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Update on this story. I never liked this guy's sign: it just feeds the perception that resistance to jihad terrorism is all motivated by bigotry and Christian triumphalism. It helps the appeasers of jihad to think they have the moral high ground. If a mosque had put up a sign saying "The Bible should be flushed," the same people who were excited about this sign would be outraged.
However, at the same time the sign was a manifestation of the freedom of our society. Christians in America today don't have to look hard to find numerous examples of their religion being ridiculed and denigrated, and if they complain they are warned against censorship and reminded of the parameters of a free society. And it's certainly true that if a society is going to stand for non-establishment of a religion and freedom in religious matters, that must include the freedom to reject a religion, and even to criticize and ridicule it publicly. If Muslims in the West cannot allow for this without resorting to threats and violence, then the very foundations of Western societies will be shaken.
Of course, in this case there were no threats and violence. Just pressure from CAIR. I am not sure whether that is a distinction with a difference, since CAIR still has the power to tar as bigoted and hateful anyone it opposes. This will have to be addressed sooner or later, if our freedoms are to be preserved.
It is also noteworthy that this press release from CAIR is headed: "N.C. Pastor Apologizes For Anti-Muslim Sign," although the sign was actually anti-Qur'an, not anti-Muslim -- a distinction CAIR insists on blurring. A CAIR press release:
CAIR applauds removal of message as boost for Christian-Muslim relationsWASHINGTON, May 26 /PRNewswire/ -- The Council on American-Islamic
Relations (CAIR) today applauded the decision of a North Carolina Baptist pastor to apologize for an anti-Muslim sign displayed outside his Forest City church.Danieltown Baptist Church Pastor Rev. Creighton Lovelace had previously refused calls to take down the sign, reading "The Koran needs to be flushed," posted in front of his church.
CAIR reacted to the controversy by calling on mainstream religious and
political leaders to repudiate the sign's bigoted message. The Washington-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group also urged Americans of all faiths to obtain and read a free Quran available through CAIR's new "Explore the Quran" campaign. Several thousand people have already taken advantage of CAIR's offer.
I hope people will read the Qur'an, although I haven't seen which translation CAIR is offering and don't know if it's jimmied. I hope people will read Sura 9 with particular attention, and then get back to me.
In today's apology, Lovelace said in part:"When I posted the sign in front of the church, it was my intent only to affirm and exalt the Bible and its teachings. It was certainly not my intent to insult any people of faith, but instead to remind the people in this community of the preeminence of God's Word.
"When I posted the message on the sign, I did not realize how people of the Muslim faith view the Koran-that devoted Muslims view it more highly than many in the U.S. view the Bible.
"Now I realize how offensive this is to them, and after praying about it, I have chosen to remove the sign. I apologize for posting that message and deeply regret that it has offended so many in the Muslim community."...
"We thank Pastor Lovelace for his apology and hope this incident will
serve to improve relations between Christians and Muslims in North Carolina and throughout America," said CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad. Awad suggested that American churches and mosques host Muslim-Christian dialogues on Jesus, who is revered by both faiths.
I hope they do that too: as long as it is done honestly, with reference, for example, to some of the points I raised here.
Posted by Robert at May 26, 2005 7:28 AM
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Any alleged Christian who speaks generically of "people of faith" is speaking contrary to the clear teachings of the Bible. Aside from Jews, who also worship "God the Father", (but do not acknowledge Jesus as the Christ) other religions such as Islam do not worship the same God. Speaking of "people of faith" perpetuates the error that other other faiths are also acceptable to God and Christians.
As I posted previously in response to the initial article, Christians are admonished to be intolerant of idolatry and heresy. The orthodox Christian (as in traditional and biblically supportable) view of Islam is that it is a CULT -- the "Mohammedan cult".
Posted by: info_tech_guy![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at May 26, 2005 8:03 AM
OK, so now CAIR should take its turn to apologize for their actions over the past 11 years. If they ever did, it would take days.
Posted by: DCWatson at May 26, 2005 8:13 AM
How about this sign:
WHEREAS
Muhammad was a pedophile: he had sex with his 9 year old bride.
Muhammad authorized the use of torture to extract where 'treasure' was hidden.
Muhammad responded with glee and praise as the heads of his detractors were thrown at his feet.
Muhammad is a thief who raided caravans and stole other's hard earned money in the name of Allah.
Muhammad beheaded a whole defenseless tribe, the Banu Qurayza, and then had sex with the widows and daughters of the murdered fathers and husbands
Muhammad took the wife of his son-in-law (as commanded by his Allah, of course) as his own.
Muhammad reduced the once thriving town of Medina to nothing more than a center for his thugs after 'cleansing' it of any presence of Jews and Christians.
Muhammad declared women to 'populate hell' and to be the source of all shame, and declared that they are nothing more than sex slaves at the beck and call of their husbands.
We hereby declared that Muhammad and his 'god' to be invalid and evil and his 'religion', Islam, to be invalid and evil.
at May 26, 2005 8:42 AM
I don't quite know what version CAIR is giving out now, but about two years ago the Muslim Students Association handed out the Yusuf Ali version, though the introduction says there was some "modernizing" of the text. Surah 9 is still there, but it's more gentle than some of the other versions I've seen.
Posted by: LRFD at May 26, 2005 9:21 AM
I have the Shakir edition which has introductory material which says that this edition "is devoted to the dissemination of authenic knowledge concerning Islam".
This "authentic knowledge" includes:
9:5 - So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
9:29 - Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until the pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Seems 'authentically' clear to me, and definitely promotes Islam as the 'religion of truth, peace and tolerance': threaten and extort as much 'booty' as you can in Allah's name, and kill them if they resist this equitable arrangement.
Ethelred - questioningIslam@yahoo.com
Posted by: Ethelred at May 26, 2005 9:37 AM
"People of Faith" on the lips of a Carolina Baptist? I bet it's something his Episcopalian lawyer came up with.
Still, as I've said before, while I mark up my translated Qur'an all over (but not as much as my working Bible), I'm not big on trashing books, especially if I've paid money for them.
Posted by: Kepha at May 26, 2005 10:26 AM
I think the 'free qu'ran for everyone' thing is a good thing. The qu'ran certainly enlightened me as to what the cult of islam is really all about!
Heck, I used to think that islam was pretty much the same as Christianity, Judaism, etc., until after 9/11. After the mass murders of my beloved brothers and sisters in the USA committed in the name of islam, BY MUSLIMS, I was compelled to research this 'islam'. And, I'm glad I did. Now I know what islam is really all about. So yes, free qu'rans for all.. when you are done being horrified and disgusted by its hate filled pages calling for YOUR death because YOU are not a muslim, you can enlighten your friends and give them your copy, or you can use the pages of this hate filled terrorist manifesto to pick up dog poop.
Posted by: SexyKafira1 at May 26, 2005 12:34 PM
I wonder if the qur'an that CAIR offers has commentary all throughout? You know the kind... "this doesn't really mean what it says." It probably is a softer, nicer qur'an to hook unsuspecting readers. I would be suspicious of anything offered by CAIR.
Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 26, 2005 1:09 PM
On the subject of the Pastor, I wonder how many threats he got for him to change his position so radically?
Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 26, 2005 1:11 PM
On the net...Quran...three translations per verse...Yusufali, Pickthal and Shakir.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
Shakir seems softer than the other two...
at May 26, 2005 1:21 PM
I definitely don't support hostility against muslims of any kind (save defensive, of course) but I'm slowly being forced by the postings of Shurki and Ia and all the rest to the position that there really isn't anything holy about the Quran.
Moreover, given the kind of treatment other religions routinely receive at the hands of islam, I'm having real trouble trying to condemn desecration of islamic holy books. Who cares? Why should this bother me? 'Do unto others' is the Golden Rule, but if one religion is incapable of observing that, what point is there in anyone else doing so?
What's the message here? That anywhere that Quranic passages are written is 'carrying the body of allah' or something?
Imam Geoff
Posted by: Geoff at May 26, 2005 2:55 PM
the rock is an idol
the book is an idol
the man is an idol,
all in the name
of the one and only god.
geoff, it all depends
on your definition of holy,
jihadis commit suicide and murder
and get a free pass to heaven.
it's all in the book,
read the koran
but first read
the nifty little tidbits
in the hadiths of bukhari
and al-muslim,and the sira,
a biography of mohammed by ibn ishaq.
they tell a seamless story in vivid detail.
at May 26, 2005 9:03 PM
No discussion that casts stones at other religions would be complete without reminding the Bible thumpers of their precious book's violent scripture. Gee, after reading these I am even more afraid of Christianity than I was before!
"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB
In that day those the LORD has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered like dung on the ground. (Jeremiah 25:33 NLT)
Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)
"They were my brothers!" Gideon exclaimed. "As surely as the LORD lives, I wouldn't kill you if you hadn't killed them." Turning to Jether, his oldest son, he said, "Kill them!" But Jether did not draw his sword, for he was only a boy and was afraid. Then Zebah and Zalmunna said to Gideon, "Don't ask a boy to do a man's job! Do it yourself!" So Gideon killed them both and took the royal ornaments from the necks of their camels. (Judges 8:19-21 NLT)
Posted by: KingTolerance at May 26, 2005 9:19 PM
KingTolerance , I am a Christian...BOO!
Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 26, 2005 10:20 PM
are you very afraid?
Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 26, 2005 10:21 PM
Robert:
I hope you will consider contacting the N.C. Baptist pastor and the Baptist Church with which his local church is associated. This submission to Islam is terrible!
Posted by: info_tech_guy at May 26, 2005 10:28 PM
If this is true, the pastor is a fraud and should be booted from his church.
His sign "The Koran should be flushed" was something that anyone in the Christian faith, who believes in its tenets, could subscribe to.
Because the Koran mocks Christianity as heresy.
Can't Christianity return the compliment?
I guess not.
Coward. Fool.
(If it was kowtowing to threats, then the preacher is also a weakling, unable to defend his faith with his life. Useless.)
Posted by: BigSleep at May 26, 2005 10:32 PM
Mr. Spencer-
I have to disagree with your Parthian shot.
"If a mosque had put up a sign that 'The Bible should be flushed', the same people who were excited about this sign [of the pastor] would be outraged." Au contraire
If that's ALL Muslims did, people would be tickled pink. Thrilled to the gills. Happy as pigs in sh... ing cities on the hill!
No. People would hardly be outraged. Because we are so inured to such truly horrific daily outrages from members of the Muslim faith, globally, that a mere insulting sign would be a relief.
I think you are over-thinking this incident.
Freedom of speech allows us to mock any faith.
As a Christian, he is free to defend his faith against a creed that calls it false, and its Messiah a fraud.
His capitulation -so easily- makes him a joke.
For that, I wish he hadn't even bothered. All he does is supply CAIR with another example of a perfect dhimmi chickensh*t idiot.
The preacher should have read the Koran while he was "praying" for guidance.
Its outrages might have given him some backbone.
But I support the freedom of anyone to mock all beliefs. And take the heat like a man. Or a woman (-like Oriana Fallaci, or Hirsi Ali).
Posted by: BigSleep at May 26, 2005 10:49 PM
KingTolerance - you have neglected to mention that the Bible verses you cite are from the OT and are a couple of thousand years old. Jews dont do these things any more, but Muslims continue to adhere to laws requiring them to stone and mutilate people. If the Jews begin stoning women for adultery etc., maybe then you will have a basis for comparison.
Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery, "Go home and sin no more".
What did Mo say in the same situation?
Something like 'Stone the bitch!' if memory serves me.
Posted by: DianaC at May 27, 2005 5:40 AM
Nice OT refs, KT. Got any NT?
And allah knows least.
Imam Geoff
Posted by: Geoff at May 27, 2005 9:31 AM
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