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The myth of Islamic tolerance is presented as fact in this AP story, "Anti-Semitism Conference Opens in Spain" (thanks to Seymour Paine for the link):
CORDOBA, Spain (AP) -- Governments must take concrete measures to fight anti-Semitism and other hate crimes, delegates to an international conference said Wednesday, meeting in a city where Jews, Muslims and Christians once lived in harmony.
The more often this sort of thing is repeated in this casual way, the more firmly it becomes lodged in the popular consciousness. And then the cries of "bigotry" begin against those who dare question it. Hitler found this an effective tactic in his day.
In fact, Muslim Spain was hardly a paradise for non-Muslims. Even Maria Rosa Menocal, in her extended whitewash of Muslim Spain called The Ornament of the World, admits that at the laws of dhimmitude were very much in force in the great Al-Andalus:
The dhimmi, as these covenanted peoples were called, were granted religious freedom, not forced to convert to Islam. They could continue to be Jews and Christians, and, as it turned out, they could share in much of Muslim social and economic life. In return for this freedom of religious conscience the Peoples of the Book (pagans had no such privilege) were required to pay a special tax — no Muslims paid taxes — and to observe a number of restrictive regulations: Christians and Jews were prohibited from attempting to proselytize Muslims, from building new places of worship, from displaying crosses or ringing bells. In sum, they were forbidden most public displays of their religious rituals.
So much for paradise. Also, historian Kenneth Baxter Wolf observes that “much of this new legislation aimed at limiting those aspects of the Christian cult which seemed to compromise the dominant position of Islam.” After enumerating a list of laws much like Menocal’s, he adds: “Aside from such cultic restrictions most of the laws were simply designed to underscore the position of the dimmîs as second-class citizens.” These laws were not uniformly or strictly enforced; Christians were forbidden public funeral processions, but one contemporary account tells of priests merely “pelted with rocks and dung” rather than being arrested while on the way to a cemetery.
If Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together peaceably and productively only with Christians and Jews relegated by law to second-class citizen status, then al-Andalus has absolutely no reason to be lionized in our age. The laws of dhimmitude give all of Menocal’s accounts of Jewish viziers and Christian diplomats the same hollow ring as the stories of prominent American blacks from the slavery and Jim Crow eras: yes, Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington were great men, but their accomplishments not only do not erase or contradict the records of the oppression of their people, but render them all the more poignant and haunting. Whatever the Christians and Jews of al-Andalus accomplished, they were still dhimmis. They enjoyed whatever rights and privileges they had not out of any sense of the dignity of all people before God, or the equality of all before the law, but at the sufferance of their Muslim overlords.
There is more on this in Onward Muslim Soldiers.
Posted by Robert at June 9, 2005 6:46 AM
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Anyone who has read the medieval literature of Spain knows better than "Jews, Muslims and Christians once lived in harmony" in Moorish Spain. See "El Cid," among others--the original-language work doesn't gloss over what happened. With all the students in the U.S. studying Spanish, one would think that a few of the advanced ones would know the truth and speak out.
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at June 9, 2005 7:54 AM
So is pelting a priest with dung better than, worse than, or equivalent to splashing a Koran with urine?
Posted by: Miss Moneypenney at June 9, 2005 8:32 AM
Read any good catalogue of Saints, for instance Attwater's PENGUIN BOOK OF SAINTS (the second edition, not the current one). Find out how many Christians ARE RECORDED to have been put to death in oh-so-tolerant Al-Andalus, how, and for what reason. Figure out how many more did not have the fortune to have a friend who survived and wrote an account of their martyrdom. Then work out how peaceful and respectful of the Christian majority was this enlightened Al-Andalus.
(You will also find out many interesting facts, such as that Aberrahman III, supposedly the greatest of all the Caliphs of Cordoba, was fair-haired and blue-eyed, because his mother was a slave concubine abducted from France; which gives new meaning to the expression "Muslim son-of-a-whore.")
Posted by: Paolo at June 9, 2005 11:44 AM
King reminds of the Spanish Inquisition, a period when Christianity was employed to rid the Iberian peninsula of heretics (i.e., spread Christianity by sword).
"The punishments and tortures used to gain confessions are the most famous parts of the Inquisition. Because the trials were for spiritual matters, the Church handled them. However, the punishments were usually very much physical, so they were handled by the state. There were many means of this physical torture for confession. The two most famous or infamous were the strappado or pulley, and the aselli or water torment. The strappado was a device that used ropes to strap a person in by their arms and legs, and then weights were attached to the ends of these ropes. The person was raised to a certain level and then the ropes were released."
"From the actions of the Spanish Inquisition, it is apparent it was an ethnic cleansing. The Spanish Inquisition and its actions caused 200,000 loyal, but Jewish, Spaniards to leave the country."
"The inquisition is like most other dark periods of history. It was primarily brought on because of prejudices and greed. When one people excel within a society and they make up the minority, they historically are labeled as scapegoats for the problems of the rest of society."
http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/64.htm
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 9, 2005 12:36 PM
The self-described "King" reminds me of some of the personality disorder descriptions I've read in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Health Ver. IV.
I've never read claims on this site that suggested that Jews were treated kindly by Christians, particularly during the Inquisition, so what was your point (as opposed to Muslim claims to have treated Jews benignly if not benevolently, so why even raise this.
And apologies were finally and officially extended a couple of years back, very specifically to Spanish Sephardic Jews (I think they were extended by the King of Spain, but not sure), only to set the Muslim claimants to "Al Andalus" off to whining.
Spain held the line and refused to extend the apology to the Muslims, noting that the Jewish population of Spain didn't come there as conquerers and never abandoned their Spanish dialect -- ladino -- even after centuries of exile, primarily in Morocco.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at June 9, 2005 12:53 PM
"I've never read claims on this site that suggested that Jews were treated kindly by Christians, particularly during the Inquisition, so what was your point"
King's point: You're so busy condemning radical Muslims that you fail to see what history has taught us - which is, that ANY RELIGION IS SUBJECT TO RADICALISM, EVEN YOUR PRECIOUS CHRISTIANITY. Plenty of blood has been spilled over the spread of Christianity and plenty of "cleansing" has been attempted. Plenty of Anti-Semitism, too. What seems to be ignored, here, is that you are behaving the exact same way by taking your "Islam is inherently evil" approach. You are talking "cleansing" talk like Hitler did.
Your issue is with radical interpretations of Islam.
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 9, 2005 1:07 PM
"Your issue is with radical interpretations of Islam. -- from a posting above.
No. There is no "issue" here. There is Islam itself, and not its supposedly "radical interporetations." In a few months a large collection of scholarly material on the history of Jihad, and on its legacy, will appear. French, German, Russian, English, American, Italian, Rumanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Greek and other historians of Islam -- some of the greatest of modern times -- have had their work collected, translated, and presented by Dr. Andrew Bostom. Jihad is not tangential but central to Islam. The need to spread Islam until it covers the globe is not tangential but central to Islam. The deliberate humiliation and degradation which is, at best, the fate of all non-Muslims under Muslim rule -- according to the well-developed principles of the Sharia (see Antoine Fattal's study of the legal status of non-Muslims under Islam) -- is not tangential but central to Islam.
No one here is discussing "radical interpretations" of Islam. We are discussing Islam. Period. If there are lackadaisical or non-observant Muslims, or even people who, for cultural reasos or out of embarrassment, or filial piety, or fear, continue to call themselves Muslims but have entirely abandoned their faith or never had it to begin with, those people can be called "moderates." But the fact that they do not accept all or much of Islam does not change the nature of Islam.
End of story.
Posted by: Hugh at June 9, 2005 1:31 PM
(Hey, I kinda like talking about myself in the third person. Wasn't this done on a Seinfeld episode?): During WWII, we wanted to rid the world of Nazis; we killed quite a lot of them (not nearly enough, unfortunately; and we also killed quite a number of good and decent Germans and Japanese in the process); I, at least, do not equate that with the Nazi's extermination of the Jews. The same way, Moslims, for the most part, want to rid of the world of Jews (and Christians, don't forget), so it is not intolerate of us to want to rid ourselves of them. If Moslems did not preach hate or believe in hate, I wouldn't hate them. But, unfortunately, they do, and therefore, I do.
at June 9, 2005 1:39 PM
"So is pelting a priest with dung better than, worse than, or equivalent to splashing a Koran with urine?"
Well let me throw rocks at you and a book and see which one bleeds first.
Intelligence, it's a gift. Use it
Posted by: ghond at June 9, 2005 1:39 PM
Part of my message got truncated because I enclosed it in greater than and lesser than symbols.
So, to repeat that part of it:
Seymour's Point:
(Hey, I kinda like talking about myself in the third person. Wasn't this done on a Seinfeld episode?)....
at June 9, 2005 1:41 PM
"No one here is discussing "radical interpretations" of Islam. We are discussing Islam. Period."
King replies: Black or white = radical thinking. "Period."
You're no better than those you hate and pretende to "know."
"The need to spread Islam until it covers the globe is not tangential but central to Islam"
King replies: The Inquisition showed us this about Christianity, too. So did the hundreds, if not thousands of Christian Missionaries sent to Latin America & South America (where natives where nearly wiped out by Christians if they did not convert), Africa, India and eventually the West Coast of the US (California). Only when Christians moderated did they emerge from the Dark Ages. SOME Muslims are now facing the same thing. Many Muslims are just fine, practicing their religion piously and peacfully.
"End of story."
King reples: No, this is only the beginning of the story...
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 9, 2005 1:52 PM
King Tut Tut-
As you note, the 'christians' came out of their Dark Ages. Mainly by realizing they were betraying the peaceful message of Christ (Sermon on the Mount ring a mosque bell?).
But, read plainly, without the intellectual contortionism used by the double-jointed apologists of Islam, the Koran does not speak of spreading a message of forgiveness, humility and peace.
So the question is:
-if you follow the Koran's written message, why would you NOT end up doing what the jihadist terrorist radicals are now engaged in: slaughtering innocent civilians and calling for the domination of all ("Peoples of the Book") infidels (and the incidental mere murder of all 'pagans'... shrug) and the conquest of all the world for Allah.
Unless the tyrannical despotic aspects of Imperialistic Islam hallowed in the 'holy' Koran are changed, then Muslims will meet disgust, resistence and defensive warfare from all non-Muslims.
It's the Koran, stupid.
And this is the (cheered on from Malaysia to Morocco) Dark Ages of the Muslim.
Get to work to change it.
Or it will meet the same fate as its sister cults of global dominion -who all crashed against the adamantine wall of the human desire for freedom of thought.
RIP Nazi-ism.
RIP Communism
RIP Fascism
RIP
[Your cult here?]
Posted by: BigSleep at June 9, 2005 2:52 PM
Shame on you Hugh. You probably would have lumped all of the peaceful, moderate nazis in with the extremist nazis that were radicalizing nazism in the ‘30s too...
Posted by: Belisarius at June 9, 2005 2:52 PM
There is one question about the Spanish Inquisition that needs to be answered: what explains its peculiar ferocity, as compared to other inquisitions carried out in other countries? Why was it that claiming to be a Catholic was not enough, so that Catholics of Jewish descent (so-called New Christians) were sometimes persecuted as Jews?
Could it not be because what was unique to Spain, and hence to the Spanish Inquisition, had to do with the long historical experience of Islam. Muslims well-versed in hiding their real aims, their real beliefs, may have led the Christians to a much greater suspicion of those deemed the enemy. Furthermore, dealing harshly with Jews may also have been prompted, in a phenomenon hardly unknown today, by an inability or unwillingness to take on, or even recognize, the real menace, and to substitute another, seemingly related menace -- which in fact, turns out to be no menace at all.
I maintain, for example, that those in France who recently voted against the European Constitution and who claimed to be worried about immigrants from Eastern Europe -- the mythical plombier polonais, or Polish plumber, not one of whom could be found in France, and none in Poland, when asked, expressed a wish to move to France -- was really a fear transferred from Muslim migrants, to others. There are those who openly discussed Muslim migration, and their opposition to Turkey's admission into Europe. But there were others who did not, would not, could not discuss their fears about Muslims, but could talk without inhibition about the "Polish plumber."
In Spain, the Inquisition began after the Jews had been expelled in 1492. Thus it was directed at those who were felt to be "pretending" to be Christians. But the Jews, by and large, did leave. It was the Muslims who were the enemy, the former conqueror and ruler, who when asked to leave in 1502 did not all leave -- but remained, and were a source of instability as "secret Muslims" who finally rose in revolt and then were expelled, once and for all, by Philip II in 1570.
Benzion Netanyahu's enormous "The Origins of the Spanish Inquisition" does not deal with this possiblity, though it notes that what had been anti-Judaism was transformed into "racial antisemitism" during the Spanish Inquisition. I cannot find in other authorities -- from Henry Lea to Henry Kamen -- a discussion of how the ferocity of Muslim hostility and Muslim rule, and the studied ability of Muslims to disguise their beliefs and intent may in turn help to explain the peculiar nature of the Spanish Inquisition. Surely the peculiar ferocity of the Conquistadores in Spanish America can be explained by the hard men who, inured to warfare during the Reconquista, did not change their methods, manners, or morals when they left Spain for the New World.
A line of inquiry for some graduate student, or some professor: how did the encounter with Islam affect the unique nature of the Spanish Inquisition?
Posted by: Hugh at June 9, 2005 3:06 PM
Belisarius, you are exactly right. I would have.
Posted by: Hugh at June 9, 2005 3:07 PM
Me too.
Posted by: Belisarius at June 9, 2005 3:17 PM
BigSnore: RIP Nazi-ism. RIP Communism. RIP Fascism
RIP [Your cult here]?
King replies: So you are still unable to distinguish between the political and religious facets to this entire issue and you are still confused. There, there. King is here to teach you and bring you back to reality.
In case you have not heard:
1. Nazis were a political party, not a religion. They subscribed to the exact same kind of ideology that you are subscribing to and killed millions based on their religion and or religious ties.
Many Nazis also twisted Christianity to suit their foul agenda.
2. Communism is an economic and political system based on the principle "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." It is a far left approach. It, too, is not a religion but was subject to radicalism and corruption just as religion is.
3. Facsism is quite the opposite to communism, a far-right political model that is as equally as oppressive and corrupt as its communist counterpart. It, too, is not a religion. One could argue that the US is currently under a weak fascist regime. One could also argue that fascist-style governments are what allow radical Islam to thrive, further corrupting issues.
4. [Your cult here] I presume meant Islam. Here is where you expose your profuse confusion as you try to correlate a religion with governments/politics. While Islam certainly has been incorprated into some governments in the world, this incorporation has created the radicalism and corruption we now see, and that you actually hate. The religion itself and many of the people who practice it are certainly not the enemy nor are they the issue.
at June 9, 2005 3:41 PM
"Nazis were a political party, not a religion..."
The Nazis were just another politcal party just like the Democrats or Republicans, right? Of course islam is just another religion, just like Christianity of Budhism?
Glad you're here to teach us your naive points of view King Ignorance...
Posted by: Belisarius at June 9, 2005 4:09 PM
MMMMMMMM . . .
Hugh mentions . . .
In a few months a large collection of scholarly material on the history of Jihad, and on its legacy, will appear.
Well, all I want for Christmas is , er . . .well, you didn't give the title of Dr. Andrew Bostom's upcoming work - but I want it!!! Kindly keep us informed of the time/place to pre-order. :D
Posted by: miira at June 9, 2005 4:14 PM
Belisarius: "The Nazis were just another politcal party just like the Democrats or Republicans, right?"
King replies: Read my post again, you are creating words. I did not compare the Nazi party to Dems or Reps. I drew out a comparison on how it is quite literally an apples and oranges argement to compare a religion to a political party. While it is apparent that you missed the comparitive nature of the post, it is funny to see you try and "catch me" based on your inability to read.
Belisarius: "Of course islam is just another religion, just like Christianity of Budhism?"
King: Right! Islam is just another religion. It also happens to be practiced by 1/4 of the world's population and we have to live on this planet with them, like it or not. SO its high time to quit hatin' and start understandin'.
Belisarius: "Glad you're here to teach us your naive points of view King Ignorance..."
King: I am too! Although, I would hesitate to use the word "naive" If I were you. Afterall, you are already lost the lesson I taught above. You're a perfect Dhimmi Watcher! LOL.
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 9, 2005 4:19 PM
For Belisarius' enrichment:
N.A.Z.I. = "National Socialist German Workers Party"
The King continues to give.....
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 9, 2005 4:21 PM
King Oblivious,
Your insistence that islam is just another religion completely validates my assessment of your naivety. I doubt many muslims (moderate or otherwise) would agree with you that islam is 'just another religion' to be treated in equal company with other religions.
As any muslim child would be able to point out to you, islam is far more than a 'religion', fit only for personal spiritual consumption. Surely a person of your intellect is aware of the ready made political state found in islam? Complete with rules to govern all aspects of temporal life, right down to how one should treat non-believers?
Oh, and N.A.Z.I. isn't an acronym for the party's full name. It's an abbreviation of 'Nazional', the German word for 'national'. You were on the right track, keep trying and someday you'll get there.
at June 9, 2005 4:47 PM
King: Right! Islam is just another religion. It also happens to be practiced by 1/4 of the world's population and we have to live on this planet with them, like it or not. SO its high time to quit hatin' and start understandin'.
So king...lets see if you understand this:
Book of Jihad, on page 580 of Maktba Dar-us-Salam’s publication of Sahih Al-Bukhari: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its Pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah is made superior and He becomes the only God who may be worshiped. By Jihad Islam is propagated and made superior. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position. Their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, and Muslim rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape this duty dies as a hypocrite".
Lets see if you can pick Bukhari's work apart sentence by sentence...
King gurgles, "Bukhari? Who dat?
Duh_swami, chortles, "Thats what I thought"...
at June 9, 2005 6:07 PM
Hugh said: "A line of inquiry for some graduate student, or some professor: how did the encounter with Islam affect the unique nature of the Spanish Inquisition?"
I have already thought about this. You are right that no one to date has addressed it, but when reading Henry Kamen's book on the Inquisition, I was reminded (while reading the chapter on the workings of the Inquisition) of the same methods used by the Muslims, in particular the Almohads. I thought the influence of Islam went deeper than anyone has previous thought. This would make for a magnificent book, along with my other two topics: conquest of Spain in 711 and why the Jews weren't involved, and the expulsion of the Jews in 1492 and why they didn't go to Turkey. Pretty neat eh? *grin*
Posted by: Ibn Rushd at June 9, 2005 6:09 PM
Miira, the book by Andy Bostom (forward by Ibn Warraq) is called "The Legacy of Jihad" and a subtitle that I can't recall. If you search on Amazon for that title, you can already preorder, along with Spencer's "non-PC guide to Crusades".
Posted by: Ibn Rushd at June 9, 2005 6:10 PM
KT: ( Mr. kitman & taqyyia)
The NAZI's were not christian. The NAZI's were faschists and Adolph Hitler was their 'prophet'- The swastica was their symbol just like the crescent moon is for the cult of Mohammedans.
Take all that crap about inquisition and conquistadores and rub it! Do you feel threatened by Christians or Jews? I don't.
Their churches don't bother me. The synagogues don't bother me.
What bothers me is that we should live in fear of your lunatic terrorist 'Muslim brothers'- who are filling our prisons,blow up trains, airplanes, Schools, nightclubs, plot terrorist attacks, rape infidel girls, infiltrate our countries, exploiting welfare, bringing nothing more than hatred into the community and intend to introduce 'Sharia'. No, I don't think we have to live with that.
King:
"Right! Islam is just another religion. It also happens to be practiced by 1/4 of the world's population and we have to live on this planet with them, like it or not. SO its high time to quit hatin' and start understandin'."
The 'quarter of the worlds population' : That is the usual Muzzie claptrap: Just like a cane-toad blows himself up when feeling threatened. We have to live on this planet with them? Perhaps. But they shouldn't live with us. Are we going to the ME or to Africa to live with them? Hardly.
Finally: Islamics suck in the hatred with the mothers milk. That is your culture! It's not ours, therefore we won't have any of it and that's why you all shall be interned and deported.
at June 9, 2005 6:20 PM
KT:
"Islam just another religion"-NO, it is not.
It is an ideology based on conquest and booty. A scheme to subjugate and to whack the free world into 'submission' to a blood cult.
The 'religion' - bit is worthless. That only helps to keep the believers stupid.
Who wants to bow and pray (what?) five times a day?
Posted by: Terminator at June 9, 2005 6:29 PM
King's point: You're so busy condemning radical Muslims that you fail to see what history has taught us - which is, that ANY RELIGION IS SUBJECT TO RADICALISM, EVEN YOUR PRECIOUS CHRISTIANITY.
kt~ I am getting seriously SICK of you repeating that mantra.
You can't point to ONE sinlge instance of Christianity's mistakes that is less than a CENTURY OLD.
And we have both learned from, and put those BEHIND US. Long behind us. Never to be Repeated.
The paranoid likes of giaour notwithstanding.
When we see Christianity killing people around the world, TODAY, EVERY DAY-
Then you can mope about it.
In the meantime, we shall continue to watch, report upon, comment upon, and hopefully, SURVIVE what ISLAM is doing TODAY, EVERY DAY, IN VIRTUALLY EVERY COUNTRY ON THE GLOBE.
Hype over that all you wish. I'm beat and I won't be back to read your useless rants any time soon.
Posted by: Gary at June 9, 2005 6:48 PM
Hugh,
You wrote "Could it not be because what was unique to Spain, and hence to the Spanish Inquisition, had to do with the long historical experience of Islam. Muslims well-versed in hiding their real aims, their real beliefs, may have led the Christians to a much greater suspicion of those deemed the enemy."
Yes! Taqquiya (sp?) drove them to it. And some of the brutalities of the Inquisition were learned from some of the treatment of native Spaniards at the hands of the Moors [See Ibn Rushd posting on this matter]. Plus, there was the revenge issue. The Moors committed so many atrocities that retaliation was exacted.
I cannot cite a reference for the following: I believe that part of the reason the Spanish persecuted the Jews was that many Muslims pretended to be Jews in order to stay on the Iberian Peninsula. That's what my Spanish Civ professor said to our class back in 1971, but I don't have my notes anymore.
In the words of Terminator: Islam is "an ideology based on conquest and booty."
Posted by: WatchfulEye at June 9, 2005 7:03 PM
"It also happens to be practiced by 1/4 of the world's population..."
--- from a posting above.
No, Muslims do not make up 1/4 of the world's population, and anyone who makes this mistake is inadvertently contributing to the myth of Muslims sweeping the board, of non-Muslims swooning and converting to Islam, of the inevitable triumph of Islam.
In fact, if you go through, laboriously, every single one of the Muslim countries, and add their populations (deducting for any known adherents to another religion, but assuming that all others are Muslims even though that may include silent dissenters), and then add in the numbers for Muslims in the Infidel lands, you cannot possibly arrive at a figure beyond 1 billion. Yet we routinely hear that there are 1.2 billion Muslims, then 1.3 million, then 1.4 billion, and sometimes even 1.5 billion -- slipped in rather casually, without explanation, as if we will simply accept it.
Not me.
Of the 6.5 billion people in the world, no more than 1 billion are Muslim. Let's rounnd it off, however, upwards -- and say that 15% of the world's population is Muslim. If it is growing, that is only thanks to the medical advances that are entirely a product of the Western world, to the food that is supplied by the Western world, to the education and technology supplied by the Western world.
As for conversions to Islam, there are sustained campaigns of Da'wa among the economically and above all psychically marginal, that have some effect, but greater awareness of those campaigns and greater willingness of Infidels to fight them, can now be observed. Muslim websites have complained, in particular, about nominal Muslims in Black Africa who have sloughed off Islam and accepted Christianity. Possibly the Arab treatment of even Muslim blacks, as in Darfur, Mali, Mauritania -- has had its effect.
And apostates from Islam? Many in Iran, possibly millions, and many others whose identity we do not know, and who will not, out of mortal fear, declare themselves.
But please, those who see what Islam is all about, do not repeat the claims made by Muslims. That is part of their propaganda.
at June 9, 2005 8:07 PM
I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.
The point of the article is not to deny that the Inquisition happened, or to imply that only Islam has been used for evil purposes. The reason the above article is talking about dhimmitude, and not the Inquisition is twofold:
1. There is no government or global insurgent movement dedicated to reviving the Spanish Inquisition.
2. No self-respecting media outlet would would be so deluded as to claim the Inquisition was a time of peace and harmony, yet they have made that mistake through their ignorance of the reality of dhimmitude.
If those conditions were true of the Inquisition, then we would need an InquisitionWatch. Happily that is not the case.
Copying from one of my earlier posts: A Muslim recently told me "Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life". Another Muslim, and it seems quite a knowledgable one at that, echoes the sentiment: "In Islam, the word “religion” means way of life, a way of living that includes all aspects of life, be they spiritual, moral, social, economic, or even political."
See the full text over at
http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/politics/Politics/article03.shtml
including the section on "Servitude to Allah Includes Government".
The scholar I just linked to claims that secular government is incompatible with Islam, and plenty of others agree with him. I'll issue my usual request: if any scholar has explained how the Qur'an allows for separation of church and state, please post the details here.
Changing subject, if there's one thing that most Christians and Muslims can agree on, it's that Christianity and Islam are not the same. Actually there are more things that they would agree on, but to say that Islam is "just another religion" is at best condescending. Disregarding any divine inspiration that may be present in either or both religions, Islam and Christianity were founded by very different people in very different circumstances. Their formative years were very different, Christianity survived as an apolitical underground movement, suffering sporadic bouts of brutal persecution. Islam formed the basis for the spiritual, political, social and economic leadership of an entire and rapidly expanding society. Christianity was denounced as divisive, Islam was hailed as cohesive. I would be amazed if two religions that emerged in such different environments would be the same, and I think that anyone who claims that they are the same has some explaining to do.
Posted by: Viking5 at June 9, 2005 8:07 PM
Oh King! Read this link. They are muslim, they say islam is not a religion, but a system of belief and government (all-encompassing)
Posted by: Carolyn2 at June 9, 2005 8:15 PM
The link
http://www.islamic-state.org/
at June 9, 2005 8:16 PM
Hugh wrote "Could it not be because what was unique to Spain, and hence to the Spanish Inquisition, had to do with the long historical experience of Islam. Muslims well-versed in hiding their real aims, their real beliefs, may have led the Christians to a much greater suspicion of those deemed the enemy."
It's an OLD tactic:
002.113 The Jews say: "The Christians have naught to stand upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught To stand upon." Yet they Profess to study the same Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. {{{ And that is just one of the many writings that can be found in the Koran -concerning the quarrel between the Jews and the Christians.
The real quarrel - over the Son of God - is actually among the Jews - alone.
If not for the testimony of Jews - there would be no Christians. Christians can in no way disagree with the Jews who gave testimony to Jesus while He was with them - how else could they be Christians?
The Jews of the time of Christ knew that God would send His Son - they just didn't believe that Son was Jesus.
The Koran 'stirs the pot' so to speak - of the bitterness over this issue.
That practice is hated by the Lord...
Pro 6:16 things doth the LORD hate:
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Pro 17:19 He loveth transgression that loveth strife: and he that exalteth his gate seeketh destruction.
Pro 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
It is the Koran that - is sending out murderers - a fact of these days.
All one has to do - is read it. And because it is still speaking - in these days - our days - it doesn't matter one bit how many lies are told about how different religions got along so many years ago. {That's not addressing the issue at hand - The Koran and what it really does teach.
at June 9, 2005 9:04 PM
Thank you Ibn Rushd!
Posted by: miira at June 9, 2005 9:15 PM
You're very welcome. Just helping out.
Posted by: Ibn Rushd at June 10, 2005 1:44 AM
Terminator: "The NAZI's were not christian."
King thanks you for the news flash.
Terminator: "Take all that crap about inquisition and conquistadores and rub it!"
King: Why? Is it bothering you to larn that Christianity his responsible for one of the most horrific, bloody periods in human history?
Term: "Do you feel threatened by Christians or Jews?"
King: I am threatened by all super religious people. Especially the ones who are trying to excoriate the separation of church and state. I find them quite threatening.
Term: "Their churches don't bother me. The synagogues don't bother me."
King: I am glad you are not bothered by buildings.
Terminator: "What bothers me is that we should live in fear of your lunatic terrorist 'Muslim brothers'- who are filling our prisons,blow up trains, airplanes..."
King: You are referring to terroristic, criminal behaviors unbecoming of a peaceful person. Religion has nothing to do with it, politics and corruption has everything to do with it.
Terminator: "I don't think we have to live with that."
King: I agree! I think we can do better and it starts by understadning how religion, politics, culture and corruption are all working together to create radicalism.
Terminator: "But they shouldn't live with us. Are we going to the ME or to Africa to live with them? Hardly."
King: Racist bigot.
Terminator: "Islamics suck in the hatred with the mothers milk. That is your culture!"
King: I am not Muslim, nor am I from the M.E. so you are making a false implication about "my" culture. I am born and raised in the US. I just so happen to see right through your little hysterical xenophobic rage and I am not afraid to tell you about it...
Terminator continued: "It's not ours, therefore we won't have any of it and that's why you all shall be interned and deported."
King: More racist, xenophobic bigotry. Well done Herr Terminator! You are added to the illustrious "Dhimmi Watcher" list.
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 10, 2005 8:00 AM
Hey 'king'
Who has the Most Authority over the Christians? Answer: The New Testament does
Who has the Most Authroity over the Muslims? Answer: The Koran does
you said:
Is it bothering you to larn that Christianity his responsible for one of the most horrific, bloody periods in human history?
Give the New Testament Scriptures where humans are commanded to hurt each other.
Until you do? You either don't know what you are talking about - OR - you're a liar.
you said:
referring to terroristic, criminal behaviors unbecoming of a peaceful person. Religion has nothing to do with it, politics and corruption has everything to do with it.
Well - the Koran will call you a liar. PROOF:
004.101 When ye travel through the earth , there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
009.005 fight and slay the Pagans ''''wherever'''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.
008.067 It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war [slay them] until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. [TREASON in America]
009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?
009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.
009.030 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; in this they but imitate what ''' the unbelievers ''' of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.
047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!]
Unless the Koran is confronted - there will be bloodshed} especially against the Jews and Christians - also called apes and pigs by the Koran
at June 10, 2005 1:13 PM
"I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition."
-- from a posting above
No one does.
at June 10, 2005 1:43 PM
King Tolerance's common Leftist knee-jerk reaction above is quickly dispensed with by the following two points:
1) Western Civilization since the time of the Spanish Inquisition has changed and progressed with astonishing breadth and depth. Islamic Civilization has not only NOT progressed since its ambiguous "golden age" era, it has positively REgressed -- and this regression is now increasingly causing misery & mayhem all over the globe and threatening the West.
2) Western academics, students, politicians, and media pundits have for at least the past 50 years deeply criticized their own West's legacy of the Spanish Inquisition: Therefore, we don't need to be reminded of how bad it was. On the other hand, not only do we RARELY hear about how bad Islamic Spain was, we have increasingly over the past 25 years or so heard about how wonderful it was and how superior it was to the barbaric West.
Posted by: metaxy at June 10, 2005 2:30 PM
The supposedly "tolerant" Islamic Spain:
It was a common occurence for Muslim rulers to publicly behead Christians, whose only crime was to publicly declare that Mohammed was not a Prophet and/or that Jesus Christ is Son of God.
Many Christians were intrepid enough (or foolhardy enough, depending on your perspective) to play with fire in this barbaric situation they found themselves in: seeking passive martyrdom, Christians would, on purpose, go out in public and declare these "criminal" theological statements, precisely in order to be arrested and beheaded, so they could be living (and dying) witnesses to their own faith.
If those Spanish Christians were foolhardy, that does not excuse the hideous barbarity of the official Muslim rule to behead them in public over mere acts of free speech.
(Secondly, note how different that type of Christian martyrdom was from the current Islamic martyrdom that has become pandemic in the world: the former is passive and results only in the death of the martyr; the latter is actively homicidal and targets random masses of innocent civilians.)
at June 10, 2005 2:37 PM
KT responds: (KT stands for Kitman & Taqiyya)
Terminator: "The NAZI's were not christian."
King thanks you for the news flash.
Terminator: "Take all that crap about inquisition and conquistadores and rub it!"
King: Why? Is it bothering you to larn that Christianity his responsible for one of the most horrific, bloody periods in human history?
Term: "Do you feel threatened by Christians or Jews?"
King: I am threatened by all super religious people. Especially the ones who are trying to excoriate the separation of church and state. I find them quite threatening.
Term: "Their churches don't bother me. The synagogues don't bother me."
King: I am glad you are not bothered by buildings.
Terminator: "What bothers me is that we should live in fear of your lunatic terrorist 'Muslim brothers'- who are filling our prisons,blow up trains, airplanes..."
King: You are referring to terroristic, criminal behaviors unbecoming of a peaceful person. Religion has nothing to do with it, politics and corruption has everything to do with it.
Terminator: "I don't think we have to live with that."
King: I agree! I think we can do better and it starts by understadning how religion, politics, culture and corruption are all working together to create radicalism.
Terminator: "But they shouldn't live with us. Are we going to the ME or to Africa to live with them? Hardly."
King: Racist bigot.
Terminator: "Islamics suck in the hatred with the mothers milk. That is your culture!"
King: I am not Muslim, nor am I from the M.E. so you are making a false implication about "my" culture. I am born and raised in the US. I just so happen to see right through your little hysterical xenophobic rage and I am not afraid to tell you about it...
Terminator continued: "It's not ours, therefore we won't have any of it and that's why you all shall be interned and deported."
King: More racist, xenophobic bigotry. Well done Herr Terminator! You are added to the illustrious "Dhimmi Watcher" list.
Terminator responds:
Your hysterics give you away.
Your limited ability to debate issues give you away. Your kitman/taqiyya gives you away.
You make no point. You are calling me racist without knowing what race I am.
You are calling me religious bigot without knowing whether I am religious or an atheist.
You are repeating the same lines (and lies) too often not to be a Mohammedan.
You are calling me 'xenophobic' without knowing that my family and my business spans worldwide and includes many nationalities and different races.
Your history is too selective for you not to be a Mohammedan.
Be sure to glue your coffee-filter properly to your head and be sure not to fart when you do your gymnastics to Mekka!
at June 10, 2005 7:22 PM
Metaxy:
That is what I was speaking of in my post early in this thread. While history textbooks were filling themselves with the Golden Myth of Al-Andalus, this wonderful land, anyone who studied some hagiology - not a popular study, alas, in our secular age - could easily find out just how many Christian martyrs have watered Spanish soil with their blood. What happened in countries where Christianity did not survive and Christian records were lost - North Africa, Nubia, Arabia itself - does not bear thinking about.
at June 11, 2005 3:53 PM
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