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Daveed Gartenstein-Ross at FrontPage says what must be said about dhimmi Western silence regarding Islamic apostasy law:
Last month, Britain’s Daily Telegraph reported that Prince Charles was leading efforts to combat the Islamic law of apostasy, under which leaving the Muslim religion is at the very least illegal and is often punishable by death. Charles had held a private summit of Christian and Muslim leaders at Clarence House to discuss the issue. There was, however, one hitch: The Muslim delegation at the summit cautioned the prince and other non-Muslims not to speak publicly about apostasy laws, and some of the Christian leaders in attendance were reportedly “sympathetic” to this concern.Although the proffered reason that non-Muslims should not speak publicly about apostasy laws was that Muslim moderates could better influence the debate without outside intervention, this argument does not stand up to scrutiny. After all, virtually every observer agrees that the West cannot prevail in the war on terror unless Muslim moderates can counter their co-religionists’ more militant outlook, yet Westerners do publicly criticize Islamic terrorism, loudly and repeatedly. Western silence on the apostasy issue will not help Islamic moderates; rather, silence is more likely to make both Muslims and also converts out of Islam believe that the issue is unimportant to the outside world.
Many Westerners, however, appear hesitant to speak out on the issue of religious freedom for converts out of Islam. There are two apparent reasons for this hesitation. First, in our multiculturalist society, many feel awkward about speaking up on behalf of those who leave Islam out of concern that attacks on apostasy laws could be seen as criticism of Islam itself. Moreover, apostasy laws affect small numbers in comparison to the large-scale threat of terrorism. Thus, many people may believe that it is not worth making waves over the issue.
This base view should be rejected. In pursuing interfaith dialogue, the treatment of apostates from Islam is one of the crucial issues that Prince Charles and other Westerners should address because the ability to change one’s faith is a fundamental right. Freedom of belief lies at the very heart of an individual’s identity because one’s theological outlook is central to one’s moral and philosophical understanding of the world. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights thus proclaims that everybody should have the “freedom to change his religion or belief.”
Read it all.
Posted by Robert at January 31, 2005 11:27 AM
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Even when Muslims make up hardly 2% of the population in a country, being an ex-Muslim is dangerous business. Especially when the PeeCee authorities are weak and feeble:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6966
Dear All,
my apostate friend Fatima ( http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6014 ) got into serious trouble. She received a letter from a Pakistani guy who threaned to kill her. It used to happen often to Fatima but this time Muslim wrote her full address in the letter. Nodody knows where he found her address but actually it doesn't matter. So now Fatima is moving to another town with her family. The problem is that they are buying/selling houses WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM THE NORWEGIAN AUTHORITIES.
The dumb police promised to "keep an eye" on Fatima but they think that there is nothing dangerous in this threat. They tried to calm Fatima down. You know, apostasy is not the reason for killing anyone.
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at January 31, 2005 11:40 AM
"There was, however, one hitch: The Muslim delegation at the summit cautioned the prince and other non-Muslims not to speak publicly about apostasy laws, and some of the Christian leaders in attendance were reportedly “sympathetic” to this concern."
What where they going to do, discuss these apostasy laws with them privately? What kind of nonsence is this? can`t these people come to a meeting with their belief systems fully in tact and stand up for what they believe without making concessions to the muslim delegation? Just more appeasement by people who are apparently incompetent to discuss the apostasy laws in the first place.
Why have a discussion at all if you are afraid to speak out on what you really think! All the niceties be dammed! Prince Charles -- go play some polo.
Posted by: Mackie at January 31, 2005 12:00 PM
This rather makes a mockery of the often quoted (2:256) "Let there be no compulsion in religion".
This can actually be refuted on 3 counts:
1) The very next verse talks about non believers spending eternity in the fire of Hell.
2) It does not apply to Muslims. The remarks about Apostacy confirm that.
3) (2:256) is irrelevant anyway as most scholars agree it was abrogated by more aggressive verses from Sura 9.
Too little too late Charles. You should have been questioning Islam's doctrine of murdering people who, ahem, commit adultery or Islam's brutal treatment of homosexuals......
Posted by: Celsius at January 31, 2005 12:54 PM
OT:
I have good news about the case in the January 27, 2005 edition of Dhimmi Watch "Pakistan: tribal council wants raped doctor killed"
From Sheila Dauer, Director
Women's Human Rights Program
Amnesty International USA
"AI is aware of this case. They have communicated with the government and non governmental human rights organizations in Pakistan. apparently, the intended victim is safe and not so much in danger. Arrests have been made and the Human rights community is preparing a demonstration for this week."
at January 31, 2005 1:03 PM
Another explanation is the moderate Muslims find Infidel criticism of Islam more distasteful than apostasy laws; let an apostate die before an Infidel would raise his voice against Islam...
Posted by: JTF at January 31, 2005 1:23 PM
Well, all I can say to Muslim apostates (at least the ones who become Christians) is that I welcome them as brothers. To those high-minded liberal souls who don't care that these people are often risking their lives, I say shame on you. To the Norwegian police whom Ali Dashti mentioned, I can only say "Swine!"
Posted by: Kepha1 at January 31, 2005 3:55 PM
MUSLIMS AND APOSTASY:
For most contemporary Muslims across the spectrum of beliefs and ideologies, apostasy still carries shocking and dreadful associations as a most abhorrent sin. Even for modernists and secularists it carries negative connotations of betrayal of one’s community and rejection of one’s heritage. This attitude explains why so few Muslim voices are ever raised in defence of those accused of apostasy. Among the Muslim masses apostasy, like jihad, is still a popular notion that is bound to raise emotions and outbursts of violence and which can therefore be manipulated by those who see themselves as defenders of traditional Islam or by those who could benefit from the downfall of the accused. Theologically, in Islam this is one of the few sins God cannot forgive as it refuses Him and His mercy.[iii]
In Islamic jurisprudence and tradition apostasy (irtidad) has always been linked to the concepts of unbelief, blasphemy and heresy (all combined under the term kufr), which are sometimes used interchangeably. In a sense kufr is the category while apostasy, blasphemy and heresy are its sub-categories. Legally, blasphemy is a ta‘zir offence (where the judge has flexibility in determining the punishment), while apostasy is normally considered a hadd offence (where the punishment is seen as fixed by God).[iv] All are regarded as severe crimes, but there is unanimous consensus that apostasy is punishable by death under Shari’ah hudud laws. In practice the death penalty is not often implemented, but depriving the apostates of all their civil rights is commonly practised. While apostasy, blasphemy and heresy are distinct terms in English, in Arabic kafir is often used to generally describe an apostate, a blasphemer or a heretic, and all three are closely linked in the minds of Muslims as interchangeable categories, which is why they are often combined in prosecutions in spite of the different categories of Shari’ah criminal law they fall under.[v]
While apostate (murtadd) usually refers to a Muslim who has officially converted to another faith, thus becoming a kafir, others who claim to be good Muslims can be accused of unbelief, blasphemy and heresy as well as of apostasy for various other causes, including scepticism, atheism, ascribing partners or associates to God, and not fully implementing Shari’ah. Some authorities list 300 different acts that could make a person a kafir, thus leaving the door wide open for denouncing other Muslims as infidels liable to the death penalty in a process known as takfir.[vi] In many cases multiple charges of apostasy, blasphemy, unbelief, heresy and of insulting Islam and Muhammad are brought against the accused, thus giving the judges greater flexibility in deciding under which category to define the crime and to help ensure that the accused does get convicted for something. A feature of accusations of apostasy and blasphemy is the way they are often uncritically accepted as true by members of the police and of the criminal justice system, with little or no evidence required.[vii]
at January 31, 2005 5:14 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I truly will always believe that there are a lot of "closet convert" Christians, Hindu's, Jews, etc., living in the lands of mohammed's monsters.
Posted by: Just_Linda at January 31, 2005 5:33 PM
The Barnabus Fund I believe, was the first organisation that campaigned against the Apostasy Law in muslim nations.
http://www.barnabasfund.org/Apostasy.htm
Lot more on this subject in the above link.
Just_Linda: I don't know about you guys, but I truly will always believe that there are a lot of "closet convert" Christians, Hindu's, Jews, etc., living in the lands of mohammed's monsters.
Indeed there are, particularly Christians. Again the link gives information.
There is a growing number of muslims, particularly educated ones, who have left islam and become good Christians. I pray God bless and protect them.
at January 31, 2005 6:14 PM
The real tragedy for muslims who leave islam and become Christians, is that they get no support from our governments, even when they are being threatened with death.
How many Van Goghs, Armanious family, Rusdhies etc, will it take before our enlightened government wakes up to the serious problem that is festering in our societies?
A quote
Any objection to mass immigration or the destruction of traditional Judaeo-Christian moral values is deemed as racist, akin to support for fascism. As a result, in the name of multi-cultural tolerance, we have allowed the creation of the brutal, anti-democratic monster of Islamism in our midst.
Posted by: DP111 at January 31, 2005 6:26 PM
Just_Linda:
From this article taken from http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/index.jsp?eng=y it states that the Catholic bishops are well aware of what happens to apostates in Muslim countries.
[Bishop] Hinder resides in Abu Dhabi and governs the most expansive Catholic territory in the world, covering more than 3 million square kilometers of terrain and encompassing six states: Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, and Yemen.
The Catholic faithful in the whole territory are usually estimated at 1,300,000, almost all of them immigrants from non-Arabic countries. But in reality there are many more. For example, in Saudi Arabia there are about a million Filipinos, the great majority of whom are Catholic, who are not counted. In an interview in "Mondo e Missione" no. 8, 2004, bishop Hinder said:
"For safety reasons I cannot give precise data on Saudi Arabia. The situation there is very similar to that of the first Christian communities. There is a lively Church in the hands of lay leaders who direct the many base communities. It is a Church praying and hoping that one day it will be able to emerge from the catacombs."
In the Emirates, Qatar, and Bahrain the boundaries of religious liberty are relatively broader. But there are few priests to serve the people, and entry restrictions do not permit increasing their number.
In recent years, the presence of "Evangelical" and Pentecostal Churches in the Arabian Peninsula has grown. Their missionary expansion has induced the local governments to tighten controls.
Some Catholics are also joining these new Churches. Or they become Muslim, which makes a huge splash in the media. The reverse also happens, Muslims converting to Christianity, but on this there is a requirement of absolute secrecy. Hinder says in the same interview:
"We could never permit ourselves to accept a converted Muslim. This eventuality would create extremely serious risks, not only for the persons concerned, but for the entire Church."
It's all there in a few paragraphs: "Liberal" Islamic governments not allowing new priests into their country, tightening controls on evangelicalism, conversions to Islam trumpeted in the media, and conversion to Christianity kept secret because of serious risks.
Posted by: Lisa at January 31, 2005 6:51 PM
"... concern that attacks on apostasy laws could be seen as criticism of Islam itself."
Any open, honest discussion of Islam can be seen as criticism of this horrid belief system. Once you shed light on, and start talking about the horrible tenets and beliefs, you can't help but view it negatively. Like the Victoria Villification Case that basically stated quoting from the Koran was villifying Muslims. Once you shed light on their cult, they can't help but feel discomfited. It reveals the extent of their depravity and lies. So they'd rather their belief system be kept in the dark, hidden from view, closed to discussion, whitewashed with taqiyya (Islam is Peace BS). This is where the power of Islam lies - hide the facts from the infidels and they can spread this hateful ideology far and wide, and gain respect of the authorities, and hence more power.
Posted by: feralee at January 31, 2005 8:57 PM
ISN'T KILLING AGAINST THE LAW IN ENGLAND ANYMORE??
I would think the Prince would call all mulsum leaders in his country and tell them if we catch one of you killing someone for converting we will start shipping you out of this country starting with you !!
Now start telling your people this will not stand in My country!!
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage Amen
at February 2, 2005 12:32 PM
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