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This program isn't perfect, but it is good to see Sacranie and Co. being asked some hard questions for a change. Now if only the American mainstream media would follow suit. "Programme transcript: What follows is a transcript of 'A question of Leadership', first broadcast Sunday 21 August 2005, 22:20 BST on BBC One," with thanks to all who sent this in:
Unidentified speaker: It's a great honour to kill these people¿ Islam not a religion of just you speaking we got to people of action.John Ware: Two British Muslims prepare to go on a suicide mission. They're sent on their way to the strains of a song hailing them as heroes fighting for the homeland.
But it wasn't their homeland. Their target was a seaside bar in the Israeli city of Tel Aviv.
3 civilians were killed and more than 50 injured.
The British bombers' sole connection with Palestine was that they were Muslim.
Yet they were prepared to kill civilians for their Palestinian brothers overseas. Then came London: again the bombers were British born Muslims.
Again their target was civilians - but this time it was their fellow citizens.
Leaders of the Muslim communities were summoned to Downing Street by the Prime Minister who called on them to help root out what he termed this "evil ideology" of Islamist extremism.
Tony Blair, Prime Minister: We all accept and advocate a society of tolerance and respect for people from whatever race or religious background they come from.
John Ware: Sir Iqbal Sacranie, on the left, is generally presented as the Muslim community's main representative. He certainly has the ear of government.
He's the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain. After the British bombing of the bar in Tel Aviv, Sir Iqbal said it hadn't marked a growth in Islamist extremism here.
Now he does admit there is a problem.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: The Muslim community is determined to deal with this issue head on. And it will now come up with various pro active measures. That means we go into the community to address that issue.
John Ware: Extremism feeds off a conviction that Islam is a superior faith and culture which Christians and Jews in the West are conspiring to undermine.
My journey through Muslim communities since the London bombings suggests their leaders have not acknowledged the extent to which these views are held in Britain.
TITLE: A QUESTION of LEADERSHIP
John Ware: Britain has around 2 million Muslims.
Muslim leaders have condemned utterly the bombings.
And yet this murderous rage grew from within their communities.
Some influential Muslims believe the time for a full and frank debate about where Islam is going here is long over due.
Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, Muslim Institute: I think the British people may give us benefit of doubt once this time, but if this were to be repeated, then I think the Muslim position ¿ future is very bleak. And knowing our community, the amount of fundamentalism and extremism that exists, I'm not quite sure that this will not happen again. "
John Ware: Dr Siddiqui is not alone in believing that sectarian attitudes extend beyond the small number of extremists.
Others doubt the Muslim Council of Britain has grasped the scale of this problem.
Mehboob Kantharia, Founding Member, Muslim Council of Britain: A lot of them still live in a state of denial. It is my personal belief that because they are in this state of denial, they cannot become real, you know, sort of like, forthright, really forthright about wanting to do something about the kind of extremism that prevails.
John Ware: Mehboob Kantharia was a founding member of the Muslim Council of Britain; generally regarded as the moderate face of Islam speaking for the Muslim community.
On its website the MCB emphasises it's working for better community relations and for the good of society as a whole.
It's an umbrella for around 400 mosques, and other Islamic groups.
But Mr Kantharia says that within the MCB a distaste for western secular culture still exists.
Mehboob Kantharia: One of the most powerful strands, and many will tear me up and say, 'sorry, you've got it completely wrong', has been an anti-British, anti-Western stand. We are now British, therefore this is our home, this is our country, this country is not our enemy.
John Ware: Several MCB affiliates do have links to anti western ideologies from abroad.
The Deputy General Secretary of the MCB is Dr Abdul Bari.
He's also Chairman of the East London Mosque which has maintained good relations with other local faith groups.
Last year a £10m new Islamic centre was opened.
The guests included Christian leaders. The Chief Rabbi and Prince Charles also sent goodwill messages.
The guest of honour was one of the most prominent clerics from Saudi Arabia - the most austere Islamic state in the world whose ideology is the polar opposite of secular Britain.
But London's East End is home to many faiths and the Sheikh's theme was tolerance.
Sheikh Abdur-Rahman Al-Sudais, Imam, Ka'ba, Mecca, Saudi Arabia: The history of Islam is the best testament to how different communities can live together in peace and harmony. Muslims must exemplify the true image of Islam in their interaction with other communities.
John Ware: Sheikh Sudais is a leading Imam from the great mosque in Mecca, Islam's holiest city.
He had one voice for his Western audience - another for his followers in Saudi. Sheikh Abdur-Rahman Al-Sudais: The worst ... of the enemies of Islam are those... whom he... made monkeys and pigs, the aggressive Jews and oppressive Zionists and those that follow them: the callers of the trinity and the cross worshippers¿ those influenced by the rottenness of their ideas, and the poison of their cultures the followers of secularism... How can we talk sweetly when the Hindus and the idol worshippers indulge in their overwhelming hatred against our brothers... in Muslim Kashmir...
John Ware: The East London mosque received $1m from the Saudis towards their new centre. The mosque's links to Saudi go back many years.The mosque's Chairman Dr Bari remains to be convinced that his honoured guest Sheikh Sudais has repeatedly vilified other faiths.
John Ware: Do I take it that if you were satisfied he had said such things you would not have invited him over?
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, Chairman, East London Mosque, Deputy Secretary General, Muslim Council Of Britain: Well of course if it was proved that he exactly said this thing that you mentioned then why do you invited people who would be saying like this?
John Ware: I mean, let me say what else he's reported to have said, he said: 'There should be no peace with the rats of the world.' Again he refers to Jews as the scum of the human race, offspring of apes and pigs, and he has also referred to Christians as worshippers of the cross.' You don't see Christians in those terms?
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: I don't see Christians in those terms.
John Ware: You don't see Christians in those terms?
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: No.
John Ware: No. And idol worship¿ you don't see Hindus as idol worshippers, do you ? I'm sure you don't, do you? Do you?
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: Well... why are you bringing all this?
John Ware: You, er, I mean you do not regard Hindus as idol worshippers?
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: Well Hindu... you mean the definition? When it's idol worshipper, different people worship God in different manners.
John Ware: Mmm.
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: Once again you are entering into the theological debate and Muslims worship one monotheistic God and many other communities may have different versions of God.
John Ware: No, I understand that.
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: The Trinity may be one of them.
John Ware: I understand that.
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: And it all depends how you use the word and explain the word.
John Ware: Sure, but this is harsh.. you wouldn't... I mean no, I accept all that, but this is different, isn't it. This is very harsh language; this in effect denounces other faiths, Hindus, Christians and Jews.
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: Well denouncing any faith is not acceptable in Islam, that's not the Prophetic teaching. We need to know the source of this and this is very dangerous thing, that character assassination of Muslim scholars and leaders are getting very widespread.
John Ware: I'm not trying to assassinate his character I'm simply trying to deal with the facts. That's all I'm trying to do.
Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari: No, I know, you are mentioning... you are saying facts but we have a question whether these are facts.
John Ware: The facts are easily checkable - we found a selection of the Sheikh's sermons on a Saudi website covering mosques in the holy cities of Medina and Mecca - with English translations.
Sheikh Abdur-Rahman Al-Sudais: Monkeys and pigs and worshippers of false Gods who are the Jews and the Zionists¿
John Ware: The $1m gift from the Saudis to the East London Mosque is but a drop in the ocean compared to the billions they've spent spreading their narrow form of Islam around the world.
Some of the Saudi millions have been spent on new translations of the Qur'an which are less tolerant of other faiths.
Take a look at this popular English version of the Qur'an not translated by the Saudis.
It translates this verse as saying: "Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures)¿ and the Christians.. any who believe in Allah¿and work righteousness.." can go to paradise.
Now look at this more recent version of the Qur'an, by Saudi appointed translators.
The same verse suggests Jews and Christians would only go to paradise if they "believed in Allah ¿and worked righteousness.."
Other recent Saudi translations of the Qur'an make the change to the past tense even more starkly.
One of the leading British experts on the Qur'an is Professor Neal Robinson.
He says this difference in translation may seem subtle, but today casts non Muslims in a completely different light.
Professor Neal Robinson, University Louvain, Belgium: The recent Saudi translation gives the impression that only Jews and Christians before the rise of Islam could be admitted to Paradise not Jews and Christians today who believe in God, look to the coming day of judgement and do goods works.
John Ware: What do you think of this?
Professor Neal Robinson: I think this is a regrettable narrowing. They've not changed the interpretation of the Qur'an, this was the prevalent view in the middle ages; just as mediaeval Christians believed that outside the church there was no salvation."
John Ware: Muslims regard the Qur'an as infallible - because they believe the texts are the divine revelations from God.
Over the last 20 years, the Saudis have flooded the world with harsher interpretations of the Qur'an, cut price and often free.
What message has this missionary zeal reinforced to Muslims about other faiths?
Professor Neal Robinson: That a Muslim cannot be a genuine friend of a non-Muslim.
Professor Neal Robinson: Their whole ideology is one of Arab and Islamic supremacy and they have little room for other more liberal Arab interpretations of Islam and no room at all for West. The West is just dismissed as decadent and secular. They have no understanding of the way in which modern secular societies have carefully separated the domains of religion and state and kept certain areas of public life free of religious influence."
John Ware: I've come to Oxford to meet a Muslim academic who's lived here for most of the last 30 years. He believes imported ideologies have hindered the development of Islam in Britain.
He doesn't believe Britain can have a Saudi Islam, a Pakistani Islam, or any other sort of Islam that isn't indigenous to this country. That way lies an isolated, ghettoised society.
Dr Taj Hargey runs a centre that promotes what he calls "progressive inclusive Islam."
He says there's a virtual apartheid in parts of Britain - self imposed by those Muslims who regard non Muslims as Kaafir - in the sense that they are inferior.
John Ware: Have you heard Muslim leaders use the word Kaafir in private to you? I mean you're a Muslim, would they use that word to you?
Dr Taj Hargey, Chairman, Muslim Education Centre Oxford : Yes, absolutely, I've heard it many, many a time.
John Ware: Because they don't use it to non-Muslims.
Dr Taj Hargey: No, but¿I've just mentioned that, we have a one vocabulary in private and we have another vocabulary for the public domain, and that's why you don't hear it because you're the public domain.
John Ware: You've heard it in mosques yourself?
Dr Taj Hargey: Ad infinitum and ad nauseum, it's there, it's with us. We see it from the time you're a child, you're given this idea that those people they are Kaafir, they're unbelievers. They are not equal to you, they are different to you. You are superior to them because you have the truth, they don't have the truth. You will go to heaven, they will go to hell. So we have this from a very young age.
John Ware: Further evidence of Saudi influence is the Ahl-e-Hadith organisation, a major affiliate of the Muslim Council of Britain. Based in Birmingham, and with 41 branches across Britain it is inspired by puritanical Saudi ideology.
One part of its website tells readers their fellow citizens are "Kuffaar". "Be different from the Jews and Christians"
"Their ways are based on sick or deviant views concerning their societies¿"
Muslims are also warned that imitating the Kuffaar and attending "Christmas .....First of April lies, birthday parties.." may lead to "permanent abode in the Hell Fire"
The Secretary General of the MCB, Sir Iqbal Sacranie must perform a difficult juggling act.
The MCB is an umbrella group embracing many diverse strands of Islam. But should he also be providing a stronger lead?
John Ware: I'm quoting from Ali Hadith. As I say it's quite an important affiliate of yours and just to give you one example from their website, they say of Jews and Christians: 'Their ways are based on sick or deviant views' and that 'imitating the Kuffaar leads to a permanent abode in hellfire.' That's a 'Them and Us' culture, isn't it, that's a slippery slope.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary General, Muslim Council of Britain: It's a view that they hold, it's a view which¿
John Ware: Do you subscribe that view?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: I don't subscribe to that. I'm not a member of Ahle Hadith but it's a membership that we have, it's diversity that exists in the community, having different views on life.
John Ware: Isn't it a form of diversity that you should disown?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: Well we must accept the reality on the ground that the diversity that we have with the Muslim Community in the UK and as long as they subscribe to our constitution, which is very clear, which is on the website and it's totally transparent in terms of its activities of a work which is through the teachings of the Quran and upholding the principles of Islam; then what they do outside the Council, there is no control that we have on them.
John Ware: Let's talk turkey here, you said outside downing street you're going to deal with this problem head on. I'm not suggesting they're your views. But if you're going to deal with this problem head on, don't you need to start with organisations that hold Jews and Christians for a start in such contempt? I mean that's the slippery slope. That's the slippery slope that people who become extremists start to go down.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: Well you presumably have that knowledge, I don't think that that is one clear avenue to bringing about the conclusion that we're trying to get to. What I'm saying is that there are of course different views being held. We would now¿
John Ware: But this is an objectionable view.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: It may have well been objectionable view but the fact is it exists within the community."
John Ware: While the MCB tolerates an affiliate that denounces other faiths, Iqbal Sacranie was famously intolerant when his own faith was insulted.
In 1989 Muslims burned copies of Salman Rushdie's book The Satanic Verses which ridiculed the Prophet Mohammed.
But while Muslims exercised their right to protest, they did not believe Rushdie had a right to free expression.
They demanded the government ban the book
Iqbal Sacranie was one of the joint protest leaders.
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: Attempting to insult the blessed prophet, peace be upon him, is the most serious crime in the eyes of Islamic law. The crime is considered as transgressing the limits and is worse than treason and is a capital offence.
John Ware: The Iranians had already passed the death sentence on Salman Rushdie whom they regarded as a Muslim.
Their Fatwa said every Muslim had a duty to execute it.
Mindful perhaps of British law, Iqbal Sacranie was reported as saying:
"Death, perhaps, is a bit too easy for him?" but he still expected Rushdie to be mentally tormented for the rest of his life.
John Ware: Today you still believe that if 'Satanic Verses' was published again, you would expect the government of the day to put pressure on the publishers to withdraw it?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: Well I¿
John Ware: Would you?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: There is no¿
John Ware: But would you?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: There is no law at the moment, sadly, that would enable me to pursue with a legal course of.. of seeking its withdrawal.
John Ware: If by 'sadly' - I take it you wish there was a law which would allow you to withdraw a book of this kind should it be published again. Is that right?
Sir Iqbal Sacranie: If the law that we would like to sort of see appear, a law does not prevent totally, it's a very powerful message that goes out in type of what sort of society we have. We respect the freedom of expression but we expect freedom of expression to be exercised with responsibility."
There is much more. Read it all.
Posted by Robert at August 22, 2005 6:18 AM
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I am sorry I missed Panorama last night, I was catching up with the news here on JW/DW.
I, and others, have wondered since 7th July whether the BBC has at last realised that there is a war on and that it might be a good idea to be on the winning side. Certainly this is refreshing after the Islamic bias we have seen these last few years.
Mainstream news coverage remains very pro-Palestinian. The venom in the voice of Orla Guerlain as she gloated over the expulsions from Gaza was not pleasant. By contrast the childrens programme Newsround was very sensitive about the distress of the Jewish children on leaving their homes for new schools and an uncertain future.
Perhaps all the posts at Have Your Say that were never published, and the weekly complaints, multiplied however manyfold throughout the country have had an effect. We must keep on at them to ensure this is kept up. Off to the Panorama website now to view the comments.
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at August 22, 2005 8:30 AM
The programme itself may be viewed online here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/default.stm
Hope you all find this useful.
By the way, I watched the programme last night. It was a refreshing change to watch a programme on the BBC that was actually critical of Islam/Muslims in the UK.
Posted by: Mark at August 22, 2005 8:35 AM
Orla Guerlin, the wife of a "Palestinian," needs to be fired. She drips with bias. And so does John Simpson, head of the BBC World Service, about whom you can find a good deal by googling "Posted by Hugh" and "jihadwatch" and "John Simpson" -- and in particular you can learn of his admiration for the crazed anti-Israel conspiracy book by Peter Hounam, for which Simpson provided an introduction.
At a certain point, certain pre-existing mental conditions or pathologies -- anti-Americanism and antisemitism -- get in the way of the ability to see Islam for what it is. One becomes an automatic apologist. That has been the situation of the BBC. It is particularly true of the BBC World Service, which takes its orders from the Foreign Office. And we all know what the Foreign Office bias is. AskJ. B. Kelly. Or Ann Lambton. Or the shade of Elie Kedourie.
Posted by: Hugh at August 22, 2005 8:48 AM
The Panorama programme was a step in the right direction, particularly for the BBC.
If it were simply a matter of their biased reporting on the ME conflict, I might be willing to bundle the BBC in with Reuters and the The Guardian as just another news service that is anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic. But with this story from 2003, I came to realize that the BBC is much more of an enemy propagandist not unlike Goebbels:
Ms. Doucete, who refers to suicide/ homicide bombers as "honor" killers, believes "her job is to translate" rather than simply report the news because "Israel is led by a Prime Minister who believes that it is not Israel's policy that is wrong, just that they have to explain it better." And so admonishes the Palestinians that "if you want to beat the Israeli's, you have to beat them at their own game…" There follows eight pages of clear instruction on how the Palestinians can manipulate the press to their own advantage.
http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Jan-12-03.htm
Posted by: Charles Martel at August 22, 2005 9:30 AM
In the UK the Foreign Office has been nicknamed "The Camel Corps" since the sixties, signalling their Arab credentials & sympathies.
I am afraid that there is no saving the BBC - dinosaur apologists like Simpson, or the entire staff on R4's Today Show, are so deeply ingrained at the BBC that any future replacements in the machine at this time are little carbon copies of the original mould.
Posted by: albion at August 22, 2005 9:30 AM
I have to say, the Panorama special was well done, and it became apparent as to how much the MCB has been given the red carpet at the BBC, because Sacranie was obviously not prepared for this line of questioning...He found it difficult to dissemble.
As a commenter on my site said, though: "I'm half expecting a public apology from the BBC about the programme. Maybe later on newsnight."
I get the same feeling. I would be surprised if Ware still has a job in a week or two...;-)
Of course, it did not go nearly as far as it could have, but it was a good effort.
at August 22, 2005 9:38 AM
I was always aware of an anti-Israeli bias in the BBC, but it was only relatively recently I realized the depth of that bias.
I am glad to see that the BBC has at last looked critically at Islam, albeit the MCB, but it is a start. May the continue this line of investigation.
The BBC is a joke to a lot of people in the UK, during the Iraqi wars they were referred to as the Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation, and now they are know by quite a few as Al BBC.
I happen to like the BBC website service, however I have some sympathy with other media entities who have to work on a commercial basis and are not funded by the licence fee. The BBC is politically weak on this subject as no other media company can afford to develop a resource comparable to it and there is some pressure on them.
I think that it is lauable to be even-handed, but I remember well a comment supposedly made by a journalist of the Guardian (even though I do not know who it was), who said that they were tough on Israel as it was a first world country and that that they (the Guardian) expected better from first world countries.
And all I can say to that, is that the BBC (and the Guardian) should apply the first world rule to EVERY country, every ideology, every religion, we are after all one world and if the BBC was true to being even handed, that is how they should report the news, I want news, not a graded judgement system based on how civilised the country is supposed to be, nor do I want the news delivered in clever speak to slur a country or whatever, just hard cold facts, they speak for themselves.
Posted by: Daffersd at August 22, 2005 9:59 AM
The general opinion on the panorama website
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4162514.stm is that the programme was islamophobic and blasphemous.
For example Lutfun Naher of London whines "Please don't use my licence money to make a programme that offends me and is against my faith." Make more programmes that offend Jews and Christians and that are against their faith instead.
(He didn't actually say that last bit.)
If this is the reaction to a critique of the current political situation (or so it seemed from my reading of the transcript) then heaven alone knows how they would react to something like "Mohammed, the Paedophile Prophet exposed" or "The Truth about Taquiya" or "Dhimmitude - The Musical". Watching those fireworks could be fun.
Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at August 22, 2005 10:39 AM
Granny,
I think the sound of numerous detonations across the length and bredth of Blighty at a guess. And even louder "Islam is a religion of peace" type comments, problem is that hardly anyone except the PC lefties belief that codswallop any more, thankfully.
What is your feeling, are more Brits now awake to what Islam really is, or are they still too busy working or knocking them back down the bar to notice?
I had a great victory two weekends ago, I even got my brother in law, a USA hating French leftie to state that Islam is the problem I also got two Swiss and another Frenchmen to start investigating further the peace loving natue of Islam.
Keep safe
Posted by: Daffersd at August 22, 2005 10:55 AM
are more Brits now awake to what Islam really is?
I think the message is slowly getting through. Perhaps ordinary people were always less gullible than the chattering classes anyway.
The problem with lefties is that they don't want to see the problem as Islam; they want instead to see it as 'Islamism', or some sort of deviant political manifestation of the true Islam.
Of course this is absurd. To be consistent you'd have to say that Mohammed wasn't a real Muslim - real Islam being peaceful and all - he was an Islamist! Or as Robert would say 'a misunderstander of Islam'!
Posted by: Interested at August 22, 2005 11:04 AM
If Spencer decides to close comments, here's one option for keeping in touch:
SusanB and I have compiled a list of JW/DWers who wish to make their e-mail addresses available for contact with other JW/DWers. This is how it works: if someone wishes to have interpersonal contact with another member (exchange personal e-mails), they contact SusanB who will then request authorization from the other party for his/her e-mail address to be shared on a one-time basis, only with the individual requesting contact. No e-mail addresses will be given out without authorization of the parties involved. Sometimes individuals prefer to network offsite and this provides an opportunity to correspond privately and perhaps in greater depth than would be appropriate posted at JW/DW. Also, this may be our only recourse should we lose the ability to network here.
If you would like to be included in our database, please e-mail SusanB at susan_b356@yahoo.com. Please don't forget to include your JW/DW screenname so that we know who you are.
Also, Susan will soon be enabling comments again at co-jet, an independent spin-off of JW.
Right now the site is updated on a weekly basis but soon it will be updated daily and at some point commenting will be back online.
CGW
at August 22, 2005 11:27 AM
Interested,
Problem is that the ordinary people don't get listened too and have no power.
It is absurd, the whole religion is absurd, but I have to give credit, what a system they created to keep the masses in check, and also their long term strategy is absolutely extrodinary. The first thing I have noticed is that every single non-Muslim country has had Muslim immigration to some degree.
Its a race to get critical mass in non-Muslim countries before the oil money supporting this runs out. Muslims will of course say that there is no central strategic head to Islam, but that is a lie, it is situated in the centres of Islamic schools setting Islamic law, I am sure of it.
Posted by: Daffersd at August 22, 2005 11:39 AM
Charles Martel:
Thanks for the link.
Lyse Doucet's reports get picked up by CBC Radio when it's not on strike. (In fact, I believe she was in the middle of making a report when she got word of being cut off.)
I think this is worth referring to the "Corpse's" ombudsman vis a vis her journalistic integrity and hope other Canadian bloggers here do likewise. David Bedein's account actually identifies Doucet as an employee of the BBC, so I hope Brit bloggers do likewise.
Lastly, we should refer this item to HonestReporting to see if they want to get behind a mass campaign.
Nobody is without bias, but Doucet is absolutely toxi.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at August 22, 2005 11:50 AM
Charles Martel:
Thanks for the link.
Lyse Doucet's reports get picked up by CBC Radio when it's not on strike. (In fact, I believe she was in the middle of making a report when she got word of being cut off.)
I think this is worth referring to the "Corpse's" ombudsman vis a vis her journalistic integrity and hope other Canadian bloggers here do likewise. David Bedein's account actually identifies Doucet as an employee of the BBC, so I hope Brit bloggers do likewise.
Lastly, we should refer this item to HonestReporting to see if they want to get behind a mass campaign.
Nobody is without bias, but Doucet is absolutely toxic.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at August 22, 2005 11:50 AM
Charles Martel:
Thanks for the link.
Lyse Doucet's reports get picked up by CBC Radio when it's not on strike. (In fact, I believe she was in the middle of making a report when she got word of being cut off.)
I think this is worth referring to the "Corpse's" ombudsman vis a vis her journalistic integrity and hope other Canadian bloggers here do likewise. David Bedein's account actually identifies Doucet as an employee of the BBC, so I hope Brit bloggers do likewise.
Lastly, we should refer this item to HonestReporting to see if they want to get behind a mass campaign.
Nobody is without bias, but Doucet is absolutely toxic.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at August 22, 2005 11:50 AM
I agree with Interested, we were/are less gullible than the chattering classes to start with and since the London bombs people are less afraid of PC censure. I was pleasantly surprised at just how thin the PC veneer really was after Thursday 7th July. I think you are right about the race Daffersd; I hadn't thought of it that way before.
So I came home from holiday to find comments still in existence, but under threat again today as the moderator has given up after only a few days. I will take advantage of Susan's offer above (she has my details from co-jet in any event) and am obliged to Interested for her efforts earlier.
at August 22, 2005 11:57 AM
A few more programs like this from the bbc and i might just consider paying my tv licence :)
Posted by: markuk at August 22, 2005 12:20 PM
Another HE SAID IT!!...Sheikh Abdur-Rahman Al-Sudais, Imam, Ka'ba, Mecca, Saudi Arabia: The history of Islam is the best testament to how different communities can live together in peace and harmony. Muslims must exemplify the true image of Islam in their interaction with other communities. ...
Is this the historical testament we should rely on?
The Jihad against Arabs (622 to 634)
The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)
The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)
The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)
The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians - modern Sudanese (650)
The Jihad against pagan Berbers - North Africans (650 to 700)
The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)
The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)
The Jihad against Franks - modern French (720 to 732)
The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)
The Jihad against Chinese (751)
The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)
The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)
The Crusade against Jihad (1096 – 1291 ongoing)
The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)
The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)
The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays (1450 to 1500)
The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)
The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)
The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)
The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)
The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)
The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)
The Jihad against Albania (1332 - 1853)
The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)
The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)
The Jihad against Austrians (1683)
Jihad in the Modern Age (20th and 21st Centuries)
The Jihad against Israelis (1948 – 2004 ongoing)
The Jihad against Americans (9/11/2001)
The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)
The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao(1970 onwards)
The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)
The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)
The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)
The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)
The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)
The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)
The Global Jihad today (2001 – ongoing)
The War on Terror against Jihad today (2001– ongoing)
The Vision for the post-Islamic (and post-religious) world
Islam and Jihad Rising
Jihad surges and recedes dependent on the outcome of major wars. When Islam encounters setbacks, jihad tends to diminish while Islam regains strength. Muslims who live in Infidel lands are in a 'weak' stage. During this period, Muslims pretend to like Infidels, and try to conceal the truth from the Infidels. As they grow in strength and numbers, Jihad always raises its head taking the Infidels by surprise. This is what is happening today around the world. Islam believes it is in a resurgence, and it is, and that the Infidels are weak and ready to be conquered by the sword. The enormous oil revenues have made it possible. The infiltration of the infidels is deep, the Muslim population has grown and the hatred for the infidels rivals that of the eight century in Islam's expansion across the top of Africa and its jump across the Mediterranean into Spain (Andalusia.)
That a pretty bad testament to me. But he said it.
Pedestrian Infidel
The Pedestrian Infidel Blog
at August 22, 2005 12:21 PM
Granny,
It would be a shame if the comments got closed down as it enables me to exchange views with people like yourself. I wonder why, is Mr Spencer getting listened to in the higher echelons of the US government and extreme comments here could be used to under-mine him, or is it a block to him in trying to widen the audience to the message.
HonestReporting is well and truely bookmarked, thanks for that Charles Martel.
Posted by: Daffersd at August 22, 2005 12:40 PM
In the comments I read another slam at the US for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I cannot believe that revisionist history is so prevalent. Ask a few veterans of WWII if the bomb was a mistake. When the old folks are gone the war will be a "terrible injustice done to Japan and Germany".
Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 22, 2005 12:50 PM
what i hope has been noted in the aftermath of panorama last night is what the bbc was trying to push in the programme. more that once the muslims were accused of proclaiming the "supremacy of islam". their answers to this incidentally were utterly pathetic, desperately trying to slip into blair mode.
but john ware was implying that other religions do NOT say that they and they alone are right. my own faith, christianity, certainly does, and pray God it continues to do so. already churches in england are being informed by local blairite councils that they may not post scripture on their walls proclaiming christ as the only way. he is the only way.
i will say it - hindus ARE idolaters (as are muslims) christians are NOT "cross-worshippers" - they worship the only God.
how much longer will we able to exercise this most basic freedom and say this before being hauled before the beaks. not much longer if the UK's chief theologian, the right hon tony blair gets his way.
what i also hope has been noted is the role of the "west's best friend in the region", saudi arabia. tinkering about with translations of the quran to suit their own nefarious purposes and giving them away for nothing, funding the very things causing the offence in uk
remember the shameful, cowardly behaviour of the right wing when "death of a princess" was on the go? maggie thatcher apologising to the saudis. "oh please please dont be offended because of this film. you see its all these silly silly left wing people i have to put up with in this country, theyre such a dreadful nuisance, were on your side really your majesty"
the west has not changed in this respect. its high time the vile filthy saudi regime was laid bare and everyone was aware of its horrendous nature
Posted by: freddiefreeloader
at August 22, 2005 12:59 PM
Granny
Channel 4 has a season of programmes on 'Islamic Culture' coming up in the autumn as well as a two hour documentary called 'The Life of Mohammad' - how much does it make you want to groan?
People forget that Channel 4 is even more dhimmi-lunatic than the BBC - they are the wettest puddle of them all - it is literally the Guardian Channel.
Posted by: Zico at August 22, 2005 1:13 PM
I wonder if they'll do the real life of Mohammed, including his paedophilic relationship with Aisha and his multiple beheadings. Or will he just be a man of peace? Silly question really.
Posted by: Interested at August 22, 2005 1:24 PM
Freedom and liberty are lost the moment we are afraid to defend those principles in the face of threats by those who would do us harm to deprive us of our inalienable rights. Unfortunately, too many people rationalize their cowardice to face these threats by (wrongly) trying to present thermselves as pacifists. There is nothing inherently wrong in pacifism, indeed it should be a loftier goal than its polar opposite, war. Pacifism is the result of having secured, and not the means oo achieving, freedom and liberty. However, once cowardice, although labeled as pacifism, is in reality cowardice rationalized as appeasement or multiculturalism irreperably, the precious inalienable rights of freedom and liberty are irreperably lost.
I use as this example, an article I first saw online in Yahoo news from the Chicago Tribune entitled Britain has second thoughts about longer pub hours. I only started to read this article for amusement purposes only, as I have no personal interest or stake in the pub hours of Britain. The seriousness of this article only became apparent as I read it in full. An issue that should only be discussed in the realm of public safety and health, has been denigrated to an issue of dhimmitude. Witness this quote from the article:
It all seemed like such a good idea when the government proposed the law change in 2001: Eliminate Britain's notorious 11 p.m. bar closing times, and the nation would become a more civilized place... Four years later and with the deadline for licensing applications under the pending law nearing, there are screams of alarm throughout the news media, police, courts and parliamentary circles that allowing Britons to drink longer will make matters worse. They will, so the new argument goes, get more drunk over more time, cause more trouble and fill up more hospitals, courtrooms and jails.It will even, according to Manchester lawyer Andrew Rosemarine writing in The Times newspaper, "cause more terrorism" because it will "increase Muslim disaffection and support for those fighting such decadence."
Perhaps one of our English friends could enlighten us as to the percentage of the population of Manchester that is now Muslim. For a lawyer supposedly trained to advocate, above all, the rule of law in the face of adversity to have even made this comment is absolutely despicable.
Posted by: Lisa at August 22, 2005 2:13 PM
Daffersd,
I don't see how Mr Spencer can afford to shut down this Comments section. There is such a wealth of information here - supportive of his work - that expands, validates, bring in fresh perspectives, ground reports, ideas, personal experiences, more.
If anything, this is an asset. If some comments are liabilities it would be worth it to put in the resources for a modulator.
Posted by: skidd at August 22, 2005 2:25 PM
Zico, I wandered into the front room earlier and what was my husband watching but the Channel 4 News. With Jon Snow interviewing a man and woman about Iraq and getting everything wrong - "No, I was not the prime minister of Kurdistan, I am not a public figure, no we were not...etc" Snow looked totally bemused. Unfortunatly I couldn't stay in the room, I had potatos to butter and mash.
I find Channel 4 documentaries very simplistic. Whatever the subject there seems to be an obligatory house style that the first 5 minutes after every commercial break is spent recounting the documentary so far. So for every 5 minutes of information you get 5 minutes of recap, 4 times an hour. If this forthcoming 2 hour extravaganza about Mohammed is anything like the dreadful Secrets of the Dead (which wants to be Meet the Ancestors when it grows up) the audience will be asleep long before the Angel Gibreel descends.
Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at August 22, 2005 3:25 PM
Granny, another cracking comment!!
Skidd, I hope that he does not as I get a lot of information from many of the posters and of course some cracking comments from people like Granny Weatherwax which tend to bring a smile to this Brits face.
Lisa Its hard to say but 13% of the population in the North-West is Muslim, many came over to work in the mills, so there are large populations all over that area.
Ethnic Minorities in Manchester
The inner city district of Manchester is a multicultural centre with a significant ethnic minority comprising 12.6% of the district population. The largest group is Pakistani (3.8%). Sizeable Pakistani populations are also to be found in the neighbouring districts of Oldham (4.1%) and Rochdale (5.5%). A large Indian population (5.2%) lives in neighbouring Bolton. Significantly, one in eight of all Pakistanis and one in twelve of all Bangladeshis in Britain reside in Greater Manchester. This cultural diversity is expected to increase over time, given existing trends.
http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/whatsnew.html
Posted by: Daffersd at August 22, 2005 3:53 PM
Lisa:
Interesting news item. Where it works in favour of jihaddists lawyers will talk about their individual freedom, and where it works in favour of Muslims as a group, lawyers will find justification in curtailing the freedom of non-Muslims.
It's one thing to want to invoke laws like this as an attempt to address the issue of drunkeness and disorderliness in the UK -- which I have read on this side of the Atlantic as being a significant problem -- and quite another to suggest Islamists can rely on this to justify their contempt for "the other's" supposed iniquitous behaviour.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at August 22, 2005 3:56 PM
It's time to get old school on dat a**......
And when I vest my flashing sword
And my hand takes hold in judgement
I will take vengeance upon mine enemies
And I will repay those who hase me
O Lord, raise me to Thy right hand
And count me amoung Thy saints
Whosoever shed last blood.
By man shall his blood be shed.
For immunity of god make he the man.
Destroy all that which is evil.
So that which is good may flourish.
And I shall count thee amoung my favoured sheep.
And you shall have the protection of all the angels in heaven.
Never shall innocent blood be shed.
Yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.
The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeaful striking hammer of god.
In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti
at August 22, 2005 4:44 PM
Pedestrian Infidel - thank you for that excellent reference list.
Re the BBC program - I couldn't figure out exactly where the video was (computer dunce here) but did read through the comments and this was the best, from "Rabia, Glasgow":
"Also i believe in humans coming before religion. Brin Kasinathan, Harrow, London." Precisely. Mr John Ware was asking all the questions that should be asked and and explained. Loved the programme. It was clear that Mr Ware was not questioning Islam but he was questioning those groups claiming to have a big representation of muslims behind them (not true) into being open what they are really stand for and what their true position is. As a human being who happens to be Muslim some of their stance is unethical and this needs to be brought to the forefront. Well done to Mr Ware in his efforts."
Now how hard was that? Why didn't more Muslim posters simply come forward and say that the MCB doesn't represent them (assuming it doesn't?)? No, instead what we got was the typical victim whining from nearly every Muslim poster.
If the comments section does shut down and many of the regular posters here wander off into other mainstream blogs to express their views, be prepared (in case you didn't already know) to confront tons of people trying to "protect" Muslims from criticism. Mostly liberals but many conservatives too. Be prepared for it to get really ugly. There seems to be a prevailing view out there that criticizing Islam and calling Muslims to SELF-REFLECT and SELF-CRITICIZE, is in some bizarre way tantamount to calling for the genocide of a billion people.
Ludicrous. Muslims most of all need to join the human race in their capacity to look at and acknowledge the role THEY have played in human history with respect to violation of human rights, naked imperialism and so on - just like Americans, just like Europeans and everyone else.
The rest of the world isn't going to tolerate this self-pity and self-delusion anymore. The long and short of it is that Muslims need to grow the hell up in order to join the rest of the human race and if they can't do it on their own, then it will be up to the remaining human beings on the planet to apply TOUGH LOVE.
Posted by: Caroline at August 22, 2005 7:32 PM
This is my first posting to J-W/D-W. The article below appeared in today's London 'Guardian'. Madelaine Bunting is a dhimmi columnist who regularly writes with a sly sophistry that absolves Muslims from any of the unpleasant facets of their own teachings or intentions. Despite writing to her in the past when she has written articles in a similar vein to the one below, she has never replied, despite the fact that I have always used a very moderate tone when attempting to refute some of her more treacherous assertions about Muslims and Islam. I hope that there will be members of this forum who can write to the Guardian with contrary evidence concerning her assertion that Mawdudi never advocated violence. She also elides craftily around the Islamic concept of dhimmitude.
>
To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go to http://www.guardian.co.uk
>
>Throwing mud at Muslims
>Branding moderates as extremists will have disastrous consequences
>Madeleine Bunting
>Monday August 22 2005
>The Guardian
>
>
>A campaign is being orchestrated through the media to destroy the credibility of many of the most important Muslim institutions in Britain, including the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). The impact of this campaign - in the Observer and particularly in John Ware's Panorama documentary last night - will be a powerful boost for the increasingly widespread view that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim: underneath, "they" are all extremists who are racist, contemptuous of the west, and intent on a political agenda.
>
>A legitimate and much-needed debate among British Muslims about a distinctive expression of Islam in a non-Muslim country has been hijacked and poisonously distorted. Journalists need to be very careful: we are entering a new era of McCarthyism and, if we are not to be complicit, we need to be scrupulously responsible and conscientious in unravelling the complexity of Islam in its many spiritual and political interpretations in recent decades.
>
>The central charge of the campaign is that the MCB, its secretary general, Sir Iqbal Sacranie, and some of its most important affiliates - such as the Islamic Foundation in Leicester, the Muslim Association of Britain and the East London Mosque - condone or even actively promote ideas which, as Ware claimed in Panorama, "feed extremism"; such ideas are a "slippery slope", which "people who become extremists start to go down".
>
>This reflects a growing paranoia evident on the pages of tabloids and in government about "preachers of hate" and "hate literature". It's a paranoia which chooses to ignore that the main inspiration for British Muslim extremists is not their local mosques but television footage of Palestine and Iraq.
>
>So what are those ideas that feed extremism? Ware veered erratically from the McCarthyite absurd to some legitimate accusations. First on the charge sheet were examples of the former: the "conviction that Islam is a superior faith and culture which Christians and Jews in the west are conspiring to undermine", and a "distaste for western secular culture". This is ridiculous; I've yet to meet a member of any faith who doesn't believe in the superiority of their beliefs, while fear of being undermined is similarly common. Since when has "distaste" become a cause for suspicion?
>
>On the other hand, where the campaign makes a legitimate accusation is that there is a virulent strain of anti-semitism and anti-Christian sentiment that appears in some Saudi-influenced strands of Islam. Ware points out that a Saudi imam invited to the East London Mosque had preached in just such terms in Saudi Arabia in sermons subsequently published on the web.
>
>But alongside such troubling points, Ware launched an attack on the influential Pakistani political philosopher Mawlana Mawdudi with some sly editing of quotes. A key figure in the 50s, Mawdudi advocated that Muslims look to Islam, not the west, to build their post-colonial nations. He used anti-western, revolutionary language (but never advocated violence) and was a quintessential product of his time. A younger generation of British-born Muslim thinkers find his ideas less relevant for a minority in the west.
>
>But Ware is not interested in that kind of context or in the process by which a distinctively British Islam is evolving from this legacy. The Leicester-based thinktank Islamic Foundation, founded in the 70s by a close associate of Mawdudi, and Sacranie, who openly acknowledges his huge debt to Mawdudi, are smeared by association.
>
>Ware is at his most McCarthyite when he challenges Sacranie to account for an imam in Leeds who is preaching that the war on terror is really a war on Islam. Ware insists that it is Sacranie's job to "disabuse" British Muslims of this view and put this imam "right". Ware laid down his own opinion and, with extraordinary presumption, demanded that Sacranie impose it on the Muslim community.
>
>In that short exchange, Ware revealed his lack of comprehension of the Muslim community. Sacranie only has as much power as the MCB affiliate organisations allow him - the idea of him putting an imam right is ridiculous. The tiny, volunteer-run MCB doesn't have the power to police the views of its disparate membership. Sacranie and the MCB have a tightrope to walk. On the one hand, the government and non-Muslim Britain are piling on the pressure that they deliver a law-abiding, loyal ethnic minority. On the other, an increasingly restless younger generation of Muslims criticise the MCB as far too moderate, a sell-out establishment stooge cosying up to Tony Blair.
>
>There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to make of the MCB and Sacranie - and Ware details some of them - such as Sacranie's reprehensible refusal to attend the Holocaust memorial service last January and his decision to attend a memorial service for the spiritual leader of Hamas, Sheikh Yassin. The MCB bears all the characteristics of a diverse migrant community's struggle to develop a common voice - and it makes plenty of mistakes. But Ware has thrown so much mud around in the course of his programme that much more of it will stick than is deserved.
>
>What is deeply troubling is how exacting British society is becoming of its Muslims. A new set of "cricket tests" are being imposed on British Muslims - they are expected to sign up enthusiastically to every aspect of western secular society and to jettison any part of their intellectual heritage that is critical of the west. They are expected to keep their faith entirely out of politics (yet faith plays a crucial role in US politics). Set the bar high enough and all will fail - the consequences of that on the streets of Luton and Bradford will be disastrous, and not just for Britain's 1.6 million Muslims.
>m.bunting@guardian.co.uk
>
>Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited
at August 22, 2005 8:04 PM
"What is deeply troubling is how exacting British society is becoming of its Muslims."
Poor pets. Ms Bunting has obviously missed her true calling in life - that of a nanny - or what we in the US call a "baby-sitter".
Posted by: Caroline at August 22, 2005 9:40 PM
Poor little lambs. Is "piling on the pressure that they deliver a law-abiding, loyal ethnic minority" too much for you then?
My heart bleeds for you. NOT.
Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at August 23, 2005 2:54 AM
My premise on the Panorama special is that it was a politically ordered 'shot across the bows' of the islamic community and leadership.
A real warning about how unwelcome muslims could feel if they don't 'play the game like Englishmen'.
Blair, after the smoke has cleared, has been made to look like a fool; his policies at home re islam have been shown as failures. His fury is at the islamic leaders who have mislead him, and he is showing his displeasure, and putting, for the first time, some pressure on them.
Of course, i think he'll fail, as will all 'reasonable' western leaders, because they do not understand islam or appreciate the numbers and confidence of the world wide islamic revolutionary movement.
That movement rides on islam/anti-americanism/anti-modernism/anti-western/anti-hindu/christian/jewish/everything except islam etc. and many local grievences; a potent brew attractive to many round the world.
I think we're still in round one. Blair's move, the Panorama special, at least shows that one leader has finally realized he's in the ring, and he's gotta fight.
at August 23, 2005 3:12 AM
My premise on the Panorama special is that it was a politically ordered 'shot across the bows' of the islamic community and leadership.
A real warning about how unwelcome muslims could feel if they don't 'play the game like Englishmen'.
Blair, after the smoke has cleared, has been made to look like a fool; his policies at home re islam have been shown as failures. His fury is at the islamic leaders who have mislead him, and he is showing his displeasure, and putting, for the first time, some pressure on them.
Of course, i think he'll fail, as will all 'reasonable' western leaders, because they do not understand islam or appreciate the numbers and confidence of the world wide islamic revolutionary movement.
That movement rides on islam/anti-americanism/anti-modernism/anti-western/anti-hindu/christian/jewish/everything except islam etc. and many local grievences; a potent brew attractive to many round the world.
I think we're still in round one. Blair's move, the Panorama special, at least shows that one leader has finally realized he's in the ring, and he's gotta fight.
at August 23, 2005 3:12 AM
My premise on the Panorama special is that it was a politically ordered 'shot across the bows' of the islamic community and leadership.
A real warning about how unwelcome muslims could feel if they don't 'play the game like Englishmen'.
Blair, after the smoke has cleared, has been made to look like a fool; his policies at home re islam have been shown as failures. His fury is at the islamic leaders who have mislead him, and he is showing his displeasure, and putting, for the first time, some pressure on them.
Of course, i think he'll fail, as will all 'reasonable' western leaders, because they do not understand islam or appreciate the numbers and confidence of the world wide islamic revolutionary movement.
That movement rides on islam/anti-americanism/anti-modernism/anti-western/anti-hindu/christian/jewish/everything except islam etc. and many local grievences; a potent brew attractive to many round the world.
I think we're still in round one. Blair's move, the Panorama special, at least shows that one leader has finally realized he's in the ring, and he's gotta fight.
at August 23, 2005 3:12 AM
Sorry for the triples. Veeeeeery slow system tonight.
Posted by: dby at August 23, 2005 3:15 AM
I suppose that if that keeps up, I'll have to get cable again just to see for myself. During the invasion of Iraq, one of the two PBS stations here switched to a 24 hour a day feed of BBC. I don't listen much to the radio overnight since Alistair Cooke passed away, the "Letters From America" were always fascinating.
Posted by: Mr. Christian at August 23, 2005 3:38 AM
I suppose that if that keeps up, I'll have to get cable again just to see for myself. During the invasion of Iraq, one of the two PBS stations here switched to a 24 hour a day feed of BBC News.
I don't listen much to the radio overnight since Alistair Cooke passed away, the "Letters From America" were always fascinating.
at August 23, 2005 3:41 AM
I had a long look at the Panorama site and of course the comments have been screened in the normal Al BBC manner.
There is the odd secular Brit that was let through to give the sembalence of Al BBC balance, there is one comment that talks about definition of innocent (surprised that was not screened out) and another which had obviously been edited
I think the Al BBC will soon be back to normal service, I expect a hard hitting exposee on Sharons plan for the West Bank in the near future...
Posted by: Daffersd at August 23, 2005 12:47 PM
Daffersd, all the best to you and your family.
Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at August 23, 2005 5:06 PM
Granny,
Thanks for the best wishes and all the best to you and your familly in return.
Posted by: Daffersd at August 24, 2005 4:40 AM
The resounding Silence from the so called moderates was deafening.
We really have to wake up in the UK and see what
on earth we are allowing to happen.
We require strong leaders capable of putting the majority interests of the voting public first and not the political/religous propoganda of what is a minority group.
Pandering to these pressure group appears to be a national pastime.
I am relauctant to admit it but I am afraid what Enoch Powell warned of is very much a coming reality
unless we show that tolerance is not a one way street.
Being till now a very unpolitical person I find it very unsettling to see our so leaders kow towing to this medieval rabble intent on introducing a way of life alien to our hard fought for Liberties and freedoms.
Blair you owe the indegenous peoples of Britain an unfaltering commitment to all who seek to maintain our civilised and humane society.
Get the finger out and sort this mess before it is too late....a good start would be to stop grant aiding these groups with a disproportinate amount of tax payers and lottery money and reintroduce a proper form of border control. It easier to get in and out of this country than to open a bank account ???? Get a grip and start to govern in the majorities favour !!
at August 26, 2005 5:30 AM
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