Hopefully there'll be enough room to exhibit the rubble from the Bamiyan sculptures.

Posted by: Doctor Phibes at July 31, 2005 8:08 AM

Doctor Phibes! I was just going to write the same thing!

Posted by: Terminator at July 31, 2005 8:18 AM

More about this here:

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/07/saudi-prince-helps-set-up-islamic-art.html

The decision to create a new department of Islamic art in the Louvre came directly from French President Jacques Chirac, who is said to maintain very good relations with Al-Walid. In a speech last October, President Jacques Chirac proposed the creation of a new department in the Louvre dedicated to Islamic Art. This department, in Chirac’s view, would not only be an instrument of diplomacy but also of interior policy and will “highlight the universal vocation of this museum and will be a living example of cultural dialogue.” Indeed during a period of racial and religious prejudices, the creation of such a department would have an effect on each group’s understanding and perception of the other.

Posted by: Fjordman at July 31, 2005 8:38 AM

Whats the problem here?!?!?

How does this make the French Dhimmis.

The people who have a problem with this must really check their intentions, if I was you I would seriously be worried about myself.

Posted by: ia786 at July 31, 2005 8:41 AM

London Museums have Islamic Art sections, you might want to post the details here. I would highly recommend them.

Posted by: ia786 at July 31, 2005 8:42 AM

On opening day, everyone gets a free etch-a-sketch so they can create their own Islamic art.

Posted by: reset at July 31, 2005 8:55 AM

Karlheinz Stockhausen claims WTC attack is "biggest artwork of all time

Posted by: shiva at July 31, 2005 8:57 AM

The people who have a problem with this must really check their intentions, if I was you I would seriously be worried about myself.

I've no problems wit this... but wait.. Islam and arts?? sumfin doesnt gel in here. Islam and art is like oil and water i.e incompatible. The only "priceless" specimens of Islamic art they used to have at Louvre were ordinary looking calligraphies glorifying allah (some where in the Richelieu wing). No doubt the new room will hold even more of those dull porcelain pots.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at July 31, 2005 8:57 AM

ha ha ha ha

Posted by: ia786 at July 31, 2005 9:19 AM

I can read you like a book

Posted by: ia786 at July 31, 2005 9:19 AM

Some suggestions for the modern art section:

Contemporary islamic art (9/11 style)

Islamic art circa 9/11 pentagon

Islamic art - simple playthings

Art suitable for Islamic wing - the morgue

Art for islamic wing - "Shanksville crator"

Art suitable for Islamic wing - Madrid 3/11

Art suitable for islamic wing - London bus 7/11

Posted by: miira at July 31, 2005 9:21 AM

You have to admit the scope for study is a little limited. I did a search on the V&A site. I found this second on their list, which I think are publications rather than exhibits.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/res_cons/research/research_reports/ninetyfive/books95_96/islam/

Mina and Abü Zaid's bowls.
The search for pattern: carving in medieval Iranian ceramics.
The use of colour in the Ardabil carpet, Surprising geometry of the Ardabil carpet,
and my favourite Ardabil: the early repairs

Sorry ia, compared with a Fra Angelico panorama of saints and angels, or a Velasquez portrait, or the detail of a Lowry, the search for pattern (and the surprise when you find it) does not quite compare.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at July 31, 2005 9:34 AM

Islamic art, simple playthings is poignant. I take it from the title of the jpeg that it is from the Twin Towers? I thought at first it was from one of the mass graves of Iraq or the former Yugoslavia.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at July 31, 2005 9:41 AM

Will she have to wear a burka
http://www.louvre.fr/media/repository/ressources/sources/illustration/atlas/x196image_55439_v2_m56577569830570858.jpg

Are these going to be taken down as they may be considered offenise
http://www.louvre.fr/media/repository/ressources/sources/illustration/atlas/x196image_58879_v2_m56577569830599030.jpg

http://www.louvre.fr/media/repository/ressources/sources/illustration/artsgraphiques/x196image_56082_v2_m56577569830574234.jpg

http://www.louvre.fr/media/repository/ressources/sources/illustration/atlas/x196image_58942_v2_m56577569830599317.jpg

How are the muslims going to cope with this
http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Thumbs/pa/Stories/gospels/lastweek/crucifix/The%20Crucifixion%20by%20Andrea%20Mantegna%20(1431-1506)%20Lo.jpg

NOW THIS IS RIOTIOUS
http://www.louvre.fr/media/repository/ressources/sources/illustration/atlas/image_53156_v2_m565775
69830559499.jpg

Posted by: shiva at July 31, 2005 9:57 AM

Shirki,1a, Saladin, queen of Montparnas:

Just what is "Islamic Art?"

Posted by: Terminator at July 31, 2005 9:58 AM

Sorry the last link should have opened to a pic of Mohammed,the one that caused riot a few years ago in bangla-desh and pakistan

Posted by: shiva at July 31, 2005 10:23 AM

"Sorry ia, compared with a Fra Angelico panorama of saints and angels, or a Velasquez portrait, or the detail of a Lowry, the search for pattern (and the surprise when you find it) does not quite compare."

Maybe.....

Islamic art is alright, as an artist myself I have a western style, I loooooove art museums

Its about having art from different cultures, thats all it is.

Posted by: ia786 at July 31, 2005 10:33 AM

Terminator
Can i answer please

the art of lying
the art of deceit
the art of pedophilia
the art of beheading
the art of of using two stones
the art of destroying art
the art of making false claims

the art of of not suppling links when requested to suport claims they make,like ia666,s claim
You seem to think very highly of Robert Spencer. As I have stated before (You may have missed this).This Zionist sent his chums to a forum to attack me and my beloved Brothers and Sisters.
You seem to think very highly of Robert Spencer. As I have stated before (You may have missed this). This Zionist sent his chums to a forum to attack me and my beloved Brothers and Sisters.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007423.php
ia666 wheres the link
Or maybe Robert can supply it

Posted by: shiva at July 31, 2005 10:50 AM

Right Shiva!

This guy is not only a pest, but he is really a most despicable character.

The most freightening thing is that they are (almost) ALL like that!

You would know!

Posted by: Terminator at July 31, 2005 10:56 AM

There is already a section in the Louvre dedicated to ... er .. Islamic art, and, apart from the odd nose pierced 'art' student cooing with admiration at yet one more decorated teacup, it is always the least visited section of the museum.

If the French authorities seem to think islamic art is a wondrous addition to human culture, the tourists, many of whom only have a couple of hours to spend in the Louvre will choose to fill their retinas, hearts and minds with Leonardo, Velasquez, Turner, Raphaelo, El Greco, Vermeer, Van Eyck, David, Delacroix, Ingres, Giotto, Angelico, Mantegna, Caravaggio, Titiano, Botticelli, Rubens and others beofre heading off to the sculpure and pre Islmamic persian and babylonian works. If there is still time after that it will be spent at the gift store followed by a relaxing coffee.

By the way, an anagram of "Mohammedan Art" is "Nomad Harem Mat", which is pretty much all you will find in the new multi million islamic wing of the Louvre.

Posted by: Sebastien at July 31, 2005 11:10 AM

Sebastien
What frightens me is that the muslim will be offended by all the great works you mentioned and demand that they be taken down and burnt in the true islamic fashion

Posted by: shiva at July 31, 2005 11:33 AM

I found the following painting of Mohammed in a website dedicated to art from Turkey, next to a painting of Mary.

http://www.historylink101.net/turkey/paintings.htm

Posted by: Zico at July 31, 2005 11:40 AM

shiva

What frightens me is that the muslim will be offended by all the great works you mentioned and demand that they be taken down and burnt in the true islamic fashion

It is inevitable that suicide-bombers will one day attack a centre of culture like the Louvre primarily not to kill but to destroy the fruits of our civilisation - to act as the true iconoclasts that they are, to make that statement, the same way that they destroyed art in all the military expansions that they undertook, and more recently when they destroyed the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.

Posted by: Zico at July 31, 2005 11:44 AM

The question 'what is Islamic art?' must be taken up and considered critically. Islam is not a culture. Islam is not an artistic genre or period. One could try to speak of 'Christian art', for instance, but this designation, and all others like it, are awkward insofar as they do not refer to a specific genre that has any artistic significance.

So what is 'Islamic art'?

Posted by: JTF at July 31, 2005 11:51 AM

And if Jerry Falwell, Pat Robinson, and other assorted Christian fundamentalists, contributed 17 million Euros for a 'Christian art' (let's say assorted devotional art by 'Christian artists') wing, would the Lourvre accept the donation, contract architects, and get to work? Or would they object on cultural and artistic grounds?

Posted by: JTF at July 31, 2005 11:54 AM

I remember the BBC enthusiastically plugging this upcoming islamic fart center. Poor chap, the BBC anchor actually squirmed reading the paid paens off the teleprompter "..showcase Islam as a religion of peace, tolerance and forgiveness...".
I mean, even BBC anchor people know ordinary folks don't buy this BS anymore.

Posted by: voletti at July 31, 2005 12:02 PM

There is already a section in the Louvre dedicated to ... er .. Islamic art, and, apart from the odd nose pierced 'art' student cooing with admiration at yet one more decorated teacup, it is always the least visited section of the museum.

4,000 sq metres dedicated to calligraphy and designs.

I wonder if Prince Walid will use that space to save the famous Iranian miniatures that the Mullahcracy of Iran is in the process of destroying.

Muhammad forbade the representation of the human form, considered it idolatry, the Saudis are disciples of Tamiyyah and Wahhab and are even more restrictive.

So I wonder what is going to be used to fill up the 4,000 Square meters.

I've been told there is a Museum in Riyadh,which even has dinosaur skeletons. I wonder what the Arabic inscription says about them.. perhaps something like These are the giants as mentioned in the Qur'an. But this is hearsay from a shill for the Saudis.

Here is what to expect Riyadh Museum for History and Archaeology

The Riyadh Museum, to the west of Al-Bathaa, covers the history and archaeology of Saudi Arabia from the Stone Age to early Islam. Islamic architecture is explored, while a separate Ethnographic Hall exhibits clothes, musical instruments, weapons and jewellery.

The museum is divided into eight sections: Man and the Universe, Arabian Kingdoms, Jahiliyyah (Ignorance), The Prophet's Mission, Islam and the Arabian Peninsula, 1st and 2nd Saudi States, Unification, and Hajj and the Two Holy Mosques.

Not much to see from the above description, but ake note, the museum serves the Jihad function of DAWAH. All eight sections are nothing more than Islamic propaganda..Dawah, proslytizing

Posted by: Giaour at July 31, 2005 12:04 PM

I have no objection to studying the art of Muslim countries. I do have an enormous objection to the obvious political intent behind this one. Chirac is lending one of the holy places of Western civilization to Saudi propaganda, however disguised. French politicians ought not to have control over the Louvre, any more than over Notre Dame or Chartres Cathedral or the Grande Chartreuse. Unfortunately, the tradition of French state control says different. However, France was once a great power with a great mind: the likes of Napoleon or De Gaulle could be relied upon to see France in a grand light and to think big thoughts about her. Chirac is a small man with small dreams, who has shrunk his country.

Posted by: Paolo at July 31, 2005 12:24 PM

Art? What they mean to say is all the Artwork that was plundered or vandalised by Islamic invaders.

It is so interesting how the Cajones-less community is willing to bend over trying to please an insatiable monster who will eventually come to destroy France.

I find it simply incredible that these people jsut don't get it. You would think they would have learned their lesson with Hitler, but of course not, they have to negotiate with a foe who now thinks of them as simply cowards.

When I am sitting among muslim colleagues I always listen to their views of Europe, and I see no reason to intervene in such discussion when in fact I am able to hear what is truly in their hearts. They clearly state that the French are cowards and will be easily over-run. Just goes to show you that barbarians will only respect someone who can kick their ass.

Art of Islam? Give me a break, try the Art of Genocide, which they are still getting away with.

-Cheers

Posted by: Gorkhali at July 31, 2005 12:39 PM

Should the last tiny bit of precious space at the Louvre be dedicated to what is dictated not by felt cultural needs, but rather by political or geopolitical considerations? What does Pierre Rosenberg, or what would a thousand other art critics and art historians, living and dead, say about this? Longhi? Pope-Hennessey? Chastel? Bazin? Francis Haskell? Gombrich? The brilliant smiter of the Clumsy Cleaners of the Sistine Chapel and Ilaria del Carretto, Professor James Beck? What would long-dead Wladimir Weidle, writer on Byzantine and Venetian mosaics (ah, what about that -- what about a new wing devoted entirely to Byzantine art, which does not get nearly its due?) who long before the blockbuster shows arrived, expressed doubts even about the legitimacy of reproductions of works of art on postcards?

The French government has done some inexcusable things. There were the barber-pole columns, that retract into the ground at regular intervals, known as "les colonnes de Buren" (after Daniel Buren, who was commissioned by the French state, by the officius Lang himself, to place them right in the cour d'honneeur of the Palais-Royale). There was the TGB (a play on TGV, the superdeduper train service, possibly thebest thing to have been built in France in the last 30 years), or Tres Grande Bibliotheque, the last of pharaonic Mitterrand's projects, that has been so very bad for the books, and for the readrs (see the articles of Patrice Higonnet). And now, in order to assuage the Muslims of France, and to have a reason for pocketing the $20 million (which won't go very far), the French are now willing to sully the whole enterprise of the Louvre, to help convince the public that there is more to "Islamic art" than there is, to make decisions involving the entire Louvre that are based not on artistic criteria -- even if those criteria may be wrong, as in the kinds of crap that with-it curators tell us they genuinely like, so they buy at exorbitant sums, or display from the collections of private, rich philistines who think that Jeff Koons or Tracey whatever her name is are simply mahvelous -- well, this is a case of aesthetic and ethical idiocy, rolled into one.

And one last point.

What constitutes "Islamic art"? Do Persian miniatures, the same kind of Persian miniatures now being destroyed or defaced by the practitioners of Total Islam in the Islamic Republic of Iran, constitute "Islamic art"? What about Indo-Mughal miniatures, painted by and for Muslims, but clearly violating the tenets of Islam? Why should the Forbidden Art, Entartete Kunst, the very art that violates Islam as interpreted by the good doctors of Al-Azhar since time immemorial, be considered "Islamic art" if it violates Islam?

Would a Sassanian rhyton sneak in as part of Persia's "Islamic art"? One hopes not.

What would constitute "Islamic art" other than some calligraphed pottery -- i.e., pottery that was made in various places by non-Muslims, before the arrival of Islam, continued to be made with the same techniques, possibly even by the same incompletely islamized populations, but with the addition of some Arabic script, which may not have anything to do with Islam.

No scultpure, and no depication of living things, is permitted in Islam. If either category of artifact is displayed as Islmaic art, the Louvre's curators, and the Ministry that overseas them, and the government and people of France, will be lying to themselves and to the world about both Islam and art.

Go ahead. Feel free. But for $20 million, and another chance to "make Muslims" happy in France? One more little exercise in the promotion of Muslim Self-Esteem Studies? Is that what the governments of the Western world should now be engaged in, to lessen the "anger" and the "frustration" of the Muslims, by the millions, in their midst? Should we rewrite our own history to, to make sure that Muslims agre given the lion's share of the credit, for the Renaissance, for the Englightenment, for the Industrial Revolution, for god-knows-what?

Here come the clowns. Bring on the clowns.

Posted by: Hugh at July 31, 2005 1:03 PM

what`s the finest art?
from memritv:

7/25/2004 Clip No. 782
Iranian President-Elect Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad: "Is There Art that Is More Beautiful, More Divine, and More Eternal than the Art of Martyrdom?"

The following are excerpts from a speech by Iranian President-Elect Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad, which aired on Iranian Channel 1 on July 25, 2005.

Ahmadi-Nejad: We want art that is on the offensive. Art on the offensive exalts and defends the noble principles, and attacks principles that are corrupt, vulgar, ungodly, and inhuman.

Art reaches perfection when it portrays the best life and best death. After all, art tells you how to live. That is the essence of art. Is there art that is more beautiful, more divine, and more eternal than the art of martyrdom? A nation with martyrdom knows no captivity. Those who wish to undermine this principle undermine the foundations of our independence and national security. They undermine the foundation of our eternity.

The message of the (Islamic) Revolution is global, and is not restricted to a specific place or time. It is a human message, and it will move forward.

Have no doubt... Allah willing, Islam will conquer what? It will conquer all the mountain tops of the world.

Posted by: hobo at July 31, 2005 1:44 PM

shiva,

One of my favorite art styles is Indonesian batik. Can you tell me to what extent currently in Indonesia batik that depicts animal figures (which is not allowed in Islam) is on display and easily purchased? Or is it difficult to find batik with animal motifs now in Indonesia, because of a certain degree of pressure from Islamic controls?

Thanks

Posted by: metaxy at July 31, 2005 2:29 PM

Metaxy's question for Shiva reminds me of this article from the BBC from last year. Which sticks in my mind because I sew and because I rate the very best embroidery, like some of the copes in the V&A, as an art form (probably because I cannot do it).
Leaving aside the casual way the BBC describes the lives of women who never leave the house it is interesting for the observations of the Coptic Christian lady who set up the workshop.

"Perhaps surprisingly, not all the symbols are Islamic.

Leila Neamatalla, a Coptic Christian, remarks on the presence of fish and crosses, which she takes it as a sign that Christianity may have been present in the oasis before the Siwans converted to Islam in the 12th Century.

"But I haven't been able to find any other sign of a Christian presence in the oasis," she admits. "

Of course Christianity was present. Presumably the symbols remained because women's work and women's clothing, inside the home, attracted no interest.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at July 31, 2005 2:45 PM

Islamic art mainly consists of patterns you can find on neckties, underwear, and the inside of sport coats.

But who can turn down Saudi money? OH YEAH, Giuliani can! Three cheers for Rudi!

Posted by: Beagle at July 31, 2005 3:05 PM

How about modern art..

Say a Koran in urine..

Mohammed raping children

Muslims eating pork before going outon their killing sprees..

How about the dome of the rock covered in bacon..

The list is endless...

Posted by: jingoist at July 31, 2005 3:34 PM

"would not only be an instrument of diplomacy but also of interior policy and will “highlight the universal vocation of this museum and will be a living example of cultural dialogue.” Indeed during a period of racial and religious prejudices, the creation of such a department would have an effect on each group’s understanding and perception of the other."

Ah yes, this explains pretty much everything.

Have any of these people,or clowns as a post above rightly calls them, ever stopped to consider precisely how this dialogue between cultures is supposed to take place. Could some 'multiculturalist' please explain the precise mechanism of this and how this leads to the desired outcome?

To date I have not seen or heard of any line of argument based on logic and precise facts that explains this. How did the demented left actually come to their conclusions? Are they really that intellectually primative?

Please see the link below: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1539049,00.html

Is this their idea of a rational argument?

JV

Posted by: jv at July 31, 2005 4:11 PM

Nah, Zico:

That guy in the picture is not the dirty "prophet Mo"-

He didn't look that good. He dyed his beard with henna.

Guess he looked more like this:

http://islamcomicbook.com/lyrics3.htm

Posted by: Terminator at July 31, 2005 4:19 PM

"Islamic art mainly consists of patterns you can find on neckties..."
-- from a posting above

For his "historic" trip to Israel Anwar "Saint" Sadat wore a tie that had as its repeated motif lots of teeny-tiny swastikas. The sole person to comment upon this was Paul Eidelberg, who not only wrote a scathing article about Sadat (not "Saint" Sadat of the American media, but the real Sadat, the one imprisoned by the British during World War II for pro-Nazi activites, the Sadat who treated the Muslim Brotherhood benignly -- and look what it got him) but is aksi the author of an acute book on the Founding Fathers and the Constitution.

Swastikas on the tie so carefully selected for the visit, with all of Israel waiting, so hopefully, so innocently, for the guest who would arrive, and make a little Kantian (Zur ewigen Frieden) Permanent Peace when Islam insists, really insists on Permanent War (der ewige Krieg) between Believers and Infidels.

Not a single Israeli journalist, political figure, or ordinary citizen even bothered to comment on those swastikas clearly visible on Sadat's carefully-chosen tie -- a tie which signalled to some in the Arab world that, whatever he would say in order to get back the entire Sinai, however much he would smile to get Egypt on the American dole, his heart and mind remained in the right place.

Just look at the crude message semaphored by that cravatte.

Posted by: Hugh at July 31, 2005 8:52 PM

JV,

"How did the demented left actually come to their conclusions? Are they really that intellectually primative?"

In the past 50 years, they have conquered the West. PC Leftism rules the waves, my friend. We are the tiny minority, the lunatic fringe.

Posted by: metaxy at July 31, 2005 9:00 PM

I have a good idea - why don't they have a picture of Charles Martel pissing on Mohammed??? I'm sure there is an artist who could do it???

Maybe it would stir up a bit of French Patriotism - if such a thing still exists.....

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at July 31, 2005 11:01 PM

Muslim art?

Why, muslim art is cultural. . . meaning, well, political. And once it is installed, it will be like the camel's nose in the tent. You will never, ever get it out. No matter how much one might protest about a piece or three, the muzzies will raise a bigger stink, and they will receive their dhimmi due.

Some of the "art" might even be western pieces that show the west in a bad light. So who is to protest then? Of course, all of the learned and cultured and urbane critics will appear for the opening and write witty, approving, admiring pieces just like those idiots always do. Total dhimmi. Total PC.

Posted by: texan at August 1, 2005 12:52 AM

Veiled Venus
By Sher Khan
MohammadJamal al Din takes a deep breath before he finishes the last stitch. He is a tailor by profession and faced no problem making a burqa for this marble statue.The 61/2 ft tall sculptor was the most recognizable works of art from theancient world. The statue, with its elegantly twisted pose and missing armssymbolized the goddess of beauty and love. Former citizens of this country proudly named this beautiful lady,Venusde Milo. Current Islamic Government has decided to bring all statues of thiscountry in one place and blow them into pieces. Problem arose when Mullah officials noticed the graceful body of Venus is half-naked. They ordered Mohammad Jamal al Din to make a burqa and cover up the whole body ofVenusto ensure Muslims are not offended by seeing her unsheathed body while she is being moved.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SherKhan40829.htm

This is not very far fetched. So throw away all the literature and arts and get ready cos here they come. Chirac had better make quranic studies compulsory so his people can adapt to the new culture.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at August 1, 2005 12:55 AM

@leavingtheleft: People should be aware, although a work of fiction it is prophetic if people do not take heed to this danger that has stirred the oceans.

I was in Delhi, India in 2003, at a conference. My girlfriend, at the time, and I decided to go see the Qutab Minar (Qutab's Tower), since my father told me that there are ruins of a Hindu temple all around it, the tower was built during the reign of Prithviraj Chauhan III, whose daughter would climb the tower to pray to the Sun. My father further instructed us that if you look at the Tower you will see how the muslims vandalised it since it does not have Islamic symbolism.

Well, as you would have it, there I am, the tower is surrounded by what used to be an ancient Hindu temple, lotus motifs, statues of Gandharvas (Angelic beings who play heavenly music, akin to Angels with harps in western Christianity) that were damaged, and Islamic tombs in the middle of what would have been the prayer area for Hindus. The Tower itself, was vandalised, and besides what my father had told me, I recall my North American professors in University undergraduate Indian studies courses telling us of how so many monuments in India are associated to the muslims, yet they are simply Hindu structures which were vandalised.

To top it off, the eunuch Government of India has a plaque stating that Qutab-ud-din Aibak built the tower, where as there is no mosque attached to the structure. And to add insult to injury, absolutely no mention of the obvious Hindu temple that was destroyed that happens to surround the tower, along with the famous Iron pillar that to this day has not rusted (a technological wonder of Hindu metallurgy). However, no mention of the temple ruins or the desecrated artwork. God damn barbarians, and they have the nerve to claim themselves as an advanced civilisation, they are nothing but theives.

Anyways, you can imagine how pissed my girlfriend and I were. We immediately went down the road, bought a few beers, put it in my backpack, went and sat on the Islamic tombs, cracked open three cold ones, toasted one another. One beer for her, one for me and she poured the third on the tombs, too bad we didn't have some bacon.

-Cheers

Posted by: Gorkhali at August 1, 2005 1:27 AM

@leavingtheleft: People should be aware, although a work of fiction it is prophetic if people do not take heed to this danger that has stirred the oceans.

I was in Delhi, India in 2003, at a conference. My girlfriend, at the time, and I decided to go see the Qutab Minar (Qutab's Tower), since my father told me that there are ruins of a Hindu temple all around it, the tower was built during the reign of Prithviraj Chauhan III, whose daughter would climb the tower to pray to the Sun. My father further instructed us that if you look at the Tower you will see how the muslims vandalised it since it does not have Islamic symbolism.

Well, as you would have it, there I am, the tower is surrounded by what used to be an ancient Hindu temple, lotus motifs, statues of Gandharvas (Angelic beings who play heavenly music, akin to Angels with harps in western Christianity) that were damaged, and Islamic tombs in the middle of what would have been the prayer area for Hindus. The Tower itself, was vandalised, and besides what my father had told me, I recall my North American professors in University undergraduate Indian studies courses telling us of how so many monuments in India are associated to the muslims, yet they are simply Hindu structures which were vandalised.

To top it off, the eunuch Government of India has a plaque stating that Qutab-ud-din Aibak built the tower, where as there is no mosque attached to the structure. And to add insult to injury, absolutely no mention of the obvious Hindu temple that was destroyed that happens to surround the tower, along with the famous Iron pillar that to this day has not rusted (a technological wonder of Hindu metallurgy). However, no mention of the temple ruins or the desecrated artwork. God damn barbarians, and they have the nerve to claim themselves as an advanced civilisation, they are nothing but theives.

Anyways, you can imagine how pissed my girlfriend and I were. We immediately went down the road, bought a few beers, put it in my backpack, went and sat on the Islamic tombs, cracked open three cold ones, toasted one another. One beer for her, one for me and she poured the third on the tombs, too bad we didn't have some bacon.

-Cheers

Posted by: Gorkhali at August 1, 2005 1:29 AM

metaxy
A little info
Batik is generally thought of as the most quintessentially Indonesian textile. Motifs of flowers, twinning plants, leaves buds, flowers, birds, butterflies, fish, insects and geometric forms are rich in symbolic association and variety; there are about three thousand recorded batik patterns.

The patterns to be dyed into the cloth are drawn with a canting, a wooden 'pen' fitted with a reservoir for hot liquid wax. In batik workshops, circles of women sit working at clothes draped over frames, and periodically replenish their supply of wax by dipping their canting into a central vat. Some draw directly on the cloth from memory; others wax over faint charcoal lines.
This method of drawing patterns in wax on fine machine-woven cotton was practiced as a form of meditation by the female courtiers of Central Java; traditionally, batik tulis (tulis means 'write' in Indonesian) is produced by women.
In the 19th century, the application of waxed patterns with a large copper stamp or cap saved the batik industry from competition with cheap printed European cloth. The semi-industrial nature of cap work allows it to be performed by men. Batik motifs recall characters from the Hindu epics, plants, animals, sea creatures and gamalan melodies.
Chinese and European influences are evident in the design and color combinations of where bright colors and filigree-like birds, flowers, and trees all form part of the pattern.The Chinese contribution to batik design may be seen in the flower and bird motifs, border patterns, and in use of pink, yellow and blue.Also, Dutch and Eurasian women favoured European floral bouquets, complete with birds, butterflies and bees on their batik designs.
The introduction of Islam, which forbade depicting lifelike pictures, led to stylized patterns without representation of human of animal forms.The Arab population has generally favoured patterns based on patola designs from India. They also prefer designs featuring green, a sacred color in the muslim world.
One thing I have noticed.When I first came to Indonesia,the money depicted animals and flowers,now to today they have been replaced with guys wearing islamic hats(black coffee filters)and Jihadi holding swords.The banknotes have been Islamized.
Also I see a great number of trucks with portraits of OBL or Saddam airbrushed on the back.Car stickers proclaiming "Islam = Peace" or
"Army of Islam" "Moslim Power"
I would like to mention here that in the towm I am at present more than 40 mosques have started being built or reconstructed,based on what I see it would be an understatement that today there are at least 15-20,000 being built or reconstructed on the island of java alone. Compare this to Aceh,where people are still living in tent and make shift homes supplied by infedel suckers.
NOW
Saudi billionaire Prince Al-Walid Bin Talal has donated a multi-million-euro gift to finance the construction of a new Islamic art wing in the Paris-based Louvre Museum to show off the bright face of the Muslim world.
And the Saudis are today pumping millions imto the Mandiri Bank Indonsia to Finance the building and reconstruction of these mosques
It would be better for the Louvre to tell Saudi billionaire Prince Al-Walid Bin Talal stick his money and really off the bright face of the Muslim world by constructing homes for the vicims of the tsusami,or feeding all the starving muslims in Niger.
Out of a moral aspect,should like a NY mayor,say no to the donation

Posted by: shiva at August 1, 2005 2:54 AM

Out of a moral aspect the louvre,should like a NY mayor,say no to the donation
If not the Louvre should be well avoided

Posted by: shiva at August 1, 2005 3:09 AM

Thanks shiva, that was very informative and interesting. I've always wondered why Muslims seem to have no problem with portraits of Saddam or the Ayatollah Khomeini, or as you mentioned, faces on money. I thought all living figures were forbidden in any representation?

Posted by: metaxy at August 1, 2005 3:25 AM

metaxy
Other traditional artforms that is in the danger zone is tattooing and body piercing
I was stopped from flying from Bali to Jakarta because I had a tattoo on my arm,and I refused to cover it
I was told that the tatto would offend muslims at jarkarta.
I was going to Jakarta to place orders for a lot of handicraft.Instead I flew to Bangkok and placed the orders there
At the moment I am closing down a factory and moving all my production to Thialand for several reasons.One is the Corby Case,another is I am not happy giving employment to people whose idiology is based on hate.
I would like to see a total world boycot of all product from Islamic nation
This you may not like because of your love of Indonesian batik,but there are many other areas of art which are equally fasinating.Myself I am fasinated by beads,just google Lampwork paperwieghts and open up some of the sites there WOW!!!
By the way,I have a collection of batik from Sri-lanka and India,which I prefer.

Posted by: shiva at August 1, 2005 4:49 AM

Gorkhali: This might be of interest. There are, as you say, numerous cases of this `appropriation` by the muslims. After all their cult beliefs are based on `appropriation`.

TAJ MAHAL IS A HINDU TEMPLE
http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/tajmahal.html

Was the Taj Mahal a Vedic Temple? The Photographic Evidence
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm

Posted by: hutchrun at August 1, 2005 6:29 AM

gorkhali:

You might find this interesting:
Religious Conversion with Sword
http://www.kashmir-information.com/ConvertedKashmir/Chapter14.html

http://zafarnama.com/

Posted by: hutchrun at August 1, 2005 6:45 AM

"The Riyadh Museum, to the west of Al-Bathaa, covers the history and archaeology of Saudi Arabia from the Stone Age to early Islam"

I don't understand this phrase. Is there a difference between the stone age and early islam? Between the stone age and modern islam?

What art will be displayed? Decapitations?

Posted by: restitutor orbis at August 1, 2005 7:37 AM

@hutchrun: Thank you for the links. The Taj Mahal aspect I did know about, and I have been there to see it with my own eyes. It was a Hindu temple, and at that time I wasn't a medical student, I was a student of Soutn Asian Studies, so my professor had brought up the issue once during a lunch meeting to discuss my thesis on the Rajputs (coming from a Rajput family, naturally I wished to write about my people spread across India).

When I went on my next trip to India, I discussed the situation with some of my cousins upon arriving. One of them went with me and began pointing out all the markings. Believe me, it was a mixture of shock and disgust.

Kashmir, we all know a bit about, my family is very closely linked with this issue.

The zafarnama and http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm links are definitely something I will look into with keen interest. Thank you again.

-Cheers

Posted by: Gorkhali at August 1, 2005 1:44 PM

shiva,

I commend you for making such a major move on the basis of principle (a good principle, at that).

As far as batik goes, I suppose I could only collect the ones that have Life in them (we all know Muslims hate life), animals, etc. I'll also check out the Indian and Ceylonese batiks, and the lampwork paperweights, thanks

Posted by: metaxy at August 1, 2005 2:03 PM

Gorkhali-

desecrated holy sites? gravestones on holy sites? damage to Hindu religious items?

nothing new here- its business as usual:

When the Caliphs ruled Jerusalem they:

1.turned the street in front of the Western Wall into a garbage dump- it got so bad that the nearby gate from which the garbage and waste was thrown was coined Dung Gate- where its still used today to enter/exit the Temple Mount- to get to. . .the Al Aksa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock - the real Dung.

2. sealed up the Golden Gate with bricks in eastern Jerusalem thru which Elijah is to enter heralding the messiah- to somehow prevent Judaism from experiencing its own "End of Days"

3. created a (Muslim) cemetary just beyond the Golden Gate (in Silwan) also to impede Elijah from entering the city

How about some modern examples:
4. (Also outside Jerusalem)Taking Jewish tombstones and using them to make roads (the Jordanians before 1948)

5 Recent desecration of Joseph's tomb in Shechem (oops, Nablus) by destroying the grave and burning the Torah scrolls there

6. (Insert your religion's violation here)

The Muslims are a very patient people, and will wait and wait and wait until their opponents make a misstep, then pounce.. . .Sharon leaving the Gaza is not just bad b/c it will become a lauching ground for terror (above what it is already), but an open highway for Al Queda into Israel proper.

What happens to Israel is a barometer for the rest of the world. Unfortunately.

Posted by: ZionLion at August 2, 2005 4:17 AM

@ZionLion:

Believe me, I know, it never surprised me that in my circle of friends, from all cultures, different ethnic communities, regardless of any other factors, the one thing we all agreed on was that Islam is the greatest evil that has ever existed.

Never has any one culture done more damage to every corner of the globe like Islam has, it is incredible. Almost every advanced culture has suffered in one way or another. Every continent has been touched (except for the mighty Penguins, I think they defeated the Islamic invasion of Antartica back in the days).

And to top it off, they deny everything, thats the icing on the cake. Its one thing to brag and gloat about it in history books, since they thought they were going to conquer the world, but then they forgot that there is a God and that God's name sure as hell ain't Allah. Allah was the Moon-god if I am not mistaken.

Anyways, the point here is that if they truly believed in an Almighty, then you've got to wonder whether it has ever crossed their minds why they haven't been successful yet? They talk about the supremacy of Allah, but maybe even Allah can't stand them, and perhaps Allah isn't going to give them 70-odd hooras (whatever) when they blow themselves up, instead they get to watch "La Cage Aux Folles" for eternity and are forced to eat bacon. Perhaps Allah is so sick of them, jumping around the Cube, kissing the black stone (which happens to be a Shivalinga as far as I am concerned and kissing a rock btw is idol worship), bending over 5 times a day so that you can smell the ass in front of you, claiming the world is flat (oh yes, there is the enlightened Islamic science at work, NASA eat your heart out). If I were Allah, I honestly would seperate myself from these psychos, its ruining his image.

And honestly, I know as a Hindu the muslims would love to wipe my people out, but seriously, they have this OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) when it comes to the Jews, its incredible. They have this sort of "penis envy" (for a lak of a better example) with the Jews, and then to top that off they claim Abraham, Moses and all the Jewish Prophets are Muslim. They so easily dismiss historical chronological order. Lets not even get into the Jesus issue and muslims, then it sounds like they are al on acid or something.

To make matters worse, they try and claim in Nepal, India and Pakistan that Mohound was prophecised in the Bhavishyavani, Srimad Bhagvatam and thus he is the Tenth Incarnation of Vishnu, that is pathetic.

Islam has made the Nazis look like Kindergarten, the Inquisition look like a theme park and genocide a household name. It legitimises pedophilia, rape, subjugation of women, religious persecution, ethnic cleansing, etc, etc.

The only thing that Islam can credit itself for truly is making great slaves out of its non-Arab muslims population. Truly they have the art of brainwashing down pat.

And once again: The world is flat? Give me a break, and this is the culture that had science? Whatever. (ROFL)

I know I babbled on, but believe me, this issue really gets to me.

Posted by: Gorkhali at August 3, 2005 5:29 AM