Hmmm....I wonder if he'd feel the same if the roles were reversed and it was men that were being castrated.

Posted by: Giggle-Puss the Brave at May 13, 2005 10:04 AM

Giggle-Puss the brave, what a fantastic nick!

Exactly the same thought went through my mind.

'It's just an ordinary th...eeeeeeeooooooochhhhh!!'

Posted by: Interested at May 13, 2005 10:20 AM

Actually castration isn't analogous to FGM. What I would like to see is someone to come up to Alhaji Banding Drammeh and say we will now circumcise the boys when they are 12 years old and do it with a glass shard or rustry knife - no anethesia of course.

Posted by: johnb at May 13, 2005 10:31 AM

johnb:

Yeah, I know, but it would kill 2 birds with 1 stone. It would prove a point as well as cut down on the reproduction.

Posted by: Giggle-Puss the Brave at May 13, 2005 10:41 AM

I think a Koranic verse or two could be found to justify adult male genital mutilation.

Even the infamous sura about "strike at their necks" could be re-read to mean something different in location and dimension but similar enough in analogy to allow women in Islam to take up the knife and make sure that their Muslim men become just as "honored" as the girls.

Let them shout their "Allahu Akbar"'s during that.

Posted by: BigSleep at May 13, 2005 11:03 AM

A male Muslim's genitals cannot be mutilated, for they cannot be found.

Posted by: DCWatson at May 13, 2005 11:12 AM

Honour (I'm using British spelling here) means something very strange in Islam.

In the West, honour is either about being brave or sometimes being privileged. It is also about pouring drinks (do the honours). All quite nice things really.

In Islam, honour is about murdering women or slicing their genitals off.

Posted by: Interested at May 13, 2005 11:15 AM

DC Watson - would that were true, then there wouldn't be so many of them!

Posted by: Interested at May 13, 2005 11:17 AM

Thank you for the critique, but I was referring to their lack of courage and their bullying of women.

Regards,

D.C.

Posted by: DCWatson at May 13, 2005 11:42 AM

DC- yes, I know what you meant. Lack of courage and bullying of wemen are two sides of the same Islamic coin.

Posted by: Interested at May 13, 2005 12:23 PM

And just think, when Lt. Gen. James Mattis, a career infantry officer who is now in charge of developing better ways to train and equip Marines said "Actually, it's a lot of fun to fight. You know, it's a hell of a hoot. ... It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right up front with you, I like brawling." "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

CAIR got upset. Even though Mattis told the truth. You have Muslim women beaters,then you have the bootlickers who apologize for them.

Posted by: DCWatson at May 13, 2005 12:42 PM

Note this crucial line describing the position of the Muslims who oppose female genital mutilation:

"there is no injunction in the Qur’an or the “authentic Hadiths” of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) recommending the practice."

This clearly implies that if they thought that female genital mutilation WERE supported by the Koran or the Hadiths, then it would be okay and good. Thus, even when Muslims are activist progressives, they are still bound by an archaic, barbaric 9th-century text.

A similar Muslim logic was at play when in 2003 the Nigerian woman was on trial for adultery with the punishment being stoning to death: her female Muslim lawyer, Hauwa Ibrahim, won her appeal not on the basis that stoning a woman to death (who happens to have become pregnant out of wedlock) is in and of itself hideously immoral and barbaric, but on loopholes she managed to find in Sharia. The "victory" of Amina Lawal thus was a hollow victory which clearly implies that any barbaric punishment is good if it can be found to be in accord with the Koran and the Hadiths.

"The appeals panel declared the woman's conviction unlawful because she wasn't given enough time to understand the case against her and because only one judge, instead of a panel of three, presided at her trial."

http://www.nupge.ca/news_2003/n26se03a.htm

"Judge Mohammed Tambari-Uthman said that because the alleged act had taken place before adultery became a criminal offence under Islamic law, her case should be dismissed."

"The first court... that convicted her did not follow the appropriate procedure. The police report also did not give all the necessary information related to the offence..."

Etc.

Posted by: metaxy at May 13, 2005 1:00 PM

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/index.htm

Scroll down, I don't think the little girl in the picture had any say in her mutilation.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 13, 2005 1:07 PM

Even if they don't see the hibaj and veil as oppressive, I cannot understand why western feminists are so silent about this.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 13, 2005 1:53 PM

Thank you Carolyn2,

The next time one of my leftists associates sends me an email admonishing me on my "anti-Muslim" bias, or some B.S. leftist link. I will forward them this link showing them the REAL oppressors of those who had the grave misfortune of being born into Islam.

I want them to see this site on a full stomach. The physical discomfort might enhance their long overdue psychological catharsis.

Posted by: Andrei Rublev at May 13, 2005 1:57 PM

johnb:

Actually, FGM IS analogous to penile (not testicular) castration, not to male circumcision, as the entire clitoris is removed "at the root", leaving a complete lack of any sexual sensation whatsoever.

Read the following:

http://www.challenging-islam.org/articles/circumcision.htm

Posted by: CGW at May 13, 2005 3:32 PM

This really is disgusting. And yet we are supposed to "celebrate" diversity. What a crock of $hit. It is a backward, barabaric third world superstition. Who else would come up with something so stupid as an ignorant, cave dwelling savage ? And how the heck does he (it will have been a male) get people to go along with it. "Hey parents, god says we need to slice and trim up our daughters vaginas. Seems he's not happy with the original design and can't be bothered starting again so we will have to make the modification ourselves. Phuh, *roll of eyes* god hey, who said he is perfect? Will it hurst you ask ? Well duh !! Right, who's first ?"

Posted by: ReligionOfPeaceMyArse at May 13, 2005 3:56 PM

Estimates of the numbers and percentages of women who suffer female genital mutilation in
Africa
Country % women # of women millions
Nigeria 60 32.8
Egypt 80 24.2
Ethiopia 90 23.9
Sudan 89 9.7
Kenya 50 6.8
Somalia 98 4.5
Mali 80 4.3
Cote d'Ivoire 60 4.1
Burkina Faso 70 3.5
Ghana 30 2.6
Sierra Leone 90 2.0
Chad 60 1.9
Eritrea 90 1.6
Guinea 50 1.6
Tanzania 10 1.5
Benin 50 1.3
Cameroon 20 1.3
Zaire 5 1.1
Togo 50 1.0
Liberia 60 0.9
Niger 20 0.9
Senegal 20 0.8
Gambia 89 0.5
Uganda 5 0.5
Djibouti 98 0.3
Guinea-Bissau 50 0.3
Mauritania 25 0.3

Posted by: shiva at May 13, 2005 4:06 PM

From the link I posted above:

" The male equivalent of infibulation (which involves not only clitoridectomy, but the removal or closing off of the sensitive tissue around the vagina) would be removal of all the penis, its roots of soft tissue, and part of the scrotal skin.'(Nahid Toubia, Female Genital Mutilation, p.9) Unlike FGM, male circumcision is not performed with the aim of diminishing the sexual desire or drive of the male, nor to ensure chastity or virginity."

This is just barbaric.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 13, 2005 5:52 PM

Female genital mutilation is "An Honor" and of course an unmutilated female would be "A Shame."

Black is white, good is bad. What's that you say? The emperor has no clothes?

The peoples furthest from civilization are the ones where equality between man and woman are furthest apart--and we consider this one of the signs of savagery.
Mark Twain

Posted by: butterfly at May 13, 2005 8:05 PM

“FGM is a recommendation of the hadiths of the Prophet. It is an honour for a lady to undergo the practice of FGM,’’ Drammeh said.

OK Drammeh.. let's strap you down spread eagle and cut of your dick. Let the muslim audience watch you bleed to death while you squirm in pain, as the blood spurts out of your dick and onto the spectators. (Surely all chances of your future dicktatorship are null). While you are undergoing your MGM, the audience will of course shout, "allah akbar". What an honour for you! You are now a new, free dickless wonder. How praiseworthy. Now, let's go blow the crap out of some infidels!

Enjoy your male genital mutilation! The funny thing is, most muslim males never had a dick to begin with, so no big loss :o)

Posted by: SexyKafira1 at May 13, 2005 8:29 PM

Thanks for the web site Carolyn2.

Posted by: dby at May 13, 2005 11:17 PM

www.path.org/files/ FGM-The-Facts.htm

Posted by: sonofwalker at May 14, 2005 12:15 AM

One of the complications of a woman bring infubulated is the scar tissue can cause a very prolonged labor. This can cause an opening to form between the vagina and the rectum, and resulting complications..

http://www.fistulafoundation.org/aboutfistula/

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 14, 2005 1:14 AM

The 'African Centre' in Covent Garden, London used to house a charity called 'Forward' which campaigned against this sort of thing.

When I visited a few years ago, they had gone and the member of staff I asked said he didn't know where to.

They didn't appear to have any books on this although they had some in the window on Bosnia and Slobadan Milosevic.

I don't think that they wanted to have anything in there which was counter to the argument that all the problems in Africa are caused by whites.

Posted by: Elephant at May 14, 2005 4:21 AM

Granny Weatherwax,

Western Feminists are silent about this because they only speak out when it is making capitalism look bad. If this pracitise was a result of Western imperialism then they wouldn't stop shouting and demonstrating.

Also they've swallowed the notion that it is racist to criticise other peoples' cultures.

Posted by: Elephant at May 14, 2005 4:28 AM

Also they've swallowed the notion that it is racist to criticise other peoples' cultures.

The first ever TV documentary I saw about FGM (and there have not been many since, I know this was mid 80s because of where I was working and my colleagues at that time, below) ended with an Egyptian Doctor, who spent much of her time in a Cairo A&E mending brides saying
"This isn't culture, this is child abuse."
But I think she was a lone voice.

In those days my team was two young men, the younger was white British and the slightly older was a Pakistani Moslem. Next morning the younger took some trouble to explain to the Pakistani what was done to these children in detail. He had no idea that it was done, (he was a bit naive), and his horror was genuine. But I don't see any sign of horrified Pakistani Moslems pressurising their brothers and sisters that it should stop.

OT, is the African centre still there in Covent Garden, I haven't been there for ages?

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 14, 2005 6:13 AM

Western feminists will make excuses for Islam re the FGM issue by stating it was around before Islam and that other non-Islamic people also did/do it. From what I've read, Christian missionaries in Africa actively try to discourage this practise, while Muslims, predictably, either encourage it, or turn a blind eye to it. Afterall, it's such a wonderful tool to subjugate your women, isn't it? Why discourage such a useful way to keep your women under your boot? That's the way Islam maintains power - by keeping its women as joyless, terrorized breeders. And if they die during childbirth or from infection after this barbaric procedure, ho hum, who cares, they're just women afterall.

Posted by: feralee at May 14, 2005 6:22 AM

This is typical of Mohammed and his followers getting it wrong from the other religions. Circumcision was for the males only Mohammed! It is not for boys and girls. You are just supposed to cut the foreskin of newborn boys. It is interesting that in the fatwah Alhaji Banding Drammeh says "you" can or "you" do not have to circumcise the girl. Notice that his comments are addressed to others as she has no say in the matter whatsoever in this otherwise unobligatory religious act. I suppose that it has escaped the learned immams attention that the fact "she" has no say in it whatsoever will not be used to show how little respect, dignity and freedom Islam has for women contrary to its false and ridiculous claim that it brought women more freedom than they had 7th century Arabia. Indeed, some historians who have studied this matter have concluded that the Prophet brought them even less than they had before the Prophet revealed to Allah's followers the immutable laws Allah has made concerning the only and correct law a follower can assert upon the follower's woman or his slave.

Posted by: David England at May 14, 2005 7:52 AM

This is typical of Mohammed and his followers getting it wrong from the other religions. Circumcision was for the males only Mohammed! It is not for boys and girls. You are just supposed to cut the foreskin of newborn boys. It is interesting that in the fatwah Alhaji Banding Drammeh says "you" can or "you" do not have to circumcise the girl. Notice that his comments are addressed to others as she has no say in the matter whatsoever in this otherwise unobligatory religious act. I suppose that it has escaped the learned immams attention that the fact "she" has no say in it whatsoever will not be used to show how little respect, dignity and freedom Islam has for women contrary to its false and ridiculous claim that it brought women more freedom than they had 7th century Arabia. Indeed, some historians who have studied this matter have concluded that the Prophet brought them even less than they had before the Prophet revealed to Allah's followers the immutable laws Allah has made concerning the only and correct law a follower can assert upon the follower's woman or his slave.

Posted by: David England at May 14, 2005 7:52 AM

This is typical of Mohammed and his followers getting it wrong from the other religions. Circumcision was for the males only Mohammed! It is not for boys and girls. You are just supposed to cut the foreskin of newborn boys. It is interesting that in the fatwah Alhaji Banding Drammeh says "you" can or "you" do not have to circumcise the girl. Notice that his comments are addressed to others as she has no say in the matter whatsoever in this otherwise unobligatory religious act. I suppose that it has escaped the learned immams attention that the fact "she" has no say in it whatsoever will not be used to show how little respect, dignity and freedom Islam has for women contrary to its false and ridiculous claim that it brought women more freedom than they had 7th century Arabia. Indeed, some historians who have studied this matter have concluded that the Prophet brought them even less than they had before the Prophet revealed to Allah's followers the immutable laws Allah has made concerning the only and correct law a follower can assert upon the follower's woman or his slave.

Posted by: David England at May 14, 2005 7:53 AM

So now FGM is the fault of "Western Feminists", "leftist" and anyone else not part of the great Conservative ascendency? I have heard everything.

In my time in the US and UK I have met numerous FEMINISTS that were actively opposed to FGM. Many of them gave considerable sums of money and time to organisations which fight FGM (how many here can say that?).

One reason for the 'silence' you preceive (again when have you spoken out before now) is that feminists were heavily involved since the colonial era in trying to fight these practices. The African women themselves rejected this intervention and that has left a major challenge for current efforts. As someone from a former European colony (India) I cannot emphasise enough the impact of colonialism on people's minds.

3 prominent western groups working against FGM:
1. The Godparents' Association: http://www.godparents.net/
2. Tostan: www.tostan.org
3. Womankind Worldwide: http://www.womankind.org.uk/resources/issues/fgm.html

I must say I do not appreciate the assault on "Western Feminsits" here. Many here waste more of your bile on your liberal-minded countrymen than on the Muslims who are actually commiting terrorist acts, FGM, etc. Most of this appears to be based on a deep and frightening hatred of 'the left' as drilled into you by the Conservative movement every day.

Like it or not Islam is the epitome of CONSERVATIVE thought. It wants society to stand still and to resist all progress. Should you consider yourself Conservative address your discomfort in a self-critical manner rather than lashing out as a child at others.

I am proud to call myself a feminist, Hindu, and probably other things you snigger at and deride. The self-righteous Christian Conservative mindset often manifest here will be the death of you all when they alienate every last non-Muslim Asian, African, and European not to mention all the other non-religious people in American society.

If you really want to struggle against Islam then first address your own tendancies towards fundamentalism and anti-progressive (conservative) thinking.

Posted by: kali at May 14, 2005 8:10 AM

Kali you make some good points. Of course it is first and foremost the perpetrators of a crime who should be criticised, and only second those who aid and abet, or turn a blind eye.

Where some of the venom directed at the left may be coming from is that left wing policies, notably multiculturalism have been actively bad for elements within cultures, particularly women.

In the 80s in Bradford a very brave headmaster (Honeyford?) took a stance against multiculturalism, by insisting that Muslim girls, against the wishes of their reactionary parents, learned to swim. The left-wing consensus at the time was that this was racist, and he was hounded out of his job.

So the girls didn't learn to swim. They may have married some neanderthal cousin from 'home' and stuck in their ghettos.

And the left wing feminists? Silent.

Posted by: Interested at May 14, 2005 8:44 AM

Interested, I think that's the same point I was trying to make. Perhaps I did not put it well. In the 70s and 80s I was what was then called a feminist. Raising funds for the first battered women's refuge in the town where I studied. Marching across Hyde Park in 1974 support of the Sex Discrimination Bill (Act in 1975), chanting Woman should decide her fate, not the church and not the state. Quite difficult to do in platform boots let me tell you. I won't post here about my field of work during the 1980s and 90s. My views didn't really change. They just developed a little in the detail, with maturity and motherhood. What changed was that I no longer find myself in complete agreement with those who now call themselves feminists, to the extend that I am no longer regarded as one.

So Kali, what to do. What are you working on in this area, that you are able to share with us without compromising yourself, this being a forum where we need to be discreet? I will have a look at the sites you linked to.

And where have I or any other posters here ever sniggered at your Hindu faith?

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 14, 2005 9:09 AM

These people are a shame for mankind, I thank to Saint Paul for avoiding us circumcission, thanks to God.

Posted by: Franze at May 14, 2005 9:42 AM

The Godparents scheme looks good, seems to cover similar ground to two organisations I am more familiar with.
http://www.themothersunion.org/content.asp?iid=77
and http://www.worldvision.org/8525644B006FF375/0/467D1A5C73A4854288256EA6006AA8D0?Open

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 14, 2005 10:28 AM

Re: Granny Weatherwax
What do I do?

FGM is not practised in India, not even among Muslims. I oppose male circumcision as well, but this is unknown in the Hindu community, and even if I were a physician intervention by a Hindu female in this Islamic practise would utterly fail (in fact any non-Muslim, male or female, would risk their life even to attempt it).

Even though I come from the upper middle class of India,
I earn relatively little compared to Western professionals in a comparible position. So giving money on the int'l scale is not really an option. India has many problems of its own as I have never denied. Thus in my view I can do the most good by focusing on local matters such as dismantling varna (caste) and the host of issues connected to female marriage customs (female infanticide, dowry, child marriages), so that is where my time and money goes.

Regarding disrespect towards Hinduism, I recall in particular some comments made against my choice of 'Kali' as oppossed to the goddess I am actually named after as a username. I was writing above more generally, with regards to some very negative experiences in the US and to a lesser extent UK (where South Asaian now equals Muslim).

Posted by: kali at May 14, 2005 11:36 AM

Kali
I sometimes feel that the local issues I am involved with in the UK are small fry compared with these big international problems but I keep reminding myself of the Jewish saying that is said at the end of Shindlers Ark, (or List as it was filmed) If you save one life you save the world. So all the little things that individuals like you and me and all the others do adds up. A Mother and Toddler club here and a literacy project there will have an effect if enough of us keep trying.
Thanks again for pointing to those links.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 14, 2005 12:44 PM

" with regards to some very negative experiences in the US and to a lesser extent UK (where South Asaian now equals Muslim)."

Kali, I can't speak for all Americans, but I am sorry if you had trouble in my country because of your faith. I see Hindus as allies in this fight for our very lives.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 14, 2005 2:45 PM

I was a midwife for years. After one of my births in hospital, a doctor I was friendly with called me in to help with a lady having her second child. She was veiled from head to toe, he was checking her progress only by feel as she wouldn't allow him to look at her, and her screaming was, in my opinion, way out of control. The doctor then took me outside and explained that she had horrible scarring from her circumcision, and then took me back in. He then told her it was time to check again, and she removed the long black garment. I came closer to fainting than I ever have in my entire life, and I am NOT at all squeamish.

After a horrific birth, she was insistant upon being sewn up very tightly again, unnaturally so. I was told that she came in with frequent urinary tract infections amongst other complaints, and all due to the circ. barbaric doesn't even come close. There is no male equivalent. I have attended male circs and have had four boys circumcised by a mohel, and ...well, just that there is nothing in the world which can compare to the horror of what that poor woman looked like. Oh- except that the baby I saw delivered? It was a girl. They intended to travel that summer in order to have that godforsaken procedure performed on the poor little thing.

Posted by: libbysmom at May 14, 2005 9:40 PM

Carolyn2 - totally agree - Hindus are our allies.

Libbysmom - that makes me so angry. The poor woman.

Posted by: Interested at May 15, 2005 5:28 AM

Most of you probably know that David (of the Bible) collected two hundred 200, Philistine foreskins to get Bathsheebas hand . The question is, just how does one go about collecting 200 Philistine foreskins??

Posted by: duh_swami at May 15, 2005 4:15 PM

duh_swami-

"..how does one go about collecting 200 Philistine foreskins?"

First, you get a VERY BIG mohel...

Posted by: BigSleep at May 15, 2005 11:41 PM