"...violated the law and norms of civilised society."

It has to come down to the potential rape of two and four year olds before 'the line is crossed'?

Disgusting. They don't have a clue what civilised means.

Posted by: butterfly at May 30, 2005 3:41 PM

Now Now. Its because their poor. Once the borders between poor pakistan are broken down with up and coming India, the problem will be solved! Really! Or will it become wider spread in India....

Posted by: Absolution at May 30, 2005 3:46 PM

Of course, now that Kaneez Kubra has been raped and "dishonoured" she will be subject to an honour killing to restore the family's honour. At least I think that's how it goes. Some society, some culture.

Posted by: johnb at May 30, 2005 4:27 PM

Will Martine McCutcheon be showing this aspect of Grislamic marriage in her new comedy role? See new thread.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at May 30, 2005 4:35 PM

In Western societies primative tribal customs are mostly trumped by the rule of law. It is interesting and not surprising to note that the practice of bride kidnapping in central Asia is peculiar to the Islamic tribes such as the Cherkess in the Karachay-Cherkess Republic where the Christian Russians (40% of the population) do not engage in this barbaric custom at all. The practice is widespread in Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan.

The Islamic ideology has demonstrated for more than a thousand years that societies that are shaped by it are incapable of attaining any social construct that transcends tribalism, e.g., Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at May 30, 2005 10:32 PM

Well, Pakistan is a barbaric country, no doubt about it.

Posted by: Kepha at May 30, 2005 11:22 PM

Hulegu Khan,

More on bride kidnapping. I saw this just the other night. It's like watching a rape. I cried.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/kyrgyzstan/thestory.html

Posted by: butterfly at May 30, 2005 11:46 PM

And of course we should protect customs like the one mentioned above by butterfly under the name of cultural relativism. We shouldn't?

Then why are we putting up with islam at all??

Posted by: Absolution at May 31, 2005 12:50 AM

I concur with Ali Sina. These sick customs are a blight to humanity and have to go.
Islam has to be eradicated for the greater good of humanity like smallpox has been eradicated in 1975.

Posted by: Germen Roding at May 31, 2005 6:41 AM

Germen Roding:

While smallpox has been pretty much eradicated, we still have polio around thanks to the Islamists of certain African countries (Nigeria, I believe is one of them) who allege that the vaccine is being used as a Trojan horse to render Muslim females sterile.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at May 31, 2005 8:32 AM

what a coincidence. Though polio has been eradicated in most states of India , in the state of UP a few cases are recorded every year largely because the state's large Muslim population refuses to take vaccine on the pretext that it is designed to render Muslims sterile ( i love the idea though)

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at May 31, 2005 9:51 AM

Vikrant:

Actually, the polio that may have taken root in UP may actually be an African strain that got communicated via the annual Hadj. The story I read on the subject (frontpagemag.com, I believe was the source) indicates that the same strain has shown up in a handful of distant Muslim countries.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at May 31, 2005 11:23 AM

Welcome to the X rated version of the Flintstones. In this version of the show, Pebbles is running scared and Bamm-Bamm uses his club to good effect. In the season finalle, the great Allah-Gazoo comes down and saves the rock-heads from themselves. Yabba dabba doo!

Posted by: William The Crusader at May 31, 2005 12:43 PM

As evidenced by the opposition of Muslim scholars, practices like these are not sanctioned by Islam. But it must be honestly acknowledged, particularly by Islamic reformers in Pakistan and elsewhere, that the devaluation of women in Islam contributes to this kind of thinking.

Robert- though I would not argue with anyone who maintained that, on the whole, Islam is an evil ideology, the fact remains that it is still not pan-malfeasant- i.e. it is not responsible for every evil that exists under the sun. Imperialist, supremacist, militant, extremely selfish and self-pitying? Yes. Seeking global domination and the destruction of all other cultures? Yes, to that as well. Condoning the gang-rape of women? Sorry, I don't think so.

Daniel Pipes in "In the Path of God" distinguished between "Islamic" and "Islamicate"- that is, between cultural practices that logically stem from Islam and those that happen to be practised by Muslims but that have no religious mandate and probably are hold-overs from pre-Islamic times. This is one of the latter, just like honor killings which in your most recent post regarding you seemed very discomfitted to admit is also practiced by Arab Christians!

Robert, I learn a lot from reading your articles and those of Hugh as well, but both you of you are Islamic essentialists, blaming everything barbaric about Muslim people on their religion as a polemical strategy to shield yourselves from charges of "racism". Unfortunately the historical evidence does not support you, and by using it you give the apologist academics who write reviews of your works an opportunity to quibble with these minor points while ingoring the larger truths you raise.

The fact is that not everything wrong with the generally barbaric behavior of today's Middle Eastern people is the result of Islamization. The majority of it and the worst of it, yes, but not all. These people had some incredibly barbaric customs long before the coming of Islam, and you can't deny that some of that religion's more beneficent practices (and there are some!) improved the lot of its converts and may in fact have won their conversion.

So in short don't trample on the complexities of history and open yourself up to diversionary attacks just because you want to make a stronger polemical point. You don't need to do so, because the truth is already on your side.

Posted by: emperor_diocletian at May 31, 2005 7:03 PM

It seems, after reading the various obtunded responses on this website, that one could post an article that global warming is due to Islam and you'd all come a'rallying!

Once again, I challenge you all to think for once instead of jumping onto the bigtory bandwagon when fed some sort of pablum that appeals to your ignorance and desire to hate.

Perhaps what we see here is simply a barbaric act played out by barbaric people? People that are so far in the past that Westerners fail to identify with anything they do. Gang rapes are carried out in your beloved Western countries, too, and these rapes are no more Judeo-Christian in nature than they are Islamic in Pakistan.

Posted by: KingTolerance at May 31, 2005 7:35 PM

Germen Roding hacked: "Islam has to be eradicated for the greater good of humanity like smallpox has been eradicated in 1975."

King replies: This may sound better in its original German context, taken from one of Hitler's pre-WWII speeches when he spoke about eradicating the Jews "like the sickness that is was."

What then makes you any different than Hitler, Herr Roding?

Posted by: KingTolerance at May 31, 2005 7:38 PM

Perhaps what we see here is simply a barbaric act played out by barbaric people? People that are so far in the past that Westerners fail to identify with anything they do.

Wow, I find myself in agreement with KingTolerance. Perhaps once he reads up on the institution this site is named after (i.e. dhimmitude) and drops the multi-culti, "celebrate diversity in all its glorious forms" pretense, it won't be of the broken-clock-right-twice-a-day-variety either.

Posted by: emperor_diocletian at May 31, 2005 8:54 PM

emperor_diocletian offered: "once he reads up on the institution this site is named after (i.e. dhimmitude) and drops the multi-culti blah, blah, blah"

King Responds: For the 45th time, I am "read up" and understand the big picture, not the myopic view of Islamic extremism you are somehow trying to extrapolate to all Muslims.

As for my "multi-culti" pretense, I have yet to see anything worthwhile being suggested from your camp to "fix the broken clock." Unless, of course, you are of the erradication ilk.

Posted by: KingTolerance at May 31, 2005 9:04 PM

KingTolerance - 'gang rapes are carried out in your beloved Western countries ... '

They sure are - and Muslims are prime offenders. For example, several Australian teenage girls were gang raped here in Sydney a few years ago. The rapists were Muslims and the rapes were racist acts.

These girls were raped because:

* They were Australian

* They were wearing ordinary clothes (one girl, on her way to an interview, was wearing a business suit) instead of medieval slave garb

* These 7th century squirrels appear to believe that all non-Muslim females are fair game.

These rapists got a surprise, they are now serving 50 years apiece.

This situation is duplicated in every country where Muslims have settled. They seem to treat goats better than they treat their own women, so we really shouldnt be surprised at this behaviour. The families of the rapists behaved like the pack of baboons they truly are, screamed that their precious sons were being set up by Sydney cops because they dont like Muslims, that the girls lied, that the girls deserved it, that the female prosecutor was a slut...

Not so different from the mindset of the rapists in Pakistan, I would imagine. No, this is a problem with Islam, exacerbated by whatever barbarian customs were in place before the advent of Islam in that culture.

Oh yes - the rapists were visited in prison by a Muslim 'religious leader' who told them that they had committed no real crime, that women were simply pigs created for male morons to get their rocks off. Especially western women, I imagine.

Posted by: DianaC at May 31, 2005 9:36 PM

Unless, of course, you are of the erradication ilk.

Until they start waving nuclear warheads in our faces (do you remember how a couple years ago former-Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani publically fantasized about Iran destroying Israel with atomic weapons since it was willing to "take one for the team": http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm
), no. I'm more of the moratorium-on-all-Muslim-immigration, deport-and-strip-of-citizenship-anyone-involved-in-jihadist-activities
type. I don't think anyone here is seriously of the exterminationist bent; those who advocate it are simply blowing off steam.

I am "read up" and understand the big picture, not the myopic view of Islamic extremism you are somehow trying to extrapolate to all Muslims.

Regarding terrorists, yes, only a fraction of a percent are actually terrorists, just because most Muslims are what I would call bourgeosie Muslims- i.e. too timid, conventional, and interested in mundane activities like making money and raising their families to really act upon their convictions. This was true of most German people in 1933 as well, though even they were probably not as anti-Semitic, resentful, and paranoid/delusional as all polls indicate a plurality, if not the majority, of Muslims are today. And this is the mass that provides the financial and socio-culturual support (notice how almost no Muslim terrorists are what we would classify as psychopathic; isn't this because they come from a culture which validates their actions?) that allows terrorism to flourish, and so, yes, that makes them a valid target of criticism as a group.

Posted by: emperor_diocletian at May 31, 2005 9:39 PM

Regrets, KT, but you are clearly not "read-up". I hereby give you permission to complain about it for the 46th time, or however many times it takes until you actually "do the deed".

KT: "Perhaps what we see here is simply a barbaric act played out by barbaric people?"

A "barbaric people"? Good God: you're a bloody paragon of tolerance yourself, Herr Tolerance.

You will have a double punishment.

And allah knows least.

Imam Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 1, 2005 1:25 AM

King Tolerance, its very difficult, because I started off as welcoming all immigration, but over the years I have become aware of the Islamic ideology and what I see I don't like and think it has no place in Western society.

But if you think that I and others here want to go and kill Muslims etc. then you are wrong.

I have a young daughter, another two years she will be in her teens, so I am supposed to be tolerent so that the intolerent will gang-rape my daughter. I suppose I can comfort her by telling her that our society has grown by accepting Islamic culture and customs.

I struggle with what we can do, I have noticed that Islam is not something that will ever reform, so by accepting such an ideology in our societies is incredibly dangerous and stupid, if only I can turn the clocks back.

Islam is an ideology, my suggestion is to stop any further Muslim immigration, I want to see a massive attempt to re-educate these people away from this cult. I want to see the closure of all Mosques and Islamic centres. Those that do not accept this can leave. We don't have to resort to guns and bullets, but also we should be firm on what Islam is not acceptable and allowing such an ugly religion that stands squarely against what we in the West cherish, individual freedoms and democracy as compared to surrender to the will of Allah is plainly foolish.

I regret having to think like this, but there is only so much tolerence one should give to the intolerent.

I think the vast majority of this population will stay and leave this cult and I will accept them as people.

But if we leave this too much longer than we will end up with another haulocaust, either them or us, look at Serbia for the future.

I hate having to even think like this as it goes against quite fundemental views such as the golden rule and freedom of choice for the individual, but I really do believe that Islam as a cult has proved that it should no longer be given the benefit of the doubt.

Posted by: Daffersd at June 1, 2005 6:51 AM

KT,

Yes, we unfortunately have gang rapes. But there is one crucial difference. In the US, we treat it as a crime, not something sanctioned by tradition. And it happened with the approval of the local clerics and the acceptance of the townspeople.

Islam is the religion of Peace and Tolerance. Just ask them. Islam respects the rights of women. Just ask them. Islam is the religion for all Time. Just ask them.

As far as the "barbaric act played out by barbaric people" is concerned, the last IS true. After all, nothing seems to have changed in the last 1500 years.

Posted by: jay at June 1, 2005 7:44 AM

Geoff wrote: "A "barbaric people"? Good God: you're a bloody paragon of tolerance yourself, Herr Tolerance."

King responds: Liebe Geoff, I think you've proven just how confused you really are with this little statement of yours.

Firstly, being tolerant of someone does not mean you have to like them or what they believe in. This goes for a religion. On the other hand, nobody has to tolerate a barbaric crime perpetuated by violent criminals. That's where I take a drastically different approach than you and that's why I am far, far more qualified to wear the King's crown than you will ever be.

Daffersd wrote: "I started off as welcoming all immigration, but over the years I have become aware of the Islamic ideology and what I see I don't like and think it has no place in Western society."

King replies: I think you have become aware of a criminal mentality harbored by radicals and extremists who speak nothing of the values of Islamic faith.

Daffersd wrote: "I really do believe that Islam as a cult has proved that it should no longer be given the benefit of the doubt."

King replies: I think you need to examine the entire picture before making such a broad statement. It is clear that you have become quite paranoid about gangs of Islamic men raping your children and burning the villiage, so to speak. The criminal mentality that we see here has been born of decades of neglect from within their respective corrupt countries who have failed to stifle the growth of radical extremism. Things have gotten so bad that we literally see people operating on a year 1500 culture. THIS IS NOT AN EXCLUSIVE RELIGIOUS ISSUE, IT IS AN ISSUE OF CULTURE, CORRUPTION, CHURCH AND STATE AND OPPRESSION THAT IS ONLY NOW SURFACING.

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 1, 2005 8:26 AM

KingTolerence, I have looked at the broad picture, I do not think that this can be put at the door of corrupt Muslim governments, but squarely at the door of what Islam really stand for. Like I said this has been a painful and unpleasent journey for me where I now have views on a segment of the population that I thought I would never have.

You do not get it, the religion is the culture, it allows corruption as it enables the strong and aggresive, the church and the state is one and the same, it oppresses all the do not believe in it. I managed to read the Qu'ran and am now plowing through the hadiths, ouch! I am taking notes of the fact that the later verses abrogate the earlier verses.

Since I was 8 I was picking up history books, I have 300 in my possession, including all the Penguin classics, I have always been interested in current affairs, economics etc. and subscribe to the economist I don't come at this without having agonised over it and researched it, this point of view has come about despite my liberal view point.

Like I said I know there are many good people who are Muslims, but that is in spite of, rather then due to.

Posted by: Daffersd at June 1, 2005 9:25 AM

Daffersd: "You do not get it, the religion is the culture, it allows corruption as it enables the strong and aggresive, the church and the state is one and the same"

King replies: First, let this be a lesson as to why church and state should never, ever mix regardless of what religion it is. There is such opportunity for corruption that myths become truths and intolerance becomes the norm all around.
Second, I think the lines have become so blurred due to this blatant mixture that it is easier to simply blame the religion rather than the hundreds of other facets that are involved here. Blaming an entire religion for the problems of the times is what the Nazis did in WWII and I will never allow statements like "I know there are many good people who are Muslims, but that is in spite of, rather then due to" to go uncontested.
As for gang rapes and other deplorable behaviors, let us consider those folks criminals who make practice some sort of radicalized Islam. They do not speak for the religion as a whole and they do not get Western culture due to their barbarism, not their religion.

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 1, 2005 9:38 AM

I agree with your lesson that church and the state should never mix, but Islam thinks that Islam is the church and the state.

The hatred of the Jews by the Nazi's can not be used in this case, the hatred of the Jews was down to jealousy of the great acheivements, talents and wealth of the Jewish people and the fact that they were different.

I have no issue with people being different, I have an issue with an ideology that is inherently aggresive, warlike and treats any one who does not believe in it as second class or non-human and often that means death. I don't think you can contest this fact, its there in black and white and even shades of grey, but it is there.

Radicalized Islam, no, Islam is radical, racist, oppresive and nasty, sorry I can not get away from that.

Posted by: Daffersd at June 1, 2005 9:55 AM

Daffersd: "The hatred of the Jews by the Nazi's can not be used in this case, the hatred of the Jews was down to jealousy of the great acheivements, talents and wealth of the Jewish people and the fact that they were different."

King replies: The reasoning behind "their" hatred and "your" hatred is completely irrelevant and justifying your position with this has already put you on the slippery slope. The wholesale condemnation of any religion based on the behaviors and or interpretations of a radical minority is what we're talking about here. You've said it yourself, there are good Muslims and those folks wish for the radicalism to go away just like the rest of us. Once again, your problem is with radicals who have been allowed to run buckshot over Islam and their politics, unopposed, giving their religion a bad name.

Daffersd: "Islam thinks that Islam is the church and the state."

King: No!! RADICAL interpretations of Islam think this way! Moderates do not feel this way and many have fled their radical homelands in order to find a better way of life while still practicing Islam peacfully, as intended. I know many folks like this and I love them all dearly.

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 1, 2005 10:27 AM

KT, I can only conclude from your response that you`ve a screw knocked loose somewhere. Listen for the rattling.

Being tolerant of someone and their views does indeed not mean that you have to like them or their views, but at the same time it means you have to not dislike them. Your comment was not "barbaric crimes" but "barbaric PEOPLE". I imagine you can see the difference.

I, for my part, do indeed condemn these crimes -and I find that their basis is suspiciously associated with a particular politico-religious ideology. This is where we in fact diverge - that I condemn the ideology alone, but recognize that the people behind it are merely deluded, not "barbarians".

But if you're really so intent on Himmler's crown, enjoy, I guess.

So "decades of neglect" are responsible for all islamic evils? How astute! And how many decades would that be, then?

Presumably, 135 such decades, all the way back the original neglecter of reason and justice, Mo himself. Thanks for bringing that up. I assume also that you have some evidence that these "radical" viewpoints are such a tiny minority, so marginalized, so insignificant; surely you wouldn't say so otherwise?

Why, it's my understanding that such views are SO incredibly rare that they only occur in 80% of all mosques in the US alone.

Whew!

And allah knows least.

Imam Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 1, 2005 10:49 AM

I was referring to the general populations feeling about Jews and the Nazi's use of that feeling in that period, that is a historical fact if I am not mistaken... And it was you who referred to Nazi Germany and the Jews while I think that there is no relationship between Islam and the Jews in this, one was racism purely and simply the other is ideology based, i.e. what they are told to think. I am very clear on the difference, slippery slope, huh, playing the racism card does not work with me one iota! Perhaps you want to change the word racism to mean "the theory that human abilities are determined by their surrender to allah." hogwash!!

You still don't see it, Islam is not moderate, those moderate Muslims you talk about are rejecting the extreme parts of their religion, they don't know it yet, but they are not true Muslims. They can not change the religion because the Qu'ran is the so-called word of god (for all times and all places) so they follow these words of god which is full of hate, really this is quite tedious, anyone reading the Qu'ran and various hadiths should understand that, I guess you have not, do a search and read up and report back in due course.

Posted by: Daffersd at June 1, 2005 11:00 AM

KingTolerance, you seem to have given up, perhaps you are studying the Quran and all the other hateful writings, or perhaps you have waltzed off to try your luck with someone else, seeing as you whipped out the old racism bit which backfired mighterly and is the last resort of the beaten Jihadist, I would think the latter.

Posted by: Daffersd at June 1, 2005 2:32 PM

Daffersd taunted: "KingTolerance, you seem to have given up, perhaps you are studying the Quran and all the other hateful writings"

Kin responds: Pat yourself on your back as you may, but I actually had work to do. Arguing with you is not exactly top on my list of priorities! Sorry you actually sat aroun waiting for me to come back at you. This shows what a sad life you must lead.

Daffersd somehow reasoned: "playing the racism card does not work with me one iota"

King responds: Who said anything about you being a racist? Last time I checked Islam was a religion, not a race. Spin as you must but this has never been my position. I am only saying that your wholesale hatred of Islam is tantamount to what Hitler did with Judaism in WWII, that is, he and his henchmen blamed an entire religion for the woes in Germany. Period. You are trying to extrapolate the behaviors of radical extremists to an entire religion, throwing out the other clear issues that contributed to the making of the monster.

Daffersd admitted: "You still don't see it, Islam is not moderate, those moderate Muslims you talk about are rejecting the extreme parts of their religion, they don't know it yet, but they are not true Muslims."

King replies: As usual, if I let you folks go on long enough you end up shooting yourselves in the foot! Your little comment here is proof positive that you bought the programming and perseverate on radical interpretations of Islam, forgetting (perhaps ignoring) that there are millions of moderates out there who actually do practice their true religion, as intended, and wish for the radical extremists to go away.
I'll be sure to tell my friends that they are not "true Muslims" because some person who soaks up hate propaganda said it was so. I am sure they'll give you all the respect you deserve. None.

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 1, 2005 3:19 PM

Just as the most holy site in Islam is the place where they are currently concealing themselves, a moderate Muslim is one that is not actually cutting off heads or blowing up women and children. The theology of Islam is not moderate and neither are the vast majority of Muslims and even though they are not all foot soldiers, they are still part of the problem. The word "all" does not apply to much and it probably doesn't apply here either although it comes very close. Were we not to resist Nazis because a few could pass for decent? I have a french description of your position KT. Vous vous etes trompe de train!

Posted by: pismopal at June 1, 2005 4:24 PM

King blathers: As usual, if I let you folks go on long enough you end up shooting yourselves in the foot! Your little comment here is proof positive that you bought the programming and perseverate on radical interpretations of Islam, forgetting (perhaps ignoring) that there are millions of moderates out there who actually do practice their true religion, as intended, and wish for the radical extremists to go away.

Imam Geoff teaches: KT, let us not talk of firearms; that is for jihad and jihad is for allah.

But you are clueless as to what a "moderate" is, or where they can be found, or what defines them. What do your claims about their practise being "as intended" really amount to? Is the way these supposed moderates practice their religion similar to how Mohammed practiced it? And just what did Mohammed do all that while at Medina and Mecca? What is the percentage of islam that is "extremist" and what constitutes such "extremism"?

I have the feeling you have answers to none of these questions. Do you really know anything about islam? Have you read the Quran, or the hadiths, or Mohammed's biography? Do you know the traditions? I have. Your constant whining seems to spring from the inherent assumption that all religions are the same. They aren't. I'll give you one post in which to prove that they are. Then, the coup de grace.

May you receive it with the same grace in which I deliver it.

Imam Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 1, 2005 4:38 PM

KingTolerance, Actually I live a very successful life, I am fairly rich, own multiple properties, work in finance, can programme in VB.Net, I could go on, beuatiful wife, two loving kids, both doing well at school, just ate in a superb resturant last weekend.

Well you seem to be arguing with lots of people on this site, so I wonder who has the sadder life.

Racism, you keep trying to link people on this site to Nazi's its on most of your posts, Nazi's are racists because of the master race bit, sorry its not the same as the Nazi situation at all, I made my point earlier and you rejected it by giving me the racism bit, I am rather amused in fact and that is why I goaded yoy to respond.

Sadly you are mistaken, you have a very superficial knowledge of Islam, so when you tell me there are millions of moderate Muslims pratcising the true Islam I get really worried.

If you really mean soaking up hate propaganada are you referring to the fact that I have read the Quran and about 20% of the Hadiths, I mean that is real hate propaganda, the verses on killing Jews, pagans, the people of a book are a joy for sad killers, really.

I don't care about their repsect, why would I want the respect of people living with a 6th Century mentality, following the teachings of a mass murderer, a rapist, a child molester, they can keep their respect, or lack of it.

Its been nice, gotta go though, cya

Posted by: Daffersd at June 1, 2005 5:02 PM