Pipes is really nailing our current position, and it's depressing. Such lack of knowledge in our leaders.

Posted by: pedestrian infidel at August 23, 2005 3:15 PM

pedestrian infidel:

Yah, I like the boiled frog reference. Check out my post on the previous thread where I relate some mind-blowing information on how the Turks demanded in the 30s that ethnic minorities take Turkish surnames in order to wipe out their ethnic identity. You can't make this stuff up!

Posted by: Mentat at August 23, 2005 3:23 PM

What do you guys think Pipe's point is with this article? Sometimes I don't understand what he is up to. Is he trying to encourage the Jihadis to simply be less violent because "moderate Islam is the solution". I guess it all boils down to whether you think moderate Islam is the solution. If the Muslims take over peacefully using the democratic process and demographic trends, will we be any better off? Would living as Dhimmis as part of a moderate Muslim state be better than dying in a religious war to boot the Muslims out? I can tell you what my answer would be. I would rather die fighting than submit to dhimmitude.

Posted by: Mentat at August 23, 2005 3:32 PM

Pipes has a point. The Islamists badly 'jumped the gun'. If they hung on for a bit demographics would have done the job for them. As it is I think their impatience could yet be prove the Wests' saving grace.

In a strange way the events in Europe disproves the much vaunted focus on the hereafter said to be such an integral part of Islamic spirituality. No Muslim alive today will live long enough to see a truly Islamic Europe. Not content to console themselves with the prospect of paradise they rage against this situation! Thus manifesting their dark designs.

I suppose we should be thankful!

Posted by: PJS1 at August 23, 2005 3:56 PM

Pipes is merely pointing out that non-violent radicals and terrorists share the same goal but the latter group's use of violence is throwing obstacles in the way of the first group's rise to power. The violence has to be stopped but at the same time we have to expose these non-violent radicals and their agenda. We have to make it very clear that islam has no place in politics, we have to make sure that Muslims will always remain a very small minority.

Although I think it might already be far too late for Europe.

Posted by: Leveller at August 23, 2005 4:03 PM

I think we are agreed that all groups of islamists have the same goal - whether they be radical, moderate, violent or illegal.

I would then posit another idea.

The Jihadis/illegals and the radicals/moderates operate in concert, each to advance islam in a manner that is best suited. No formal understanding is required - it is understood, that as the Jihadis/illegals have made the ultimate sacrifice, the living radical/moderates must make full use of that sacrifice. It is also this that sustains the Jihadis, as they go out in their final journey to harvest Infidel lives, that there sacrifice will not have been in vain.

OT, but well worth a read.

British Muslims forgetting their roots

Sunday's Panorama programme presented the wretched spectacle of Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, wriggling on a hook of his own making.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/08/23/do2302.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/08/23/ixopinion.html

Posted by: DP111 at August 23, 2005 4:10 PM

It is a valid point..

A. Islam has unvieled its true horrors to the world.

B. The west obviously Horrified tried to appease the islamists but stopped when all of the wonderful be-headings started.

C. Notice how clerics all over the muslim world have tried desperatly to state that a true muslim COULDN'T have done these things.
Instead stating this leave only two other plausible options.
Its a zionist plot to make islam look bad
Its a CIA plot for the same purpose.

D. The mention of the boiled eggs not noticing anything was upheld when a top islamic cleric stated "I wished they hadnt hit the us on 9/11" as we were making inroads and could have become dominate in 20 years or so..

So Pipes is on target but i disagree with the lawful side as i do not believe a TRUE muslim can assimilate with an Infidel culture..

Posted by: jingoist at August 23, 2005 4:27 PM

Daniel Pipes definitely has a great point there. Actually, I found my jaw dropping accidentally as I was reading along and going through his brilliant points in my mind :)

We are faced with two equally large evils — terrorism and Islamic expansion. I can't and actually fear to decide which one of them is lesser. I don't think any of them is.

What's worst, we wouldn't be here, in front of this choice today, if our leaders simply dared to recognize the threat of Islamic expansion and stop singing the dovish multiculturalism tune. Unfortunately, it takes live of hundreds of innocent people for them to start thinking about cultural incompatibility between Westerners and Muslims. And many of them still don't.

I fear that it is only when the ferocious Lebanese scenario begins to unfold in Europe that they will finally admit that multiculturalism was a failure.

-----------------------------
dolphin, CAGE co-founder.
http://www.acage.org

Posted by: dolphin at August 23, 2005 4:35 PM

Dolphin,

I think it's unfair to blame multiculturalsim for the failure of muslims to assimilate into western societies. Should we also condemn democracy for the same reason? Of course not. Let's put the blame where it really belongs, ISLAM. This religion prevents it's believers from befriending, trusting, and co-habitating peacefully with non-believers. Let's stop trying to find blame within ourselves and admit that OK, we got duped. Now let's sort this mess out,lets roll, and get 'er done!

Posted by: William The Crusader at August 23, 2005 5:31 PM

Posted by: Mentat at August 23, 2005 03:32 PM

Pipes has as most in the west do a built in guilt??

He Knows the true threat but like the woman whos husband was on the plane on 9/11 said she just couldn't get her head around the fact the plane was going to be crashed into a building??

That maybe her husbands plane would be different but it wasn't in the end??

http://www.lyricsmania.com/lyrics/luke_stricklin_lyrics_4657/other_lyrics_15191/american_by_god's_amazing_grace_lyrics_176315.html
American By God's Amazing Grace Luke Stricklin lyrics
Artist: Luke Stricklin
Album: Other Songs Lyrics
Title: American By God's Amazing Grace

Bottom of my boots sure are gettin' worn
there's a lot of holes in this faded uniform
My hands are black with dirt and so is my face
I aint never been to hell
but it couldn't be any worse than this place.
Tell my wife don't worry 'cause I know what to do
it makes you feel better sometimes, but don't know if it's true.
I know if I die it's just my time to go
but I pray to God every day that I may get back home.

Well when you've seen what I've seen
things don't seem so bad
quit worrying 'bout what you aint got, thank God for what you have
'Cause I could be raising my family in this place
but I was born an American
by Gods Amazing Grace.

For the last twelve months I've had a new address
the neighborhood smells like sewerage and the streets are lined with trash.
You never know what's gonna be the next thing to explode
but unlike these people, I have another home.
It breaks my heart to see these kids out on the streets
walking barefoot through the trash, diggin' for something to eat.
I give them what I got, just to let them know I care
and I thank God it's not my son that's standing there.

Well when you've seen what I've seen
things don't seem so bad
quit worrying 'bout what you aint got, thank God for what you have
'Cause I could be raising my family in this place
but I was born an American
by Gods Amazing Grace.

You want to talk about it, you better keep it short
cause I got a lot of lost time I gotta make up for.
Really don't care why Bush went in to Iraq
I know what I done there and I'm damn sure proud of that.
You got somethin' bad to say about the USA
you better save it for different ears 'less you want to crawl away.
And I laugh in your face when you say you've got it bad
until you've spent some time on the streets of Baghdad

Well when you've seen what I've seen
things don't seem so bad
quit worrying 'bout what you aint got, thank God for what you have
'Cause you could be raising your family in this place
but you were born in America, By God's Amazing Grace!!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Destroy ALL islamic terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

Posted by: Catherine at August 23, 2005 6:16 PM

The only really relevant point Pipes made is in the last paragraph of his web log: "We don't need to fight. We're taking over." Remember this well. That is their intention. Silence, whether enforced or voluntary, is tacit approval, giving in to the situation.

Posted by: epg at August 23, 2005 8:04 PM

Mentat speaks the truth.

I sometimes wonder about Pipes too.

Pipes believes in moderate Islam. I don't.

I don't want to be a dhimmi.

I'll be honest with you. As much as I'm angry at what happened in London, and New York, I'm also secretly happy that the terrorists have showed their hand, and woken up the west.

How many people would even come to JW if it wasn't for 9/11?

So what is Pipes complaining about?

Posted by: Voltaire at August 23, 2005 8:07 PM

Terrorism as a tactic has been used too soon. But the Infidels have proven themselves able to ignore most aspects of the Jihad, and to focus exclusively on that terrorism. This means that should the terrorism cease, or more likely, the plans for such attacks foiled or disrupted by Wester security services, there is the likelihood that all the other means of spreading Islam will continue -- including Da'wa, the use of money as a weapon of Jihad, propaganda to deflect criticism and understanding of Islam, and the most important, demographic conquest.

Infidel heearts and minds need to be won -- won over to the understanding that Islam is relentless, that today's "moderate" cannot easily be distinguished from the "immoderate" Muslim and that, in any case, the "modereate" (that "moderation" often based on almost wilful ignorance of Islam, or on non-observance of much of what Islam commands), can at a moment's notice turn into "immoderate" Islam.

Islam is a permanent menace -- to science, to art, to intellectual freedom, to freedom of conscience which, as all sorts of thinkers (e.g., Henri Bayle) recognized, was the most essential freedom of all.

Those who have learned what Islam is all about have a duty to convey this understanding convincingly to others, who may still not wish to believe the awful truth about the tenets of Islam, the history of Islamic conquest, the stunting of mental growth and moral development are the observable results of Islam.

Posted by: Hugh at August 23, 2005 8:14 PM

What Daniel Pipes has described here the major islamic virus, the muslim brotherhood and its army, hamas. The name, muslim brotherhood, should be on the lips of everyone around the globe who treasures life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Whether it's by the sword, the pen or tongue,
islam continues to plague the earth,infecting more and more humans until so many die that we are forced out of our denial.

Posted by: the poetess at August 23, 2005 8:45 PM

Fools like Bin Laden and Zarqawi played their cards too soon, and gave the game away.

Islam breeds megalomanaical dogmatic tyrants, following in the camel-dung-covered footsteps of the original perfect pedophile, Mo (pb&j).

Pipes misunderstands Islam in that respect.

They cannot restrain themselves.

Their 'religion' forbids it, if they are honest with their 'faith'.

So they will always shoot their wad too soon.

The creed does not teach humility, only servility.

And the slave is the most vicious when given 'freedom for vengeance'.

The 'moderates' will never be able to hold back their extremist brothers as they riot for Allah.

This is to the advantage of the freedom-loving West and its allies.

Whenever we doze off into wishful multicultural moral relativistic thinking about the 'religion of peace', the Muslim militants will blow up a bunch of kids or behead a captured diplomat and their violent mayhem will accidentally rouse the daydreamers.

Their inability to patiently destroy us will be our salvation.

Cold comfort, but something.

Posted by: BigSleep at August 23, 2005 10:14 PM

Yup, it seems the bombs went off too early in the UK, undermining their plans and that Panorama programme has hammered several nails in their coffin too. It was fun to see Sir Iqbal stuttering away when the reporter asked him "You're not seriously suggesting that a democracy should ban books are you?" when referring to the Salman Rushdie affair. Sir Iqbal let the cat out of the bag when he said "but we didn't have a law in those days against incitement to religious hatred."

Posted by: londongirl at August 24, 2005 3:08 AM

Pipes is dead on and it's only a matter of time before more non-Muslims catch up with him.

It's why so many Muslims in the UK are so glad to see the back of Omar Bakri. Not for the reason most British people think.

http://www.petitiononline.com/NotoOBM/petition.html

Note the intro - they can barely bring themselves to endorse the petition in the first place.

Posted by: Effractor at August 24, 2005 5:07 AM

From the petition Effractor linked to:

"You have single-handedly sought to destroy good community relations and have been an obstacle to the progress of British Muslims in becoming integral citizens who live, as stated in the shariah, according to the law of this land"

Can someone clarify for me the reference to Sharia as used in this context?

Posted by: Caroline at August 24, 2005 6:08 AM

To which we say terrorism Islam terms it as a mean to achieve its goal. In his earlier article one year ago, Dr Daniel Pipes had some apprehensions (Is Turkey going to be Islamist) about Erdogan's intention. He was very much right at that time and he is right today also.
Radical Islam has two distinct ways to act but they are complimentary to each other. Lawful way is lawful only till time is not ripe for terrorism. In India we have seen how Islamists exploited the lacuna of constitution in their favour by applying method to create political pressure groups and getting more privilege for them.When they got their influence in state institutions started supporting violent Jihad. Ultimately Radical Islam wants to create its utopian world of Khilafat.
Every time muslims worldwide say Quran does not teach violence. If it is true then it mean those who are indulged in terrorist activities are violating Islam. But not one muslim cleric has stood up to condemn Osama bin laden as violator of Islam because they know Laden is fullfiling their dreams only. Political Islam or Radical Islam with lawful way is contrary phrase. You cannot expect Islam to leave its theological base of violent Jihad, it is its core.
Present scenario of terrorism has stimulated thought process in muslims worldwide. It is true in some sense, but they are in a dilemma. On the one hand they want to reject terrorism as a mean of propagation of ideology, on the other side they do not have courage to talk about the reformation of Quranic verses. Until the way will come out, the whole humanity will suffer this uncivilised way of propagation of ideology.
It is the need of the hour to promote those elements within Islam who have courage to talk about reformation in Quran and about establishing some contemporary system which have some universal principles of co-existence.
Today what Islam is doing is same what it has done in seventh century but world did not prepare itself to counter it. To every democracy it appears as a sudden threat. Democracies are trying to curb debate on this subject. In America,Britain,India, those who tried to speak frankly about this matter were forced to be silent. This approach will not end this problem but it will boost the morale of Islamists to work freely within our democratic system.This war cannot be fought with law &order only. It needs some courage from intellectuals and states also. Until muslims will not feel pressure from every side to reform them they will not initiate, because reformation for them is to move away from core of their religion in some way.
In this period of war intellectuals and states should change some of their standards.

Posted by: Amitabh tripathi at August 24, 2005 7:06 AM

1): Ballot Box

2): Breeding

3): Bomb

By these means their war is waged.

Posted by: albion at August 24, 2005 12:21 PM