A prison sentence seems appropriate for people who hate us so much they can't bear to let us see their faces. Either that, or a one-way ticket back to wherever they came from.

Posted by: Doctor Phibes at July 31, 2005 8:16 AM

Those who hide their features from the public -including through wearing the Islamic burqa - also face punishment.
pay-back
Reminds me of the time I could not board a flight to jakarta be because I was wearing a sleeve-less T-shirt
Hope they follow through

Posted by: shiva at July 31, 2005 8:28 AM

The first test of this awakening to reality will be when the Occiophobes (Western-hating muslims) start making terror threats over these new laws and the Italians actually arrest, prosecute, imprison or deport. Hopefully this is more than rhetoric and will be implemented.

Posted by: PCKills! at July 31, 2005 8:48 AM

Does this law call for a ban on all inbound Muslim immigration? Does this law call for expelling without appeal all Muslim immigrants not citizens of Italy? Does this law call for the stripping of citizenship of Muslims that are suspected of promoting, sympathizing with or supporting groups that are belligerent to the State?

No? Then this is just another law treating symptoms and not fighting the disease.

Posted by: reset at July 31, 2005 8:53 AM

Reset: first learn something about the geography of Italy, then open your mouth. Oh, and it might help to acquire a brain, too. You are the kind of clown who is always disapproving of what others do and always has a better idea - that no sane man would conceive. You miserable prat, Italy has 6000 miles of coastline on the Mediterranean, an open gate to people from the sea which nobody can close. On the other side are Arabs, in case you were not aware of this small fact. To demand that no Arabs be seen in Italian cities makes about as much sense as to demand that no Mexicans should be seen in Laredo, Texas. I have no patience with donkeys of your kind, who seem to think that there is an easy, brutal and stupid solution to every problem if only we stop trying to make sense of the problems we actually have to face. Incidentally, those who read my posts on this and related sites will know that I have no great respect for the current Italian government; but Minister Pisanu is a good man, a former cop who knows his job, and I have confidence in him. You, on the other hand, do not know enough to have a right to judge his actions. So shut up.

Posted by: Paolo at July 31, 2005 9:05 AM

A law against covering the face should be re-enacted in the UK as well. In the 18th century it was a crime to be on a beach with the face covered. It was only the beach so far as I can remember (from reading, not from experience - I am not that old) and was intended to combat smuggling which was widespread then.
Many shopping centres have brought in a ban on hoodies and caps, young boys (Usually boys, and usually young but there have been exceptions) loitering menacingly with their faces obscured by hoods pulled up over their baseball caps. There was a bit of a grumble but it seems to have been accepted. It has been a requirment for a long time in many shops and offices, especially banks, for motorcyclists to remove their helmets before entering. And they (nearly typed we there, despite it being some years since my husband had his machine) do so without dermur.
How can police be expected to identify a wrongdoer (and it need not be terrorism, shoplifting is prevalent) if that person is wearing a black cloak with her face covered, identical to all the other women of her click. I saw two such on the tube on Friday, they are literally ashamed to show their faces.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at July 31, 2005 9:08 AM

In Belgium a Muslim woman was recently fined for wearing a veil covering her face. In Holland we have a law as well that says you can't cover your face. However, for some reason not one Muslim has been fined yet for wearing a veil. I hope that will change, already a store was robbed by two women decked out in full Muslim garb.

Posted by: Leveller at July 31, 2005 9:22 AM

Easy Paolo!

I spend a lot of time in Italy and I can't help notice the ever increasing numbers of Nigerians, Ghana's, and Senegalese. These guys usually peddle anything from sunglasses to fake designer handbags, but I doubt that they come to Italy by leaky boats. Actually, I see them regularly in Malpensa or Rome Airports, from where they seem to commute to their homelands.
Al Vuolo!

The situation with Arabs or North African Mohammedan Immigration to Italy doesn't seem to have the numbers of France, where you can see them even in the most remote villages in AlsaceLorraine where my family has some of its roots.
Is there still the same problem with Albanians?

Of course it is almost impossible to keep them entirely out. But there is also a general perception that no government has done much to keep illegal immigration in check.

In some cases this is also a good thing. I know personally many
people who are using (illegal) workers from Poland, Rumania and
also Albania. It helps keeping labour prices in check and it helps these poor people, who, as long as they work, do not go around stealing or claim welfare like the Mohammedan parasites ...

Posted by: Terminator at July 31, 2005 9:24 AM

Paolo, I have never attacked you and insulted you.

Why is taking measures to control immigration insane?

Australia is endless coastline and they are actively discussing stopping any further Muslim immigration in their major newspapers. Granted they are nowhere near as close to Muslim countries like Italy and do not have Muslims coming in small boats like Italy.

Immigration laws in Europe are all about protecting the immigrant and asylum seeker. Endless appeals, all kinds of rights. It's suicide to me. The US is just as bad.

If you live in Italy, I can understand your frustration, but I believe, in the future, laws that would be considered 'insane' today will become reality.

Legislation like banning all Muslim immigration are going to be tough to discuss, much less pass, but as this war continues, the harsh reality that a Fifth Column has invaded the West and is destroying the West from inside will be realized. That is why I want these measures to be 'out there' to start discussions on what will it take to stave off the relentless march of Islam.

I would hope we can still be amicable to each other on these boards. Defeating Islam will require everyone to work together toward that goal.

Posted by: reset at July 31, 2005 10:13 AM

Defeating Islam will require everyone to work together toward that goal. Posted by: reset

Do you think that you are working towards defeating Islam, by singing to the choir?

Does any JW or DW think they are contributing anything towards the salvation of western culture and freedom by ranting and pounding the chest in front of the choir?

I think not. Too many of the comments posted are irrational vents, too many suggestions are unrealistic and would require an Adolph Hitler/Joseph Stalin/Ayatollah Khameini or King Fahd.

Venting,preaching, emotional comments are not helpful at all.

We have no idea who reads these comments, but the fact is that the comments reflect on the maturity, mindset and mentality of those of us who are aware of and concerned about the threat Islam poses to western culture.

Irrational, religious, preaching, threatening, stupid comments are counterproductive and present a negative image. In fact too many of the posters evidence the same mentality and exuses as those whom they hate and fear.

It's like watching two tribes of chimps, jumping up and down and snarling at each other.

Let me so presumptious as to suggest that unless you have something constructive to add, that you hold your emotions in check (I thought it was the Arabs that were emotional), and if you comment,just add to the discussion with information, or kudo's.

Like the following: Outlawing the Burka, Hijab, or hooded sweat shirts is a necessary step, although civil libertarians (and I am one) will be alarmed.

Nuri as Said, the Prime Minister of Iraq, under Prince Faisal II, in the 1950's, tried to flee from a coup, by donning that Darth Vader outfit (the Chador) that you see Iraqi women wear. He probably even wore a jilbab (the Chador with the face covered except for the eyes), but was caught on the streets.

Apparently the Arabs can "read" someone who is dressed like Darth Vader and tell the difference between a man and woman. But westerners can't.

The Abaya/Chador/Jilbab is a perfect disquise for a terrorist either fleeing from police or on the way to commit an act.

During the Algerian revolt against the French, the FLN used women (who weren't even wearing these outfits) as couriers and gun smugglers, because the French being gentleman would not frisk or inspect them, (and of course the Muslims would scream "disrespect and defilation of women" if they did).

The same is happening in Iraq today.

Anyway it is a tough call. I'm a civil libertarian, and civil liberties are important, without civil liberties, there are no freedoms, and such a society becomes indistinguishable from the enemy.

Without civil liberties, there is no economic activity, health or growth (look at Muslim countries today, Shari'a is the antithesis of civil liberties, and they are all welfare cases).

Yet at the same time, we can't let these freedoms be abused. The freedom to move my fist stops at your nose.

What I'm saying is ramp down the rhetoric, the rants, the vents, the absurdities and belligerent language.. it serves no purpose, it is an embarassment, it is actually counterproductive.

If you have anything to say, let it be additive, constructive, informative or shed light on alternative solutions, or problems not perceived otherwise.

In truth, I spend more time on other forums, discussing "true Islam", the Islam of intolerance and dhimmitude, and trying to refute the lies and obfuscations of the Muslims and dhimmi's, I don't see JW or DW posters on these forums, because one gets a lot of crap, and has to be strong enough, sharp enough and intelligent enough to respond to the crap you recieve.

Rather you vent and preach to the choir because you have no arguments, just vents, and you think you are achieving something by singing to the choir.

If anyone in the press or government peruses this website and reviews the comments, they most definitely come away with a negative opinion of the intelligence of the posters and the people who are attracted to this site.

On the chance that people of import and influence peruse the site, then comments should provide insight, solid and new information, a fresh and new perspective of the problem, and perhaps viable and new solutions.

Follow the lead of Rebeccas and Hugh. If you want to rant, then follow the lead of DC Watson.

Most of you guys are so out of touch with reality, because all you have heard is your own voices, that you actually believe that the problem is with leftists and liberals, the "MSM". I got news for you, if you get out more often, you might find Right Wing Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists and even Baptists that are sympathetic to and thus in alliance with the Mohammadans.

I certainly do, I argue with and try to educate them with them daily.. and it is frustrating because inevitably the Muslims and their mafia, will try to disrupt the conversation with aggressive inanities and accusations. There are lots of tactics available to change the subject and to negate the message by attacking the source.

Posted by: Giaour at July 31, 2005 11:13 AM

As Billy Idol sang long ago in a slightly different context:

Your eyes without a face
Got no human grace
Your eyes without a face
Such a human waste

Posted by: materialguy at July 31, 2005 11:24 AM

reset,

Australia is next door to Indonesia, population 200 million, the most populous muslim nation on Earth.

Posted by: sonshiya at July 31, 2005 11:27 AM

Why is stopping Muslim immigration not a valid tactic? Is it just as unworthy as profiling, another politically incorrect tactic? Wars always require curtailing civil liberties.

I am not just sitting around posting insane, inane ideas. Ideas like stopping Muslim immigration to the West are valid. Not politically correct for now. That will change.

I agree that the Christian faiths have been snookered by Islam. I recently spoke to a pastor who I happened to meet through a friend and he was totally ignorant of the history of Islam, what a dhimmi is, what taqiyya is. He had never read any part of the Quran.

I am working on a site about infiltration in America. I write letters to people of influence. I speak to everyone who agrees with me that Islam is suspect and direct them to information that confirms their suspicions. I am actively pursuing getting our local libraries to buy books that confront Islam rather than adore it.

I am doing a lot more than preaching to the choir.

Posted by: reset at July 31, 2005 11:38 AM

Reset:
Tosh. The Italian immigration law was enacted by the current government and it is anything but welcoming - all the immigrants' groups hate it. The prohibition on face masks and coverings is already on the statute book and only needs reinforcing. And African immigrants certainly do come across the Mediterranean in leaky boats -every day of the week. The Italian navy is kept constantly busy stopping the ones that float and rescuing the ones that sink (which happens every week, with hundreds of casualties a time). In case anyone wanted to say anything, most of the people who are rescued are then sent home, unless a good case for asylum can be proven. But the effort is monstrous: the south coasts of Italy are lined with detention camps and refugee facilities, and still as many illegals get through as are taken. The airports have diddly squat to do with it: Africans - not just muslims, but Christians and animists too - simply cross the Sahara on the old caravan routes and fetch up in the old pirate harbours of North Africa, where an apparently inexhaustible supply of unseaworthy old tubs is waiting to take them to Italy or Spain. Now do you begin to understand what the problem is? And why police measures (of which we have taken plenty - as I said, the current Interior Minister is a good man) cannot stop the flood? You find a way to stop hundreds of millions of people moving, if you think you can.

Posted by: Paolo at July 31, 2005 11:43 AM

Sonshiya, I am aware of that. But I think any immigrants from Indonesia have a much more harrowing trip in the open ocean between Indonesia and Australia, especially in a small boat, than immigrants crossing the relatively short distance from Africa to Italy across the Mediterranean.

Posted by: reset at July 31, 2005 11:44 AM

Paolo, first you make the prospect for opportunity in Italy discouraging. You eliminate asylum appeals. You expedite the return of all illegal immigrants with no appeals, whether caught on initial entry, or caught in raids in your cities. My understanding is that of the estimated 1.5 million Muslims in Italy, only 10% or about 150,000 have Italian citizenship.

The US has terrible illegal immigration problems as well. Fortunately, most of our illegal immigrants (Mexican and South American) are not Muslims.

All of the West has major immigration issues. Politically incorrect solutions are taboo for now. But it will change. When the French Muslims burn Paris to the ground, maybe they will not be so politically taboo.

Posted by: reset at July 31, 2005 11:55 AM

In normal times, its easy to play pious adherence to civil liberties etc. Who here doesn't support civil liberties after all?

The problem I think Reset alludes to is that these are not 'normal' times. An entire civilizational structure is under daily, unrelenting, banal (as in the 'banality of evil') attack through demographic conquest.

Now you can sing paens to civil liberties and watch the entire ship sink forever (albeit slowly) or gauge the increasing urgency in the calls to strong action (or 'rants' as the more sophisticated here might prefer to allude to them) and know that something has fundamentally changed in the west's appetite to talk and act tough in the interest of its own survival.

And reset, I totally agree with your reasoning that personal attacks on fellow anti-jihadists ("Fool!", "Shut up!") does nothing for the anti-jihad cause.

Have a nice day, all.

Posted by: voletti at July 31, 2005 11:56 AM

Voletti:
I had enough of individuals who insult my country and government just in order to parade their machismo and without knowing anything about it. If you don't want to be treated like an idiot, don't act like one; especially not a bumptious, arrogant, self-righteous idiot. Reset: The current Italian immigration law is one of the toughest in Europe. Laws do not alter geography. Are you even capable of listening? Millions of people sail for Italy every year. Tens of thousands drown. Hundreds of thousands are caught. But many slip through. No amount of laws is going to change that. All that the law can do is demand that the State should allocate massive resources - as it already does - to try and interfere with this ongoing process. Reset, tell me, how successful have the anti-drugs laws been in America? And if they are so successful, how come that gangs of drugs smugglers can stage battles in the streets of Mexican towns during which dozens of people die, all paid by American addicts? Laws do not alter facts. At best, they put some slight hindrance in their way. End of story.

Posted by: Paolo at July 31, 2005 12:15 PM

If you don't want to be treated like an idiot, don't act like one; especially not a bumptious, arrogant, self-righteous idiot.

Projecting your insecurities outwards, eh? Or is it showcasing your superior intellect/ culturedness or whatever? Shoot your mouth off, attach labels to individuals here and expect to be treated 'well', eh?

In any case, no point feeding fuel to the fire. Let bygones be bygones. I got no beef with you, personally. And its nice to know someone who cares as passionately about country as you do. Wish there were more such people around (minus the tiny-weenie insecurities) in the west.

Have a nice day.

Posted by: voletti at July 31, 2005 12:28 PM

I don't get it. You can insult the US regarding the drug mess and the immigration mess, and I totally agree. All I did is point out that these new laws, while a good start, are not a solution. They only defer and deter. I love the US. I was born and raised here, but I recognize the danger that our government has placed our civilization.

I love Italy, its creativity, artistry and style. I spent 2 weeks there in 1990 and had a great time. If the US passed the same laws, I would say the same thing. Too little. Too late.

I agree Italy has an immense problem because of its location. If you are saying that controlling immigration to Italy is a lost cause, I am not sure what you believe is the solution, if any solution exists.

Can you 'calm down' the Muslim immigrants and some 'peace' may be restored? Sure. A hudna for Italy. But it is only temporary as all hudnas are while Islam strengthens.

The grievance that Islam has against the West will always be there, smouldering and ready to flare at the next 'insult' to the Muslims.

Posted by: reset at July 31, 2005 12:39 PM

Voletti: there is a general tone among the less intelligent people on this site that insists that there are easy solutions to the Muslim problem - ship them all home - bomb them to the Stone Age - whatever. This is also used to display unwarranted arrogance towards other people's countries. Arrogance and ignorance are an infuriating combination. If you want to defend it, go right ahead, but I still have no sympathy.

Reset: What I am saying is that THERE IS NO SOLUTION. This is no problem: it is a condition of human kind. It will go on for centuries. What we should do is struggle to control and force it back, not escape in daydreams of extermination, expulsion and swift solution, which in effect amount only to "I wish that those damn Muslims were not there." The struggle will go on long after we are dead. This is only an instant in its long arch. You will not solve it. Get used to it.

Incidentally, Gene Roddenberry was a notorious atheist, which is why STAR TREK is empty of religion but full of superstition (ESP and so on). Clever entertainer, but with the moral authority of, say, Zippo the clown.

Posted by: Paolo at July 31, 2005 1:19 PM

There may be surprise that Muslims from Ethiopia and Somalia have been implicated in the London bombings, but there should not be. The Ethiopians one normally meets -- the cab-driver in Washington who took you to the Woodley Hilton from Union Station for that 3-day conference, may well have been a member of the Danakil, an Ethiopian tribe -- don't seem to fit the bill.

And besides, isn't Ethiopia a Chrsitian country, with the Abuna leading the Ethiopian Coptic Church, and those Ethiopian Coptic textiles that are brought back by visitors? And didn't the early Muslims tell the other Muslims to lay off Ethiopia because at some point the Ethiopian king had given refuge to 86 early followers of Muhammad? Yes, and yes.

But Ethiopia, too, is becoming steadily islamized under the pressure of the money, and support, of the Saudis and other Muslims, now intent on islamizing everywhere -- even the Kingdom of Ethiopia that, alone among non-Muslim domains, was supposed to be left largely alone.

That is why there are Muslim Ethiopians -- whose belief-system makes them a threat, while the Christians from Ethiopia not only pose no threat, but are to be aided in every way. And when, in a few years, the Muslims of Egypt attempt to bully Ethiopia into not diverting some of the headwaters of the Nile to much-needed irrigation projects, the Western world must be on the side of still more-or-less Christian Ethiopia. The West must not repeat in Africa the abandonment of the Ibos during the Biafra War, or the long indifference to the massacre of non-Muslim black Africans, over 20 years, in the southern Sudan.

Watch Ethiopia. Watch the islamization. Watch the Saudi-financed mosques. Watch how the numbers of Muslims grow, and the pressure outside from Muslims grow.

Watch -- or don't just watch. Do something.

Posted by: Hugh at July 31, 2005 1:20 PM

Paolo,

"You find a way to stop hundreds of millions of people moving, if you think you can."

One way would be to have the Italian Guardia Costiera Italiana, the Carabinieri Marine Units, and the Marina Militare Italiana all authorized to shoot incoming boats on sight and save only those passengers who are willing to demonstrably destroy a Koran (eg., by tearing the pages out before the eyes of the Italian authorities). At first, many will die, but the word will soon get out that if you want to flee to Italy, be prepared to desecrate a Koran.

Posted by: metaxy at July 31, 2005 2:06 PM

Paolo,

The problem of Haitian boat people was dealt with pretty effectively by the US. I believe it was the Clinton administration that began a policy of intercepting and returning the boats to Haiti long before they reached the US. The French (Haiti is a former French colony) and US also sent troops into Haiti and a corrupt government was removed and security was improved. The presence of troops along with increased secruity lead to far fewer boat people. Most of the people who left Haiti were economic refugees, if there is better security and economic opportunities there's not much reason to get in a leaky boat and head for the US.

BTW- I think the new Italian laws are a welcome change and a step in the right direction.While I don't agree with reset's comments I also don't think hurling insults at him is helpful. The insults only serve to make you look arrogant and condescending.

Posted by: Roxane at July 31, 2005 2:22 PM

Roxane: you must be joking. Are you seriously comparing the potential for mischief of half an island (Haiti) with that of a couple of continents? That is not even worth discussing.

Metaxy: apart from the murderous nature of your proposals, which no Italian would touch with a barge-pole, I thought I had already explained that the problem is not with the boats that our naval forces stop, but with those that get through. Please stop focussing on the wrong point.

Everyone, please stop wasting everyone's time with "proposals" to "solve" the "problem". There is no problem, there is an abiding condition which we have to face day to day as long as we live. Stop looking for universal solutions: be men, and look at the abiding evil in its face. We have to resist it by all good and necessary means; it is highly unlikely that we will be able to put an end to it.

Posted by: Paolo at July 31, 2005 2:39 PM

Paolo,

You claimed there was no solution to the problem of "boat people" I showed you how the problem has been all but ended in the US through diplomatic and military means.I've given you an example of how the problem of "boat people" can be solved. Why am I not suprised you don't want to discuss this solution....lol.

Posted by: Roxane at July 31, 2005 2:50 PM

Paolo,

Well, I wasn't offering up my proposal with any serious hope that it would be implemented. It could be implemented if there were the PI will.

The problem of boats that get through:

1) Most law enforcement problems have unavoidable cracks -- law enforcement is not perfect, doesn't mean it should not be implemented.

2) More resources can be re-directed from diddling around worrying about PC sensitivity to getting at least more of boats that get through than less. Get martial, Goddamn it!

My cynicism, realism and pessimism about these kinds of measures reflects not their practical difficulty or impossibility, but the sheer lack of will, fortitude, rage, pride and reason on the part of most Westerners everywhere.

Posted by: metaxy at July 31, 2005 3:22 PM

MetaxY: I do not even discuss thenotion of firing on civilians. Terrorists do that. End of story.

Roxane, are you being deliberately obtuse? What we are talking about is the excess population of Asia and Africa heading to Italy, and you speak of Haiti as though it were in any way comparable? Can I get it though your alleged mind that you are comparing eight million Haitians, total, with something like three to four billion Asians and Africans? Are you listening? Italy's naval resources, which are among the strongest in Europe, are stretched to the limit dealing with this constant pressure. People die by the hundreds every week, and that makes no difference to the overall migratory pressure at all. Italy is exercising huge diplomatic pressure on Lybia and other North African countries to make them exercise more control on their harbours, but there is only so much that can be done. Do you realize, damn it, that at the closest points (Morocco-Spain, Tunisia-Lampedusa Island), the seas are narrow enough to swim across?

Posted by: Paolo at July 31, 2005 4:09 PM

Hugh:

I suspect Ethiopia probably started to turn Muslim on the demise of Haile Selassie (forgive any spelling errors, it's been years since his name was in the news) and the country was run by the Soviet supported government that followed him.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at July 31, 2005 5:37 PM

The only way to stop an influx of Africans into southern Europe is to make Africa a tolerable place to live. Naval blockades aren't going to do it.

Posted by: Viking5 at July 31, 2005 6:47 PM

Paolo,

The fact that you have to resort to name calling is a sign of weakness and insecurity. I'm not at all impressed by you nor am I intimidated. You remind me of Howard Dean, Michael Moore and other liberals who lash out in anger and resort to name calling because they fear they are losing the argument.You claimed that "boat people" cannot be stopped. I explained how the US despite having a much larger coastline then Italy all but ended the problem of Haitian "boat people". Diplomacy, detention centers and the coast guard have resulted in a reduction in the number Cuban "boat people" as well.Whether or not the Italian government can end the problem of "boat people" remains to be seen. Sometimes problems can be solved it's only the political will that is lacking.

Posted by: Roxane at July 31, 2005 6:53 PM

"The only way to stop an influx of Africans into southern Europe is to make Africa a tolerable place to live."

The only way to do that is to bring back Western Colonialism backed up by a Western people proud of their superiority rather than ashamed of their evil.

But, we are too far gone for that to happen. There's more of a chance that Islam will reform and modernize, than that the PC West will reverse its irrational pathology.

Posted by: metaxy at July 31, 2005 7:43 PM

shiva,

You might be right -- you seem to know more about the headscarves than I do. On another note, could you check out my question to you in the preceding thread on the Louvre and Islamic art? Thanks.

Posted by: metaxy at July 31, 2005 7:45 PM

You claimed that "boat people" cannot be stopped. I explained how the US despite having a much larger coastline then Italy all but ended the problem of Haitian "boat people". Diplomacy, detention centers and the coast guard have resulted in a reduction in the number Cuban "boat people" as well.

Let's take a look at how to reach Florida from Haiti:

http://r0.unctad.org/en/subsites/ldcs/continen/caribb.htm

And now the Med:

http://www.europe-atlas.com/mediterranean-sea.htm

Now can you really say that stopping people coming from a small island 800 km from your coast is really the same as stemming the tide from an entire continent? The geography against Italy, and also the demographics. The living conditions in parts of Africa are the worst in the world. There's no single government that can be bargained with, or threatened with invasion, to stop the problem. And the number of people affected far exceeds the population of the entire Caribbean, let alone Haiti. I don't understand how you can think that the two situations are even comparable. Even Cuba, which is closer to Florida, presents nothing like the same challenge.

Posted by: Viking5 at July 31, 2005 8:48 PM

..Does any JW or DW think they are contributing anything towards the salvation of western culture and freedom by ranting and pounding the chest in front of the choir?...
from Giaor

The purpose of this site is to raise awareness of the horrific threat of Islam on western democracies.
The "Hot air" you complain about is a by product of the raising of this awareness, a healthy expression of the frustrations experienced by those who gain that knowledge.

Posted by: chevalier de st george at July 31, 2005 8:52 PM

Paolo
Direct your anger at Romano Prodi a true enemy of Italy, who will certainly do all he can to oppose this.
And direct your love to Oriana Fallaci who has warned Italians for years, has had to leave her beloved Italy and is now being sued in Italy for telling the truth.
Gallileo must be rolling in his grave.

Posted by: chevalier de st george at July 31, 2005 8:56 PM

Viking,

Where did I say the situations were comparable? What I said was that "boat people" can be stopped. Then I referred to the example of the Haitian "boat people" and the US.BTW- Since you mentioned living conditions. Are you aware that Haiti is the poorest country in the Western hemisphere?

Posted by: Roxane at July 31, 2005 8:56 PM

“there is a general tone among the less intelligent people on this site that insists that there are easy solutions to the Muslim problem - ship them all home”

No one said it would be easy. Impossible? Not by any stretch of the imagination. As one of the less intelligent people on this site, I say the fastest, simplest, most effective ways to protect ourselves is to deport those among us who support jihad, directly or indirectly (see “moderate”). We also know from empherical evidence that we can’t tell the jihadist from the good shepard. It’s a shame too. The world needs more good shepards. Also, many aspects of islam and it’s culture go against my core beliefs and I cannot look past that in good conscience. So here we are, TRUE believer and Unbeliever, oil and water, …immiscible, as a Friend said here once. In light of that, it’s nothing personal, just survival. If that makes me arrogant and ignorant, so be it.

“THERE IS NO SOLUTION”

Solutions become reality when those seeking comfort, knowing something must be done or there will be none, become properly motivated. There are always solutions, some not so pretty, some exceedingly difficult. When conditions warrant, when things get out of hand, some solutions are inevitable and I believe islamofascism meets the criteria of needing a solution, today, now.

Have you ever heard the saying ‘A stitch in time saves nine’? The longer we wait, the tougher the solution.

Posted by: butterfly at August 1, 2005 12:15 AM

The terrorist threat with Islamic origins has a world-wide dimension, it could materialise everywhere and no corner of the planet is immune

Giuseppe Pisanu
Italian Interior Minister

Posted by: leavingtheleft at August 1, 2005 12:47 AM

THERE IS NO SOLUTION”
At last some common sense from a poster on this site.
What arrogance to believe that the West in its present state can achieve what others have failed to acheave in the last thousand years of so!

The malady of appeasement and cowardly capitulation has infested europe ever since they genuflected to stalinism and refused to regocnise the threats of nazism.
All this appeasement has cost millions of lives and it seems only America Does not suffer from this deadly disease.
Europe is now far less likely to repel Islam than it was in the days of Charles Martel!
America and Australia have a chance of some success. They do not suffer from the deadly suicidal disease.
All the spin and hypocrisy. the english press blaming Bush even more frequently than the Muslims themselves for the london attacks.
London has some 200,000 iraqis living thereabouts. Was one Iraqi amongst the list of perpetrators?
Italy ridiculed by the Nazis for its weakness and cowardliness has taken the fist steps ahead of other European Nations , I can only say "Viva Italia" . Now lets see what the Germans will do.
Soon if no attacks reoccur, the lies and deceits will continue
Islam is a religion of peace
Muslims are victims as if Mohamed was a Jesus Christ figure carrying a dove of peace or an olive branch and not one infidel had been harmed by them in 1400 years of Jihad.
And now the new lie the highjacking of peaceful islam by a handful of fanatics.
And the surprise by westerners of the outrages and vile racist comments of Mullahs, who support wholheartedly the slaughter of innocents.
The TOTAL lack of any guilt feelings by Muslims
Oh it must US who are in the wrong since all humans should feel guilt should they not?
perhaps we have an enemy as dangerous as Islam - our own society of cowardly appeasers.

Posted by: chevalier de st george at August 1, 2005 2:15 AM

The real problem here is the Italian judicial system. Recently a judge released some north africans who were recruiting kamakazes because she considered this to be "legitimate guerilla actions".

If, in 10 years' time, Italy becomes a target of jihad I am sure that many judges will consider placing bombs in the subway a "legitimate part of the struggle for liberation" (after all, sicily,sardinia and parts of southern italy were controlled by the arabs).

In truth, there are still many communists (and communits parties) in italy and many judges are linked to these or are communists themselves. These are pro immigration and pro islam because they see these as a potential source of votes in the futrue.

Posted by: restitutor orbis at August 1, 2005 4:42 AM

Butterfly: you evidently did not understand what I was saying. We must do everything that is morally acceptable (and that includes, for instance, a complete halt on immigration and severe controls on asylum from Muslim countries) to hold back this evil. We need to apply the laws we already have and enact, where necessary, more laws against any legitimate existing communities (such as the ones in Britain) shutting themselves in on themselves and becoming the nation's enemy. We must restore the ancient punishment of exile and reach agreement among all non-Muslim countries that none will give shelter to someone that another has condemned to exile. (The advantage of exile is that it can be inflicted even without need to remove the citizenship of a native traitor.) We need to back with all open and secret powers of the State Christian missions to Muslim lands, and indeed insist that any religion, from American Zoroastrianism to New Ageism, be free to proselytize there. We must look for all kinds of imaginative provisions that do not include mass murder or violent oppression, because we want to resist the evil of Islam, not copy it. The point is that whatever we do will almost certainly not see an end to this evil. We must be prepared to face it unflinchingly, stoically, and our whole life long. And our children's life. And our children's children.

Posted by: Paolo at August 1, 2005 4:56 AM

Restitutor Orbis: the nonsense of that particular female judge has since been stopped by legislation. Incidentally, would it hurt to give your enemies some credit? Does it not occur to you that the people you call communists might be in favour of immigration, not in hope of votes, but on principle? I have been accused of insulting my opponents, but this kind of degrading assessment of enemies as merely concerned with power is the real insult.

Incidentally, Prodi will win the elections in a year's time, and Berlusconi will have deserved to lose. That is just too bad, and we must get used to the fact. Personally, I could wish to single out the good men on both sides, from the post-Fascist Alemanno to the post-Communist Diliberto, and make a government with them, but alas, one can be more or less certain that even in the very unlikely event of a government of national unity, the party brain-deads would probably be prefered to the able and honest people. Italian politics is another evil to which one must become used, because nothing can be done to correct it.

Off Topic: I just heard of the Saudi tyrant's death. The BBC's account of him was everything you could expect: an avalanche of obfuscation and suppressio veri that left those of us who did not know the facts with the feeling that a serious statesman and important historical figure had just deprived us of his precious presence. SHIT!!!

Posted by: Paolo at August 1, 2005 5:05 AM

here an emotive appeal to Italians from Oriana, pointing out the awful hypocrisy of her incrimination at the hands of the Bergamo judge in collusion with the Muslim who threatened her with death.

And now that I have touched on this argument, pay close attention to me, mister judge of Bergamo who wanted to incriminate me for defaming Islam, but who has never been incriminated for defaming Christianity. Not even for incitement to homicide. (Mine.) Listen to me, and go ahead and condemn me. You can even condemn me to three years in prison; a punishment that Italian judges would not even inflict on Islamic terrorists caught with explosives in their cantinas. Your trial is pointless. As long as I have breath left in me I will repeat what I have written in my books and what I am writing again here. I have never allowed myself to be intimidated--not by death threats, not by persecution, not by denigration, by insults against which you made sure to protect me even as a simple citizen. So figure if I’m going to allow myself to be intimidated by you--you who negate my constitutional right to think and express my opinion. But before the trial starts, I must ask you something that I’ve been very curious about. Will you leave me alone in my jail cell, or with Carabinieri that the Italian State courteously imposed upon me so I don’t end up murdered like Biagi or Theo van Gough? I ask because our Minister of the Interior says that more than fifty percent of the prisoners in our prisons are Muslims, and I’m guessing that I would have more need of the protection of those Carabinieri in jail than in my own home. (And the same goes for you, lords of Parliament; congratulations for having rejected the proposal by the Minister of Justice to abolish the crimes of opinion. And particular congratulations go to the honorable National Alliance party which, besides having negotiated that rejection, also asked to abolish the crime of defending Fascism).

The indulgence that the Catholic Church (of all, the greatest sustainer of The Dialogue) professes in regards to Islam. That is, her steadfast, unyielding will to emphasize the “common spiritual patrimony furnished to us by the three great monotheistic religions. The Christian one, the Jewish one, the Islamic one. All based on the concept of one God; all three inspired by Abraham. Good Abraham who, in order to obey God, was about to slit his son’s throat as if he were a sacrificial lamb. What common patrimony?!? Allah has nothing in common with the God of Christianity. With God the Father, the Good Lord, the affectionate God who preached love and forgiveness. The God who in men saw his children. Allah is a master God, a tyrant God. A God who in men sees his subjects; no, his slaves. A God who, instead of love, teaches hate; who through the Koran calls those who believe in another God infidel dogs and orders them to be punished. To be subjugated, to be killed. So how can you place Christianity and Islam on the same plane?!? How can you Jesus and Mohammed equally?!? Does the matter of the One God really suffice to establish a concord of concepts, of principles, of values?!?

http://mysteryachievement.blogspot.com/2005/07/enemy-we-treat-like-friend-part-iv.html

Posted by: chevalier de st george at August 1, 2005 5:11 AM

"ommunists ... are pro immigration and pro islam because they see these as a potential source of votes in the future"

-- and as a potential pool of fellow "Revolutionaries" against the evil Americano-Zionist Capitalist Globalist Empire.

Posted by: metaxy at August 1, 2005 1:56 PM