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Do you wonder why we call it the New Duranty Times? Peter Bergen and Swati Pandy write about "The Madrassa Myth" without once dealing with what is taught at those Madrassas.
IT is one of the widespread assumptions of the war on terrorism that the Muslim religious schools known as madrassas, catering to families that are often poor, are graduating students who become terrorists. Last year, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell denounced madrassas in Pakistan and several other countries as breeding grounds for "fundamentalists and terrorists." A year earlier, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld had queried in a leaked memorandum, "Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?"While madrassas may breed fundamentalists who have learned to recite the Koran in Arabic by rote, such schools do not teach the technical or linguistic skills necessary to be an effective terrorist. Indeed, there is little or no evidence that madrassas produce terrorists capable of attacking the West. And as a matter of national security, the United States doesn't need to worry about Muslim fundamentalists with whom we may disagree, but about terrorists who want to attack us.
We examined the educational backgrounds of 75 terrorists behind some of the most significant recent terrorist attacks against Westerners. We found that a majority of them are college-educated, often in technical subjects like engineering. In the four attacks for which the most complete information about the perpetrators' educational levels is available - the World Trade Center bombing in 1993, the attacks on the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, the 9/11 attacks, and the Bali bombings in 2002 - 53 percent of the terrorists had either attended college or had received a college degree. As a point of reference, only 52 percent of Americans have been to college. The terrorists in our study thus appear, on average, to be as well educated as many Americans.
While this is true, it doesn't necessarily follow that the madrassas are nothing to worry about.
The 1993 World Trade Center attack involved 12 men, all of whom had a college education. The 9/11 pilots, as well as the secondary planners identified by the 9/11 commission, all attended Western universities, a prestigious and elite endeavor for anyone from the Middle East. Indeed, the lead 9/11 pilot, Mohamed Atta, had a degree from a German university in, of all things, urban preservation, while the operational planner of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, studied engineering in North Carolina. We also found that two-thirds of the 25 hijackers and planners involved in 9/11 had attended college.Of the 75 terrorists we investigated, only nine had attended madrassas, and all of those played a role in one attack - the Bali bombing. Even in this instance, however, five college-educated "masterminds" - including two university lecturers - helped to shape the Bali plot.
Like the view that poverty drives terrorism - a notion that countless studies have debunked - the idea that madrassas are incubating the next generation of terrorists offers the soothing illusion that desperate, ignorant automatons are attacking us rather than college graduates, as is often the case. In fact, two of the terrorists in our study had doctorates from Western universities, and two others were working toward their Ph.D.
A World Bank-financed study that was published in April raises further doubts about the influence of madrassas in Pakistan, the country where the schools were thought to be the most influential and the most virulently anti-American. Contrary to the numbers cited in the report of the 9/11 commission, and to a blizzard of newspaper reports that 10 percent of Pakistani students study in madrassas, the study's authors found that fewer than 1 percent do so. If correct, this estimate would suggest that there are far more American children being home-schooled than Pakistani boys attending madrassas.
Sooo, home schooling is just as bad as the madrassas? Now you know why we call it the New Duranty Times. In this case, think Jimmy.
Posted by Rebecca at June 14, 2005 5:17 PM
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Is that the same Peter Bergen that interviewed OBL twice?
He should know better...
Strange how these guys pop up with some kind of agenda!
Posted by: Terminator![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at June 14, 2005 7:02 PM
So, liquor stores don't make alcholics.
Fast food stores don't make people obese.
Christian schools don't make Christian terrorists.
The majority of people that have been arrested state that they learned Jihad in the madrassas and their requirement to kill.
They may have learned how to operate a gun or build a bomb from someone else, but the mind was already created.
Posted by: alaskan1000 at June 14, 2005 7:13 PM
The authors of this preposterous piece are missing the larger point. The larger point is this: the teachings in madrasas naturally have a great effect not only on this who graduate from these madrasas, but they in turn inhibit discussion and the development of any critical attitude toward Islam that might, in the end, help lessen its hold on the minds of its adherents.
"Terrorism" does not exist in a vacuum. It comes out of a world -- the world of Islam. These college-graduates may not have attended a madrasa, but why should they? Most of them were Saudis, and in Saudi Arabia the entire education system is effectively one vast madrassa. It is silly to think that with millions of students in Pakistan memorizing the 6,300 odd verses of the Qur'an rather than learning anything else, that this will not only stunt and direct their minds, making them unfit for much more than chanting their support for Bin Laden in the streets, but also cause them to create the kind of world in which the rulers of Pakistan must operate, and inhibit any real attempt to ally themselves (other than temporarily, for reasons of transparent self-interest) with Infidels.
Bergen is one more example of those sudden "experts" that the last few years have thrown up. They are mostly mere reporters. They think that their intrepid treks through Afgthanistan, or their scoops with Bin Laden, make them experts on 1) the tenets of Islam 2) how those tenets are inculcated 3) how, even among those who never go to mosques, those tenets deeply affect the attitudes 4) how those tenets and attitudes pervade Muslim societies in a way that few outsiders can comprehend, least of all those who are engaged in the scoop-getting business, the interview, the mere reporting with which we are all familiar and 5) why it is that even seemingly completely relaxed and unobservant Muslims, who are willing to mock some of its practices, can turn on a dime, and become furious when any Infidel attacks Islam in the slightest and 6) why Muslims of all stripes are willing to lie about Islam to Infidels, some out of sinister motives, others out of embarrassment, still others out of a filial piety so deep that nothing can shake it.
These, and what might be called the "psychology of the Muslim" -- see the work, sometimes wrongheaded but often absolutely right -- of Andre Servier, who lived in Constantine, in Algeria, in the first decades of this century, and was one of the most acute observers and analysts of Muslim societies and peoples and mentalities.
There are so many of these "experts" who then end up at some Think-Tank, or some place where they can parlay their phony expertise into getting on the "war-on-terror" payroll. And they are so obviously limited in their ability to analyze and make sense of things. But there they go. And there they are published. Ande there they misinform and delude, because they cannot themselves fully comprehend.
Maddening.
Posted by: Hugh at June 14, 2005 7:27 PM
The common denominator is not madrassas, it is Islam.
These guys investigative reporting is trying to tie relativities together. They completly miss the point. The point is Islam.
Posted by: alaskan1000 at June 14, 2005 7:27 PM
With all due respect, I think Spencer's comments on this one are a bit off. For instance, the article said nothing about madrassas being better or worse than homeschoolers, so that comment was a bit off.
Also, if a study of 75 terrorists shows that most of them were educated in the West and hardly any were educated in madrassas, then that's what the study shows. That being the case, maybe we should be more worried about Muslim students in Western schools than in Muslim ones. Looks like the authors of the article dropped the ball on that one.
What I think the article and Spencer both missed is the madrassas' (or somebody's) role in all of those Pakistani freaks who are always forming mobs and burning people in effigy, screaming bloody murder against the US for no legitimate reason. If the madrassas aren't fueling those flames, then then they aren't fueling them. That's fine, and in that case, somebody else is doing it.
And if your average Pakistani scream-for-the-cameras people aren't out bombing airplanes or whatnot, then they're certainly hostile to us - that may not lead directly to American deaths, but it makes relations with anyone outside of Pakistan's tiny Westernized elite impossible. Which is a problem, considering they're nuclear.
In light of the fact that they're mostly illiterate, they must be getting their info from somewhere. Maybe the article should have mentioned mosques or Pakistani/Muslim media.
Posted by: scissor at June 14, 2005 7:37 PM
Hugh wrote... in Saudi Arabia the entire education system is effectively one vast madrassa...
Excellent point. But don't tell Bush his boyfriend is the leader of the largest madrassah of hate in the world.
Posted by: reset at June 14, 2005 8:21 PM
Scissor wrote...all of those Pakistani freaks who are always forming mobs and burning people in effigy, screaming bloody murder against the US for no legitimate reason. ...
There are always mobs doing nothing, looking for something to do in a backward, uneducated, poverty stricken shack around back country like Pakistan. Activists don't have to scrounge around to get a mob together, they're always there, waiting for something to do other than go to mosque.
Posted by: reset at June 14, 2005 8:32 PM
Scissor,
The comments are a bit off because they are mine, not Robert's. I probably should have saved that one for him to do, but right now he's away from the office.
I wanted to put it up to see what you guys would say about it. I thought it was a total joke.
Hugh -
Man, I always enjoy your posts. I could sit here all day reading the site. Everyone makes interesting comments here.
Best to all,
Rebecca
at June 14, 2005 9:15 PM
The point is that the kids in the Madrassahs learn nothing useful. Nothing but the Koran, which amounts to nothing.
Fanatical kids later turn to adults with no education that is of any use to the modern world. They may make good mudjaheddin, they may make good suicide bombers, but they will not build computers, they will produce nothing that we want to buy (apart from the carpets that come out of Pakistan produced by child labour) and they will always be more than willing Jihadi's for Islam: They know nothing else.
Sure, those types may simply be too dumb and too primitive to go to flight School and learn how to do mid-air turns. But for Peter Bergen to claim that Madrassahs do not produce terror, that is by all means a strange claim.
Posted by: Terminator at June 14, 2005 9:45 PM
The fatal error in this article is in the sentence "...the United States doesn't need to worry about the Muslim fundamentalists with whom we may disagree, but about terrorists who want to kill us."
In effect, this says that terrorists are not Muslim fundamentalists. Wrong.
Or that Muslim fundamentalists, who are not now terrorists, will never become terrorists. Wrong, again.
The rest of their diatribe is merely a muddying of the waters. They smudge the intellectual lens through which we view the current struggle against militant Muslim maniacs. Bringing up irrelevant side issues (-home schooling? -college education comparisons?) which allow the writers to obscure the life-and-death core of this fateful and fatal problem by sidetracking the reader onto odd trains of thought that make the West somehow seem to be morally equivalent to the terrorists.
Because we TOO went to college? (As did many 9/11 terrorist scum.) Or are schooled in ways as 'untraditional' as the kids in madrassas? ("At home", in this instance.)
What are the authors really trying to say?
Other than to dilute the sense of the threat from the terrorists, in effect, and to lead the audience into an enervating inertia by getting us distracted with inane comparisons.
The unspoken logic is intiguing.
Why they didn't just find a real story to tell -instead of saying: "Nope, no bullets in this gun"- reveals something about the motives of the writers.
There are plenty of "guns" with "live ammo" out there (crucial stories of vital importance needing to be exposed NOW). But these two reporters chose, consciously, NOT to find them.
And the result of their work is: there is no story to report here.
Like Geraldo Rivera opening up "Al Capone's safe" on t.v only to find it was empty.
Strange.
And stranger still that somebody printed it.
Posted by: BigSleep
at June 15, 2005 12:16 AM
Bergen may have a very valid point. A further common denominator among many leading Islamists, including Turgut Ozal of Turkey, who moderated positions learned from his mentor, Necmetin Erdokan, is that many of them are also engineers by training.
The Madrassas are turning out nothing but the cannon fodder; not the leaders. And, perhaps, they're also turning out a lot of kids who won't be cannon fodder. The moment of reckoning for many of these will not come on a battlefield facing American soldiers, but when they find themselves with a hungry, nagging wife and hungry children. I suspect that in the future, any of us who go to a quiet, normalized Pakistan may well find that the kebab seller, janitor, and similar sorts are madrassa-educated, and their number one priority won't be killing the kaffir customer, but providing the daughter's dowry or seeing to a better education for the son.
The idea that American homeschooling (which embraces ex-Hippies as well as Christian fundamentalists) is equivalent to the Pakistani Madrassa is also highly misleading. Teaching in a Midwestern University, I had students who were homeschooled, and probably the chief difference between them and their peers from the public schools was that they spelled better and made fewer grammatical mistakes in the papers submitted. This is not to say that homeschools aren't producing their share of the future deadheads and asphalt-puddlers of America; but the homeschool movement is very diverse. Those parents in it who produce college material will probably be analogous to those who send their kids to traditional schools and produce college material; those who produce deadheads are analogous to those whose kids daydream in the back of the class. The difference between the two in the latter class will be which demoagogues are more likely to pull their strings--that's all.
Posted by: Kepha at June 15, 2005 2:20 AM
Hmm.. In Pakistan Madrassa's have an entirely difrnt role. The are key ingridient for Pakistan's unity. Pakistan stays united only on the basis of all consuming hatred towards "infidel" India. Pakistan is a ramshackle country made up of 2 Indian Provinces and 2 Afghan province. In Pakistan Punjabi's have subjugated other ppl. The day the Pathans realise Pakistan actually was created for the sake of Punjabi Moslems, then Pakistan as a nation'll cease to exist. Madrassa's take up the task of imparting anti-India propaganda thus ensuring that Pathan's keep their minds busy elsewhere. I feel sad when i see Pakistani's disown their own Indo-Aryan heritage and think of themselves as Arabs. Evrytime they destroy an ancient moument of Hinduism they dont realise they're insulting their own ancestors. When One Mosque was brought down in India world wasnt told about how thousnds of Hindu temples we desecrated in Pakistan,Bangladesh and even Britain! To them Palestinians and Bosnians are "brothers" whilst i'm an infidel. Pakistani culture is othing but Arab culture superimposed upon Indian culture. In Indian Madrassa to which i've been to, children as young as 9 we preparing posters for demonstration of solidarity with their Palestinian "brothers" but them seem to forget that their own Kashmiri Pandit compatriots have been forcibly evicted from a land in which they've dwelt for over 3000 yrs. My grandfather was kicked out frm Pakistan at gunpoint with nothing but a suitcase. He came to India in those notorious "trains of death" by feigning death. He rebuilt his life and came to Britain. Look i'm not complaining am I. Thats exactly Moslems must learn forgive and forget the past not the poison about how Israelis are giving Palestinians a hard time and that it's their duty to wage Jihad against their own country.
Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at June 15, 2005 5:48 AM
Attitude is everything. Madrassas create the attitude that fosters terrorism indeed. And they foster the attitude of Muslim superiority that gives Muslims the idea that it is right and proper to treat non-believers with contempt and disdain. That humiliating, subduing, enslaving and killing are proper ways to treat people simply because they don't hold the same belief system.
Madrassas may cobble together Pakistan, but they are creating monsters.
Posted by: epg at June 15, 2005 7:39 AM
Does the Islamic Saudi Academy, just a few miles from Washington, D.C., qualify as a madrassa?
Posted by: WatchfulEye at June 15, 2005 7:51 AM
Hugh: ""Terrorism" does not exist in a vacuum. It comes out of a world -- the world of Islam."
King responds: Herein lies the definition of myopic. In your zeal to hate Islam and blame it solely for things like terrorism, etc. you are selectively turning a blind eye to the millions of other things that can drive a fundamental/radical mind-set.
Let us peel the onion:
As I have stated many, many, many times, corrupt, radical governments need radical, corrupt clerics if they are to co-exist. Clerics control the people and the governments allow it. Enter the Madrassa.
Religion and government are the two most powerful influences to most humans and in a state that blends the two you have a perfect breeding ground for radicalism, extremism and fundamentalism and all of the ideations that go along with them. Islam itself is not to blame, rather, the twisted interpretations of the religion, mixed with politics, poverty, corruption, culture, custom, & disenfranchisement all work together to create a population that is volitile, radical and unable to accept 21st century norms.
So while you all sit here and pick apart one article after the other ad nauseum, you are completely missing the point and are certainly not helping the problem.
Our government has helped perpetuate many of the "radical" governments that allow extremism to thrive under their watch. We just want that oil and anyone who is willing to play ball is A-OK!
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 15, 2005 9:00 AM
epg:
You are so right (about the role madrassahs play in cultivating future jihaddists). And talk about people who can't see the forest for the trees! What was it that Hitler said about giving the children over to him for the first five years of their lives? Have these two fine members of the chattering classes never heard that?
Vikrant_C: thanks for the succinct summation of what Pakistan was and has become.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at June 15, 2005 9:03 AM
Didn't Hitler also say something to the effect:
"expel them and refuse the entrance of others."
Your position, WaterLilly, is no different than that of Hitler. You wish to expel people and or refuse their entrance into a nation based on their religion and country of origin.
Pot - Kettle - Black
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 15, 2005 9:49 AM
KT wrote...You wish to expel people and or refuse their entrance into a nation based on their religion and country of origin.
Sounds like a winner. I propose you be the first to be expelled.
at June 15, 2005 10:26 AM
KT wrote...Islam itself is not to blame, rather, the twisted interpretations of the religion, mixed with politics, poverty, corruption, culture, custom, & disenfranchisement all work together to create a population that is volitile, radical and unable to accept 21st century norms. ...
Uh huh. KT you get an A for trying, but your thesis is BS. You need to get over your denial. Islam is jihad, it's not some 'twisted interpretation.' There's 1300 years of evidence that Islam today is doing exactly what it did yesterday and will do tomorrow.
Posted by: reset at June 15, 2005 10:33 AM
Vicant wrote...Thats exactly [what] Moslems must learn - forgive and forget the past not the poison about how Israelis are giving Palestinians a hard time and that it's their duty to wage Jihad against their own country...
Well that 'forgive and forget' is a real problem. Islam dictates that whatever is conquered by Islam will forever be Islam. They still think that Spain is part of Islam. It's like a toe fungus, you can't get rid of it.
at June 15, 2005 10:41 AM
King Tut Tut-
If the people trying to emigrate to your sountry believed in a 'faith', let's say "The Aryan Church of the White God", and espoused the violent overthrow of the existing government, and the enslavement or slaughter of all who disagreed with their 'religion', wouldn't it be prudent to forbid them entry, and to deport all who were already members of this 'faith' within your borders?
What a country does to safeguard itself depends on its vision of its society.
Saudi Arabia has one concept of the state: No faith but Islam allowed.
Countries in the West need another idea: No 'religious beliefs' that threaten to destroy the foundations of a free state.
The Constitution is still not a suicide pact.
Posted by: BigSleep at June 15, 2005 10:42 AM
They may have learned how to operate a gun or build a bomb from someone else, but the mind was already created.
Posted by: alaskan1000 at June 14, 2005 07:13 PM
Alaskan1000,
You got that right!
Even though people may not ACT on what they have been taught as children right away, but rather years later, the "mindset"--the attitudes and viewpoints that form the individual's psychoepistemology, have become very rigidified during puberty. That is when the origins of things that we are taught in childhood are forgotten, and now they run on "automatic," rarely to be questioned again. An astounding amount of this work occurs before the age of five (try to remember details about things you learned then; we can usually recall only bits and pieces, and these bits and pieces grow more fragmented and fuzzy the further back we go, despite the fact that memory is is excellent operating order--but that's a story for another day).
It's no accident that the Jesuits said, "Give us your child until he is six, and he will be ours for life." That's a bit of an exaggeration, but there is a lot of truth in it, ESPECIALLY if what has been taught consistently through those early years is followed up by the same sort of material.
Such is the case in madrassas and schools in "Palestine," Saudi Arabia, etc. You wouldn't believe the crap in their textbooks!
In some instances, they can change, but it is rare enough that it is usually not worth the effort.
With all due respect, I think Spencer's comments on this one are a bit off. For instance, the article said nothing about madrassas being better or worse than homeschoolers, so that comment was a bit off.
Also, if a study of 75 terrorists shows that most of them were educated in the West and hardly any were educated in madrassas...
Posted by: scissor at June 14, 2005 07:37 PM
Scissor,
Actually, Hugh is not "off." It isn't where the child goes to school, it is the nature of the curriculum and, very importantly, when it is taught.
The fact that some of these terrorists had their university-level educations in the West will have little to no influence on their attitudes and thinking; the damage has been done.
It's unfortunate, but it's just a neurodevelopmental fact of life.
Posted by: Cubed at June 15, 2005 11:30 AM
One more thing about the home schooling quote here. While Bergen doesn't equate home schooling with the madrassas, why reach for that to use as an equivalent in terms of percentages? Why not just give us the percentages instead?
In some quarters "home schooling" is equated with Christian Evangelicals, though it is much more diverse than that. I think it was a subtle way to throw some moral equivalence between Islam and Christian fundamentalism into his piece, while retaining plausable deniability.
Best to all,
Rebecca
at June 15, 2005 11:49 AM
Reset wagged: "You need to get over your denial."
King responds: And you need to get over your paranoia.
Reset lectured: "There's 1300 years of evidence that Islam today is doing exactly what it did yesterday and will do tomorrow."
King replies: I guess you are choosing to ignore the millons of people slaughtered in the name of Christianity, too. I guess you are also choosing to ignore the fact that we have many millions of Muslims today that ae living peaceful lives while they practice their religion and ignore radical clerics for the nuts they are.
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 15, 2005 11:55 AM
BigSnore: "If the people trying to emigrate to your sountry believed in a 'faith', let's say "The Aryan Church of the White God", and espoused the violent overthrow of the existing government......"
King responds: I find the constant comparison of Islam to Whute Supremacists and or the KKK amusing. This comparison is baseless. The KKK/White Aryan pigs do not speak for Christianity anymore than radical Islamists speak for Islam. Did the KKK's buring of the cross signify that all Christians supported their cause? I think not.
You are clinging to a paranoid, xenophobic premise. I guess your next worries will be that the Mexicans are inflirating the US to steal all of our jobs, and the African immigrants are coming to the US so that the Black population can be increased. This is how silly you sound to me.
Fact is, 9/11 was an isolated incident perpetrated by criminals who speak nothing for Islam.
Here's one for ya: Besides 9/11, what was the worst terroristic act to occur on US soil?
Oklahoma City Bombing. American hicks with a radical, anti- U.S. government agenda.
Once again, you are ignoring, perhaps purposely, the other reasons why radicalism has a high profile in Islam, and you are accepting this high profile sect as speaking for an entire faith. The things you say are really tantamount to what Hitler argued in the 1920's and 1930's. You are no different.
Posted by: KingTolerance
at June 15, 2005 12:04 PM
and KT whines ...King responds: And you need to get over your paranoia..
No paranoia, just conclusion based on facts. If you think I am paranoid, then you think everyone who posts here is paranoid, except you. I think everyone here sees you as a dimwitted dhimmi in denial. Beats me why you want to hang out here. Everybody thinks you're a loser. Oh I forgot, that's what losers do - whine and deny. Pathetic.
Posted by: reset at June 15, 2005 12:19 PM
KingT:
I never wrote anything about expelling anyone from anywhere. I merely repeated Hitler's observation that indoctrination starts at an early age.
Are you given to hallucinations as well as delusions of royal grandeur?
Posted by: waterdragon52 at June 15, 2005 12:29 PM
scissor: some of your reasoning is more than a little off. Literacy levels are indeed low in various Muslim countries, particularly in the hinterlands, but Muslims don't necessarily read the Koran so much as they memorize what is taught to them. And I suspect madrassahs are probably adjuncts to mosques, in a relationship similar to churches and "Sunday schools" rather than freestanding schools.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at June 15, 2005 12:34 PM
Popinjay!
How is the weather in your part of England today?
Now that you have bent over and warbled the Hitler comparisons out of your loose Islamist-Bigot anus, kindly pay a visit to any of your co-religionist's websites and get a whiff of who really wants to liquidise Jewry in a Mein Kampf stylee.
The twists and turns that Islamist bigots adovocate's take to hide their nasty nasty colours are a case study requiring some psychological examination. I do not have the training, but i do have the rhetorical gifts to uncover the Prancing Islamo-Bigot Popinjay that you are, and expose your painful attempt to equivaocate over the rotten stench of Jew-Hating-Jihadi Establishment and the aberrations from liberal tolerant democratic societies and systems of governance.
So here you go, Islamic Fundamentalist Nazi Hitler Bigot Intolerant Fraud etc etc etc
(throw in some LoL's)
They all apply to you. Jumble the words up and apply them to yourself in a post-modern word game befitting the Prancing Pompous Islamist Popinjay that you are ;-)
Posted by: Zico at June 15, 2005 12:35 PM
Don't feed the troll. He is a master ofTaqiyya and kitman.
Christianity, in the name of Christianity, did slaughter 500 hundred years ago. Today's Christians may slaughter but aren't doing it to further the goals and aims of Christianity nor in the name of Christ for the sake of Heaven. There is no comparison of Christianity and Islam on this point, for Islam continues to slaughter in the name of Allah, to protect "religion" and Muslims, and to further the aims and goals of Islam, the main one of which is Islamic triumphalism with the attendant contempt and disdain for non-Muslims as they are subdued and humiliated.
No Christian sect attempts or advocates violent proselytism or take over of lands and peoples of any group.
Posted by: epg at June 15, 2005 1:28 PM
King Tolerance...you are a muslim Crusader as I outlined on JW...The goal of all muslim Crusaders is the same. To neutralize the enemy and accelerate the cause of Allah/Islam forward.
The ultimate goal, as stated by numerous, clerics of various ranks, is world wide expantion of Islam. This would of necessity mean Islamic gov.
Let's see if you can understand this: All governments, anywhere, anytime, are the enemies of humanity. If you dont believe that, just count the dead body's.
Governments have their uses, but like a vicious guard dog, they need to be controlled by their ownwer/masters.
During the early Korean war the front line sentrys used Doberan Pincers for patrol. The Dobies proved to be too sensitive for that work and frequently attacked their masters. The sentrys would run the leash thru alluminum tubing to keep the dog off them. After a while the Army changed to German Sheppards because they had less problems.
In the US the Constitution is supposed to be the
alluminum tubing, but it is getting weak.
In Islam, there is no such thing as alluminum tubing. Thats why you guys attack each other.
Islamic govs would be no better, and far worse, than the govs history has provided us with so far.
As far as I can see, the American gov, and the west in general, is far in advance of others, especially Islamic, and it will stay that way in spite of the fact that there are people, like the vicious guard dogs and muslim Crusaders, that want to destroy it...
Posted by: duh_swami
at June 15, 2005 1:43 PM
Rest: "No paranoia, just conclusion based on facts."
King: Wrong! You are basing your "conclusion" on only a few facts. You selectively ignore the other facts that are working to instigate a radical, high profile brand of Islam.
WaterLilly: "I never wrote anything about expelling anyone from anywhere. I merely repeated Hitler's observation that indoctrination starts at an early age."
King responds: And I was merely making a parallel between the things you say and just how similar they sound to the rhetoric Hitler spewed. You just don't see the irony, do you?
EPG: "Christianity, in the name of Christianity, did slaughter 500 hundred years ago."
King: So this, then, makes Chritianity squeaky clean? South and Central America's indigenous populations were almost wiped out due to the violent spread of Christianity as well as European language and values. Spaniards and Portugese were the culprits, in large part. Equally, it was Christian Europeans who settled the United States and acted equally as violently against Native Americans. Notice that neither scenarios cited above involved Muslims, Arabs or Islam.
"Duh" Swami: "King Tolerance...you are a muslim Crusader as I outlined on JW."
King: Whatever.
Zilcho: "So here you go, Islamic Fundamentalist Nazi Hitler Bigot Intolerant Fraud etc etc etc"
King: Borderline psychotic. I really wonder if you actually read the definion of "popinjay?" Here's another one for you to look up: ad hominem.
Posted by: KingTolerance
at June 15, 2005 2:19 PM
Popinjay!
So you agree with everything I said about you? How magnanimous, there is hope for your demented sappy self after all.
;-)
Dont forget, the first person to bring Hitler and Nazism into the equation loses the argument. That was your foolish pompous Islamist Troll self. Therefore, you lose.
Try and control yourself, take some deep breaths, lay down your Hitler fixation, you are spending too much time on Jihadi sites and Memri.
at June 15, 2005 2:35 PM
Zilcho: "So you agree with everything I said about you?"
King: Agree, disagree. It matters not since your psychosis oozes from your posts. Did you do the assignments I gave you?
Zilcho: "Dont forget, the first person to bring Hitler and Nazism into the equation loses the argument."
King: Oh, were you and I having an argument? I'm sorry, I thought you were throwing the same, tired colloquialisms at me and I was sending you off to investigate your own vocabulary.
Nevertheless, your wholesale view of Islam being evil is exactly how Hitler portrayed the Jews. Of course you would not like to hear that, would you?
Zilcho: "lay down your Hitler fixation,"
King: Hmmm, for someone who loiters in an anti-Islamic website and throws around poorly understood Arabic terminology and sports that as expertise, you have a lot of nerve to use the word 'fixation.' Your boner for Islam is almost as bad as Imam Geoff's!
Now go look up your vocabulary homeowork and get back to me.
King, Laughing out Loud.....
Posted by: KingTolerance at June 15, 2005 2:58 PM
It's alright King, it's alright!
I understand. Because we are all brothers of some 'Abrahamic' what....? You never came back to me on that one buddy! You let me down...
From the above posting I see that your coffee-filter is (still) impenetrable!
The screws hurt and affect the brain in bad way.
I told you, try to use UHU! It doesn't hurt a bit and it makes the pain go away.
(Just trying to help!)
at June 15, 2005 4:41 PM
Popinajay
Yes, all of it is true, you are a nasty little Hitler fixated frothing-at-the-mouth Islamo bigot taqiyyah-wielding Troll. Thanks for your latest amusing anal warblings! Highly amusing! The intellectual decrepitude and oleaginous prancing of the popinjay generates more shoe beating and spanking.
Now, go and take a shower and calm down, buffoonish Jihadi! Mendacious taqiyyah hallucinating nincompoop! You are more transparent than glass. Bring on the next note of Popinjay flatulence for our laughter and amusement! ;-)
Posted by: Zico
at June 15, 2005 5:37 PM
Desperate attempt to get this thread back on topic...
"While madrassas may breed fundamentalists who have learned to recite the Koran in Arabic by rote, such schools do not teach the technical or linguistic skills necessary to be an effective terrorist. Indeed, there is little or no evidence that madrassas produce terrorists capable of attacking the West."
OK, so madrassas might give people the motivation to become terrorists, but not the skills. Good thing there's no trained terrorists looking to recruit these zealots, or training camps where they could learn to attack the West.
"And as a matter of national security, the United States doesn't need to worry about Muslim fundamentalists with whom we may disagree, but about terrorists who want to attack us."
This is a rather selfish and isolationist sentiment, not what I'd expect from the NYT. There's no problem because they aren't "capable" of attacking us, they might throw some acid over some local Hindus or blow up a mosque of a rival sect, but that's no problem for us.
Surely the bottom line on madrassas is this: do they or do they not teach an ideology that supports terrorism? The NYT should do some serious investigation of what percentage of madrassas teach support for terrorism. Those that do should be considered a threat, regardless of whether their graduates are attacking the West, Iraqis, Pakistanis, or whoever.
Posted by: Viking5 at June 15, 2005 6:59 PM
'As I have stated many, many, many times, corrupt, radical governments need radical, corrupt clerics if they are to co-exist. Clerics control the people and the governments allow it. '~ kt
...and so far we haven't found ONE single islamic government on the face of the Earth that isn't corrupt and radicalized. As MEMRI shows quite often, among other examples. Point one out to us, please.
And I notice you keep dredging up things that Christianity did Centuries ago.
Are you claming we can't raise One Single Complaint, because some Christians who have been dead for centuries did the same thing?
Posted by: Gary at June 15, 2005 8:17 PM
I have a question about all these Islamic terrorists.
Why do they all seem to be engineering students?
This is not to crack on engineering students, and I apologize if I offend any here present. But in my experience, engineers are not the most socially gifted people. They don't get the hottest girls or wear the coolest clothes.
So I don't know for a fact, but I wouldn't be surprised if all or nearly all of the 9/11 attackers died virgins, or if they weren't, lost their virginity to prostitutes or somesuch. I seem to remember something about Muhammad Atta wearing clothes like brown highwaters and yellow, short-sleeved shirts.
Is it me, or are terrorists mostly social losers? The dorks of the Muslim world?
Posted by: scissor at June 15, 2005 8:56 PM
King Tut Tut-
You need a job in a movie theater, you've gotten the part of "projector" down pat.
You project onto a simple analogy all kinds of anti-Islamic sentiments.
I could have as easily said "The Cargo Cultists' Church of Marriage Only-for-Children" or "The Temple of the French-Kissing Penguin-Lovers Against Oriental Gays", and tried to draw a really long-drawn-out analogy completely far-from-reality.
But, we know there are neo-Nazi nutjobs out there who want genocide in the cause their 'aryan' white's-only (all else need not apply, just die!) 'faith'.
I didn't mean for this made-up murderous and utterly intolerant 'religion' to be a match for Islam. Just that one could draw any conclusions one wanted if a similarly hysterical, homicidal and imperialistic creed popped up.
The extreme branch of jihadist Islam is just about there.
If their 'moderate' Muslim co-religionists don't rein them in, they'll be swept into the maelstrom with the radicals once a WMD hits in the West.
Time to stop wasting your time here merely insulting people who are trying to warn your fellow faithful to control the lunatics, or you may be scorched in the reprisals against them.
Collateral damage hurts just as much as if it were intended.
Islam is like a car being driven along a dangerous cliffside pass with a drunk suddenly throwing himself onto the driver and grabbing the wheel.
Either get the steering back in rational hands or a lot of people are going into the abyss.
P.S.-
9/11 has had follow-ups (Bali, Spain, etc.), but I don't suppose they impressed you.
The next surely will.
But I'm sure you're already writing out the apologia for the blame that the West deserves for inciting it, already.
Posted by: BigSleep at June 15, 2005 9:41 PM
scissor:
I don't think it's because it's the revenge of the Islamic nerds that so many seem to be engineers, but rather a practical matter.
Engineering types would be more likely to have the technical background to build and detonate bombs to the greatest effect or feel competent to master flying skills and hijack pans than a med, law or accounting student might.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at June 16, 2005 9:16 AM
Duh" Swami: "King Tolerance...you are a muslim Crusader as I outlined on JW."
King: Whatever.
A confession...a one worder... missing the usual flatulations, but good enough. It proves that debating you is useless, but diagnosing you shows promise. You just dont seem to have much defense for an accurate diagnosis.
Allah should have provided you with some body armor...at least a bicycle cup...
Posted by: duh_swami at June 16, 2005 2:42 PM
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