Dhimmi Watch: Clueless at the Financial Times

July 29, 2005

Clueless at the Financial Times

In "Ethnic communities can be devout and good citizens" in the Financial Times (thanks to EPG), Krishna Guha falls into the extremely common error of thinking of the problem of Islamic terror as a racial one, and failing to recognize or understand the significant differences between the suspicions leveled at the Islamic community today and that directed toward other immigrant communities in the past: Muslim immigrants in the West are the first large-scale community of people whose religious tradition mandates warfare against unbelievers that the West has had to deal with.

Full citizenship carries responsibilities as well as rights. The right to freedom of speech and religion confers a duty to accept the free speech and religion of others.
Most liberal values are process values: people of faith can look to change society through politics. Yet some things are sacrosanct, including equal rights for women. Those who cannot accept this should exercise their right to exit western society.

Obviously the identity crisis is most extreme and dangerous among young Muslims – partly because Islam is a resurgent faith, partly because Sunni theological debate has been stifled, partly because of Muslims’ suffering in the Middle East and the Balkans.

And partly because of the imperative to impose Sharia -- but that goes unmentioned.

Yet lest anyone think that the fundamental question – can someone be a devout believer and a good British citizen? – is unique to Islam it is worth remembering that for centuries Protestant England agonised over whether it was possible to be Catholic and a loyal subject. As late as 1960 some Americans questioned whether Catholic John F. Kennedy could be president.

Yes, they did. But the fact that that happened and was groundless in that instance doesn't mean that similar concerns about a very different group are groundless now.

The horror of the London attacks is one of super-empowerment of a tiny handful in whom the identity crisis was twisted into murder. There have been white bombers too – David Copeland, the Soho nailbomber in Britain, Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma bomber in the US.

I couldn't care less if they were purple. Their color has absolutely nothing to do with it. John Walker Lindh was a "white" jihadist, and there are others. Also, is this really a question of "identity crisis"? The jihadists seem quite certain and firm about their identity.

There is much work to be done. Yet none of this proves Islam is incompatible with western society.

Sure, Krishna, because you haven't discussed the real issues that raise questions about that compatibility.

Britain has 1.6m Muslims and four bombers.

Don't count your chickens.

There was great anger within this community about the war in Iraq and what did they do? They marched from Speaker’s Corner to Trafalgar Square and elected a firebrand Scottish leftist MP for Bethnal Green in London’s East End. Nothing could be more British.

Well, all the readers of FT feel greatly reassured now, but in reality, Guha has offered them nothing in the way of genuine evidence that they need not be concerned.

Posted by Robert at July 29, 2005 2:37 PM
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This is the 'knowledge' level that the FT offers? How lost can you be? Get this woman a book or two critical of Islam. She may learn something, or maybe not.

Posted by: reset

at July 29, 2005 3:04 PM

"Ethnic communities can be devout and good citizens"

Correct.

Posted by: ia786

at July 29, 2005 3:32 PM

What does the "Financial Times," which recently headed some tireless compiler's list, of the "Ten Best Newspapers in the World" (the Corriere della Sera, once the employer of Dino Buzzati and Eugenio Montale, was deservedly on it; The New Duranty Times slid to No. 8, and the chairman of the Murasaki Shikibu fan-club, Ms. Gracia Hosokawa, was amazed to discover that the Asahi Shimbun was on it, but not the Yomiuri Shimbun --my goodness gracious, she said), think it is doing by publishing such nonesense? And will it take that nonsense apart, phrase by phrase, as has been done here, but in even greater detail?

The ink-papered and pampered FT always lent an air of respectability to the most louche activities. The stockbroker from Sevenoaks could fold the FT under his arm as he entered a hotel for an illicit afternoon rendezvous; it conferred respectability. If you were on the Tube, you could ostentatiously read the book reviews rather than the lists of stock prices, and thus demonstrate to the girl on your left or quite possibly your right that you were not that kind of stockbroker. You were cultivated -- just trying to make a living, paying for the Oast House, but dreaming of retiring early and writing, or painting, or something.

The FT may wish not to offend, may wish very much to please, that large group of very rich Arabs in London, the ones who invest in England, who place ads in the FT for Arab banks and Arab contractors and Arab enterprises of every kind, nor wish to drive away those readers who are being addressed by those ads for estates in Kent, houses and messuage in St. John's Wood, an apartment in The Albany that has just become amazingly available -- no, far better to publish this pap for them.

And if the Infidels who read the FT are annoyed, well, they know that it doesn't mean anything. They know why we are doing it. They won't hold it against us. For god's sake, we've all got to play this game, as long as the Arabs have so much money.

Oh no we don't. Krishna Gutha has demonstrated gullibiilty, stupidity, above and beyond the call of duty. The FT must now make things right.

Will it?

Posted by: Hugh

at July 29, 2005 3:33 PM

Sure they can, IA786, but one group (that actually crosses ethnic lines) in particular is not doing a very good job of it these days, and that is an opinion recently expressed in Al-Sharq Al-Awsat by its editor and some of its contributors.

I can't say I have checked FT out very often, but I'm not sure this article is particularly representative nor that its broad readership is as gormless as Krishna Guha.

Posted by: waterdragon52

at July 29, 2005 3:58 PM

Clueless in Canada

Here's a link to the meeting our Prime Minister held last night with 19 whahabbi based Imams that denounced Global violence , this meeting was to appease Muslims that were angry after the news that Canadian troops were heading to Afghanistan to kill Taliban Jihadists that want us dead.
Not one female Muslims was invited to the meeting and most of the men I recognized in the video are demanding Sharia-Law Courts for female Muslims when dealing with family issues , Paul Martin is facing an election very soon and he may lose a seat in the Muslim/Arab Mississauga ridding because he kicked out a Liberal from his Party that insulted him during a media interview.

* Note how not 1 of the Imams in the past few years actually condemns the Muslim that is slaughtering the civilians , nor do they make a condemnation of killing for Allah without a qualifier that drags in the Iraq and Palestine conflicts or uses the "Innocent" clause from the Quran that defines who are the enemies of Islam.

Posted by: ala-sux

at July 29, 2005 4:38 PM

I'm going to go slightly off-topic here. I am perplexed about something. Maybe ia can help.

Aren't prospective shahids supposed to shave off all bodily hair, wear perfume and several sets of underwear in anticipation of their climactic entry into Jannah?

Muktar Said Ibrahim, however, not only sports a goatee arrangement but also an extremely hirsute chest. The Somalian also has facial hair. Whether or not he also has chest hair is still shrouded in mystery.

Might it be a double bluff? Any insight into this would be welcome. I do hate these niggling little puzzles.

Posted by: Silvester

at July 29, 2005 5:18 PM

"Most liberal values are process values: people of faith can look to change society through politics. Yet some things are sacrosanct, including equal rights for women. Those who cannot accept this should exercise their right to exit western society."

I agree with this. I'm glad that western society is tolerant. However tolerance has to be mutual, or it has no future. Tolerance will work as long as we are all committed to being personally tolerant, and to having a secular, representative government that treats all citizens equally regardless of religion. How about that?

Posted by: Viking5

at July 29, 2005 5:21 PM

"Aren't prospective shahids supposed to shave off all bodily hair, wear perfume and several sets of underwear in anticipation of their climactic entry into Jannah?"

No, where did you hear this????

You are obviously referring to suicide bombers, I don't know what they go through. I can relate this question to a Muslim approaching death. Well Muslim fighters would make their ablutions (wudhu) before they would go to battle. If water is not available than a dry Wudhu can be performed, this is performed with the earth or with a rock/stone. This would be preparation for death. I have heard about some applying perfume. A person going to fight in a holy war would have to have permission from his parents. If lets say the person had no brothers or no one to look after his parents (their old or ill) then they would not be allowed to go. That is unless their parents let them go.

"Muktar Said Ibrahim, however, not only sports a goatee arrangement but also an extremely hirsute chest. The Somalian also has facial hair. Whether or not he also has chest hair is still shrouded in mystery."

Muslims are not supposed to have goatees. I don't know where you get this thing about hairy chests. I have never heard about anything regarding that. Actually, In heaven no man or woman would have bodily hair, you may be referring to that.

It is a good practise for Muslims to be within the state of purity (ablution) at all times. It brings great blessings, and as we know accidents do happen, if someone was to die in a state of Wudha death would be a lot easier for him/her. When a person is dying, Surah Ya-Sin is recited over them. Their loved ones are brought to them, the person recites the Kalimah, these are the last words of a Muslim.

It is stated that good Muslims are told when that they will be dying soon. This means that they have the opportunity to meet loved ones, patch things up with people they didn’t get on with, pay off any debts. Ask God for forgiveness. Things like that, its strange, their was an old woman that passed away recently (God Bless her). About a week before she passed away she visited us and I remember her greeting me, she never looked happier. It’s strange when you think about it. (God grant her happiness)

Oh yeh, this would be a good place to add this. I have heard about how Muslims that have pig put on them or whatever cannot go to heaven. That is utterly wrong. This physical World has no connection to the spiritual (real) realm. The soul is not affected by that, at death, the soul is no longer in the body, the body decomposes and all that, the soul doesn’t.

Posted by: ia786

at July 29, 2005 6:12 PM

I have heard about how Muslims that have pig put on them or whatever cannot go to heaven.

What about the pig? Does that go to heaven?

Could there be a heaven without bacon sandwiches?

Posted by: Interested

at July 29, 2005 6:58 PM

The point is not that we have 1.6 million Muslims but only 8 bombers. The point is that we have no Hindu bombers, no Sikh bombers, no Buddhist bombers, and no Jewish bombers.

Posted by: Doctor Phibes

at July 29, 2005 7:00 PM

ia - thanks for reply. The letter that was found by Mohammed Atta gave instructions that excess bodily hair should be shaved and that cologne should be worn.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,560773,00.html

The underwear I cannot find a link for, but I do remember reading it somewhere.

Posted by: Silvester

at July 29, 2005 7:24 PM

Some people just do not get it.

This slightly ridiculous article is written by a Hindu gentleman - he should examine the successes of the Hindu community in Britain - a community that has overcome obstacles, racism, disadvantage and integrated into British society whilst maintaining their rich spiritual culture and heritage. They are a credit to Britain.

Instead of writing witless apologia for Islam he should examine why it is that people of similar racial background to the majority of Muslims in Britain who are Pakistani, Hindus and Sikhs, are able to live in peace in Britain and flourish despite racism and disadvantage. But to do this would require a frank appraisal of what is at fault here - and it is something that British Hindus like Krishna Guha need to start doing, or else their very real achievment will be traduced by associating it with the beligerent and menacing ideology that practises in Britain within the Muslim communities.

Posted by: Zico

at July 29, 2005 7:29 PM

Clueless in Canada:

oops , link didn't show up in posting.

Here it is .

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/07/29/Martin-Imams-050729.html

Posted by: ala-sux

at July 29, 2005 7:33 PM

"What about the pig? Does that go to heaven?"

All of creation from the light of God.

" The letter that was found by Mohammed Atta gave instructions that excess bodily hair should be shaved and that cologne should be worn."

I'm not sure about bodily hair, pubic hair must always be shaved though. That is mandatory.

"The underwear I cannot find a link for, but I do remember reading it somewhere."

Yeh, I think I read that.

Posted by: ia786

at July 29, 2005 7:36 PM

The nature of Islam is one topic that has occupied us all for sometime now. Islam not as a religion, but its reality. Is it islamosfascism, islamo-nazism, or some other totalitarian ideology? The simple fact is that, none of these definitions, as is obvious by now, are sufficient to merit an immuno-response from the West, as the West regards islam as a religion.

If one examines islam and its practices, it is more akin to slavery. Islam and those who convert to it, effectively become slaves. Islam = submission = subjugation, is not coincidence. Wherever islam dominates, slothful attitudes start to dominate. Free thinking stops, and people become mere cogs, almost children, dependent on the cleric on matters of any substance. Muslims are thus the first victims in this institution of slavery. I would therefore term Islam as the "religion of institutionalised slavery". It is no surprise that muslim countries are intellectual deserts. Free thinking can only occur in Free societies.

Some points worth considering

1. The institution of slavery, crushed the spirit of slaves. They were unable to think originally for themselves as a consequence. A striking feature of islamic societies.

2. Another striking feature of islamic societies is that they blame everyone else for their acts or predicaments.

In what may be consider as a traditional slave society, a similar situation holds. The slave has no power over the direction of his life, and no sense of responsibility to himself, the civic society or the state. This leads, quite naturally in my view, to blame others for his predicaments.

3. The subjugation of women and the view that women were simply chattels, ie slaves.

4. Runaway slaves used to be beaten, and oft executed as a lesson to other would be runaway slaves. The same punishment is koranically sanctioned for the muslim apostate. Is it mere coincidence?

The most public manifestation of our acceptance of institutionalised slavery in the West is the burqa. It is a symbol, that we as a Western society, have recognised the institutionalised slavery of women in islam, as legitimate in the West. This is absolutely absurd. Freedom and slavery are mutually incompatible. One can only expand at the expense of the other. It is a tragedy that we have allowed in, into the domain of Freedom, a society that practices slavery, and worse we give it legitimacy under the guise of multiculturalism.

So here we are, in the 21st century, right here in the domain of Freedom, and we have allowed islands of slavery to become established within this domain. This is absurd.

Freedom and slavery can never co-exist. Islam, in its practice, turns out to be the oldest totalitarian ideology of all - slavery, with just the added but genius touch, that it is divinely sanctioned by allah.

I'm tentatively putting this hypothesis, that islam is really a religion for slavery, and to garner more slaves, is the purpose of Jihad. Slave society can only exist economically, if it continues to grow at the expense of Free societies, and thus get the succour that itself, it cannot produce. We were fooled into letting Islam into the domain of Freedom. Islam avoided the radar that protects Free societies, as it cloaked itself as a religion. (The radars needs to be re-programmed).

To fight the cultural and physical war against islam, one needs an identifying cause, a just cause, a righteous cause, as Baron Bodissey put it. Defence or offence on the basis of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or an amalgam of all three, will not work. All three religions are essentially pacifist, and besides, the West is essentially secular. The defeat of the last citadel of slavery on this planet, is most certainly a worthwhile, righteous and secular cause that will unite all.

It is worth remembering that Winston Churchill did identify islam as slavery

"The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."

Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).

Posted by: DP111

at July 29, 2005 7:44 PM

Propagate This Faith.

This is the Time 07/29/2005.

This is the Faith:

This Religion is Truth and This Church is Freedom
This can be prayed as many, one, or none.
This has no name and can be given any name.
This has created everything.
This creatures are all pure and sacred and all deserve the same rights.
This needs no prophet and raised no prophet: all these are inventions of evil.
This needs no book and inspired no book: all these are inventions of evil
Human union is between one woman and one man.
A human child has the right to have one mother and one father.
evil name is lie, child of jealousy and envy.
The wicked lost their ability to distinguish Good from evil and became evil slaves.
We will burn the wicked in the fire of Truth as only This can fight evil.

This is the Prayer:

I acknowleged the nature of evil.
I will spread the Faith on Earth with all my might.
I will fight the wicked till they come back to the path of Truth or die.
Then peace will come to Earth and This will will be accomplished

Posted by: ila

at July 29, 2005 7:53 PM

ia786:

Have you posted the links to islamic sites, where you oppose people who take an extreme form of islam?

Looking forward to them.

Posted by: DP111

at July 29, 2005 8:19 PM

Saladin, 1a, queen of Betshambas:

1a calls himself a "moderate". These are his "moderate" views:

The twintowers "imploded, it was all engineered by the CIA and the Mossad"- but Bin Laden is a "good Muslim" and the 19 "magnificent" terrorists are his heroes. (all of that in the same sentence)

Israel and the Jews must be wiped out.

America and the coalition must be driven out of Iraq since they are only there to "steal the oil"

Don't bother with the rest. Its all straigt out of OBL's Jihad manual against the West. And of course he wants to see women covered up from head to toe, infibulated in the proper fashion,
Sharia law for GB and the rest of Eurabia no doubt...

The only hope I have for him is that as long as he is writing his crap here on DW he is not out to rape and kill or bomb infidels.

So much for being moderate, 1a. If you are moderate, then I am a radical. I wanna see you MF's gone....

Posted by: Terminator

at July 29, 2005 9:24 PM

Have you posted the links to islamic sites, where you oppose people who take an extreme form of islam?
Looking forward to them.

DP111,
to be a moslem means to never have to be embarrassed when caught lying (to an infidel). Indeed, freedom from decency is one of Islam's greatest appeals...

Posted by: thomas. h

at July 29, 2005 10:15 PM

Terminator, don't lie. You know where I stand.

"The twintowers "imploded, it was all engineered by the CIA and the Mossad"- but Bin Laden is a "good Muslim" and the 19 "magnificent" terrorists are his heroes. (all of that in the same sentence)"

I don't believe the official line. I never said it was the CIA or the Mossad, I am not 100% sure. Watch Loose Change 9/11. Open your eyes. As I stated earlier people like you are hypocrites. When it comes to media coverage of Islam and Muslims, you cry like babies, you claim the media is Saudi owned (!?!?!?), then when the same News orgs say that Osama and his boys were responsible for 9/11 you believe everything like sheep. No questions being asked, why, because you are moral cowards. You are inconsistent moral cowards. Suppress you conscience if you want, the truth is out there and you know it.

What’s the problem here, I know people that don't believe the official view. I know people that are worried by the certified fake Bin Laden vid that was released by the US. I am worried about the how many witnesses views contradict that of the US admin. These people are not extremists, no one says this to them, its different for Muslims though, its different because I believe Muhammad was the last messenger sent by God. That is the only difference you Nazi.

I have nothing against the people of America, Bush and the US admin are idiots. This is not a war on Islamic extremism, if it was they would be after Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. This is about oil and Imperialism, that is why they went after Afghanistan and Iraq. At least I know half of America didn’t vote for Bush and are really upset with him winning another term. At least Muslims don’t generalise, that is easy, any one can do that, moral cowards do that. People like you, people that don’t want to think, people that wish to simplify complex issues.

http://www.sorryeverybody.com/

America I accept your apology.

"Bin Laden is a "good Muslim" and the 19 "magnificent" terrorists are his heroes. (all of that in the same sentence)"

Blatant lie.

I detest Bin Laden, he is a criminal. The 19 Hijackers, if responsible for the attacks would be classed as cold blooded murderers, however some of them are alive and there is no proof that they actually carried out the attacks. Oh yeh, actually and Atta's passport survived the attacks, silly me. (sarcasm)

"Israel and the Jews must be wiped out."

Another blatant lie.

I have stated Israel and Palestine both have a right to exist, this is something the Nazis here oppose viciously, that’s your problem, not mine. Get over yourself.

When have I supported the extermination of Jews???? Proof please.

"America and the coalition must be driven out of Iraq since they are only there to "steal the oil"

They will be driven out. They won't be able to stay in Iraq. I call things down the middle, America can bomb a place as relentlessly as they like, they know, when the dust settles the Lions will come out. It happened it Vietnam, more bombs were dropped on Vietnam that all those of WW2 put together, the US still lost, they lost, what 58,000 men. Bombs alone will not win wars.

I oppose American Imperialism, I oppose American racism and superiority over other nations. I oppose that. Call me what you want, Jihadi, Islamist, I really couldn’t care. Your opinion of me has no consequences, it means nothing. You my friend are a Nazi, you are unreasonable, rude and arrogant, you are a moral coward.

You speak of things you know nothing about. The world is not black and white, things are not always so simple. Understand that. Extremism is ignorance, if you have a complaint against me, bring it. Make your claim. I am here. As a peaceful, rational, reasonable moderate British Muslim, I am here. Tell me, what is your problem. What have you got against me???

You don't like Muslims, close Mosques, deportations?!?!?!?

Get over yourself

Islam has been opposed for 1400+years, yet God is the protector of Islam and it has flourished. Black, white, brown, yellow, it doesn’t matter. God is Great, that is all that counts. If you have a problem with Islam do something, go upto a wall and bang your head against it. This site is about Islamic terrorism, something that threatens Muslims and Non-Muslims. I am pretty sure that Islamic terrorism has killed more Muslims than Non-Muslims, however I would say the life of a brown Arab has little value to you. You my friend are jeopardising the Work of Robert Spencer, he has his views about Islam, so be it, this is not an Anti-Islam site, this is an anti-Terrorist site, if you don’t want to help leave. It’s as simple as that. Just stop crying like a baby and also stop spreading outright lies. You got that?

Posted by: ia786

at July 29, 2005 10:23 PM

ia786,

Well, there certainly does seem to be quite a bit of confusion about who is interpreting the Qur'an properly.

You have intimated that yours is the correct interpretation, and have also suggested that 1.2 billion other Muslims also interpret the Qur'an in a manner similar to yours.

But, I would bet money that those two fellows captured in Notting Hill today would say that theirs is the true, correct, and unadultered interpretation.

Now, language translations aside, I suspect that you and those two read the same basic Qur'an.

So, if you don't mind, who is right, here? And why.

Posted by: PRCS

at July 29, 2005 10:41 PM

"Well, there certainly does seem to be quite a bit of confusion about who is interpreting the Qur'an properly.

You have intimated that yours is the correct interpretation, and have also suggested that 1.2 billion other Muslims also interpret the Qur'an in a manner similar to yours.

But, I would bet money that those two fellows captured in Notting Hill today would say that theirs is the true, correct, and unadultered interpretation."

Of course they would.

"Now, language translations aside, I suspect that you and those two read the same basic Qur'an.

So, if you don't mind, who is right, here? And why."

The 1.2 Billion + Muslims are right.

To begin with the Prophet Muhammad stated that during difficult times there would be some division amongst Muslims. The Prophet stated at this time the majority should be followed, that is Muslims should stick to the largest group as they would be on the correct path, the largest Jammah.

The Holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-Azam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]

Now The Alhus-Sunnah, the Sunnis, not the Wahabis are the largest group of Muslims.

The Holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "The devil continually pursues humans as a wolf pursues sheep. The wolf only dares to attack those sheep which have separated from the rest of the flock and are standing alone. And so, my followers and my devotees! Save yourselves from being caught in the traps of misguidance and firmly remain with the largest and most well known group of Muslims!" [ Imam Ahmed]

The Sunnis believe that one cannot read the Quran and come up with ones own interpretation or understanding, the Sunnis reject this method, this was not the ways of the companions. When a verse was revealed the Sahaba came to the Prophet for the interpretation, it is not to be taken literally. That is wrong, there is a system in place for this, one cannot bypass this.

"Imam Rabbani Mujaddid Alf Thanni(Radi Allahu anhu)(971AH-1034AH) states in his famous book Maktubaat " The way of Salvation is followance of the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaah. May Almighty Allah bestow blessings upon the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaah, in their speech, in their actions, laws, for this is the successful group. Besides this, all other groups have become victims of deception. Today, nobody realises how much these misled groups will be punished, however, on the Day of Judgement this secret will become apparent. Even though at that time this knowledge will be of no benefit to the misled."

When it comes to controversial issues it is paramount that Muslims look back at what the Classical scholars have stated.

=================================================

The saying below is really important now.

"Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab (radi Allahu anhu) said: "Soon there will come a time when you will be confronted by people who will entangle in controversies with the ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran. Overpower them through Hadith, because those who possess the knowledge of Hadith will be in the position to understand the Quran." (Darimi, Darqutni)"

No Muslim can come against the Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman or Ali (God Bless them all). That is it.

No one can come against the statements of Umar Ibn Khattab (r.a.)

-------------------------------------------------

Hazrat Imam Sufyaan bin Ainiyyah (alaihir rahmah) said: "Hadith can lead anyone astray except those who are Jurists. The reason being that the Quran is abstract which has become clear and meaningful through the Hadith, while the abstractness of the Hadith is expounded by the Four Juristic Imaams. Thus, if anyone now attempts to extract meanings of the Quran and Hadith without the four Imaams, he will go astray, and he who tries to understand the Quran without Hadith will grope the abyss of ignorance."

O Muslims! Pay no heed to these misguided people. Whenever they try to cast doubt in you through the Quran, dispel your doubts through the Hadith. If they try to undermine your faith in this, seek solutions on the matter provided by the juristic Imaams. The solutions provided by the Imaams will most certainly establish the distinction between truth and falsehood. This will help settle the dust of uncertainty and misguidance through these torrents of Truth. If they try to argue over Hadith, the crystal clear meanings of the Ahadith provided by the Imaams will silence them to such an extent that they either say that they do not know the Hadith or that they do not believe in the Imaams. At this juncture you will know that their Imaam is none other than Iblees, the Cursed, who is leading them astray and preventing them from accepting the Hadith and the decisions of the Imaams. Do keep this in mind at all times because, through the will of Allah, it will protect you at all times from these faithless, misguided sects. (Courtesy: Sunni Razvi Society Int., March '95)

-------------------------------------------------

These are things that no upright Muslim can possibly deny. Truth will overcome falsehood.

From this proof you should know who is right and who is wrong.

Now as you are not a Muslim you don't know what the wrong-doers actually do in real life. Hizb Ut Tahrir actually think pornography is permissible to watch, these extremists group have no standing in Islam.

-------------------------------------------------

I am sure there are some reading this that will be looking for holes so that they can give those terrorist criminals some creditability in Islam.

Well go ahead. You are spineless. You say how they are 'good' Muslims, you say that petty thieves that smoke ganja are good Muslims, you tell Muslims to refute the terrorist version of Islam when you know damn well they have no standing. You know damn well that scholars have rebuked terrorists and have stated that they have no standing in Islam. The 4 bombers were not regarded as martyrs by the Islamic Scholars in Britain.

What is it all for, it is for your selfish agenda, you put that before those that are killed in terror attacks, you put that before more than a Billion Muslims that practise Islam peacefully. As the Prophet Muhammad stated:

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "The devil continually pursues humans as a wolf pursues sheep. The wolf only dares to attack those sheep which have separated from the rest of the flock and are standing alone. And so, my followers and my devotees! Save yourselves from being caught in the traps of misguidance and firmly remain with the largest and most well known group of Muslims!" [ Imam Ahmed]

You put it before everything just to satisfy your own evil desires.

Again I will say the same thing. What IF the terrorist version of Islam is correct (though it isn’t), so what. More than a Billion are not following it (just one proof that they are misguided *see hadith*) that version. More than a Billion Muslims practice Islam peacefully across the World. Yet you want to state that we are doing it wrong.

That is a spineless selfish action. Spineless.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 12:05 AM

ia786,

First off, I'll try to keep my questions down to a brief, few sentences, if you'll keep your answers likewise.

O.K?

Second, resorting to name calling makes a credible dialogue difficult.

Third, I never said that 1.2 billion Muslims are 'doing it' wrong. I asked whose interpretation is correct?

You asked:

"What IF the terrorist version of Islam is correct...?"

Is there any reasonable possiblity that the terrorist's version of Islam IS correct?

Posted by: PRCS

at July 30, 2005 1:26 AM

Of course, if pigs are from God, but horribly, horribly unclean, how can they go back to god? Not notably sensible.

Then again, neither notably sensible is this nonsense about how Term is "spineless" because he doesn't believe your pap. How would that relate in any way to personal bravery? Nonsense. If anything, the fact that he's taking risks to oppose your silliness is evidence of bravery, not "spinelessness".

Glad to hear that all muslims should follow Sunni ways...too bad that a) the rest of islam thinks you're full of shit and b) Sunnis themselves are not exactly clean historically or presently.

"No one can come against the statements of Umar Ibn Khattab"

The same one who rounded up all the Qurans and destroyed the old ones? Wonder what he missed putting in the new ones, eh?
Third caliphate boy? Warmonger?

"O Muslims! Pay no heed to these misguided people. Whenever they try to cast doubt in you through the Quran, dispel your doubts through the Hadith. If they try to undermine your faith in this, seek solutions on the matter provided by the juristic Imaams...blah blah."

And what do these jurors say about apostatism? Kill. And about adultery? Kill. And about insults to the prophet, or his religion or allah or allah's little finger or the prophet's beard? Kill. You may see why we do not particularly care about islamic "jurism".

"From this proof you should know who is right and who is wrong."

It is not a proof, but rather an opinion. Why must islam always talk in 'proofs', when they present material that never is a 'proof' of any kind regarding almost anything, and when muslims follow a deity they have no proof of? Bring your proofs, if ye be truthful - and make sure they're actually proofs, not specious low-grade correlation.

"these extremists group have no standing in Islam"

Says you. They disagree.

"I am sure there are some reading this that will be looking for holes so that they can give those terrorist criminals some creditability in Islam."

They say they are; other muslims say they are; who are you to say they are not? Who do you speak for? You have no backing, you lead no one.

"You know damn well that scholars have rebuked terrorists and have stated that they have no standing in Islam. The 4 bombers were not regarded as martyrs by the Islamic Scholars in Britain."

Just as you know damn well that they WERE revered as martyrs in Pakistan and other muslim countries - in their home countries. As you know that other imams and other muslim religious AGREED that the bombings were justified. Others still went with the old "one story in Arabic, one in English" methodology. Please don't try to lie about this, I would hate to have to humiliate you by setting up the links.

"Again I will say the same thing. What IF the terrorist version of Islam is correct (though it isn’t), so what. More than a Billion are not following it...Yet you want to state that we are doing it wrong."

Well, you are. We've read your holy books and most muslims seem unlike their prophet, for which I am quite grateful. Most muslims do indeed appear to be peaceful (well, about 50% maybe, unless you insult the prophet or dare to argue religion or dare to speak "shirk" to them, etc etc - how easily offended some faiths are) but in so doing they diverge from Mohammed, who was not peaceful.

Then again, one wonders: since I won the debate at FFI, why are you still talking?

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff

at July 30, 2005 1:26 AM

Of course, if pigs are from God, but horribly, horribly unclean, how can they go back to god? Not notably sensible.

Glad to hear that all muslims should follow Sunni ways...too bad that a) the rest of islam thinks you're full of shit and b) Sunnis themselves are not exactly clean historically or presently.

"No one can come against the statements of Umar Ibn Khattab"

The same one who rounded up all the Qurans and destroyed the old ones? Wonder what he missed putting in the new ones, eh?
Third caliphate boy? Warmonger?

"From this proof you should know who is right and who is wrong."

"these extremists group have no standing in Islam"

Says you. They disagree.

"I am sure there are some reading this that will be looking for holes so that they can give those terrorist criminals some creditability in Islam."

They say they are; other muslims say they are; who are you to say they are not? Who do you speak for? You have no backing, you lead no one.

"You know damn well that scholars have rebuked terrorists and have stated that they have no standing in Islam. The 4 bombers were not regarded as martyrs by the Islamic Scholars in Britain."

Then again, one wonders: since I won the debate at FFI, why are you still talking?

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff

at July 30, 2005 1:27 AM

Saladin:

Did I rattle the screws of your coffee-filter?

You are as "moderate" as Mohammed Atta's father.

As long as you play the (irate) clown here on DW you don't blow things up. That may keep you out of harms way but that doesn't make you a 'moderate'...

'complex issues?' The complexes are all yours: You have an inferiority complex about race, you have a superiority complex because of your 'religion' and you are a sexual spastic as you can not relate to a female in a normal way: Unless 'she' is 'elevated' to slave status and put to use as a breeding machine...

You are clueless about politics as you seem to be equally clueless about the Koran. I am not one who continually posts suras here or hadith but of course I know them and I know not only about Islamic history of conquest, rape, destruction and eradication of many cultures, but I have also travelled extensively in Islamic countries and what I saw was not pretty.

Your denial about Islamic atrocities in the above posts puts you in the same category of 'moderate' Turks, Iranians, Afghans, Moroccans, Algerians, Tunesians, Egytians and of course Pakistani and Indian Mohammedans, 'respectable' people, -all of them,- whom I met along the way and who ALL held THE SAME VIEWS, just like you. I guess you guys all go to the same mosque or the same madrassah!

Do I need to mention that they ALL held the view that Hitler 'was a good man' and when asked why: "Because he killed the Jooooosss"....

I can assure you that many of them were more intelligent then you are!

The Koran is pretty clear on Jihad and on the extermination of Infidels and Jews. Sure, go ahead and lie it isn't so. The Jihad freaks prove it to us every day that they are the 'better Muslims' and as you can see in Pakistan: The London bombers get a "Martyrs" funeral. Islamic heroes!

But you would surely deny that there is 'any evidence' that it was them?

Posted by: Terminator

at July 30, 2005 2:01 AM

Shirki,Saladin:

Wanna argue? Argue with Khomeini:

Here is a statement from the Ayatollah Khomeini. Do you think that this statement, from a leading Shi’a theologian, misstates Islamic theology, and is simply one man’s view, or do you think that it correctly expresses a view that can be easily derived from a reading of Qur’an and the hadith contained, for example, in the “sahih” collections of Bukhari and Muslim?

“Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world.

But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world….Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies[. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we sould surrender to the enemy? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] verses and Hadiths [sayings of the Porphet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

Posted by: Terminator

at July 30, 2005 2:38 AM

Shirk, 1a, queen of Timbuktu:

Khomeini was a "great Islamic scholar"- was he not? How about sheik Yassin, this creepin' excrement who was at long last finally put out of his misery? A "Martyr" just like Arafat who died of AIDS?

The jihadist enemy, on the other hand, is operating on principles and values squarely in the tradition of Islam, and thus unlike fascism and communism is expressing a spiritual need and an orthodox religious mandate: to fulfill by force the will of Allah that all the world be subject to Islam and an Islamic state, the caliphate, ruled by sharia, Islamic religious law. Those conquered infidels who refuse to convert are reduced to dhimmi, subordinated and humiliated peoples whose restricted rights, diminished lives, and circumscribed behavior testify to the superiority of their Muslim overlords and their divine right to oppress the infidel and exploit him economically. This dynamic of jihad and dhimmitude has been extensively documented by Bat Ye'or and other scholars, and is apparent on every page of Islamic jurisprudence, theology, and history from the eighth century to today....

In fact, the obsession with the Palestinians is the smoking gun that reveals the jihadist sentiments of double-talking “moderates.” Consider how many British Muslims, supposedly opposed to homicide bombings, praised Hamas founder Sheikh Yassim, who engineered the murder of over 500 Israelis in furtherance of his organization's long-term goal to destroy Israel. After the Israeli Defense Forces killed him, a memorial service was held in London, an event attended by “moderates” like Muslim Council Secretary General Sir Iqbal Sacranie, who called Yassim a “renowned Islamic scholar,” an estimation shared by Inayat Bunglawla. Think about the implications: respected, Westernized “moderate” Muslims praise a terrorist murderer as an “Islamic scholar,” and we are supposed to believe that “fanatics” have “hijacked” and “distorted” Islam?...

Posted by: Terminator

at July 30, 2005 2:50 AM

MOHAMMED COME OUT COME OUT!!!!!
No I scared!!!! you may mistreat me or kill me

ia 666
I remember that you stated that you are prepared to commit shaheed or have you changed your posts over at FFI

Warning Ticking Time-bomb in London
Remember the humble muslim that came to this site,and then left after humiliating us all.
He is now Under the illusion that he is Saladin shaking the foundation at
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8371&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120
Scroll half way down
True Muslims are Lions of God, we fear nothing. We have no fear of death, in my life if I am destined to be shaeed in any way (death due to certain illnesses, accidents, die defending what/who I love) then I am content with that. That is worth more to me than all the riches in the World.
The question is how more like this are now stalking in the streets and malls of London,New York or any other city in Europe or America

Warning Ticking Time-bomb in London
well a few have gone off and a few where duds
THE BIG QUESTION IS
IS IA666 ticking

Posted by: shiva

at July 30, 2005 5:39 AM

MOHAMMED COME OUT COME OUT!!!!!
No I scared!!!! you may mistreat me or kill me

ia 666
I remember that you stated that you are prepared to commit shaheed or have you changed your posts over at FFI

Warning Ticking Time-bomb in London
well a few have gone off and a few where duds

THE BIG QUESTION
IS ia666 TICKING???????????????

Posted by: shiva

at July 30, 2005 5:42 AM

A Londo-centric view from a London-based paper. Notice the references - Arsenal, Trafalgar Square, the Soho nail-bomber, Bethnal Green... Get in your car Krishna Guha, and drive out of London. Away from all the trendy ethnic restaurants and cafes, away from the parks where people of all races and colours mingle, away from the 'rainbow' city. And drive up to Birmingham - Aston, say. There's no diversity there, it's almost entirely Pakistani - Kashmiri, to be exact. It's so British there that in the last election these people could vote for the People's Justice Party, whose key platform policy is to help effect self-determination for Kashmir. Thanks to the introduction of postal ballots, the concept of one person, one vote, that underpins the democracy that has been a mainstay of this nation for hundreds of years no longer exists there. Nor does it in wards in Bradford, Blackburn and other cities across Lancashire and Yorkshire. How could it when so many of the woman imported from the homeland do not speak English? And even if they do, why, this is something the man of house takes care of; politics is not something with which women should concern themselves. Next they'll be wanting economic emancipation! (btw - ever visited a Muslim matrimonial site? They are unique, the only such sites where you find men requesting an uneducated bride). Are you exercised by this Cherie Blair? Mrs Blair...?

As for London, well, the writer must know - surely - that George Galloway will be the last white, non-Muslim MP in Tower Hamlets. Galloway acknowledges as much himself. After all, despite his sympathies, how can he really, truly, represent so many of his constituents? He's not one of them, and he knows it. Banglatown will have one of its own. One who understands the horse-trading and means of vote-acquisition that prevails in that culture. Democracy as they know it.

Posted by: Effractor

at July 30, 2005 5:50 AM

ia,
blow all you want, the bottom line is that i am long-past the times when i could entertain your views with an open mind. i am just as firm in my beliefs as you are in yours, and there in, bucko, lies the rub. you can reference all the obscure references you want, you can partially quote all the incomplete quotes at your disposal,
you can post all the half-truths and shaded truths and truths with the "pearl" omitted. you have become white noise. i treat you like commercials on TV, when you interupt the thread, i tune you out. i will no longer respond to you, just as i no longer respond to that stupid commercial on TV. (tired of explaining the brick-shaped hole to the repairman)
anyway, you only have yourself to blame. you cant seriously expect to offer us such low-quality fare and find us lapping it up. one nasty little inconvenience that keeps popping up when you try feeding mental swill to a group of bright people, is that they tend to figure you out before you really get going. you find yourself stuck, ass-deep in your own muck, and all your "targets" are walking away saying"no thanks, couldn't eat another bite" and "whoa, where DID the time go".
you can't convince anyone that goatsh!t is caviar unless they were raised on goatsh!t.
we are not your target audience.

Posted by: t-ham

at July 30, 2005 5:59 AM

Hi Shiva! How is life in Chiang Mai? Haven't been there for ages, I might pop around for a visit, or are you still in Indo?

Shirki-clown, queen of Arabia:

"If you have a problem with Islam do something, go upto a wall and bang your head against it. "

Again, bangin' your head against the mosque-floor is Mohammedan behavior and causes brain-damage, for which your postings here (and on FFI) are ample evidence.

Civilized people do not habitually bang their heads against concrete, and they do not fart (or pray) towards Mekka.

On a serious note: You know how to read and write, you have access to information, why not use it? For all the time you been wasting here and on FFI you could have learned something useful by now, especially about Islam and that it is nothing but a terror organization.

Islam = Jihad = Terror

If youre trying to get out why don't you seek help? Ali Sina will help you, don't worry...

Posted by: Terminator

at July 30, 2005 6:22 AM

PRCS;

it doesn't matter if ia and 1000 of his friends are right and the big-dogs are wrong, the fact remains that the islamofascist powerbrokers call the shots and everyone else falls into line, under pain of death, and we ALL know where they stand. "good" muslims submit. to allah, to the clerics, to peer-pressure. when a "good" muslim needs an opinion, it is dictated to him.

Posted by: t-ham

at July 30, 2005 7:43 AM

Musharraf says all foreign students at medressas must leave Pakistan. No more visas will be issued
July 29, 2005, 10:47 PM (GMT+02:00)
This is part of the crackdown the Pakistani president has ordered following the two series of bombing attacks in London.

debka.com

Posted by: hutchrun

at July 30, 2005 7:55 AM

The idiot Krishna Guha needs to talk to the non-muslim Asians in the UK for a better perspective.
They are pissed at having to be covered by the filth raised by ia786`s relatives.

Posted by: hutchrun

at July 30, 2005 7:59 AM

One must bear in mind these days that "Taqya"

Taqya: Taqya is not equal to telling lie. Taqya means to hide your real belief for the sake of your safety. Some times, to keep oneself from a danger, one might tell a lie to hide one's real belief, although one is not really a sort of person that uses to tell lies. Ammar for instance (according to some historical records) under the pressure of the sever torture by Kuffar, found no way but denying the prophet hood of the prophet only to the extent of a declaration, but not from the heart.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=2608

is rampant and the credibility gap created makes it difficult to take at face value any of the statements emanating because of pressure from the kaffirs.

Posted by: Cynic

at July 30, 2005 8:34 AM

IA: "Ethnic communities can be devout and good citizens"

Correct."

True, in as far as it goes, but "can be" is not the same as "are..."

Posted by: Cthulhu

at July 30, 2005 9:04 AM

IA: "I have stated Israel and Palestine both have a right to exist, this is something the Nazis here oppose viciously, that’s your problem, not mine. Get over yourself."

Since *when* have the Muslims opposed the Nazis? Mein Kampf is a best seller in at least a couple Muslim nations (starting with Turkey, just off the cuff), Muslims fought in the ranks of the SS in their foreign legions, hired them, post-war, to build missile, guidance systems and warheads for Egypt's missile program and seem to agree with their goal of Jewish genocide, wanting to sweep the Jews "from the river to the sea."

Posted by: Cthulhu

at July 30, 2005 9:13 AM

"Is there any reasonable possiblity that the terrorist's version of Islam IS correct?"

None whatsoever.

They have no basis. They refuse to even debate with Sunni scholars. I have seen this with my own eyes. The ‘name-calling’ was aimed at you, it was for the other Nazis here.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 9:27 AM

"Of course, if pigs are from God, but horribly, horribly unclean, how can they go back to god? Not notably sensible."

Come on Imam Geoffrey I thought you would know this. Everything is created by God from light, pigs, rats, everything. All animals go back to God in that form.

"Glad to hear that all muslims should follow Sunni ways...too bad that a) the rest of islam thinks you're full of shit and b) Sunnis themselves are not exactly clean historically or presently."

Weak. Very weak.

"And what do these jurors say about apostatism? Kill. And about adultery? Kill. And about insults to the prophet, or his relign.....blah blah blah blah......

That is a completely different issue. This is not Islamwatch.org or IslamissogreatandIfeelinsignificant.org
Get over yourself, you are deviating from the path of Robert Spencer.

"Says you. They disagree."

What we have here is a weak and spineless attack on Islam, may I add it has no backing whatsoever. Very weak.

I asked the people here to give me proof the 7/7 could be justified in Islam. I waited, nothing came. I am still waiting.

Get to work Geoff.

"They say they are; other muslims say they are; who are you to say they are not? Who do you speak for? You have no backing, you lead no one."

I follow the majority as told by the Prophet, I avoid creating fitnah, I stick to the largest Jammah. That is all, you are making such weak arguments its incredible, you are off form Geoff, sort it ooooouuuuuuutttttt!!!!

"Just as you know damn well that they WERE revered as martyrs in Pakistan and other muslim countries - in their home countries."

I didn't know damn well, by the way Geoff this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

"More than a Billion are not following it...Yet you want to state that we are doing it wrong."

"Well, you are."

Weak. *_*

"Then again, one wonders: since I won the debate at FFI, why are you still talking?"

I may have posted abit too much recently, the thing is I feel it is my duty as a British Muslim to spread truth and oppose falsehood.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 10:00 AM

"'complex issues?' The complexes are all yours: You have an inferiority complex about race, you have a superiority complex because of your 'religion' and you are a sexual spastic as you can not relate to a female in a normal way: Unless 'she' is 'elevated' to slave status and put to use as a breeding machine..."

Yeh..........

"You are clueless about politics as you seem to be equally clueless about the Koran."

Yeh...........

"Do I need to mention that they ALL held the view that Hitler 'was a good man' and when asked why: "Because he killed the Jooooosss"....

okay...........

"The Koran is pretty clear on Jihad and on the extermination of Infidels and Jews. Sure, go ahead and lie it isn't so. The Jihad freaks prove it to us every day that they are the 'better Muslims' and as you can see in Pakistan: The London bombers get a "Martyrs" funeral. Islamic heroes!"

Yeh.............

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 10:02 AM

"True Muslims are Lions of God, we fear nothing. We have no fear of death, in my life if I am destined to be shaeed in any way (death due to certain illnesses, accidents, die defending what/who I love) then I am content with that. That is worth more to me than all the riches in the World"

And what???????

Anyone not like that is a pussy.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 10:03 AM

"blow all you want, the bottom line is that i am long-past the times when i could entertain your views with an open mind. i am just as firm in my beliefs as you are in yours, and there in, bucko, lies the rub."

I expected that. I come here knowing that I am talking to Nazi death worshippers. I don't expect anything from you lot. I'm just here to make my position clear.

"you have become white noise. i treat you like commercials on TV, when you interupt the thread, i tune you out."

Good for you. As I stated what the people here say holds no consequence for me. I'll be frank the Nazi death worshippers here don't mean anything to me. You are just people that take their Nazi anger out on the net, your views are inconsistent, weak and have no basis.

"i will no longer respond to you, just as i no longer respond to that stupid commercial on TV."

As you wish.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 10:09 AM

"it doesn't matter if ia and 1000 of his friends are right and the big-dogs are wrong, the fact remains that the islamofascist powerbrokers call the shots"

weak.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 10:10 AM

"Since *when* have the Muslims opposed the Nazis? Mein Kampf is a best seller in at least a couple Muslim nations (starting with Turkey, just off the cuff), Muslims fought in the ranks of the SS in their foreign legions, hired them, post-war, to build missile, guidance systems and warheads for Egypt's missile program and seem to agree with their goal of Jewish genocide, wanting to sweep the Jews "from the river to the sea."

Weak.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 10:11 AM

Terminator
Presently I am travelling back and forth between Bangkok/Indo
I am looking at some properties in Hu Hin and Phuket.Feel more inclined for Phuket
Presently I am travelling back an forth between Bangkok/Indo
Once I am settled in you are wellcome to pop round.
Cheers
SHIVA

Posted by: shiva

at July 30, 2005 10:31 AM

ia:

Since you obviously have such a strong stance concerning your opinion that Islam is incompatible with terror, don't you think your time might be better spent engaging with Muslims who do NOT see things the way you do, thus trying to effect some sort of positive change in the world, rather than coming here all the time??

Posted by: kafira

at July 30, 2005 11:01 AM

Saladin, 1a, shirki, you missed this one:

just what kind of medication are you on exactly?

"If you have a problem with Islam do something, go upto a wall and bang your head against it. "

Again, bangin' your head against the mosque-floor is Mohammedan behavior and causes brain-damage, for which your postings here (and on FFI) are ample evidence.

Civilized people do not habitually bang their heads against concrete, and they do not fart (or pray) towards Mekka.

Islam = Jihad = Terror

If youre trying to get out why don't you seek help? Ali Sina will help you, don't worry...

Posted by: Terminator

at July 30, 2005 11:19 AM

Ever notice that when ia786 loses an argument and is incapable of assembling an effective counter-argument he just responds by charging that the very valid intial point was "weak"?

That's the sign of a completely-and-utterly inept debater - and THAT'S the behavior of a "pussy".

Posted by: CGW

at July 30, 2005 11:35 AM

666
"Then again, one wonders: since I won the debate at FFI, why are you still talking?"

Well that is not the opinion of the folks at FFI or myself
There are some who have not forgotten how you edited your initial post at FFI,AND NOW I SEE YOU HAVE RE-EDITED AGAIN

Shall we see some comments

Myrddin Emrys
I see our young Lion cub has edited his original post to remove all traces of his floor sweeping activities. Naughty boy ia786. Just in case anyone didn't catch the original:

ia,s reply
Have I done anything wrong? I am not hiding from anyone. I have edited the opening page to make it more suitable.

Always_Kafir
You did the most cowardice thing. You have challenged us to wipe the floor of FFI. But finally you got wiped out. After failed to wipe the floor here, you have changed your original post to make it more suitable to cover up your humiliating defeat. Shame on you !

ia786 wrote:
Really! I fear no-one here. The people here know what I have stated, what are you so scared of? I have changed the first post, I have claimed God is Great, I have posted a few verses, is that the real reason you're upset.

Always_Kafir
If you throw some challenges, you should stick to that. Thousands of people are watching this site everyday, hundreds of newcomers are joing this forum everyday. Changing the initial challenge and content is an act of cowardice and sign of weakness. The most pathetic thing is you even didn't realise that you did most cowardice thing and you got humiliated in this forum.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8371&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1590

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’
” Translated into common English, he just said, “I am a lying scumbag; you should not trust me.

ia666
YOU ARE A LYING SKUMBAG AND SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED

Posted by: shiva

at July 30, 2005 12:00 PM

These online debates usually take place without official judges. The point isn't to win or wipe any floors, but to get others to see your point of view. The real judges are the readers who follow these debates. They will decide whether your arguments are rational and your views are agreeable.
As we have seen many times on this forum, the ones boasting themselves as great debaters are usually sore losers who deny being defeated.
BEARING IN MIND THE COMMENTS BY POSTERS CONCERNING ia666 HE HAS FAILED MISERABLY WITH HIS ARGUMENTS

after 60 pages of debating ia666 was exposed as a chocoholic, bunny worshipping Pagan with a fetish for firm breasted young maidens!

Posted by: shiva

at July 30, 2005 12:32 PM

"Since you obviously have such a strong stance concerning your opinion that Islam is incompatible with terror, don't you think your time might be better spent engaging with Muslims who do NOT see things the way you do, thus trying to effect some sort of positive change in the world, rather than coming here all the time??"

I do that. The Islamic terrorists and the Nazis here are very similar in my opinion. Both are arrogant, ignorant death worshippers.

I am having a positive effect on the World. Don't worry.

"Ever notice that when ia786 loses an argument and is incapable of assembling an effective counter-argument he just responds by charging that the very valid intial point was "weak"?

That's the sign of a completely-and-utterly inept debater - and THAT'S the behavior of a "pussy"."

Yeh. I have been through these points many, many times. I have better things to do with my time. The arguments by the Nazis are weak. Its plain to see. They are very weak arguments.

Inconsistent views, generalisations, ignorance and sheer stupidity.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 2:21 PM

A week ago I saw “ALLAH IS A NAZI” in huge red letters painted across a poster advertising Egypt travels.
I thought about it today after seeing ia6789+VAT hurling the “nazi” invective at those who point at the nazi nature of his obscene Mohammedan cult commonly referred to as islam.

How profoundly mendacious (“islamic” is perhaps a better word) when a Moslem calls others “Nazi”.
No other religious group greeted Nazism and Hitler with greater enthusiasm than Moslems. The love affair was immediate and passionate and expressed by all layers of Moslem society; from leaders, intellectuals to man on the street.
Moslems celebrated the bombing of London and Coventry as happily as they did a when 3000 innocent civilians were burned, or buried alive in New York 4 years ago.

Moslems offered assistance to Nazis whenever they could. The great Mufti of Jerusalem was a frequent guest of Hitler and spent a great part of the war in Berlin. He exhorted his fellow believers to join Hitler's war effort and stabbed the British engaged in a mortal combat in the back.
There is a reliable indication as presented by S. Wiesenthal that the Mufti was consulted by Eichmann and Himmler on the matters related to extermination of European Jewry and most probably had visited Auschwitz.
The Moslem SS Divisions - "Handjar" and "Skandenberg" excelled themselves in butchering Jews, Serbs and Gypsies. The calls of "Allahu Akbar" and "Heil Hitler" sprung from the same lungs with equal enthusiasm.
Herr Himmler himself expressed his admiration and congratulated these Moslem Nazis for their achievements. He also expressed the opinion that Islam would be the perfect religion suited for Nazi purposes. Wow, that is quite a compliment considering the fact that Herr Himmler was an atheist! It says it all!
The great Arab leader Gamal A.Nasser and his successor A. Sadat embraced Nazi ideology and aided the Axis powers whenever they could.
The Iraqi Muslims slaughtered the Jews of Bagdad 48 hours before the British entered the city. Evidently the Muslims were realizing that with the Nazi Germany collapsing it is the last call for Moslem contribution to the Holocaust. And boy were they good at it!

Has anything changed today? Not a bit! Nowhere is Hitler's "Mein Kampf" or the "Protocols of Elders of Zion" as widely read as in the Moslem countries and nowhere is the defamation of Jews more vulgar and poisonous, or Holocaust denial more popular as among the Moslems.

I don’t have a slightest doubt that had a new Hitler crawled out from the sewer of history today promising new better ways of ridding the world of Jews he would find most enthusiastic support in the Moslem world.

Posted by: thomas. h

at July 30, 2005 2:33 PM

That Ethnic communities can be devout and good citizens may be true, but of no consequence to the topics discussed here. What is more to the point is whether all cultural groups can. Well, the past thousand or so years demonstrate that all, with the exception of Moslems, indeed can.

I think few things illustrate that fact better than the following example:

The palestinian Arabs are a definite ethnic group which, until quite recently, included a sizable Christian minority of ab. 30%. Yet practically all of the homicide bombing and indiscriminate murder of Israeli civilians were carried by Palestinian Moslems.

Evidently it is not ethnic, but religious, or cultural if you insist, that is the decisive factor.
The talk about ethnic here is a red herring. Or Taqyiah.

Posted by: thomas. h

at July 30, 2005 2:39 PM

"I thought about it today after seeing ia6789+VAT hurling the “nazi” invective at those who point at the nazi nature of his obscene Mohammedan cult commonly referred to as islam.".

No, that is not the issue here.

I called some of the death worshippers here Nazis due to their views on how to deal with Muslims.

Go back and read that thread, the one with the poll being carried out by General DiCWatschweizer.(DCWatson) Nazis. First the Jews now the Muslims.

Posted by: ia786

at July 30, 2005 3:26 PM

Hutchrun posted:The idiot Krishna Guha needs to talk to the non-muslim Asians in the UK for a better perspective. They are pissed at having to be covered by the filth raised by ia786`s relatives.

I'm told, that in London, Hindus, Sikhs and other decent kids, are sporting T-shirts emblazoned with

"Don't panic I'm not Islamic"

Posted by: DP111

at July 30, 2005 4:02 PM

First the Jews now the Muslims

As the stampede of moslems desperately trying to get out of Europe to save their lives clearly illustrates.

You guys are shameless.
History's most cruel butchers stealing blodied shirts of dead jews in order to pass themselves for victims. Your people have dignity of grave robbers.
Each time I read a moslem post it brings back the feeling of nausea that overwhelmed me when I tried to read Ququran the first time many years ago.
What a vomit!

Posted by: thomas. h

at July 30, 2005 5:00 PM

Cthulhu: "Since *when* have the Muslims opposed the Nazis? Mein Kampf is a best seller in at least a couple Muslim nations (starting with Turkey, just off the cuff), Muslims fought in the ranks of the SS in their foreign legions, hired them, post-war, to build missile, guidance systems and warheads for Egypt's missile program and seem to agree with their goal of Jewish genocide, wanting to sweep the Jews "from the river to the sea."

IA: "Weak."

In other words, when presented with fact, all you can do is enter a single word response and skuttle off like the cockroach.

Posted by: Cthulhu

at July 30, 2005 10:50 PM

ia666
I called some of the death worshippers here Nazis due to their views on how to deal with Muslims.
Go back and read that thread, the one with the poll being carried out by General DiCWatschweizer.(DCWatson) Nazis.First the Jews now the Muslims.

One more quote from ia666
Jihadwatch is like my second home, I am starting to feel real comfy there, I am getting used to being verbally abused and called a Nazi. I could never leave you guys

I remember a time not so long ago you where whining about being called a Nazi.You where even demanding an apology from me.BUT when I asked you to prove where I called you Nazi either here, JW or FFI you could not do so.WHY,for the simple reason I have never called you a Nazi.I did called you a Muzi(a term I no longer use,due to respect of Mr RS).Also I did compare you to a nazi,due to the relationship between muslims and nazis.
While on the subject of showing respect to this forum can you give links to your claims about Robert Spencer

ia quotes
You want an apology from me, you will get squat-diddly from me my friend in terms of an apology. So you claim you ‘ran me off JW’ . I’m sorry to shatter this great misconception (and fantasy) you have. Richard the Lionheart, my friend, Saladin is very much alive and kicking. Do you recall how I through debating completely annihilated a person called Shiva. This person was humiliated by me in the presence of all his/her colleagues. S/He was being butchered and squealed like a wild pig and could only respond with the words ’NAZI, NAZI’. That was a great victory. I’m sure you remember that.
I have been more busy recently, I am going back to university in a few days. My friend let me tell you that this Lion of God never runs away from anyone or anything. The forums that I have been to, well let me say that I have enlightened many, The Will of God be Done, what God wishes on us is best. I have awoken many from their deep slumber and woken many from the threat of the political Neo-Cons and Zionists. My presence will be felt on the Internet, all haters of Islam and Muslims will be looking over their shoulders. I have used well structured arguments that tie the haters in knots. How much do you wish and pray for my downfall, God is Great!!!

You seem to think very highly of Robert Spencer. As I have stated before (You may have missed this). This Zionist sent his chums to a forum to attack me and my beloved Brothers and Sisters. Their hearts are worth more to me than all the treasures in the World.
God has stated that the heart of a believer is the home of God. My senior brothers and sisters crushed the attack and the cowards were left humiliated, the haters admitted to their true agenda. That victory was indeed a great one. The foundations of the World Wide Web shook that very night, fear was installed into the hearts of the Godless Zionists worldwide plotting against the lovers of God and his beloved Messengers.
I have uncovered Robert Spencer’s true agenda, I have challenged him directly and openly, this coward is probably sitting at home, hiding under his bed. His plot has been uncovered, the simple fact is that his heart beats for the hate of Muslims and for the love of a political movement that goes against his own religion, Zionism. This coward can hide from me and my brothers and sisters, let the whole Word know that this guy is a coward. He challenged us, My senior brother (Lion of God) replied ‘any time, any place’ , Robert Spencer made a run for it. How great is the Glory of our Lord. Truth will overcome falsehood.

ia quotes again
God knows best. What you are doing is insignificant. Why am I here, well the will of God is best, whatever God wills will surely happen, No doubt. I am a member of another forum, well a guy registered, he put his name as Robert Spencer. Well he challenged the God fearing brothers and sisters on the forum, well lets just say that the well structured arguments of my senior brothers and sisters were used to brutally assault the Zionist attack. The attack was completely vanquished and the fellow had to confess as to the what his real purpose was, Such is the glory of Islam. How great is the Glory of the Lord? Well although the forum is new and has a small (but rapidly growing) amount of members I felt that I needed to find out about this chap called Robert Spencer and his true agenda. I discovered that he is really just a Zionist, manipulating gullible Americans into fearing all Muslims. He has tried with utmost care and subtlety to brand Sunni Islam with Wahabi Islam. He has tried to say all the Muslims are the same and are a threat, this is a subtle attempt but I will declare that God bestows victory on those he wishes. Robert Spencer has also manipulated Americans into believing Israel is like the 51st State of America. I actually feel sorry for the guy, from the articles he puts up it is so blatant that he absolutely hates Islam with all his heart. I pity him. We only live once, he should be out enjoying himself, enjoying quality time with his family. We live in a beautiful world. He is just a slave to his ego and Zionism, a political movement that goes against the very essence of Judaism. I really pity the chap.

ia000
You are the one to be pitied,seems you are suffering from Islamlobotomy

Posted by: shiva

at July 31, 2005 12:06 AM

shiva;

how impressed are you by the "bravery" of someone who declares "i'm not afraid of you!"....
on a comment thread, on the internet, safely in his home, anonymously, to a group of equally anonymous posters, sitting in THEIR homes. sort of takes your breath away, doesn't it. rank him right up there with John Wayne, the Fonz, and
Mighty Mouse.

vapid statements meant to provoke anger, to supply him with fresh comments to point to as examples of our brutish, Nazi, infidel nature, the better to discount us, in his little mind.

the internet allows for the gratification of a million Walter Mittys. he's probably unemployed and living in his parents basement, dreaming his little fantasies and reminding himself, "they'll be sorry when I'M caliph".

Posted by: t-ham

at July 31, 2005 7:37 AM

Mo "moderate Muslim" BS, thanks to LGF:

Very much in the spirit of 1a, Saladin,shirk:

Moderate UK Islamic Leader: No Such Thing As Al Qaeda
British police invited the most respected Islamic cleric in Birmingham to join them in a press conference promoting cooperation between Muslims and law enforcement.

They were shocked ... shocked! ... when Sheikh Mohammad Naseem proceeded to call Tony Blair a liar, and said DNA evidence is meaningless, the bombing suspects could have been “innocent passengers,” and there’s no such thing as Al Qaeda. (Hat tip: m.)

The most senior Islamic cleric in Birmingham claimed yesterday that Muslims were being unjustly blamed in the war on terrorism and that the eight suspects in the two bombing attacks on London “could have been innocent passengers”.

Mohammad Naseem, the chairman of the city’s central mosque, called Tony Blair a “liar” and “unreliable witness” and questioned whether CCTV footage issued of the suspected bombers was of the perpetrators. He said that Muslims “all over the world have never heard of an organisation called al-Qa’eda”.

Mr Naseem, who was speaking after police seized Yasin Hassan Omar in Birmingham, delivered his unprompted outburst when he was invited to a press conference with West Midlands police and Birmingham city council to help calm fears of racial or religious tension after the arrest. His comments shocked senior police officers. ...

To the obvious embarrassment of council officials and police standing next to him, Mr Naseem said the Government and security services “were not to be relied upon”.

He said: “Tony Blair has told lies on going to Iraq and in a court of law if a witness has proved to be a liar he ceases to be a reliable witness. So we cannot give our blind trust to the Government. To have that trust it is important that the process of law should be independent, open and transparent. I am also sad that unfortunately the impression has been given that Muslims are to be targeted in this war against terror. There seems to be a directive to target Muslims. Why do we not have an open mind about this?

“Muslim bashing seems to be more earnest than the need for national unity and harmony. Terrorists can be anybody - we will have to see [whether the bombers are Muslims]. The process is not open; the process is not transparent; the process is not independent. I do not have faith in the system as it stands.”

Mr Naseem is one of the most respected Muslims in the city and is considered a moderate. He has regular meetings with the chief constable to discuss religious harmony.

Mr Naseem said that while it was vital that terrorism was stamped out and that there was never any justification for it, the Government had not helped by going to war in Iraq.

Dismissing the Prime Minister’s insistence that the war had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks, he said: “Tony Blair … is not going to be perceived as a reliable witness. His comments could motivate someone to take the law into his own hands. Some people have been caught but I have not seen any evidence. The process of law is not open.”

Asked about the suspects’ DNA being found at the scene of the first attacks, he said: “DNA can match you, but that does not mean you are going to commit a crime. Thousands of youths are passing by and caught on CCTV, so how do you know it is them?”

Thomas h:

Thanks for that, I feel very much the same way. But you say it clearly:

'You guys are shameless.
History's most cruel butchers stealing blodied shirts of dead jews in order to pass themselves for victims. Your people have dignity of grave robbers.
Each time I read a moslem post it brings back the feeling of nausea that overwhelmed me when I tried to read Ququran the first time many years ago.
What a vomit!'

The Nazis knew that they were guilty. The Mohammedans do the same and call themselves "victims", -and get away with it!

How much longer?

Posted by: Terminator

at July 31, 2005 8:12 AM

he's probably unemployed and living in his parents basement, dreaming his little fantasies and reminding himself, "they'll be sorry when I'M caliph".

weak.

Posted by: ia786

at July 31, 2005 9:08 AM

Speech from Hitler, a 'good' Christian?!?!?!

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people"

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."

Posted by: ia786

at July 31, 2005 9:16 AM

"These are or were Catholic countries that expelled Jews;
1012 AD Emperor of Germany expels Jews from Mainz.
1290 AD Expelled from England.
1306 AD Expelled from France.
1483 AD Expelled from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.
1492 AD Expelled from Spain.
1510 AD Expelled from Brandenburg Germany.
1569 AD Pope Pius fifth ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.
1593 AD Expelled from Italy and Bavaria.
1614 AD Expelled from Frankfurt Germany.
1715 AD Pope Pius sixth issues edict against Jews.
1941 AD Expelled from German Reich to Poland.
1942 AD Mass transport of Jews to Belgium and Holland.

According to the book Papal Sins, Garry Wills, pg.13 the Papists had already made up there minds long before Hitler that the Jews must go. The reason being that Trotsky a Jew, with his godless allies in Russia now threatened Catholic Europe, were put together by the Christ Killing, immoral, money grubbing Jews. Pope Pius X1 (1922- 39) who was an active anti-Semite, wept openly in 1938, pg 29. when he understood it was no longer business as usual but a far worse fate planed for the Jews than he imagined. He decided to write a statement to counter what he knew was about to happen, but it was not published and he soon died"

Posted by: ia786

at July 31, 2005 9:18 AM

You're entitled to your own opinion, IA, but using your left hand to pull your own facts out of your colon is inpermissable.

Approved Holidays w/in the SS:

January 30 - Seizure of power
April 20 - Hitler's B-day
May Day
June 21 - Summer Solistice
Nuremburg Rally - September
Harvest (Octoberfest)
November 9 - Anniversery of the Beer Hall Putsch
December 21 - Yule (NOT Christmas)

They were, in essence, more closely related to todays Neo-Pagans than Christianity.

Mayhaps you found a speech -- Hitler gave a great many of those. That being said, these appeals to Christianity were made for political gain, needing the Barvarian Catholics and the Lutherans in the rest of the country. Privately, he had contempt for Catholicism, regering to its "hypocritical priests" and its "satanic superstition." Lutherans, by their dogma, believing "The powers that be are ordained by God." (a quote from St. Peter).

Over time, Hitler began to suborn the church, letting his mask slip. While tolerating religion publicly, he revealed his true feelings in private, saying he would stamp out Christianity in Germany, root and branch, with the belief that one is a Christian or a German and cannot be both.

In the run up to the war, both the Lutheran and Catholic Churches in Germany were bullied and sub-orned, culminating in the June 30, 1934 "Blood Purge," in which, among the dead, were a number of Catholic activists and writers. The silence from the Vatican and the start of efforts to establish their own religion, replacing Christian rites with those that glorified the state.

So, in answer to your clumsy riposte, yes, I will not dispute Hitler gave that speech, just as following a terrorist bombing, Muslims give many pretty speeches. However, on balance, its deeds, not words, that matter. When you boil a frog, you do it slowly, not fast.

As a side note, the volumes I am using here are not some dusty scholarly tome -- they are readily available volumes available in most libraries. One has a lovely shot of several members of Hitler's Muslim SS men, right down to the death's head on their fezzes and the swastika and scimitar of their collar insignia, as they read a pamphlet entitled "Islam und Judentum."

Posted by: Cthulhu

at July 31, 2005 10:04 AM

"Mayhaps you found a speech -- Hitler gave a great many of those. That being said, these appeals to Christianity were made for political gain, needing the Barvarian Catholics and the Lutherans in the rest of the country. Privately, he had contempt for Catholicism, regering to its "hypocritical priests" and its "satanic superstition." Lutherans, by their dogma, believing "The powers that be are ordained by God." (a quote from St. Peter)."

Anyone can say that. He was a Christian, a 'good' Christian if one takes a look at Christian History.

Posted by: ia786

at July 31, 2005 10:21 AM

Cthulhu:

Nothing penetrates a coffe-filter! Shirki has a selective memory, he steals the bloody shirts of the dead Jews and cries: 'Don't shoot, I'am a victim...' Despicable!

But to you, 1a, Shirk, I say this:

It has been done before, and God willing we will not see it happen again. Deportations!

Take all of your tribe back to planet Islam where you can bang your head on the floor and fart towards Mekka as much as you like, but don't insult Britain with your presence...

Posted by: Terminator

at July 31, 2005 10:26 AM

Why is it, IA, that Christians behaving badly is of historic importance, but

If your co-religionists keep this up, it will be you who suffers for it. There shall come a day that the idea will filter down that since the Muslim terrorists care not for whom they kill, why should those who respond to their attacks.

You faintly damn the attack, then complain about the backlash.

Posted by: Cthulhu

at July 31, 2005 9:05 PM

*sigh*

I really hate HTML...

Some of the lines "died."

Why is it, IA, that Christians behaving badly is of historic importance, but Muslims behaving badly, be in the behavior of the Turks in Eastern Europe, the collaberation between Islam and Nazism in the forties, the collaberation between the ex-patriate Nazis and Muslims in the fifties and the like -- all documented historical FACT -- is "weak?"

Posted by: Cthulhu

at July 31, 2005 9:09 PM

ia666
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

David Duke will be proud of you

ia666/David Duke = muslim/nazi defending themselves against the jew

ia666/sisters
You are a liar.
Or better still you bunch of looney liars who go under the name of ia786.You exposed yourselves when you launched a cyber attack my way

Posted by: shiva

at August 1, 2005 5:47 AM