“Muslims and Christians Worship One God.”

How stupid are these Lutherans? I just cannot believe how stupid and ignorant people can be. Let's reason this out. Christians, apparently, believe that Christ was the son of God and divine himself. Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Christ. And that is just one point of difference of literally thousands. These Lutherans must be some of the stupidest people on this entire earth, just behind the members of the United Church of Canada.

Posted by: Admiral Don Juan at January 11, 2005 9:48 AM

If these Deutsche Muslo-panderers really wanted to show "the face of Islam" I suggest they download a gruesome litany of beheaded people posted triumphal-istically on MANY happy-as-pigs-in-sh*t Islamic websites. From slaughtered Mr. Berg to the very latest. Print them up as posters and then let their 'peaceful Muslim neighbors' rationalize the 'good reasons' for why these infidels were butchered ("stike their necks"- Mohammad) and how the beheadings were actually their own fault for "being in places they shouldn't have been".

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

Or, in this case, by their nuts.

Posted by: profitsbeard at January 11, 2005 10:38 AM

Christians are considered "shirk" to muslims. Just ask them if they believe in the Christian G-d. They will say they believe in the creator, but won't say it is not the same god as the Christians. Deception is a part of their religion. The Lord said the enemy (of our souls) comes but to steal, kill and destroy. Who does that sound like? The muslim god requires all good muslims to lie, mutilate, and murder. The muslim god IS NOT the G-d of the scriptures, use your brains.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at January 11, 2005 10:40 AM

Mutual respect is very important indeed, I'm still waiting to get some.

Posted by: Leveller at January 11, 2005 10:40 AM

When I see a muslim proffer a little "mutual respect", I might reconsider my opinion of Islam.
As for worshipping the same God, what idiocy! Muslims ridicule the concept of the Holy Trinity and call Christians polytheists, so how could these dhimmi Lutherans think that the God of the Bible is the God of the Qur'an?! The entire Islamic concept of God is contrary to Christianity's. Ignorance abounds---everywhere!!

Posted by: Susanp at January 11, 2005 10:59 AM

Someone should dress up as Martin Luther and stand around with the 95 theses wherever this mobile exhibit shows up. Luther is rolling over in his grave...

Posted by: 3812Michelle at January 11, 2005 11:06 AM

Any Germans who want to see what Moslems are really all about, please visit the following German Language website:

http://www.schule.dk/islam/islam.htm

Posted by: Andrew at January 11, 2005 11:10 AM

Andrew:

A few messages were left for you on the DW Jan.7 "Europe's Identity Crisis" thread. Can you let me know if you've seen them? :-)

Thanks.

Posted by: CGW at January 11, 2005 11:27 AM

More taqiyya, kitman and dhimmitude - what a delightful Muslim-Christian dialogue that will make!

Posted by: Mike at January 11, 2005 11:54 AM

PS. Where's my barf bag.

Posted by: Mike at January 11, 2005 11:55 AM

Before any more of this goes on, would it not be possible for the Lutherans in Hannover to read around, just a bit, in Qur'an, hadith, and sira, and possibly to read some of the many histories of Islamic conquest, or some of the texts on dhimmitude -- Antoine Fattal's study of the legal aspects, or Bat Ye'or's close analysis of why various communities of dhimmis, instead of allying with each other, tried to make their separate, fatal deals with their Muslim overlords. It might be instructive.

Then, armed with knowledge, by all means go talk to Muslims -- and then you may better compare what you have learned, with what they tell you.

Posted by: Hugh at January 11, 2005 12:16 PM

CGW

Thank you, I just took another look. As for the comment regarding the opposite side of the spectrum, the weakining of Islam, I am hopeful, but as for Iranians rushing to Iraq, I would not be so convinced it is for anything other than jihad.

Posted by: Andrew at January 11, 2005 12:18 PM

The Islamic god is the same as the Judeo-Christian god because Muhammad said it so. He said it so because the Qur'an (revelation) said it so.

Definitely a Muhammaden catch-22, but one that muslims latch on to because a paradox is much easier to contend with for those with an endlessly looping mind.

Common sense therefore, cannot possibly come from the Almighty.

Posted by: Moe's Foe at January 11, 2005 12:26 PM

The Lutherans don't care, Mr. Fitzgerald, about arming themselves with truth--they know the truth deep down inside. They only blindly misinterpret the basic tenants of Christianity, "turn the other cheek" and "love you enemy as you love yourself" in resignation to their weakening religious vitality and mistake it for wisdom, which Jesus Christ may not have agreed with.

Some things are worth fighting for, one being the Judeo-Christian religious identity of Western Civilization and our heritage and culture.

If Christianity can't even agree that a practicing homosexual Bishop is causing a schism in the Episcopalian church because it contradicts the Bible, or that marriage as defined between a man and a woman is the foundation of civilization for the beginning, than they will apply the same fuzzy, non-traditional thinking to Islam, which is unchanging and monolithic.

But it sure "Feels" good for them while they "Dialogue" with a foe that is merely biding their time. It's sheer foolishness really and the wailing and gnashing of teeth which can only follow such surrender will be quite ugly and the first to be purged will be those who most championed our enemy’s objective.

Posted by: Andrew at January 11, 2005 12:38 PM

Please someone tell me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know there don't seem to be any Know-Christianity exhibitions in Muslim countries.

Are there any outreach projects for example in the Sudan ending with the local bishop and the iman sitting down having a cup of tea together and saying how thrilled they are with each other's commitment to tolerance and understanding?

Isn't the fact that this multiculturism is such a one-way street indicative of something?

I hope that enough people in Germany are wondering the same thing.

Posted by: Elephant at January 11, 2005 12:53 PM

The Economist too, misses the point and believes the West (Britain in this case) should pander more to Muslims:

A Muslim strategy that dares not speak its name

DOMESTIC Islamist terrorists have not yet launched an attack in Britain, but it may not be through lack of trying. Those responsible for the nation's security claim that five or six plots--some more polished than others--have been thwarted since 2001. That speaks well for the police and intelligence services, but badly for the state of communal relations. There is a growing consensus that police work alone cannot prevent a future attack--that the government also needs to address the sources of Muslim anger.

Fears have intensified recently. While the invasion of Iraq is believed to have interrupted at least one domestic plot by providing an alternative venue for holy war, the general effect has been disastrous. Resentment at the occupation of a Muslim nation, combined with continuing anger over the treatment of co-religionists in Palestine and Chechnya, has convinced many that there is a war against Islam.

More fury is likely to mean more scheming, but how and where? The problem certainly does not lie with Britain's mosques, which are mostly stuffy and conservative. Nor does the danger originate from Islamist groups. The truly worrying face of radical Islam bears little resemblance to members of noisy outfits like Hizb-ut-Tahrir and the currently dormant Al-Muhajiroun. "If they were important, something would have been done about them," says a Whitehall source.

Asking how plotters are made is "like asking why people take up skateboarding," says the source. But other insiders say one pattern is becoming clear. A group of irreligious young men drops out of mainstream Muslim society, perhaps turning to petty crime. Then an outside agent sells them a new belief system--not the Islam they grew up with, but a religion that is light on theology and heavy on violence. The visitor is likely to have fought in Bosnia or Afghanistan, and may come bearing videos of atrocities from Chechnya. A terrorist cell is born.

Unfortunately, knowing that such a recruitment path exists does not make it easy to close. Agitators are hard to spot, since they are not part of a network. And if every disaffected Muslim were watched, the police and security services would have time for little other work. So the best tactic, goes this argument, is to reduce the number of disaffected Muslims.

That is a tall order, since they have some reason to feel aggrieved. The 2001 census revealed that there were large gaps between Muslims and other Britons on the most important social, educational and economic indicators (see chart). Iqbal Sacranie, the general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, describes Muslims as "an underclass that has never had its fair share of the cake".

Poverty is bad enough without being picked on. Unfortunately, the much-vaunted revival of street policing seems to have meant more hassle for Muslims. Street searches of Asians increased in number from 36,000 four years ago to 62,000 last year; in London and West Yorkshire, where Muslims are especially concentrated, they more than doubled. Anti-terrorism powers are used clumsily and ineffectively. Of the 3,758 Asians stopped and searched under the Terrorism Act in the past two years, just seven were arrested for linked offences.

Evidence of poverty and discrimination on such a scale might be enough to prod any government into action; coupled with a theory about how terrorists are made, the case becomes overwhelming. So efforts are underway to keep Muslims on-side.

In November, a ban on incitement to religious hatred--which, it is widely assumed, will be used mostly to defend Muslims--was tagged on to a parliamentary bill on policing. Another reform means that foreign imams will be required to pass a basic English test. Both reforms were supported by Muslim organisations and are intended to increase the appeal of mainstream Islam, thereby stiffening resistance to temptation.

Other changes have been quieter. The Foreign Office now regularly talks through Middle East policy with moderate Muslim groups. Uniquely for a non-Muslim country, it also helps out with the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, which is reckoned to be a good way of appealing to the most religious in the community.

The Home Office is investigating the police treatment of Asian Muslims alongside other minority groups. Civil servants are trying to work out why some groups (including, not surprisingly, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) receive less funding for community projects. In the jargon, policy is being quietly "sensitised".

What the government has not done is to admit that it is targeting a religious group. Although documents outlining a "Muslim strategy" have circulated around Whitehall, no co-ordinated policy has yet emerged. That is partly because nobody can agree on what form such a strategy should take. Even the tentative outreach efforts that have been attempted so far have caused bust-ups within the Home Office, and between it and the Foreign Office.

But another, more calculated reason for foot-dragging is that an overt Muslim strategy would be inflammatory. Other minorities are likely to feel left out because they are less feared. "Muslims have a good deal to complain about, but no more than do young black men--the worst-treated pariah group of all," says Shamit Saggar, a political scientist at Sussex University.

Stronger objections would come from poor whites. The suspicion that public funds were flowing to Pakistani Muslims prepared the ground for riots in 2001 and bumped up support for the racist British National Party. Tensions have dissipated since then, but one northern MP believes they would rise again if resources were publicly diverted to Muslims.

The softly-softly approach does not please advocacy groups like the Islamic Human Rights Commission, which is embarked on a series of reports entitled "British Muslims' Expectations of the Government". But it is probably the wisest course. Ignoring a social problem is foolish, but singling out a group for special attention may be more dangerous.

Posted by: Charles Martel at January 11, 2005 1:32 PM

Martin Luther for all the good he did, also became very anti-Semitic.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-
semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

Maybe during their inter-faith meetings the Lutherans will share their anti-Semitic
remarks from Martin Luther while the Moslems share their anti-Semitic writings from the Qur’an.

Then they can hold workshops on loving your wife Islam style.
Treating her like cattle, beating her when she just wont listen, telling her she really cant vote or drive, and finally polygamy 101.

Qur'an 4:11 "Allah directs you in regard of your Children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.",

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

Bukhari:V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, `Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, `Yes.' He said, `This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.'"

Ishaq:584 "Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman."

Tabari I:280 "Allah said, `It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."

Qur'an 4:3 "If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice who seem good to you, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to do justice (to so many), then only one, or (a slave) that you possess, that will be more suitable. And give the women their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, eat it with enjoyment, take it with right good cheer and absorb it (in your wealth)."

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah's Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us."

If the Lutherans do not come to the conclusion that Moslems and Christians worship completely different Gods, then I am afraid the Lutherans are completely lost.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
(Ephesians 5:25-33)

Posted by: Bar at January 11, 2005 1:45 PM

It invites non-Muslim Germans to attend seminars on women and human rights under Islam,

LOL! That's hilarious. What a joke.

...fundamentalism, integration and the obstacles facing illegal Muslim immigrants.

The only obstacle facing illegal immigrants should be the bars inside a jail cell.

I wonder if they will talk about Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist immigrants into Muslim countries?

Posted by: kj at January 11, 2005 2:00 PM

I hope they will "educate" us corrupt westerners on the rights of homosexuals in Muslim coutries.

Posted by: kj at January 11, 2005 2:00 PM

Well, since kj asked:

Amnesty International report, "Torture and imprisonment for actual or perceived sexual orientation":

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE120332001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\EGYPT

"Detainees reported that they were tortured, including by being beaten with a stick on the soles of the feet (falaka), during the first stages of their detention. Following their arrest, most men were detained in police stations, where they were reportedly beaten and verbally abused by police officers. One of the accused told Amnesty International:

''The real beatings started in the police station. They beat us with their hands and legs and with a cane and a thick stick. Then they made us strip down to our underwear and the insults and humiliation continued.''"

Posted by: Mike at January 11, 2005 2:43 PM

Some of my "favorite" Faces of Islam:

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/7-Husseini-soldier_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

Posted by: Mike at January 11, 2005 2:53 PM

Luther only in life criticise the Catholic Church, the Church that fight with muslims and protestants didn´t help to save Europe, but this isn´t any newness.

Posted by: Franze at January 11, 2005 3:06 PM

The fundamental problem with contemporary Christianity its that it's run by intellectuals who come from seminaries that have long-since abandoned the fundamental principles of the faith for an infatuation with intellectual fashion, such as ideas about "tolerance," "multiculturalism," "diversity" and the rights of the aggrieved.

Well, the Nazis also complained about their national and ethnic rights being violated (through the Versailles tready, among other vehicles); they successfully used such grievances to get the major European powers to give them the Czech Sudetenland in August 1938. Seven months later, they stormed into Prague. Six months after that, WWII began.

The European intellectuals have been so scalded by their continent's violent past that they will do anything for peace. Unfortuntately, they didn't learn the lessons of WWII and the Cold War: Peace came not by appeasing Fascist and Marxist evil, but by confronting and defeating it.
Unfortunately, another bloody conflagration will have to take place before Islamic evil is defeated.

Posted by: Joseph D'Hippolito at January 11, 2005 3:23 PM

Hold on, let's understand what Lutherans believe before we proceed about Germany.

First and foremost, please be advised that there are many different synods (sects) within the Lutheran church. In the USA, you have three sects that are independant of one another: the Lutheran church Missouri synod, the Lutheran church Wisconsin Synod, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA).

Compared to the other Lutheran denominations, the ELCA has a very liberal platform. I am amazed by how much the ELCA Lutherans have in common with the Methodists, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians. The ELCA is the only Lutheran denomination that allows pulpit sharing with the other denominations, offers anyone "open communion" ie, an open "toast" to Christ, has women pastors, and passively embraces the homosexual lifestyle). In the name of "tolerance", these churches may also be passively endorsing Islam (or any religion of your choice) as well. "Progressive Christianity", anyone?

http://www.tcpc.org/

Please bear in mind that the doctrines of the ELCA are indistinguishable from the doctrines of the Lutheran church in Germany.

Amazing how church doctrine at the above churches has been slowly becoming the same, isn't it. If you happen to be a member of one of the churches named in the above paragraphs, please do not take offense. Instead, do yourself a favor and ask your pastor what your church clearly believes regarding the above issues. You just might be surprised by the answers you get. The next question you need to ask yourself is, are you comfortable with the new, "Progressive Christianity" doctrines that are quietly endorsed by your church.

Funny how we have "Progressive Christianity", but I cannot find "Progressive Islam" anywhere on the internet.

Have a look at this website:

http://www.schule.dk/islam/islam.htm

For those who cannot read German, please note the English language contribution on the bottom right of the webpage -- by Mohammed al Gaddafi!

Posted by: hindenburg at January 11, 2005 7:28 PM

OT, but interesting...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/4005931.stm

Posted by: Santiago Matamoros at January 11, 2005 8:24 PM

Islam is a "Retro-Active" doctrine created by a man that heard voices in his head and even believed the voice to be that of the Father of Christ.
Muhammed knew about the Prophecy by Jesus that soon a "False Prophet" will come after I and claim to speak for my Father in heaven,this prophet will promise Peace for all people but only bring to the world War,pain,suffering and death.
It has become the new tactic of Muslims in the West to abandon the ruse of portraying Islam as Peaceful since all the violence and beheadings are getting too hard ignore,the new SCAM is to
point out that Jesus in in the Quran and is revered as a Muslim and Prophet.
Jesus has no connection to Islam in any way,but Muslims are loved by Christ just as I am since
we're all related through the same Father. This is why I'm not filled with hate and revenge for the Muslims that are now murdering Christians in Iraq,this is why I see them as misguided children of God that can be forgiven and see that they
must love their enemies as part of showing forgivness and compassion.

Sadly our Politicians placate the Muslims by joining in the charade to act out or dress up
to go along with Mosques rules as if to accept
Islam as the true religion from God.
Lets see if Mosques host a "Christian" seminar
to understand western values and practises,I doubt this will happen since every Mosque that
asks for media coverage of an event,also sets out the dress-codes for the media and expects everyone else to adhere to Islamic teachings.
One rule is to avoid taping the faces of people during prayers,the other was to avoid showing women praying.
I believe the Mosque doesn't want to be exposed as harbouring Militants and showing the faces on the news might get some of them arrested,just like the refugees that cover their faces or turn away from the camera.

Here's a bit of hypocracy,for almost 10 years now the Canadian Government has banned any crosses
from being displayed during Rememberance-Day tributes at public places where they're held,this new sensitivity to minorities and religiously-neutral stance seemed valid at the time.
But during the memorials for the Tsunami deaths
that were held Jan 8th,several Religious leaders
can to those exact sites and brought all the trimmings of their faith,while our Politicians
stood there and listened to the prayers and watched the objects of worship be paraded about
it was amazing to see the monument for the fallen
dead in the backdrop.
All the Christians that died to pay for the freedom in Canada that the Hindu,Moslem,Budhist,Sikh's and others are now told that the symbol of the Cross can't be shown
in the exact spot the other faith show their sybols is so insulting and damaging to the professed "Tolerance" of these minorities that claimed the came here to flee that exact supression of faith in their homeland.

The god of Muslims IS NOT the same god for followers of Christ,I'm not ordered to behead people,nor am I instructed to slaughter the Jews and Christians which makes for a really odd religion if the Quran tell Muslims to kill the followers of their revered Prophet Jesus.
I don't trust them and I have seen enough in the Quran and in real life to judge for myself that Islam is a hoax that was sold to the fools that embrace ignorance as a virtue and treat submissiom and murder as proof of Gods love.

NO ISLAM - KNOW FREEDOM

Posted by: ala-sux at January 11, 2005 8:49 PM

Moslems take the initiative every time, while we are left holding the bag. It's time we stop complaining about them doing what they do and that we start doing the same with our combined talents and energies.

Join us in our on-going discussion at http://jwunited.blogspot.com to see if you have an interest in doing more than reading and writing about Islam and the very real threat it poses to you and your family, your community and your nation.

We join in discussion to further our goal of fighting back. We are making a difference in or own small way, and we want you to join in the effort.

I read your posts daily, and I know that many of you are highly competent and energetic people. Join us and offer your suggestions and learn what we're doing. this is no time to be complaining about the Lutherans in Germany. Yhis is a time to be on the streets re-educating Germansw about the real nature of Islam. Join us and find out what you can do. What you can do in your own neighborhoods.

Posted by: sonofwalker at January 12, 2005 1:46 AM

They should organize a "Know Germany" exhibition to tell them how Germans live, think and act. Not the other way around. Why should Germany suddenly turn into a northern Turkey? It's Germany. Not Turkey. I pity Europe. It won't be Europe for much longer. There won't be much point in going to Europe any more. It'll be the same as going to Turkey or Lebanon or Jordan. No difference.

Posted by: feralee at January 12, 2005 9:20 AM