Mr.Spencer, you missed a subtle bit of moral-equivalence poison that underlie this rather dhimmi article. The author underlined that in this particular church - obviously some sort of Protestant one - the female ministry is allowed, and suggested that this the "liberty" that the converts craved. Why? Because this places Shi'a Iran in the same non-PC area as the two largest Christian denominations, the Catholics and the Orthodox, who both refuse female ordination. In other words, it's the same old old story: conservative Christians are natural allies for murderous Muslims, both are set on oppressing wimmin... I dare say we shall hear from Giaour, KJ and new star Loxias on this matter...

Posted by: Paolo at June 27, 2005 4:46 PM

Paolo suggests certain of use believe conservative Christians are natural allies for murderous Muslims.

Don't be silly. And the Eastern Orthodox have ordained women as deacons since time immemorial.

The Catholics have tended to be awfully cozy with the Muslims, though, but then, this has more to do with protecting their Christian flock in Muslim lands, as well as their shrines in the Holy Land.

Posted by: Loxias at June 27, 2005 4:59 PM

From further into the report "The building has a sophisticated television studio that broadcasts Christian programming via satellite to Iran.
Starting in September, the channel will broadcast 24-hours day and will include programming aimed at empowering women."

This I like.

Paolo
I have found an Iranian Christian website although not specifically the one for this new church. Iranian Christians seem to be from the evangelical wing of the wider church. Their inspiration is Jeremiah 49:39 "... In the last days ... I shall restore the fortunes of Elam (Iran), declares the Lord."

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 27, 2005 5:08 PM

I hope this church has good security. Because when the jihad starts in the states, or when the Iranian nuke infrastructure gets destroyed, this church will be one of the first targets of the jihadists. I say this because of the way a criminal/evil mind works. Just like in a prison when a riot erupts, pedophiles and rapits are often sought out and "prison justice" is administered as these types are at the bottom of the totem pole in the inmate heirarchy. Apostates are the equivalent of pedophiles in Islam. They are and always will be the number one target when all hell breaks loose. Of couse I could be wrong. The jihadists might start attacking this church before then.

Posted by: William The Crusader at June 27, 2005 5:10 PM

I should have posted the link.
http://www.farsinet.com/ici/who.html

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at June 27, 2005 5:23 PM

Not sure if Catholics priests are the only ones sucking up to the Imams:

While in Europe, I watched quite a few TV programs where preachers regularly get together with the local Imams for the 'inter-faith-dialogue'-

Their churches are empty, they grave the power of the mullahs and this curiosity and cuddliness is, -in my humble opinion nothing more than plain envy.

If these idiots would take the time to study the Koran, hadith and sira and learn to speak from knowledge rather than sucking off the lying Imams we might get somewhere in the 'war on terror'...

But so far it seems they are easily swayed by coffee and cake and smalltalk rather than discussing the issues. I wouldn't be surprised to see quite a few converts to this exotic new faith, which appears to have such an ever increasing devoted following, something that Catholics and Protestants lost quite some time ago.

Posted by: Terminator at June 27, 2005 6:12 PM

I think that these muslim converts are still in danger.

When the number of muslims start to grow in the US, then these people should start hiring bodyguards.

Posted by: Voltaire at June 27, 2005 6:37 PM

Well I think it'll be better of Iranians convert to Zoroastrianism becoz they can better relate to it. And it'll be more easy to convince them to convert since it's their ancestral religion...

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at June 27, 2005 6:42 PM

William the C.,

If "an apostate is is like a pedophile in Islam", -then what is a pedophile, in Islam, like?

Their holiest prophet.

"By their fruits shall ye know them."

Posted by: BigSleep at June 27, 2005 7:13 PM

As far as I am aware, they are converting to Zoroastrianism/Good Religion in droves. This Christianity boom is in the USA only. In Iran and Afganistan, it is 1) Zoroastrianism, 2) Baha'i, 3) Atheism, 4) Judaism. I got this info from an email in the yahoo group "universalreligion". It was about a month ago. It showed numbers from 1970 and 2000. In Afg. in 1970, both were at 0, but in 2000 they were at about 70,000-100,000.

Posted by: Ibn Rushd at June 27, 2005 9:26 PM

Correction: both in the post ^ indicates Z. and B.

Posted by: Ibn Rushd at June 27, 2005 9:27 PM

Paolo

Re our conversation the other day – you say I ‘insulted’ you by saying the Pope was a Koran kisser (actually it was Mel Gibson’s father who said it – Mel a good Catholic and all, who hasn’t lost his ability to think critically)

So here is a picture I have for you:

http://www.garykah.org/popekoran.htm

I find that a ‘leader’ of a Church would do such a thing to a book that has led to the murder of millions, not only Catholics, but other Christians as well.

You may despise Lutherans, and Protestants, but I bet Calvin never did that to the Koran.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at June 28, 2005 3:22 AM

I am getting fed up with this site. Is there anyone among the posters who is capable of some honesty? 3rdtimelucky, I did not say that you insulted me, I said that, by insulting the Pope, you did not show any religious openness and did nothing for our better relations. The Koran-kissing episode has been trashed to death in a squillion places in this site, and I am certainly aware of it, but I am afraid you did not mention it at all - you merely said something about the Pope being some sort of villain. I could discuss it with someone who showed any openness and any honesty on the matter, but not with you. Now take your damned sectarian Irish fifth-generation passions home with you, I am not interested in them.

Posted by: Paolo at June 28, 2005 3:29 AM

Actually Paolo I did say the Pope did some good - I admire the Catholic church for their stand on Homosexuality.

But Paolo, you do bag the Protestants constantly, stating your 'facts'.

But when others show you the wrongs of the Catholics you get all 'cut' and angry. And it is a FACT that the Pope/Catholics have regular 'ecumenical' meetings with Muslims. It happens here in Australia all the time (and yes Protestant Churches also take part)

If you can't take it, then don't give it.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at June 28, 2005 3:39 AM

PS: I'm not Irish! I'm a mongrel from the British Isles

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at June 28, 2005 3:43 AM

“you did not show any religious openness “

I’m not interested in “religious openness” – especially in the Catholic ecumenical sense. I’m just interested in truth, and I don’t need a Pope for that – just the Bible.

Paolo – show me in the Bible where it says we need a “Pope”. Being a Hebrew book – I won’t hold my breath!

You carry on about Protestants being “like” Islam.

From what I see its Catholicism that more like Islam.

You have a Pope and Bishops to “interpret” Gods word. They have a Mufti.

Catholics idolize Mary, mother of Christ; Muslims do the same with Fatima.

History shows that the Catholics resisted the Bible being translated into every day language. Muslims insist on the Arabic for the Koran (it helps to control the people if they can’t read the book for themselves, most Muslims don’t even know what the Koran says)

Luther wanted the Bible in German for his country men to read for themselves, as did other reformists in other countries.

So Paolo – it goes both ways. Get over it.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at June 28, 2005 3:50 AM

Paolo – I apologize if I got you wrong re the “insulting” bit. I apologize. But I still believe you take every opportunity possible to bag the Protestants, probably like I do with Humanists.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at June 28, 2005 3:51 AM

"you merely said something about the Pope being some sort of villain"

Like what exactly? Refresh my memory.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at June 28, 2005 3:56 AM

3rdtimeluck

Paolo is a Papist propagandnist. Dont try to convince him about his narrow minded view of other religions. His comments on philosophies like Hindutva seem both ignorant and in bad taste. Paolo I repeat this once again... Hindutva is NOT against Christians. What peeves Catholic Chruch is that they reconvert Christians back to Hinduism. Paolo once said: "I'll do everything legitimate to promote it (Catholicism)" that comment is offenive to people like me. Catholic efforts to convert Hindus are coercive and corrupt. Moreover 60% of converts reconvert to Hinduism after getting their pay from missionaries. Paolo i ask once again. If i have faith in Christ then why must i convert? Why must i change my name? Why must i change my culture and language??? I pray to Christ whilst being a Hindu at same time... Conversions invariably lead to hatred and religious conflicts. Help other disadvantaged Hindus be better Hindus and you'd find your faith in Christianity getting stronger...

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at June 28, 2005 5:57 AM

i think i remember reading in an article on Zoroastrianism that you cannot convert to it, you must be born into it. could someone clarify for me. thanks

Posted by: t-ham at June 28, 2005 7:52 AM

Well, t-ham, if that is true, then the justification the converts could use is that they, the Iranians, were Zoroastrians before they were converted to Islam. Hence (now this will rile the Islamists), they are reverts to Zoroastrianism.

I am aware that Parsees (what Zoroastrians are known in India, which possibly has the largest population of Zoroastrians in the world, possibly even more that Iran) did not routinely marry outside their religion; though reformers have increasingly allowed extra-communal marriages. This is is due to their dwindling numbers. Also, the restriction on extra-faith marriages increased the risk of genetic defects due to the consanguineous nature that such unions have, due to their community's small numbers in any given population.

Posted by: Jsingleton at June 28, 2005 9:12 AM

One thing the Europeans can do to show where they are on Western Values is to make every immigrant sign a pledge, something like this:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

from Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In fact, every country in the U.N. should be forced to sign it.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at June 28, 2005 10:28 AM

Jsingleton: thanks for the response, just stopped by the house to check in between job 1 and job 2, ahhh the time honored pursuit of the filthy lucre, God bless Democracy and the free-market capitalist state. world, eat your heart out. keep your foamin' frothin' diatribes, we have America and you don't, ....and can't, ....and never will. Islamic theocracy my ass.

"good people sleep soundly at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf".......gotta love it.

Posted by: t-ham at June 28, 2005 2:09 PM

>Well I think it'll be better of Iranians convert to Zoroastrianism becoz they can better relate to it. And it'll be more easy to convince them to convert since it's their ancestral religion...

One of them. There were Jews and Christians in Iran long before Mohammed was born, and before the last incarnation of Zoroastrianism.

Posted by: saychel at June 28, 2005 4:12 PM