations are interested as well.

Posted by: Dana at January 2, 2005 10:22 PM

No it isn't.

Posted by: DCWatson at January 2, 2005 10:56 PM

Well, I've been trying to post some stuff on the forum of a German newspaper. I guess out of its readers about 80 percent come from a left wing background so there's little chance of convincing anyone there. What I have got so far were several comments which condemned me as "racist" and even my statement that I have a black girlfriend didn't help. Well, they didn't "let themselves down" onto an argumentative basis though but that's what I have come to expect - especially of the left in Germany.

I think we should post in forums of newspapers we know are conservative (like Die Welt in Germany or The Telegraph in the UK). Furthermore we need to write to (mainstream) politicians who are conservative and not too fond of islam and tell them about Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ibn Warraq, Bat Ye'or, Daniel Pipes and, of course, our friend Robert Spencer. Maybe it's going to help that Fox News is (or will be) available in Canada but even they (Fox News) haven't got the full message so far so we also need to write to them.

What helps our argument - I found - is what is going on in the islamic rebublic (or is that repulsive) of Iran... tell people about the stoning of young girls, show them pictures etc. Here's a quite useful link: http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/

Posted by: disillusionised_german at January 2, 2005 11:16 PM

Dana, I also live in Canada and I am very concerned about the islamic problem. I remember making suggestions on a radio talkshow in Calgary. One of them was a 5 year moratoriam halt on immigration from muslim countries, and to deport 9-11 sypathizers. Guess what? I was called the "R" word. I made the same suggestion to some liberal MPs and they too played the racist card on me.

It reminds me of William Shire. He was a Daniel Pipes in the 1930's warning America about the evils of Nazizm. He too was ignored by the majority of American people until the war broke out. What will it take to get our citizens to wake up of the growing threat of islam? Another large scale islamic terrorist attack?

Posted by: Ummagumma at January 3, 2005 12:21 AM

This guy sounds like a character Ayn Rand would create- a European bureacrat who is trying to sound intellectual, wants to throw taxpayer money at a special interest "religious" group (which is more like a cult), says values are relative (and probably believes only elite, leftist "intellectuals" should determine what they are), and is a complete coward. Does he think he's fooling anyone, trying to mask his cowardice and endorsement of appeasement?

Posted by: Megan at January 3, 2005 12:27 AM

Posted:
I think we should post in forums of newspapers we know are conservative (like Die Welt in Germany or The Telegraph in the UK).

disillusionised_german I tried that with two local newspapers in Calgary: The Calgary Herald and the Calgary Sun. They WOULD NOT print my letters to the editor. Good luck eh?

Posted by: Ummagumma at January 3, 2005 12:28 AM

This morning a dutch lady friend told me a young relative of hers had returned from phuket the day before.
Whne he saw the warning signs of the tide receding into the ocean, he yelled out " there is a tsuanami coming - you must get up and run to the back for your lives." The beach was full of germans , like the ones who will not listen to the warnings of the threats of Islam.
One middle age german replied "what is a tsunami?"
"a giant tidal wave" he told him.
the german retorted " don't be an idiot and just sit down".
A few minutes later the German was dead along with his sneering frends.

When I heard her story a chill run through my back as i realised exactly the same thing is happening in Europe but no one wants to hear about the european tsunami.

Posted by: george at January 3, 2005 1:08 AM

It's so sad that people like Franck feel so little pride in their own culture, society and country, that they're willing to surrender it to a backward, failed, deviant "culture", a joke of a society. Franck is obviously a product of the modern education system where they try to hide greatness and accomplishments of European society in the past several hundred years, feeling shame in them instead. Poor Franck. So pathetic, so self-loathing. The perfect dhimmi.

Posted by: feralee at January 3, 2005 1:18 AM

Dana:

I agree with you regarding people not really knowing what's going on. I live in the North of England (Yorkshire) where the geography is made up of a few large cities and towns, but very many small towns, with dozens of outlying villages connected to each small town. The immigrants have concentrated in the biggest cities and towns and generally stay there. Most of the British population is spread among the myriad small towns and their urban villages, what we like to call the urban sprawl, where there are only very small numbers of immigrants and in some cases, like very rural places, there are none at all.
The only information the majority of indigenous British get is what they are spoon fed by the press and media, which is totally biased. Very rarely does anything get into the press that is critical of Islam or "ethnic minorities", when it does it is generalised eg. asylum seeker or Asian.
P.C. has so totally poisoned our whole structure, so much so that police actively avoid arresting immigrants for fear of being labelled racist, because they have been lambasted so much by the media in the past. Those that ARE arrested often have charges dropped.
When I have tried to talk to my small circle of friends, family and neighbours about the huge threat that Islam is to our country they look at me as though I'm crazy, and tell me I "should feel sorry for these poor people who come here from such oppressed countries". It's like hitting one's head against a brick wall.
The only people that DO know what's going on are the small number of people who live side by side with "them" and are targeted by them, the few that are trapped through poverty in the industrial wastelands of old mining and textile mill towns. Or people like me, who have gone out of their way to find out via the internet. I wouldn't know a damn thing about Islam if I didn't have a computer and hadn't made it in my way to find out, (after the decapitation of Ken Bigley) and BOY have I learned some stuff !!!. No where near what most of you guys know, might I add, but enough to scare the pants off me.

No, I'm afraid until these people are in significant numbers on every street, in every town and village, Britain will NOT see the danger and the media will make sure they never hear about it from them. People will just carry on going about their day to day lives, worrying if they can manage to hold onto their jobs, pay their mortgages, take a few weeks holiday abroad, keep their kids fed, clothed, and educated, struggle through the daily crush of decrepit rail travel, or face near gridlock on almost every main route into their stress filled jobs, praying they don't suffer a coronary because the nearest available hospital bed is in the next county.

If and when they legislate against "incitement to religious hatred" we'll need a secret society, an underground movement in order to rally the troops.

There's just been a cracking item on the BBC news 24.. The British are emigrating to Oz in drove's, outnumbering the Asian migration there.

Looks like some have got the message and decided to abandon ship.

Posted by: True Brit at January 3, 2005 2:28 AM

Fregosi, must be the evil twin of Paul Fregosi (look at the book section of this site)

In Belgium, for example, Muslim groups cannot receive public funds because the authorities do not acknowledge them as representative bodies.

What type of groups ?
Imams and religious bodies do get funds, there was a law passed recently.

I doubt he means a Non-profit association, those dont get any state support unless they're cultural associations (theatre and such). But Cultural associations get their financial aid by the regional goverment, the departement is headed by a multiculturalist...

Perhaps the author is UNAWARE that there is an 'elected Islamc Representive council' that DOES receive financial support by the federal goverment. They are SOLE representive body for the Islamic community.
Perhaps the author would like every single real and bogus association to be financed by the state..because they're Muslims ?

Even so, if the goverment doesnt give them financial support then thats because there is a 'democratic' majority for that.
Will he now advocate the abolishment of democracy?
You know, to adapt European society to Islam..

Is Islam compatible with European Humanist values ?

Its like asking :
Will a car drive if you stick bananas into the fuel tank instead of fuel ?

The answer given by Fregosi is...absend.

Mr Spencer : Is Islam compatible with European morals & Values ? Is it compatible with the morals & values Western civilisation ?

-------

Desillusioned German :

You can run, but you cant hide.
Running isnt going to solve anything, is it ?
How far will you run ?
Dont run, stand you ground and get active.
A lot of europeans are misinformed or too busy to get down with the situation. They swallow mass-media views which are mostly ,if not ALL Pro-Multicultural society and Islamisation.
Thats what you gotta do, like you proposed.

Running away and crawling under a rock is not going to help out.

------

People, remember the famous Islamic architecture in Andalusia.
It is THE PERFECT SYMBOL of their conquest.
Germanic tribes were masters there, they were conquered by Islamic forces.
Forces who in 725 (battle of Tours) and 732 (Battle of Poitiers) invaded the Frankish territory and were defeated.
Look at the Balkans, how do you think the Ottomans got there ? Through peacefull means ?
Look at how stable the Balkans are, and do blame it all on nationalism & catholics.
I wonder, If the Ottomans never got there, would there have been such an unstable Balkans ?

------

Conservative and other papers wont publish letters that are deemed 'too radical', as long as there are anti-racism laws.
They dont want to run into trouble, cowards.
-----

True Brit :

I heard a nice story.
Once upon at time, there was this Green party idiot. He was spreading the gospel of multiculturalism to all whom wish to listen.
How great a multicultural society would be, how great it would be to live in a multicultural neighborhood, how exciting it must be for children to attend multicultural schools.

One day, he grew some balls and moved to the big city. Smack down in a multicultural neighborhood.
His kids went to his dream-school.
They loved it at first, but then time started to erode their visions.

After 2 years, they fled the city.
Their conclusion was that Multicultural society is a hoax.
They were pestered by their muslim neighbors, the streets were filthy, there was no happy multicultural society, they were robbed several times, police rarely patrolled and never were thieves and other criminals caught. Drugstrafficing was regular but police 'did nothing'.
The final push for them to flee, was the education of their children.
Their children were lagging far behind, compared to children of the same age in other 'non-concentration schools' (Aka: schools which arnt multicultural :) ).
Their parents didnt understand what happened. Their kids were given equal chances as any other child, yet the educational level of the entire class was ...lower than average.

They were simply pestered out of the neighborhood and their children's education was in danger.
The house they lived in was sold to an N african.
The price it was sold at, was lower than the value of the house. No1 was willing to pay the real value-price. No natives came to look at the house.

The adults of that family, no longer vote for the political left nor the political correct Catholic & Liberal parties.
They do vote for a "racist" party.

Posted by: Briggs at January 3, 2005 1:37 PM

If Mr. Fregosi knew as much about Islam as he would have us believe, he would know that Islam is not based on ANY humanist values - it is based on the divine law of shari'a as revealed in the Qur'an and Sunnah. On the other hand, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights are indeed based on the humanist values first developed during the Classical Period and then later refined during the Renaissance and Enlightenment. The difference here is so obvious, so simple and so profound, one can only wonder why Mr. Fregosi could even begin to compare European humanism with Islam. There is certainly no basis in fact to even begin making such a comparison.

Posted by: Mike at January 3, 2005 2:34 PM