When in comes to genuine, heartfelt dhimmitude, you can always count on the BBC.

'Course, a cynic, like me, would suspect that large dollops of Saudi money has been going into various pockets for some years now, and that what is 'reported' in certain media or by some reporters/writers, reflects the colour of that money.

'Course, being a cynic doesn't make me always right, but frightingly more often than i'd like.

Posted by: dby at April 8, 2005 2:53 AM

I did tackle the Bleedin' Biased Corporation about that some months ago when I (and certain other JWers) complained about Islam Week at Childrens BBC. I pointed out that a belief system that sanctioned the rape of Aisha aged 9 was not the sort of thing I wanted my daughter exposed to. I got an anodyne reply, I wrote back saying that the reply was not acceptable, that I wanted answers to my questions, reminded them that I paid the licence fee and asked how much Saudi oil sponsorship they got. They never got back to me, surprise surprise.
I didn't watch last nights programme, I watched UK History instead, The Kings and Queens of England, and then came and checked this site. I should really have been washing up, of course.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at April 8, 2005 4:23 AM

Anybody who really knows history will understand that it was the fall of Constantinople and the loss of faith in the Church (main due to the clack death) that resulted in the European Renaissance. The only real contribution from Islam was forcing enlightened people to flee Muslim controled lands.

It really gets me, it is a clash of civilisation, between those that feel that individual rights are paramount and those that think one should be submissive to God or whoever interprets God for them.

Can us Brits please think back to Victorian times when the church was preaching respect your elders and betters, well that is what Islam brings to the table...

I am really begining to dislike the BBC.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 8, 2005 4:59 AM

I was bloody furious. My only consolation through the entire program of drivel was my excellent bottle of Israeli wine !
What really angers me though is that there is no balance why are journalists who are critical of islam never given as much air time, why no opposing veiws ?
The bbc will post links to CAIR on their websites but none to anti cair.

Anyway slightly OT, but proof that people in the UK are not easily led. I have had my "Myth of islamic tolerance" book for about a week now.
I read it on the train/tube/bus.
I always hold it at eye level so everyone can see the title.
In the one week I have been doing this I have noticed people looking at the title and three people writing it down.
I leave it on my desk at work and all the lefty luvvies can see the title.
It has attracted so much attention.

Anyway my other gripe with the BBC is when they have people like William Dalrymple saying that "moslem rule in india was always tolerant" or words to that effect.
o they think we don't know our own history ?

Posted by: apostate_islam at April 8, 2005 5:27 AM

aposte_Islam, great approach with the book, be careful though.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 8, 2005 5:44 AM

We find the general public being instructed by film rather than by scholars as less and less history is taught to students. Perhaps this situation has been created so that biased and irresponsible films can be used to indoctrinate. What do you think?

Posted by: epg at April 8, 2005 5:47 AM

Europe has no culture. Period. It might have had one once; it now has a lot of chutzpah to say American's don't have one.

A bit OT, but the Taiwanese official delegation to the Pope's funeral (headed by Pres. Chen, a Buddhist) includes, in addition to some prominent RC clergy, the imam of Taipei's mosque, Hajj Ma Shiao-chi (馬孝棋-- Islamic name not reported in either English or Chinese press; although if you throw an egg into a Chinese mosque, you'll splatter someone surnamed either Ma, Na, or Ding).

An online report quotes the imam respectfully referring to the Pope's humanity and love of philosophy, as well as the common monotheism of Christianity and Islam.

Posted by: Kepha at April 8, 2005 6:26 AM

The PBS version on the same topic spouts the same drivel about how much the Renaissance owed to Islam. I obtained a DVD copy at the Fairfax County Public Library. Wouldn't you know it? This material was placed by the CAIR Library Project. The last time I checked the CAIR website, the library project had nearly reached its goal of placing their Islamic propaganda into 8ooo American libraries.

Problem is, because many educators accept various "scholarly" materials as infallible, our young people are being indoctrinated in revisionist history. Furthermore, textbooks now obscure the reason for calling the medieval period The Dark Ages.

As you so aptly put it, Daffersd, "The only real contribution from Islam was forcing enlightened people to flee Muslim controled lands"!

The entire list of CAIR sponsored library materials is available at www.cair-net.org. One can visit the site and check to see CAIR's "progrss," state by state.

Posted by: WatchfulEye at April 8, 2005 6:40 AM

My copy of The Myth of Islamic Tolerance arrived mail order yesterday. My very good, family run, local bookshop tried and failed to order it for me. I found out later that I had been misheard and that they were trying to locate a book entitled The Mists of Islamic Intolerance. Green mist perhaps.
Aposate of Islam, I don't think I have your courage to read it on the tube, I cannot fortify myself with the wine that early of a morning. My Dad used to get wine from Chaikins wine merchant in Brick Lane,who are long defunct, but my husband recently discovered Palwins, in Sainsburys.
Getting back to the BBC, I have been watching their coverage of the Popes funeral live from Rome this morning. It was impressive, and comparable with the coverage for the Queen Mother in dignity. I will give them credit where it is due.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at April 8, 2005 7:13 AM

Granny Weatherwax,

I drink the wine in the evening, not the morning.
Honest :)

What is there to be afraid of ?
it is a democratic right to read any dammed book we want.
What will the police do ? confiscate it ?
If that happened, rest assured I would write to every journalist and take legal action.
They rely on our fear to subdue us.
read the book on the tube, just be careful you don't do it in front of somebody who is obviously moslem.
I display it for the following reasons:
1/It's my right
2/To advertise it to (please forgive the expression) white people.
3/ When people see a brown, indian origin bloke reading it they will think "is it really racist to critique islam ?

The racial aspect of critiquing islam is the one which must be demolished, when that happens then it will be open season on this most primitive faith.

Regards to all

AI

Posted by: apostate_islam at April 8, 2005 7:41 AM

"read the book on the tube, just be careful you don't do it in front of somebody who is obviously moslem."
And there's the rub. Without saying where I live, and where I work, and what line I travel on, the very caution you urge is the very caution I feel. I do leave literature from the Barnabas Fund on the seat behind me as I leave and the reason I first asked my local bookshop to order the book is that occasionally I have ordered something they thought sounded interesting and so they ordered two. And more, when the extra copy sold. That didn't happen here, for the reasons above, and the cost. Amazon had it on special offer.
I do agree with you on the racial aspect of criticism.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at April 8, 2005 8:13 AM

Apostate_Islam,

Totally agree with you on reading such books in public.

I've done that for months, in the train mostly, and got interresting reactions : people taking note of the title, people looking at me with slightly agreeing expressions, some also with displeased faces - but I don't care, it's THEIR problem if they don't like my readings, as you said as long as my country is (still) democratic I'm free to read "any dammed book I want".

Well, of course, not all people understand the subject of those books (I read quite a lot of them in English - 'cause less expensive or no French translation available).

A funny memory: last year, I was reading Ibn Warraq "Why I am not a Muslim" (French edition). At some point, 2 veiled women enter the compartiment and sat in front of me. Then one noticed my book, spoke to the other (in some langage I couldn't understand) and... they got up and left; apparently the train was not quite crowded enough for them to stay in front of such an outrageous book, poor them ;-)

I sometimes also translate some papers / posts from here and other interesting sites; when I'm done and leave the train, I usually leave the paper on the seat so that someone else can pick it and have a look.

And some other times I annotate my copy of the Qu'ran, based on what I'm reading. It happens that people ask me what's actually in the "Book", and it is then my pleasure to show some choicy ayas from surate II, IV, V, IX and such, and to discuss about abrogation doctrine and so. I don't think every one believes me, but at least they'll have doubts about the "Religion of Peace"!

Posted by: Pistache at April 8, 2005 8:19 AM

PS: to Granny Weatherwax...

I understand that in some areas the risk of running into trouble is probably high... I remember only one occasion where someone reacted aggressively - a man who spat at me from the platform, fortunately there was the train window between us...

But I fear that, if we are "too" cautious, we'll become nothing more than dhimmis with time...

Posted by: Pistache at April 8, 2005 8:25 AM

Hum, It could be a good way of getting some space during the rush hour.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at April 8, 2005 8:29 AM

There is another reason why I read the book in public.
it's not complicated it's
"BECAUSE MY DAUGHTER WILL NEVER WEAR A VEIL"
She can wear a skirt, even a sari whatever she wants. And it is my duty to her to make sure people know the truth and if I have to risk a punch up then so be it, it will only generate more publicity.

regards

AI

Posted by: apostate_islam at April 8, 2005 8:37 AM

AI
You are right. I feel the same way about my daughter, and it was Beslan that brought me to this site.
I should be over this flu by next week, wish me luck for Tuesday morning.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at April 8, 2005 8:48 AM

2/To advertise it to (please forgive the expression) white people.~ AI

Nothing to forgive. Especially in light of the fact that the original muslim population was mostly ethnic white to begin with. People like to scream 'racism' without giving the slightest thought to that fact. (Unfortunately that is done quite a bit by people of all colors).

Posted by: Gary at April 8, 2005 8:54 AM

apostate_islam, totally agree we must demolish the racism thing, I have always looked at the inner person and what they think, racism is plain stupid, also its wise to learn from and about other cultures.

I have learnt that Islam is a fascist ideology, that devouts Muslims are blinded by their hate filled faith, so I am against Islam as an ideology.

The issue is how to counter Islamofascism:

Stage 1 - Get the public awareness up and counter all this Islam is a religion of peace bullshit.

Stage 2 - Create a political movement encompassing all spetrums of European society to defend individual rights against surrender to Islam.

Stage 3 - The tough one, how can we be true to our system of individual rights but take action to remove the stranglehold on people under Islam.

It is impossible I think to moderate Islam, the sooner people realise that the sooner we can deal with it in the most effective way.

I like Al Sina's approach.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 8, 2005 8:55 AM

As an antidote to "An Islamic History of Europe" and other such films, might I suggest the excellent, classic series by Lord Kenneth Clark, "A History of Civilizaton." I first watched the series while in college, used it as a teaching tool for my homeschooled daughter and will watch it again someday with my grandchildren. How our world has changed in 35 years! I don't live in Britain so I have no way of knowing if the BBC has or would ever again run the Kenneth Clark series.

Posted by: maryrose at April 8, 2005 11:22 AM

What's that rushing sound I hear overhead?

The doves of peace?

No, a little louder, and the shadows are a lot larger.

Ah....

It is the vultures returning to their European roost. In a huge crescent swath.

I guess they must smell that the pickings are ripe.

BBC must now mean:

Bloody Brainless Cowards

-since the English used to be the greatest historians on Earth, beginning with Gibbons' 'Decline of the Roman Empire'.

Time for an update, I guess.

Substitute "European Continent" for "Roman Empire, and you're done.

P.S. to granny weatherwax, etc-

I wish someone would print a book with the title:

"MOHAMMAD- THE PEDOPHILE PROPHET- his true story"

so I could carry that on trains.

Posted by: BigSleep at April 8, 2005 11:28 AM

Big Sleep
I understand that desk top publishing can be very economical.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at April 8, 2005 12:20 PM

My reaction to Islam's wonderful history is, "So what?" Just what bearing does that have on what Islam is doing today? None whatsoever.

Blow your horns as much as you like you'll never drown out the sound of the twin towers crashing down.

Any good that Islam may have brought to the world in the past is overshadowed by the horror it has brought to the world in the present.

Defenders of Islam, what is Islam doing for civilization today?

Posted by: f.g. at April 8, 2005 12:37 PM

Stage 1 - Get the public awareness up and counter all this Islam is a religion of peace bullshit.

This is really going to be tough one because Islam has the protection of being a "religion." Even if people think it's a false religion they aren't going to really say much about it publicly. One consideration is that their own religious freedom might be challanged at some point. Those who do speak out against Islam and try to compare and contrast their "true" religion with it only do more harm from what I can tell.

A deconstruction of Islam needs to happen in the public's eye. Islam needs to be revealed as the political ideology that it truely is. The "fear of God" was just a psychological tool Mohammad used to claim authority where he had none. We (non-muslims) need to stop refering to Islam as a religion period. Islam is not an ideology of peace. It is a cult where even thinking or speaking, let alone acting incorrectly can get you sentenced to death. It has no place in the modern world.

In short, Islam doesn't deserve to be called a religion. (this from an atheist!)

Posted by: f.g. at April 8, 2005 1:35 PM

f.g. Agree with you totally, but we need stage 2, I can think of no better figurehead than Al Sina.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 8, 2005 1:50 PM

PS. I am an atheist too.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 8, 2005 1:52 PM

I look forward to reviewing the series. Will it include the massacres in Cordoba of all that city's Jews, by Muslims, in 1066? Of the massacre of the Christians in Toledo, by Muslims? Will it include the "Epistle to the Yemen" in which Maimonides, who fled Muslim persecution in Cordoba, denounced the cruel treatment of Jews by Muslims? Will it discuss the origins of the myth of Andalucia as a construct of Western writers, including Chateaubriand (Le dernier des Abencerages) and Washington Irving (Tales of the Alhambra)?

Will it include details of the thousand years of Muslim military threats, which included not only the seizure of Spain, but on the other side, the seizure of large swaths of southeastern and central Europe, including present-day Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Will it include mention of the devshirme, that system of forced levy of Christian (and in some places) Jewish children for the army of the Padishah?

Will it include mention of the destruction of Orthodox and Catholic churches in the Balkans -- that is, in present-day Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Will it include mention of the wholesale appropriation of churches in Islamic-ruled Spain?

Will Rageh Omaar tell us about the more than one million Europeans kidnapped and enslaved and taken back to Muslim lands -- he could start with "White Gold" by Giles Milton (the story of Thomas Pellow) and go from there. Will he discuss the centuries of attacks up and down the coasts of Europe, by Muslim raiders, as far north as Ireland (the entire town of Baltimore razed, its inhabitants all seized) and even, in one instance, as far as Iceland? Perhaps he does not know where the phrase, in Italy, "Mamma gli turchi" comes from" -- so why doesn't he find out?

Will he simply tell us how wonderful the Muslims behaved themselves in multicultural Andalucia, in true Karen-Armstrong and Maria Rosa "Ornament-of-the-World" Menocal style? Will he do the same for the Muslims when they held Sicily? Will he consult historians, or only Carole Hillenbrand and other receivers of the King Faisal Prize for "Islamic studies/Services to Islam"?

Can't wait to see the show. In fact, we can all write the script now, can't we? But he'll supply the pictures -- the fountain gurgling in Cordoba, las gitanillas flowing over the wrought-iron balcony of the narrow whitewashed alley, the shades of Maimonides (who apparently came back to Cordoba for the BBC cameras), and one Muslim and one Christian scholar, walking hand in hand, dignified, their solemn whispers about First and Last Things not quite picked up by the camera's sound system over that still-gurgling fountain, with that water from the pure Guadalquivir, and the hint of jasmine, and of orange-blossom -- la juderia holiendo a azahar --and it was all so wonderful, and everyone got along so beautifully, and immortal works of art were created in Spain (think of all those paintings, all that sculpture, all that music in the spirit of Islam , created in Islamic Spain),

And it was the same in Ottoman-ruled Europe, in Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Under the Ottomans just think of how those lands flourished culturally. Before them there was what? A few Greek philosophers, but wasn't that really it? What did Serbia have? What did Bulgaria have? Ask Plato, ask Aristotle, ask Cyril and Methodius, ask Ivo Andric (see his recently-republished 1924 doctoral dissertation on the effect of Ottoman rule on culture and spiritual life in Serbia).

Raegh Omaar will undoubtedly prepare himself by first studying the great histories of European art and of science, and making sure to check with the recognized experts, not merely fishing around until he finds someone to sing the praises of Islam. For the history of science, he might talk to Toby Huff. For the history of art, why not get some advice from Pierre Rosenberg, or someone at the Courtauld?

Even now Omaar is no doubt immersing himself in Levi-Provencal, and Arnaldez on Ibn Hazm (of Cordoba, "ornament of the world"), and on Dufourcq so as to truly begin to understand Islamic Spain. And for this summer he has, no doubt, planned to read, as he mugs up Ottoman-ruled Europe, Demetrios Constantelos, and Angelov, and Vryonis and Alexandrescu-Dersca Bulgaru. If he can hold on, they will all be readily available in the forthcoming "The Legacy of Jihad" by Andrew Bostom.

Some may worry that this is going to be one more pseudo-history, one more sanitized tale of a misunderstood, wonderful Islam, in which some things will be exaggerated, others distorted, others omitted entirely.

But why would they do that? This is the BBC. The
notion that the BBC would think it could do such violendce to history (through omission, distortion, exaggeration), and avoid ridicule, is itself ridiculous.

Well, isn't it?

Posted by: Hugh at April 8, 2005 2:15 PM

I look forward to reviewing the series. Will it include the massacres in Cordoba of all that city's Jews, by Muslims, in 1066? Of the massacre of the Christians in Toledo, by Muslims? Will it include the "Epistle to the Yemen" in which Maimonides, who fled Muslim persecution in Cordoba, denounced the cruel treatment of Jews by Muslims? Will it discuss the origins of the myth of Andalucia as a construct of Western writers, including Chateaubriand (Le dernier des Abencerages) and Washington Irving (Tales of the Alhambra)?

Will it include details of the thousand years of Muslim military threats, which included not only the seizure of Spain, but on the other side, the seizure of large swaths of southeastern and central Europe, including present-day Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Will it include mention of the devshirme, that system of forced levy of Christian (and in some places) Jewish children for the army of the Padishah?

Will it include mention of the destruction of Orthodox and Catholic churches in the Balkans -- that is, in present-day Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Will it include mention of the wholesale appropriation of churches in Islamic-ruled Spain?

Will Rageh Omaar tell us about the more than one million Europeans kidnapped and enslaved and taken back to Muslim lands -- he could start with "White Gold" by Giles Milton (the story of Thomas Pellow) and go from there. Will he discuss the centuries of attacks up and down the coasts of Europe, by Muslim raiders, as far north as Ireland (the entire town of Baltimore razed, its inhabitants all seized) and even, in one instance, as far as Iceland? Perhaps he does not know where the phrase, in Italy, "Mamma gli turchi" comes from" -- so why doesn't he find out?

Will he simply tell us how wonderful the Muslims behaved themselves in multicultural Andalucia, in true Karen-Armstrong and Maria Rosa "Ornament-of-the-World" Menocal style? Will he do the same for the Muslims when they held Sicily? Will he consult historians, or only Carole Hillenbrand and other receivers of the King Faisal Prize for "Islamic studies/Services to Islam"?

Can't wait to see the show. In fact, we can all write the script now, can't we? But he'll supply the pictures -- the fountain gurgling in Cordoba, las gitanillas flowing over the wrought-iron balcony of the narrow whitewashed alley, the shades of Maimonides (who apparently came back to Cordoba for the BBC cameras), and one Muslim and one Christian scholar, walking hand in hand, dignified, their solemn whispers about First and Last Things not quite picked up by the camera's sound system over that still-gurgling fountain, with that water from the pure Guadalquivir, and the hint of jasmine, and of orange-blossom -- la juderia holiendo a azahar --and it was all so wonderful, and everyone got along so beautifully, and immortal works of art were created in Spain (think of all those paintings, all that sculpture, all that music in the spirit of Islam , created in Islamic Spain),

And it was the same in Ottoman-ruled Europe, in Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Under the Ottomans just think of how those lands flourished culturally. Before them there was what? A few Greek philosophers, but wasn't that really it? What did Serbia have? What did Bulgaria have? Ask Plato, ask Aristotle, ask Cyril and Methodius, ask Ivo Andric (see his recently-republished 1924 doctoral dissertation on the effect of Ottoman rule on culture and spiritual life in Serbia).

Raegh Omaar will undoubtedly prepare himself by first studying the great histories of European art and of science, and making sure to check with the recognized experts, not merely fishing around until he finds someone to sing the praises of Islam. For the history of science, he might talk to Toby Huff. For the history of art, why not get some advice from Pierre Rosenberg, or someone at the Courtauld?

Even now Omaar is no doubt immersing himself in Levi-Provencal, and Arnaldez on Ibn Hazm (of Cordoba, "ornament of the world"), and on Dufourcq so as to truly begin to understand Islamic Spain. And for this summer he has, no doubt, planned to read, as he mugs up Ottoman-ruled Europe, Demetrios Constantelos, and Angelov, and Vryonis and Alexandrescu-Dersca Bulgaru. If he can hold on, they will all be readily available in the forthcoming "The Legacy of Jihad" by Andrew Bostom.

Some may worry that this is going to be one more pseudo-history, one more sanitized tale of a misunderstood, wonderful Islam, in which some things will be exaggerated, others distorted, others omitted entirely.

But why would they do that? This is the BBC. The
notion that the BBC would think it could do such violendce to history (through omission, distortion, exaggeration), and avoid ridicule, is itself ridiculous.

Isn't it?

Posted by: Hugh at April 8, 2005 2:15 PM

I look forward to reviewing the series. Will it include the massacres in Cordoba of all that city's Jews, by Muslims, in 1066? Of the massacre of the Christians in Toledo, by Muslims? Will it include the "Epistle to the Yemen" in which Maimonides, who fled Muslim persecution in Cordoba, denounced the cruel treatment of Jews by Muslims? Will it discuss the origins of the myth of Andalucia as a construct of Western writers, including Chateaubriand (Le dernier des Abencerages) and Washington Irving (Tales of the Alhambra)?

Will it include details of the thousand years of Muslim military threats, which included not only the seizure of Spain, but on the other side, the seizure of large swaths of southeastern and central Europe, including present-day Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Will it include mention of the devshirme, that system of forced levy of Christian (and in some places) Jewish children for the army of the Padishah?

Will it include mention of the destruction of Orthodox and Catholic churches in the Balkans -- that is, in present-day Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Will it include mention of the wholesale appropriation of churches in Islamic-ruled Spain?

Will Rageh Omaar tell us about the more than one million Europeans kidnapped and enslaved and taken back to Muslim lands -- he could start with "White Gold" by Giles Milton (the story of Thomas Pellow) and go from there. Will he discuss the centuries of attacks up and down the coasts of Europe, by Muslim raiders, as far north as Ireland (the entire town of Baltimore razed, its inhabitants all seized) and even, in one instance, as far as Iceland? Perhaps he does not know where the phrase, in Italy, "Mamma gli turchi" comes from" -- so why doesn't he find out?

Will he simply tell us how wonderful the Muslims behaved themselves in multicultural Andalucia, in true Karen-Armstrong and Maria Rosa "Ornament-of-the-World" Menocal style? Will he do the same for the Muslims when they held Sicily? Will he consult historians, or only Carole Hillenbrand and other receivers of the King Faisal Prize for "Islamic studies/Services to Islam"?

Can't wait to see the show. In fact, we can all write the script now, can't we? But he'll supply the pictures -- the fountain gurgling in Cordoba, las gitanillas flowing over the wrought-iron balcony of the narrow whitewashed alley, the shades of Maimonides (who apparently came back to Cordoba for the BBC cameras), and one Muslim and one Christian scholar, walking hand in hand, dignified, their solemn whispers about First and Last Things not quite picked up by the camera's sound system over that still-gurgling fountain, with that water from the pure Guadalquivir, and the hint of jasmine, and of orange-blossom -- la juderia holiendo a azahar --and it was all so wonderful, and everyone got along so beautifully, and immortal works of art were created in Spain (think of all those paintings, all that sculpture, all that music in the spirit of Islam , created in Islamic Spain),

And it was the same in Ottoman-ruled Europe, in Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania, and much of Hungary? Under the Ottomans just think of how those lands flourished culturally. Before them there was what? A few Greek philosophers, but wasn't that really it? What did Serbia have? What did Bulgaria have? Ask Plato, ask Aristotle, ask Cyril and Methodius, ask Ivo Andric (see his recently-republished 1924 doctoral dissertation on the effect of Ottoman rule on culture and spiritual life in Serbia).

Raegh Omaar will undoubtedly prepare himself by first studying the great histories of European art and of science, and making sure to check with the recognized experts, not merely fishing around until he finds someone to sing the praises of Islam. For the history of science, he might talk to Toby Huff. For the history of art, why not get some advice from Pierre Rosenberg, or someone at the Courtauld?

Even now Omaar is no doubt immersing himself in Levi-Provencal, and Arnaldez on Ibn Hazm (of Cordoba, "ornament of the world"), and on Dufourcq so as to truly begin to understand Islamic Spain. And for this summer he has, no doubt, planned to read, as he mugs up Ottoman-ruled Europe, Demetrios Constantelos, and Angelov, and Vryonis and Alexandrescu-Dersca Bulgaru. If he can hold on, they will all be readily available in the forthcoming "The Legacy of Jihad" by Andrew Bostom.

Some may worry that this is going to be one more pseudo-history, one more sanitized tale of a misunderstood, wonderful Islam, in which some things will be exaggerated, others distorted, others omitted entirely.

But why would they do that? This is the BBC. The
notion that the BBC would think it could do such violendce to history (through omission, distortion, exaggeration), and avoid ridicule, is itself ridiculous.

Well, isn't it?

Posted by: Hugh at April 8, 2005 2:16 PM

The entire list of CAIR sponsored library materials is available at www.cair-net.org. One can visit the site and check to see CAIR's "progrss," state by state.

Posted by: WatchfulEye at April 8, 2005 06:40 AM

This should demonstrate how backward these clowns at CAIR are. Let them put all the literature they want into the libraries, since everyone these days goes to the Internet for their information. Let it sit there and collect dust. Or, it can all be gathered up for the bonfires the schools have during football season.

Posted by: Prickzilla at April 8, 2005 2:24 PM

Webster's Dictionary

Dumbest criminal dhimmi in the world-Jacques Chirac

Posted by: Prickzilla at April 8, 2005 2:26 PM

This is part of Europe´s Dance of Death

We´ll get to hear many stupid things from EU bureaucrats. The stuff terminally ill people get from nurses, doctors and priests in the final days.

Euro-governments are more than willing to lie about the history of "Europe vs. Islam".

Their sole goal is to avoid a low intensity war across the Old Continent. Kosovo was enough, thank you.

The peoples of Europe might not see eye to eye with their elected? representatives in their determination to avoid The Greater Evil. After all, as P. Chaunu put it, old nations are the deadliest, for they have nothing left to lose. Whatever. It wont make much of a difference, though. Take a look at those birthrates...

Maybe Europenas could deign to improve those birthrates..?

Absurd.

Twenty or thirty years from now, we all wil be at the mercy of Muslims, old outnumbered and terrified, and war will be impossible.

Nice work, mr. Blair. You spared us a disaster.

Posted by: olencratz at April 8, 2005 2:48 PM

BBC Online pro-Islam, pro-Arab propaganda has been in full swing of late. And what does this propaganda arm of Islam have for us today?

Well, two featured pictorial series on Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/in_pictures_iraqi_lives_two_years_after_saddam/html/1.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4397615.stm

Of course, smiling, gentile, attractive, well-spoken Saudi women tell us of their dreams and ambitions. It is revealed that they cannot vote or drive, among other things, but, alas, Saudi Arabia is changing. Can't you just 'feel it'? Nothing to fear from the Saud Kingdom and Wahhabi Islam, is there?

In the Iraqi pictorial the last testimony comes from an alluring, young woman, who picture is featured on the World Page as I write. Again, very attractive. Make one want to say, 'hello'. And what does she say,

"The Americans brought the terrorists here. They weren't here before. And I don't believe the terrorists are Muslims.

The Americans search our houses. With their aggressive behavior, they are turning the Iraqis against them."

But, of course, this is just a report. No BBC bias is placement of the story, the photo, the prominence, nor is there any need to report any kind of context because this is merely a report of testimony.

And the other pictorial featured on the World online page? A report on Guantanamo trials with a picture of a hand and Islamic prayer beads grasping a metal fence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4422825.stm

But there is more. On the middle east pages today it is reported that Hezbollah is willing to disarm, if those pesky Jews will just hand over some land,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4423913.stm

And, Israeli police must protect poor Muslims on the Temple Mount from 'Jewish extremists'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4424185.stm

And in Jerusalem, Jews have been arrested over 'bombs', the headline reads, albiet, the bombs were fake,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4420875.stm

Also, on this day when attractive Arab women speak so eloquently about American violence, hopes, ambitions, dedication to 'religion', i.e. Islam, the belief that Muslims are not capable of terrorism, on this day when 'extremist' Jews are ready to storm the Temple Mount and plant bombs, uh, fake bombs, on this very day, the poor victims of American violence in Falluja return to their destroyed city.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4421959.stm

The BBC proves day by day that Bat Ye'or is absolutely correct: European media conspire to influence acceptance of the integration of the Arab-Muslim world with Europe; and this effort naturally involves demonizing both America and Israel.

Posted by: JTF at April 8, 2005 2:54 PM

Robert the cultural renaissance was in fact aided by Islam, but not as the apologists suggest.

1453 is in many ways of more important than 1492, becausw 1453 is the date that the Muslims captured Constantinople, the event resulted in a flight of philosophers (scientists), artists and intellectuals from the Byzantine Empire to the City States of Italy from whence the fertilized the nascent renaissance.

But the Muslims contributed nothing at all to the renaissance.

I haven't read your latest book, it is still on back order, but Serge Trifkovic covers this briefly in The Sword of the Prophet, and he also deals most effectively with the Myth of the Islamic Golden Age.

Posted by: Giaour at April 8, 2005 4:45 PM

"1453 is in many ways of more important than 1492, becausw 1453 is the date that the Muslims captured Constantinople, the event resulted in a flight of philosophers (scientists), artists and intellectuals from the Byzantine Empire to the City States of Italy from whence the fertilized the nascent renaissance..."

But the Renaissance was not nascent by 1453, but in full bloom. However, scholars from Byzantium had been fleeing long before 1453 -- when the city finally fell, it contained only 50,000 residents. For several hundred years people had been fleeing the Ottoman Turks who merely continued what the Seljuk Turks began. And Constantinople was the last bastion to fall; before that the Turks had taken large swaths of territory in Europe itself.

The manuscripts brought by Byzantine scholars in many cases came before 1453 and the Fall of Constantinople. One example: the Library of Cardinal Bessarion:

"In 1438 Bessarion (1403 - 1472) was sent by the Emperor John VIII Palaeologos to the Council of Ferrara/Florence to plead for western support in Constantinople's final struggle against the Ottoman Turks.

Despite the failure of the council to dispatch aid to Byzantine Empire, Pope Eugenius IV recognised Bessarion's constructive role in the deliberations by making him a cardinal. Bessarion remained in Italy and in 1463 was made Patriarch of Constantinople, by then in Turkish hands, by Pope Pius II.

In July 1463, Pius II sent Bessarion to Venice as legate a latere. In order to win the favour of a city notorious for its reluctance to allow credit to any 'foreign' notable, Bessarion donated his celebrated library of Greek manuscripts to the city, where they became the nucleus of the Biblioteca Marciana."

The Byzantine Empire had recovered, and was flourishing in the 10th and 11th centuries. It has pushed back against the Abbasids. Then along came the Turks from Asia -- first the Seljuks, then the Ottomans, eating away at territory. Culturally they were far more primitive (and soon islamized), militarily more powerful. It did not help that Christians were split -- Latin from Byzantine Christians, or that Venice had its own rivalry with Genoa, and both wanted to protect their trading outposts (Galata, Odessa, other Black Sea ports). Constaninople the first city of the West, fell, with a thud. A century ago, there was Russian talk of taking "Tsargrad" (Constantinople). Disunity among Christian powers, dithering, the usual explanations, prevented this from happening. The population of the city in 1914 was 50% non-Muslim. Might it have been taken by the Russians? What would that have meant for the future of Islam? For the West?

Things to think about.

Posted by: Hugh at April 8, 2005 5:52 PM

Would love to see a comedy series made in the vein of "Yes Minister".
The BBC might be portrayed as an institution bordering on a mental asylum, where the "client" is the general public.
In the background shadowy academic leftist figures- hydroponic suppliers of leftism,produce the BBC staff,like young GM leftist Orchids, masters of deception, who perniciously trick the population of public insects into believing they are exactly what they are not.
(Jesus James Angleton, a great Orchid collector had mused that if his spies were as cunning as orchids, They would have won the cold war in a week.)
Unfortunately , the Best comedy writers have always worked for the BBC and are unlikely to become carnivorous,cannabalistic, plants!

Posted by: chevalier de st george at April 9, 2005 1:46 AM

Those who do speak out against Islam and try to compare and contrast their "true" religion with it only do more harm from what I can tell. ~ f.g

With all due respect f.g

Webster’s definition of religion :
1 a : the state of a religious ( a nun in her 20th year of religion ) b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

According to the 2nd and 4th definition, all people have a “religion”. An example would be, someone who is an atheist, agnostic, secular humanist, holds to those beliefs, that becomes their “religion”.
Recently I read a poster here that said something to the effect of, “I can’t wait until America is purely secular in nature” apparently believing that organized religion is the scourge of society, what the poster failed to realize was secular ideas are a “religion”.
Anytime two different principles or ideas meet, religion is being compared and contrasted.

Bar

Posted by: Bar at April 9, 2005 3:26 PM