George Carey is a good and gracious man. I fear the Anglican Church is losing it's way!

God Bless Israel!

Posted by: Sencit at June 25, 2005 11:12 AM

A random thought: If terrorism is a reaction to Israeli oppression then why are there no Christian suicide bombers? Don't Palestinian Christians live under the same harsh conditions as the Palestinian Muslims?

Posted by: Viking5 at June 25, 2005 12:35 PM

The Anglican Church is about to promote it's own brand of Jihad against Israel. Evidently, not enough Jews died in the Shoah to satisfy the blood lust of the Anglican Church . This is nothing but naked Jew-hatred.

Posted by: MJ at June 25, 2005 4:01 PM

The move, presented as a message of solidarity with Palestinian Christians, immediately came under attack by Jewish groups, with some calling it ill timed and predicting a likely chill in Anglican-Jewish relations....

Before the vote, the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, Riah Hanna Abu El-Assal, who helped lead the effort, talked about the occupation's effect on Palestinian Christians. He urged council members to support the resolution, saying it would send a strong message of disapproval to Israel.

The Arab/Middle Eastern Christian truly presents a sad spectacle. Tortured and oppressed so long by the Muslim invaders, he eventually comes to identify with them and begins advancing their agenda even though it is this same jihadi agenda that is responsible for all his miseries. If the Anglicans had any sense they would treat these Palestinian Christian churches the same way the Vatican treats the official "patriotic" Chinese Catholoic church- i.e. as captive institutions not representing the church's true interests.

Posted by: emperor_diocletian at June 25, 2005 4:39 PM

I saw this thread earlier today during a visit to my in-laws who live in a small town in East Anglia. I was in the public library and could read JW/DW but not log in to post. But more later.

I had been praying that this would not be the result of the vote. I agree (yet again!) with Dr Carey who is much admired in my family. This is the wrong decision and I continue to pray that the individual churches and organisations will not follow their advice. Thankfully the church is greater than its officials, as the children’s song goes, We are the Church, the Church is the people. So I think MJ is a little pessimistic when he accuses us Anglicans of blood lust and Jew hatred. I could take offence at that but I won’t.

I was reading this week's Church Times during my visit. It was published too late for Friday's vote but there may be news, and more importantly comment next week. This week featured interviews with Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks and the new Archbishop of York, the Ugandan born Dr John Sentamu. Meanwhile I copied and brought home some items from the column
"Views from around the UK"
They are quite interesting and show that clergy at Parish level still know how many beans make 5 .

We enjoy living alongside our Hindu neighbours who have brought colour and beauty.
Leicester.

The Vicar was refused permission to take assembly at the community school because he was told that Muslims are trying to proselytise and would not be able to be excluded if the Vicar was allowed to take assemblies.
Bradford.

For about a year, the Vicar living next door allowed two Muslim families to park their car in his driveway before going to mosque. Now a month ago the two families were baptised and confirmed.
Southwark .

We see a regular flow of conversions from Muslim to Christian amongst refugees from Muslim countries. As a priest, I do get spat at by Muslims on the street occasionally.
London.

Back to the OT complaint about the public library I recall that Vikrant Camberleykar was having some difficulty in his local branch. Despite blocking my typekey log in, it allowed me a selction of poker popups. The librarian said that the net nanny used was perverse and illogical.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 25, 2005 5:09 PM

There are all sorts of fulltime agents, most of them simply classic antisemites, among the Christian clergy who have crawled their way to the top of various bureacracies. In the Presbyterian Church, where Naim Ateek routinely offers his denunication (eyes heavenward, properly tormented facial expression), and is aided and abetted by a "Palestinian" minister who held a post at the national level a few years ago, we see the results.

The Arab who happens to be an Anglican Bishop in Israel -- his name escapes me -- has attempted, apparently successfully, to convince the sheep, no not sheep -- the antisemitic wolves in sheep's clothing -- that the reason the Christian population in "Palestine" has gone down so precipitously is not because the Christians are all fleeing Islam -- which is of course the explanation -- but because of Israeli "occupation."

And this nonsense, classic dhimmitude, classic islamochristian doing the work of the Muslim masters whom he both fears, and with whom he identifies because some Arab Christians (but not all, not by any means), especially in the hierarchy among the so-called "Palestinians," promote the Muslm agenda. Think of gun-running HIlarion Cappucci, or unpleasant in all respects Hanan Ashrawi, or a dozen others.

And when some fulltime anti-Israel church activist -- such as a certain Rev. Stephen Sizer of Virginia Water (quite a place, Virginia Water), or the sinister Reverend Donald Wagner a man consumed with hatred of Israel, it would appear -- work their way into the councils of the various church bureaucracies and both peddle the most transparent "Palestinian" and Muslim propaganda and identify with the Jihadists making war on Infidel Israel, we have to consider them as security risks, as antisemites were considered during and just before World War II. So let's take the names of those Anglican clergymen, and see what else -- what about Islam, for example -- they will try to promote among their diminishing, and melancholy, and unwary flocks.

Posted by: Hugh at June 25, 2005 9:42 PM

Its a pity they don't read their Bible:

'I will bless those that bless you, and curse those who curse who'

Curse = utterly turn my back on in the Hebrew.

Then again, this is the same "leadership" that says homosexuality is OK by the Bible also.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at June 25, 2005 11:05 PM

These cowards shall reap what they sew.

Posted by: Infidel33 at June 26, 2005 12:44 AM

"diminishing, and melancholy, and unwary flocks."

Diminishing? No, very much on the increase - not just in my own parish, or other parishes in the UK, but in Africa and Brazil where new Anglican dioceses are formed annually.

Melancholy? No. Do I sound melancholy?

Unwary? Yes, which is why I and others research here. And why the Church Times reports (above) on the priest who receives Muslim converts and is spat on by remaining Muslims. And which is also why I believe that the appointment of Archbishop John to York will be a very good thing. The African Bishops have seen evil closer to.

The same thing applies to the comment Then again, this is the same "leadership" that says homosexuality is OK by the Bible also.

Don't believe only that which gets reported by the BBC and the Guardian. That is not neccessarily what is preached in church, or discussed in the Parish Council, or debated in the Anglican press. Also remember that the Anglican Communion is much, much, bigger than the stereotype of middle England. What I have never seen mentioned in the MSM is the Anglican churches in France, who believe that the only thing stopping more French people attending is the name "Anglican". However that does not put the Russian Anglicans off.

Hugh and 3rdtimelucky we usually agree on most things, but this touches on one of those things I am closest to.

I didn't pick up your reply Hugh on a thread in the week when Interested and I commented about your US spelling. From your writing and some of our exchanges I believed that you were British, so my apologies for teasing you.

So I'm off to worship in an hour, and I have a lot to pray about.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 26, 2005 4:11 AM

Yes, I do believe that there are Anglican clergy in Israel (and elsewhere) that strongly support the PA and routinely blame everything wrong there on Israel. My husband is an Episcopalian priest and a strong supporter of Israel and of Palestinian Christians. Unfortunately, he is in the minority in his beliefs. The Palestinian Muslims have been and continue to be very successful victims. I have also observed that very few Christian Palestinians have spoken out against the PA and the swallowing of a Christian presence in Palestinian-controlled territory. The Christian community in Bethlehem and throughout Israel should have reacted much stronger and very vocally to that criminal take-over by the Muslims thugs a few years ago. And, they should have loudly asked for Christian solidarity throughout the rest of the world. The whole world was watching that sad event and that would have been a perfect time to ask for support. It would have also been a good opportunity to tell the real story of what is going on with the PA. I have found that ex-pat Christian Palestinians also will not speak out for those left behind. Some may, but I have not found one that will.

Posted by: maryrose at June 26, 2005 9:22 AM

"From your writing and some of our exchanges I believed that you were British..."
--- from a posting above

But perhaps I am British. Couldn't I be both a "wild colonial boy" and a "Yankee Doodle Dandy" and also be British or part-British too, even perhaps a poor though deserving relation of either the Earl of Kildare, or the Earl of Desmond (choose the Protestant or the Catholic, but not both). I may be as British as bangers and mash, spotted dick, and patum peperium. As British as Jack Buchanan and Al Bowlly (oops -- I forgot -- he was born in Lourenco Marques, just like John Kerry's wife) and Leslie Howard (oops -- he was Hungarian) or Harry Lauder. I may paint my face with woad, and dream of cantering on the White Horse of Uffington. I may have gazumped some surprised sheikh to obtain a half-timbered Tudor house and messuage in Lipsbury Pinfold, or stumbled upon a badger sett behind the more modest dwelling I possibly may once have inhabited in Cambridge, on Porson Road, after the botanical gardents but not quite as far as Grantchester, with the Old Vicarage, and The Orchard, just a pleasant punt from Scudamore's, or an amble, or a ramble, or a scramble down the road and across the bridge.

Anything is possible.

Posted by: Hugh at June 26, 2005 8:58 PM

Anything is possible

Dear Hugh

Keep on writing like that, and all your other posts, and everything will be possible. Indeed, probable. Ultimately, inevitable.
The pen is mightier than the sword.
And at a pinch can be used to take someone's eye out.

My Mum liked Al Bowlly. She saw him once in London before he died in 1941 but I don't know where, probably one of the music halls during his variety years. There was always some confusion about his birth apparently, although more the year than the place. He was said to have knocked quite a few years off.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 27, 2005 4:14 AM

"before he [Al Bowlly] died in 1941 but I don't know where.."
--- from a posting above

The clause -- "but I don't know where" -- has a certain ambiguity promptlly cleared up by the phrase that follows, but I will take it to mean "where he died" and let you know that he died on Jermyn Street. I used to think it had occurred as he went out for a walk, and I imagined him as a dandiacal coxcomb, walking out to buy bespoke at Turnbull & Asser, or to the Gentleman's Hairdresser, Mr. George Trumper. But I recently learned that he had been in bed, asleep, when a bomb hit his building.

If you have not seen the early Dennis Potter television play that stars a touchiing Al Bowlly Appreciation Society -- with plenty of music -- you might enjoy it.

Born Lourenco Marques, died London. He wouldn't have been able to warble in a Muslim society, or to have been produced by such a society.

One more reason.

Posted by: Hugh at June 27, 2005 7:34 AM

Hugh
My Mum was the fan, not me. Dad did start to watch Pennies from Heaven (I assume that's the Potter you mean) because of all the old songs, but found the interludes less to his taste.
I think the building where he died was the Cafe de Paris in Piccadilly, or so Mum said. It's still there but much changed. What I was wondering is where Mum saw him perform herself in the first years of the war.

How did we get on to this? Last time it was Beowolf!

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 27, 2005 8:16 AM

"Dad did start to watch Pennies from Heaven (I assume that's the Potter you mean) because of all the old songs, but found the interludes less to his taste."
-- from a posting above

No, there were some songs sung by Al Bowlly in Pennies From Heaven (the Bob Hoskins-Cheryl Campbell version, NOT to be confused with the later Steve Martin-Bernadette Peters Hollywood movie, which for some prevented knowing about, or seeing, or appreciating fully, the early masterpiece) but I am referring to another, shorter Potter piece. Along the lines of those others with the immortal titles -- Cream in My Coffee, Blue Remembered Hills (with that sinister children's taunt of Helen Mirren et al: "Donald Duck, Donald Duck"), Where the Buffalo Roam, and of course Oedipus-Schmoedipus. He had the best titles in television or possibly screen history.

Was it, possibly, "Midnight on the Highway"? I can't remember.

About "Pennies From Heaven" -- that really should be shown again, whatever contractual promise was made to Hollywood when the rights were bought for the movie version. Or at least, there should be a DVD anthology made of all the numbers in "Pennies From Heaven," "The Singing Detective," and "Lipstick on Your Collar."

Cheryl Campbell, sitting on the desk and swinging her legs, as she starts to sing, and to dance to, "Love Is Good for Anything That Ails You." And the children stand up, and start tooting on little horns, and begin to sway up and down the classroom.

One more reason.

Posted by: Hugh at June 27, 2005 8:37 AM

Hugh, I didn't expect to have memories of those songs revived this morning.
Thank you.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 27, 2005 8:42 AM

A full-service website. We Aim To Please.

Posted by: Hugh at June 27, 2005 9:00 AM

As this particular thread is about to be booted to the back, where few seldom penetrate (though there are hours of happy reading to be discovered), I will offer what I think is the definitive account of Al Bowlly's death:

So Bowlly returned to his flat in Dukes Court in the West End at a time when London was being bombed nightly. Al decided not to bother to go to the safety of an air raid shelter. Al’s bravado stemmed from a strange experience he had had. In one of the first daylight raids he happened to be walking in London’s Brewer Street when a bomb fell right in the middle of the street. When it exploded, the force of the blast seemed to go in one direction – away from Al – and he was unharmed. And from then on, he really thought he had a charmed life, which is why he often ignored the air raid warnings.

"On this particular night, Al’s partner, Helen, went down to the shelter and left Al alone in bed with a cowboy book. It was now the early hours of Thursday morning, 17th April, and the air raid continued. Al was still in bed when a land mine came silently down and exploded in Jermyn Street. Al’s flat on the second floor overlooked Jermyn Street. As soon as the "all clear" was sounded the hall porter hurried round to make sure all his tenants were safe. But on entering Al's room he found him dead on the floor by the side of the bed, evidently killed outright by the blast from the landmine.

"Photographs taken the following morning reveal the devastation caused to the neighbourhood. Extracts of official reports show there were two explosions at 2.20am and 3.10am. The reports indicate that the bomb which killed Al was a parachute mine which fell in the roadway opposite No. 77 Jermyn Street. The Parachute was seen coming down by an Army Officer who was wounded. He was one of 23 casualties including seven dead."

Bowlly, in bed with a "cowboy book" when a German bomb fell on Jermyn Street.

Posted by: Hugh at June 27, 2005 9:13 AM

"early hours of Thursday morning, 17th April"

which by co-incidence was Mums birthday. I didn't know that until now.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 27, 2005 10:09 AM

Far be it from me to correct the great Hugh, but it was Lawrence Harvey who was Hungarian-turned-to-Brit, not Leslie Howard.

Posted by: Suzan at June 28, 2005 5:02 PM