Maybe his beard will catch on fire.

Posted by: Voltaire at June 2, 2005 8:39 AM

This is an open-and-shut case.

Job regulations say you have no facial hair.

You choose:
A. Keep job, lose facial hair.
B. Keep facial hair, lose job.

Case closed.

Posted by: skidd at June 2, 2005 8:55 AM

FAA regulations also prohibit facial hair that interferes with the seal on cockpit respirators. The rule has been challenged a number of times and it has always been upheld because of the public safety issues.

Here is a case of an activist judge who has absolutely no clue about the true nature of this case. He is saying that public safety must take a back seat to political correctness. Your house is burning, your honor.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at June 2, 2005 9:18 AM

WELL I HOPE THE HOLD THE TRUCK IF FIRE BREAKS OUT DURING ONE OF THE "PRAYERS SESSSIONS"
CAN ANYTHING STOP US FROM STOP DROP AND ROLL OVER FOR THESE MURDERERS?

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at June 2, 2005 9:39 AM

As far as I know, all fire depts have the no beard requirement for safety reasons. A chemical fire, with toxic smoke will take him out if his beard does not allow a proper seal...the judge is irrisponsible...

Posted by: duh_swami at June 2, 2005 10:11 AM

This is a dangerous precedent to set. In all the American Armed forces, especially the Marines and Army you are not allowed to have a beard. The reason is you will not get a good seal on your gas mask. Allowing this person to keep his beard puts himself, but most of all, his peers in jeopardy during a fire.

Where will this take us now? Others will want to keep their beards to for religion too while putting a mission, whatever it is, in jeopardy?

This is the problem I have - it's extremely arrogant of him to keep the beard - it's not about religion - it's about him trying to beat the system in the name of his religion. Instead of working for the whole or the greater good of the team which is to save lives, especially his own - he has selfishly turned this into an issue about an individually - himself.

Posted by: Laurel at June 2, 2005 10:36 AM

I assume that next a blind Muslim cleric (there's one sitting in a New York jail who I'm sure would like to be the first test litigant) will now want to be a firefighter, saying that his lack of eyesight would actually be an advantage in situations where the smoke is so thick that eyesight would be irrelevant, if not an actual distracting impediment.

And some equally p.c.-blinded judge would probably take the case.

Public safety trumps superstition.

Or we're all trapped in a burning building called democracy run amock.

Maybe the bailiff needs to whisper this in the judge's ear:

The Constitution is not a suicide pact, yer honor.

Posted by: BigSleep at June 2, 2005 10:57 AM

The Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department has allowed a deputy sheriff to not only keep his beard, but also his turban. They even designed a sheriffs badge that is pinned to the front of the turban--- the deputy is a Seikh.

Posted by: Mackie at June 2, 2005 11:21 AM

You folks are too hard on this poor believer. There is a simple remedy. Let him prove his mask seals in a chamber filled with pepper spray. Easy and simple. Any Army base will have this chamber.

Posted by: vulcan at June 2, 2005 11:29 AM

“…as his faith deepened,” explained Curtis De Veaux.

Meaning, as his faith radicalized.

If made to conform or if he is fired, he will harbor a grudge and that resentment will manifest itself through some sort of retaliation later. If allowed to keep the beard he will see it as an islamic victory and will seek to push and undermine our system further.

Get rid of these people, their thought processes are terrorism and intimidation backed up by the ACLU and other “civil rights” groups. The lines are drawn between the political and cultural left and muslims vs. America and Western civilization.

Posted by: Cross at June 2, 2005 11:58 AM

in time of fire/heavy smoke beard+smoke mask -(minus)proper seal(due to beard) = toxic asphyxiation

perfect example of "political correctness" winning over common sense and the natural normal human survival/self-preservation instinct

let's see - next will be court case to not participate directly in actual firefighting - and still keep the job

PC(oppossed to human rights) kills

Posted by: PCKills! at June 2, 2005 12:15 PM

http://citypaper.net/articles/2005-03-24/cb2.shtml

(Contains photo and article)

De Veaux's attorney, the ACLU's Mary Catherine Roper, says his case will be the first to apply Pennsylvania's Religious Freedom Protection Act of 2002, which says a government rule or policy cannot substantially burden an individual's religious expression....

Posted by: Cross at June 2, 2005 12:19 PM

When Saudia flight 163 landed on fire at Riyadh on August 19, 1980, 287 passengers and 14 crew members died because the airport crash crews were at the wrong end of the runway and when they finally arrived at the burning aircraft the Saudi crash crews didn't know how to open the doors of the aircraft from the outside. It was also confirmed in the investigation that some of the firemen showed up at the aircraft scene in their fire suits but they were wearing rubber slippers on their feet.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at June 2, 2005 12:27 PM

So .....eventually this bearded fool with mask askew will be seen to chain or otherwise block fire doors at a blazing girls school because it is against Islam for the females to be outside without thier heads covred?

This already happend in Afghanistan. many young females needlessly forced to die by fire because of the laws of allah.

Posted by: AvrageJoe at June 2, 2005 12:45 PM

How many of the Saudi Princes, and Princesses have beards? This is another example of a Muslim disrespecting rules and regulations, and should be treated as such.

Posted by: DCWatson at June 2, 2005 12:57 PM

This is a link to the fire at the girls school in Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 2002 when 15 girls died.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm
Note the Photo of the Mecca City governor and a lackey, and their clean shaven chins. The Governor has a surfit of chins, all of them hairless.

An inquiry later absolved the religious police of blame - fancy that. There was also a suggestion that women teachers would be trained in civil defence procedures such as fire evacuation and first aid but I don't suppose anything came of it.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 2, 2005 1:14 PM

Curtis De Veaux says "The Fire Department has traditionally been a racist department long before even I was on it”

His mosque is the Masjid Al-Mujahideen, at 413 S. 60th St. in West Philly.

Mujahideen, let's see, doesn't that translate to jihad or warrior?

There are many mosques with this threatening name.

They are linked to this anti-American site. http://www.amstristate.com/ams/localcommunity.htm

Be sure to check on the “sharia compliant home financing”. How lovely.

Posted by: Cross at June 2, 2005 1:16 PM

All of the stupid and hateful phobic comments notwithstanding, I am also not a supporter of this.

Choosing to be a fireman means you choose to obey the rules and regs of your profession. You know this going into it and if you are not willing/able to accomodate the rules then you ought not choose that profession. It would be the same as this fella refusing to wear a hair net over his beard should he be a chef.

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 2, 2005 2:03 PM

The racist phony fireman is the least important link in this chain. The real culprits are the imams and the other racists that frequent these mosques and the aclu that defends them.

Posted by: Cross at June 2, 2005 2:26 PM

All of the stupid and hateful phobic comments notwithstanding, I am also not a supporter of this.

Posted by King Tolerance

Why are you stuck on the word "phobic" or one of its derivatives when referring to those who post here?

A phobia is an irrational fear that compels one to avoid the feared stimulus. An Islamophobe, as silly and contrived as this new and convenient word is, would do everything possible to ignore and avoid that which he fears---Islam. We hardly fit that description.

Posted by: Susanp at June 2, 2005 2:31 PM

Idiotic. The constraints of the job and public safety trumps all else.

Once again he raises the specter of race:

"In a fire department, you get a lot of guys who are totally against change," he says. "The Fire Department has traditionally been a racist department long before even I was on it, and firefighters do like to gossip."

First, Islam is not a race. Second the idea that the fire department doesn't want him to have beard because "racial policies" is ludicrous. And the idea that the other other firefighters won't change and give in to having a dangerous beard because they are "racists" is absurd. They want a man they can count on in a dangerous situation -- obviously they can't count on him if he can't wear the mask correctly. Should he die because his mask didn't seal properly, I wonder if his family would sue? Of course they would.

He is putting himself, his fellow firefighters, and the public at risk and setting a dangerous precedent

Posted by: epg at June 2, 2005 2:58 PM

My husband is a firefighter. He doesn't have a beard for that reason.

A firefighter has an obligation to the public and his fellow firefighters to follow all standard safety practices.

If he doesn't, he is risking himself, his fellow workers, and the public that he is paid to protect.

Follow the rules or find another line of work.

Posted by: treehugger at June 2, 2005 3:17 PM

Susanp queried: "[KT]Why are you stuck on the word "phobic" or one of its derivatives when referring to those who post here? "We hardly fit that description."

King replies: Ok, then. Taking your definition literally, I change my lable and simply call you a bigot: "A person extremely intolerant of others and irrespective of reasoning."

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 2, 2005 3:20 PM

The Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department has allowed a deputy sheriff to not only keep his beard, but also his turban. They even designed a sheriffs badge that is pinned to the front of the turban--- the deputy is a Seikh.

And? This is pointless statement.

The uniform change doesn't stop the Seikh from doing his job. If anything it makes him a more visible protector of the community. I remember old movies where police (British) used to wear big hats with the badges on the front.

This is about safety and the ability to do your job. This guy is likely to pass out in low oxygen situation... going from rescuer to an additional person that needs to be rescued.

What is next?
Female lifeguard wearing full robes. Not only will she not be able to get to the downing victim, she will drown herself.

Posted by: Troll at June 2, 2005 3:25 PM

KT, change your "lable" all you like; it doesn't change the fact that your posts are illogically argued and small-minded. You have to be able to prove 'bigotry' before you can make such a charge.

Imam Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 2, 2005 3:46 PM

If this guy is not willing to shave his beard he should be canned. Simple as that.

If keeping his beard is so important, he should look into other lines of work. Perhaps ZZ Top could use him as a roadie or something...

Posted by: Salami, Salami, Bologna at June 2, 2005 4:25 PM

Interesting. kt can't be bothered to post to a thread, or respond to questions towards himself on the same, if he can't make out something to be bigoted or racist. Notice he won't even bother to respond to questions put to him on the thread immediately following this one.

Posted by: Gary at June 2, 2005 5:12 PM

Why would anyone want to keep an employee who won't follow the rules? He can't be trusted to stick to a rule he agreed with, how can he be trusted to do anything else required of him?

The guy agreed as a term of employment to shave the beard, now he doesn't want to.....safety issues aside, I say fire his a$$....he can't decide "he doesn't want to" shave the beard and not expect repercussions.

I'm gonna tell my boss tomorrow that my deepening love of free time is interfering with my coming to work five days a week. What do you think that'll get me? A three day work week?

Posted by: BorgQueen at June 2, 2005 5:38 PM

This guy is never going to shave his beard.

He wants to get fired so he can sue.

Suing is the third column of Jihad,at least in countries other than thier homeland where they would be jailed or killed for expressing thier views.

I say keep him till retirement,but given the fact that he fails to meet the physical requirements of his current job assignment he should be re-assigned to a position where his beard will not be a safety concern.I'm sure they need someone to roll up the hoses and wash the truck.

JLP

Posted by: John Lee Pedimore at June 2, 2005 6:23 PM

Firefighting is a brotherhood. This guy has probably ostracized himself in some way and now this beard thing is probably just one item in a long list of things that causes him to be more of a liability on the line than an asset. If he is pressing for a concession on the beard, it is probable that he has pressed, and probably failed, to obtain concessions on halal food in the firehouse, prayer time breaks, light duty during Ramadan, cohabitating in the firehouse with female firefighters, witholding CPR from Jewish victims, etc., etc., etc...

It never ends with these people. Cut it off now before it costs some civilian or another firefighter his/her life. Wearing a beard is a choice. Many choices in life are mutually exclusive. Wearing a beard and upholding the oath to the community as a member of that honorable company who serve in the fire service is one of those mutually exclusive choices. Period. Throw the bum out on the street and let that be an example to others who contemplate the same choice.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at June 2, 2005 6:50 PM

This from Wikepedia:

Prevention and treatment varies by person. Some males use shaving powders (a kind of chemical depilatory) to avoid the irritation. Others may use a razor with a single blade or special wire-wrapped blade to avoid shaving too closely. Some men trim instead of shaving or grow a beard. In severe cases or in occupations where shaving is a requirement (such as the military), some men get electrolysis, laser, or use exfoliating products to minimize PFB.

Posted by: PRCS at June 2, 2005 7:48 PM

Geoff plumped up: "You have to be able to prove 'bigotry' before you can make such a charge."

King responds: You prove it for me all of the time - its a fish in barrel job, really.

Gary taunted: "Notice he won't even bother to respond to questions put to him on the thread immediately following this one."

King replies: Unlike you, I have a life and have to take breathers from time to time. What may appear to be a victory for the Mutt and Geoff show is merely the King tending to his duties. Now what does this have to do with the fireman's beard?

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 2, 2005 8:20 PM

Your life must be composed of false assumptions and many unanswered questions, kt. Come to think of it, sounds a lot like Kerry.

Posted by: Gary at June 2, 2005 9:39 PM

In any case, you only seem to see intolerance towards muslims. Nothing else seems to matter to you. Certainly not answering our questions.

Gone for the weekend guys, pending one possible morning post. Stay safe!

Posted by: Gary at June 2, 2005 9:41 PM

King replies: Ok, then. Taking your definition literally, I change my lable and simply call you a bigot: "A person extremely intolerant of others and irrespective of reasoning."

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 2, 2005 03:20 PM

But how can you call me a bigot when you don't even know me? My conception of a bigot is a person who hates a specific group or groups of people for no logical reason. Bigots usually know little or nothing about the people they hate, and their enmity stems from ignorance and irrational intolerance towards anyone who is not a member of their own "group."

I'm afraid we don't fit that bill either. The regular posters here come from all over the world. There are Christians, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and a few undecided. Our political inclinations and ethnicities are disparate, to say the least. We respect and tolerate each other despite having more differences than commonalities, so I wonder why we all decided to pick on Islam and muslims?

You can bet it's not because we are ignorant of Islam. You can bet it's not because we hate everyone who isn't identical to ourselves. While most of us admit that we hate Islam, have we declared that we hate all muslims? We merely discuss Islam---real, true, uncensored Islam and what it does to the people who believe it is the "only true religion." I agree, the truth about Islam is horrid. That's why it must be exposed. When one's very survival is at stake, political correctness is suicidal. Intelligent people do not tolerate the intolerant, or appease and pander to those who wish to destroy them.

Posted by: Susanp at June 2, 2005 9:42 PM

in time of fire/heavy smoke beard+smoke mask -(minus)proper seal(due to beard) = toxic asphyxiation

After he dies from toxic asphyxiation, the muslims would sue the Department for wrongful death - negligence in upholding safety standards in protecting their fireman.

"He wanted it, yes, but you lowered the safety standard on him, thus causing his death."

Posted by: skidd at June 2, 2005 9:58 PM

The muslim racist will be ostracized by the other real firefighters no matter what. My prediction is he will quit. Although he might just get himself fired so he can collect unemployment.

This guy is a poser and a faker. He’s not a real fireman and most likely he’s just a pretend muslim. Kind of like Thomas.

Posted by: Cross at June 2, 2005 10:46 PM

KingTolerance wrote : "Ok, then. Taking your definition literally, I change my lable and simply call you a bigot: "A person extremely intolerant of others and irrespective of reasoning".
Sounds more like a muslim to me!Islam to a tee.
There all, KingTolerance by his own definition agrees that muslims are BIGOTS.

Posted by: D.T. at June 2, 2005 11:40 PM

You got it right skidd with the exception the people at risk are his compatriots who will have to put their lives on the line to pull his ass out of the fire cause he is over come.
WHat is the fightfighter = of serpico?

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at June 3, 2005 12:34 AM

Hey King Tolerance, Here is a link you need to follow. Read awhile and see if you agree with what you read.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html

Posted by: Carolyn2 at June 3, 2005 12:51 AM

Another link, KT.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50531.htm

Posted by: Carolyn2 at June 3, 2005 1:12 AM

KAOSKTRL, It doesn't look like they give a damn they are endangering their colleagues, or frustrating the mission they are paid to do. Once they are infected by Islam, they become Islamobots. They no longer do human decency and common sense like everyone else, only what their Islam dictates. These people are unemployable.

If you take them in you get trouble. With their bullying legal-jihadi CAIR behind them they will sue you for the trouble they cause.

Outrageous and non-reason are their established character traits.

Posted by: skidd at June 3, 2005 3:44 AM

"the truth about Islam is horrid. That's why it must be exposed. When one's very survival is at stake, political correctness is suicidal. Intelligent people do not tolerate the intolerant, or appease and pander to those who wish to destroy them."
Posted by: Susanp

Damn right.
We have a lot of people in the MSM, academia, and the establishment tolerating the intolerant, appeasing and pandering to these bastards who are working insidiously to destroy them.

To their destroyers these people are just stupid, suicidal, Useful Idiots.

Posted by: skidd at June 3, 2005 3:56 AM

The whole point about religious requirment of the beard is that it is not madatory in Islam to have a beard, unlike circumcision, for example. It therefore comes under the category of lifestyle choice. It is part of the sunnat, that is, the fashion for copying the Prophet, and is strongly advised, because the Prophet was the perfect man, apparently, but it is not mandatory. Therefore he should be denied the right to a beard if it conflicts with the rules of the job.

Posted by: Zico at June 3, 2005 5:09 AM

Susanp: "Intelligent people do not tolerate the intolerant, or appease and pander to those who wish to destroy them."

King replies: That's a fair satement, Susan, but it does not seem that you are able to separate the extremists and their interpretations and applications from the rest of those who practice Islam moderately. To me, this places you on the slippery slope of bigotry.

Prime example: I agree with all of you that this firefighter is clearly out of line. He is trying to apply a fundamental interpretation of the Koran to his current life. It simply does not work. A moderate would have not considered this and shaved the damn beard so he could get his work done. Period. Not Islam's fault, its the fault of the interpreter. See?

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 3, 2005 7:49 AM

And where are the vast majority of moderates around the world who are leaping out to remove these extremists from harming society, kt?

Posted by: Gary at June 3, 2005 9:10 AM

But KT, islam specifies that every single word, every phrase in the Quran is allah-given, and that the text must be taken in its entirety.

So who has more "islamic jurisprudence" on his side, the one who follows the Quranic injunction above, or the one who "cherry-picks"?

And why am I arguing with you again? You appear to know almost nothing about the entire issue, or about islam.

Or maybe you could actually read the Quran in its miniscularity.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 3, 2005 10:41 AM

btw kt, there is an article on JW that your input would be perfect for, as it deals with a moderate who is calling for understanding, as you also do. Why are you so studiously avoiding that side of the coin?

Have a safe weekend, everyone.

Posted by: Gary at June 3, 2005 11:30 AM

Mutt: "And where are the vast majority of moderates around the world who are leaping out to remove these extremists from harming society, kt?"

King replies: They're there. Why not try inviting one out for a coffee? They are doctors, street sweepers, butchers, mail carriers, and all other everyday sorts of folks. They want radical Islam to go away as badly as you do and they are working in ways you care not to see.

Geoff: "But KT, islam specifies that every single word, every phrase in the Quran is allah-given, and that the text must be taken in its entirety."

King: No, the extremist interpretations and applications of the Koran specify this. As I've said, the Koran is simply a book, as is the Bible. It is up to humans to moderate their interpretations in order to apply their religion in an appropriate fashion. Many Muslims to this. You seem to not want to accept that.

The Bible says Christians should "Keep holy the sabbath." So, if you miss one Sunday of church you are no longer a Christian if we extrapolate your point to the whole of Christianity. Right?
Having a Christian wedding means you are united under God, yet, divorce rates are higher thsan ever. FOllowing your lead, those Christians who have ben divorced are no longer Christian since they failed to follow the word of God.
Afterall, if its written in the Bible, which is the word of God, it must be followed. There are dozens, if not hundreds of things written in the Bible that devout Christians have long interpreted to fit into modern society since THEY HAVE NO MEANING IN TODAY'S WORLD. THIS IS CALLED A MODERATE AND ISLAM HAS MILIONS OF THEM.

Geoff: "And why am I arguing with you again? You appear to know almost nothing about the entire issue, or about islam."

King: You are welcome to pipe down anytime, Geoff. Unless one of your Islamic boogey men is holding an AK-47 to your head and flushing your Bible, you don't have to say one thing to me. Mmmmkay?

As for my knowledge of Islam, I have far, far more knowledge about the religion and its modern people than you will ever dream of having. Me being here to remind you of this is exactly why you have an issue with me.

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 3, 2005 11:34 AM

Not for nothing, KT, but your reliance on insult and the ad hominem attack does not serve you well. Your tendency to pat yourself on the back, combined with the above, gives you a rather juvenile "voice."

The comments section is here for debate and discussion, not as a place for you to stroke your ego. Adolescent posturing is not becoming.

As for your supposed "masses of moderate Muslims," the very worst sort of evil is when good men stand aside and do nothing in the face of evil. As evidenced by the utter lack of interest in anti-jihad positions by such "moderate" groups as CAIR, I would submit they are the moral equivalents of the neighbors who stood by as Kitty Genovese was raped and murdered, watching and listening, preferring not to be part of the solution. The silence of the "moderate Muslims" is deafening.

Posted by: Cthulhu at June 3, 2005 11:50 AM

King speculates: They [moderates] are there. They want radical Islam to go away as badly as you do and they are working in ways you care not to see.

Hell...is it "Meet your Local Jihadi Week" already? I thought that was next month. Ah well. They must be working in ways very few at all can see, since minus the Lackawannabrain cluster, there's been very, very few jihadis turned in by their coreligionists.

King: No, the extremist interpretations and applications of the Koran specify this. As I've said, the Koran is simply a book, as is the Bible. It is up to humans to moderate their interpretations in order to apply their religion in an appropriate fashion. Many Muslims to this. You seem to not want to accept that.

Geoff educates: Oh I accept it - and I also accept that while many muslims do indeed do this, many, many more do not - and have utterly no interest in doing so. Perhaps you ought deal with your co-religionists first, and then complain about how the victims of islam perceive it. Oops - did I say coreligionists? Maybe that was apt after all. See below.

KingTolerance continues: The Bible says Christians should "Keep holy the sabbath." So, if you miss one Sunday of church you are no longer a Christian if we extrapolate your point to the whole of Christianity. Right?
Having a blah blah blah whine whine poor point linkage full stop.

Gee, my response took about 27 seconds to find. How about: Matthew 15: 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'

In other words, it's the heart, stupid, not the ritual. Though I'd agree that if you actually go to church, that'd probably be more indicative that you have a good heart vis-a-vis JC n' whatnot.

Man, I should be a minister, I'm so damned smart.

But I notice that I touched a nerve there. And here I thought you said you weren't associated with islam? At least, that was the impression you tried to give earlier. I wonder if someone might remember that thread, and where that comment was posted. Why, you remember: the one where you were doing a school project with your nephew. Funny that you hit a site about islam doing that. Comparative religion project, minus the comparisons? LOL

Jack whines: Unless one of your Islamic boogey men is holding an AK-47 to your head and flushing your Bible, you don't have to say one thing to me.

LOL. No, no, KT. I'm here to mess with you. Trolling on here as a secularist - which I, unlike you, actually am - gets you no points of acceptance, and, instead, makes me smack you down all the harder.

KT dreams: "As for my knowledge of Islam, I have far, far more knowledge about the religion and its modern people than you will ever dream of having. Me being here to remind you of this is exactly why you have an issue with me."

Ding-ding. You just lost, moron. You claimed dissociation with islam when you got here, KT. But, you gave it all away!: "I have far, far more knowledge about the religion..."

(KT: Oh, nooo...)

This, mon ami, would be argument from unjustified authority and occurs inevitably whenever a nimrod gets pinned and starts bleating. In your case, because your raison d'etre is islam and your raison d'etre ici is da'wa/frustration, you slipped up by claiming vastly (ooooh, VASTLY! stupid kufr!) superior knowledge than I about islam. And I, after all, am an imam. =)

That and your hissy-fit about Mohammed on the other thread pretty much nailed that coffin shut, monkey-boy.

So, which sect are you? Sufi, I'd assume, if you're not just Ia with a slightly better spellchecker. Sunni? Let me know. The initial denial could be taqquiya, so I'm figuring there's maybe a 30% chance you're Shia (?), but the safe money is still on Sufi/Sunni.

Frankly, KT, you're welcome to be whatever religion you like - but before you can complain here, you first have to admit the problems in islam, and then, maybe instead of getting mad at the fact that they upset intelligent, honest folks such as ourselves, go fix them. They're really not our fault. (Seriously! Ask your leaders over yonder to chill out, or overthrow them or something. Man.) Then, when there's no fear that if we "defame" your prophet, you and your coreligionists are going to physically attack us, we can debate religion.

But frankly, you're not going to win the theological debate, old fella. I've analysed it both ways and the Quran don't wash. Maybe violence is your best bet, really. Are you sure Allah doesn't want you to go fight?

Imam Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 3, 2005 5:47 PM

I am glad to heard about all of those secret invisible moderate Muslim "street sweepers" etc. out there covertly reforming the Koran and undermining the fanatics! (Do they have a special handshake?)

I am so reassured!

Like the moderate guy fixing up a damaged mosque in Iraq who was killed today?

Or the moderates at the funeral in Afghanistan who were blown up yesterday?

Ah, well, there are so many of these clandestine Qu'ran refurbishers that I guess losing thousands of them to the extremists every month hardly matters.

Tell them to speak up a little more, King Tut-Tut.

Courage means using your visibility to oppose criminality.

Not hiding en masse behind the newspaper (reporting yet another moderate murdered) and pretending that 'reform' will just happen, somehow. Someday. Somewhere.

As Sgt. Schultz (in the old t.v. show "Hogan's Heroes") put it:

"I HEAR NOTHING! NOTHING!!!"

Crickets are louder than the moderate Muslims.

And more probably more effective.

(A jihadist could slip on one as he ran toward a checkpoint in his suicide vest, fall, and explode prematurely. Inshallah.)

Posted by: BigSleep at June 3, 2005 8:10 PM

I'm waiting for the day a Mosque burns to the ground and children die because Fire Fighters
were forced to take one of CAIR's "Sensitivity"
courses and were ordered not to enter until they removed their boots.

Safety and Labour Laws along with Insurance
clauses insist boots must be wore at all times,but the new PC rules tell you to remove them,if not you are to stay outside and allow
women and children to burn to death in the Mosque since it all has been pre-destined by Allah and
they'll only be dying for his cause and glory.

Welcome to the Islamic mindset,next will have
all Station shutting down during Muslim prayer times as not to offend the 1 Muslim that's on the force,God help us when they become surgeons and
leave during a brain operation to get all dirty
kneeling on the floor to pray.

Posted by: ala-sux at June 3, 2005 8:53 PM

Geoff: "Man, I should be a minister, I'm so damned smart"

King: You cannot be, you are already an Imanm and self proclaimed expert on Islam. You even know how much Muslims smoke and you know how to interpret the Koran. Yet, you find it in your heart to come here and fight like a little adolescent boy with all of the little adolescent words and posturing about how much you hate Islam. You need to work on relieving your boner for Islam before you think of becoming a minister. By the way - which of your insults did you decide to take off of the list since I called you a dick before? If you have not already figured out, the only use I have for you anymore is this stupid little tit for tat game we play. Do carry on since I find it rather fun to turn your words around to make you look like an ass. While I am at it, "Duh" the athletic supported is also quite fun to maniulated as is Gary (aka "Mutt" of the Mutt and Geoff show).

I responded to KJ last night, not you.

BigSnore: "Crickets are louder than the moderate Muslims"

King replies: So, too, is the ignorance around here louder than reason. The more you trumpet the louder your ignorance gets.

Here's a fresh idea: How about you tell me your detaild list on how to change the things you see wrong?

Ala-Sux blurted: "God help us when they become surgeons and leave during a brain operation to get all dirty kneeling on the floor to pray."

King replies: If this is the way you actually think then perhaps you really do need brain surgery.

Posted by: KingTolerance at June 6, 2005 8:21 AM