Is this the Italian cathedral with the fresco of "Mohammad in hell" that has the Islamic Imperialists peeved?

Posted by: BigSleep at August 27, 2005 10:34 AM

The NYT has been playing the dhimmi for a long, long time--as does a large poriton of the mainstream media. CAIR takes advantage of the ignorance of infidels.

Posted by: WatchfulEye at August 27, 2005 11:32 AM

No, BigSleep, that is Bologna, a much bigger city. And, to be fair, the only person who called for its destruction is the discredited Adel Smith, whom most Muslims reject. But it is true, as the Times admit, that little Cremona has been the place where some serious nasties have gathered. Italian newspapers have long been reporting on them, and Italian authorities jailing and deporting them. Why they should choose this particular town, heaven knows.

The point, which the Times only hints at, is this: like much of Italy's industrial north, Cremona teems with immigrants from all parts of the world - Africans, East Europeans, Philipinos, Indians, Latin Americans. The only minorities that makes serious and permanent trouble are the Muslim ones. And a lot of Italians have realized that.

Posted by: Paolo at August 27, 2005 12:45 PM

There is no understanding -- none -- in the article about what life is like in Italy, or what Muslim migrants, whose distribution is now capillary, extending into the smallest towns, have done to the quality of existence, in a thousand big and little ways. There are other immigrants, including Chinese who have a whole quarter in Rome, and who no doubt are economic rivals (think of what is happening to the silk trade in Como). There is the new African tribe of the Vu Cumpra (You Buy?), who are to be found everywhere from St. Mark's in Venice to the newly-named Galleria Alberto Sordi in Rome, with the belts and the bags and the shoes and all the rest.

But there is no force so dangerous, so resistant, so insistent on promoting itself, on exhibiting not the slightest interest either in Italy or in Infidels generally -- except insofar as this may now be feigned in order to remain in Italy. But one has reason to believe that the works of Oriana Fallaci, that are so remarkable and have had such a great and untranslatable impact, on Italy (in the train stations, or in the lowliest bookshop, even at newspaper kiosks up and down this or that corso, you can pick up La Rabbia e l'Orgoglio, La Forza della Ragione, Intervista se stessa e L'Apocalisse).

Of course Magdi Allam, still tied to Islam, still calling himself a Muslim, is good mainly on the subject of terrorism, and not on Islam generally, for he cannot bring himself, given his affection for his nice, simple Muslim parents in Egypt, to be as denunicatory of Islam, as monitory, as the outspoken Fallaci. Indeed, he has openly parted company with her on what he characterizes as her "extreme" views of Islam. Actually her views are no different than those of almost any intelligent ex-Muslim -- such as Ibn Warraq or Ali Sina -- and Allam's taking offense here offers one more example of how the most "moderate" of "moderate Muslims" still cannot bring himself to tell the truth the way an ex-Muslim can, and so has value in informing Infidels only up to a point, at which point we must turn to the ex-Muslims.

The "nearly Italian" Muslim who is made much of in The New Duranty Times story clearly thinks that in order to retain their position, the Muslims will now have to do all the things, or at least go through the motions of doing the things, that they should have done beginning long ago, and that certainly had, as their last sell-by date, the afternoon of September 11, 2001. It is now too late. Too many people now understand what Islam is all about. Islam itself is the problem. Infidels cannot rely on the existence of Muslims who do not fully accept or believe or observe the tenets of Islam. That is a danger to their civilization, their way of life, to themselves and their descendants, that they simply need not accept.

And the behavior of Muslims, including the attacks (on statuary in the Piazza del Popolo in Rome) and planned attacks (that Bologna fresco depicting Muhammad) on art show that there is, beyond the society, beyond the individuals who make up that society, there is a real danger to the art of Western civilization, two-thirds of which is still in Italy.

The Italians cannot afford to permit a large Muslim presence -- and must do everything to make Islam unwelcome in Italy. The bet that donating seven acres of prime Rome real estate for the building of the gigantic Rome Mosque scarcely a mile from the Vatican, was lost. There was no return gesture, no permission to hold Christian services in Saudi Arabia, no lessening of persecution of Christians in Muslmi lands. That was not surprising. Only steady and implacable hostility and pressure, on the part of Infidels, will ever win any concessions. Any concessions on their part merely convince Muslims of their inevitable triumph.

And that triumph is not a matter of bombs and tanks. It can take place through demographic conquest, and through the conducting of Da'wa campaigns, on the most vulnerable members of Infidel societies (prisoners, other immigrant groups, the economically and psychically marginal, even Infidel girls looking for love in all the wrong -- i.e., Muslim -- places). This has to stop. All Muslim migration to Italy must stop, and then be reversed.

And if it takes in Italy, or anywhere else, something along the lines of the Benes Decree that the tolerant and far-seeing government of Czechoslovakia under Masaryk and Eduard Benes put into force in 19436 -- well, so be it. One cannot stand on ceremony and simply wail that "there is nothing we can do."

Oh yes there is. Plenty.

Posted by: Hugh at August 27, 2005 2:00 PM

Kemal Nawash of the Free Muslims worked very hard this past spring in Washington DC to have a rally of peaceful Muslims against terror. He had about 50 participants, most who were NOT Muslims. It seems that similar efforts for rallies and prayer services against terrorism are having about the same rate of success in Cremona. I am certain that if someone polled the Muslims in Cremona, most would believe that the 9/11 attack and the British attacks were A)not done by Muslims but by Jews and B)would justify most Islamic terror attacks because of Iraq or Palestine. As for Tasmir Oursman, the immigrant from Senegal who finds Cremona such a racist city, I would suggest that he buy a one-way return ticket to Senegal ASAP.

Posted by: maryrose at August 27, 2005 2:08 PM

Paolo,

"the only person who called for its destruction is the discredited Adel Smith, whom most Muslims reject."

I notice this blithe remark often (usually in ostensibly neutral newspaper reports), where the sentiments of "most Muslims" are claimed to be moderate, without a shred of evidence offered. (The logic seems to be one of sheer fiat -- "Most Muslims MUST be moderate; therefore, voila! they are!) Where is your evidence that "most Muslims" reject Adel Smith?

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at August 27, 2005 2:58 PM

In Australia the majority of the government and the populace haven't yet woken up.
An interview with Andrew Denton with a muslim couple was peppered with remarks on the "difficulties " of living in Australia.
The woman in the interview had been "privileged" to have lived in Saudi Arabia and have schooling there.
This schooling would have been overwhelmingly Koranic, as all school in Saudi is.The brainwashing starts early and continues for the whole of life.
While the couple in the interview made noises about disliking violence they also objected to having to intigrate.

Posted by: marilyn at August 27, 2005 4:09 PM

Is it a coincidence that, throughout Europe, the "moderates" are becoming more outspoken with the rising threat of deportation?

And marilyn, that woman may have been priviledged to have lived and studied in Saudi Arabia, but she certainly was not priviledged enough to be graced with Saudi citizenship.

Posted by: jay at August 27, 2005 4:55 PM

A town in Belgium is now fining any who wear a burqa.
From an article in the print version of the Daily Express.

Apparantly it is illegal in Belgium to hide your face. Cant find any link to it.
-------------------------------------------

Re: Moderate Muslim

Over the last few years there has been a frantic search to find the lost tribe of moderate muslims. So far without much success. There have been reports of sightings but really no firm evidence that will hold up.

Now I have been aware of the civilisational threat of Islam since June 1967. Yet till around 2001, I had never come across a reference to moderate muslims. Googling the term "moderate muslim", the overwhelming hits were post 9/11. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the term "moderate muslim" is a very recent invention, and has no real historical basis. It also appears that "moderate muslim" is an invention of Daniel Pipes.

Posted by: DP111 at August 27, 2005 5:21 PM

I made up my mind not to have much more to do with the comments section, but when I am as good as called a liar and a dhimmi by some ignoramus who does not even know who I am, all bets are off. Dr.Pepper, have the goodness not to put words in my mouth or to try and teach me about my own country. I never said that the Muslim majority in Italy is moderate: to the contrary, the country's main Muslim organization is, as Magdi Allam has been pointing out, nothing more than an emanation of the Muslim Brotherhood. Nonetheless Adel Smith is nothing more than a mouthy maverick with no constituency except among easily excited media folks. Now shut up and try and learn something before you start teaching your grandmother.

Posted by: Paolo at August 27, 2005 5:37 PM

Paolo,

I didn't call you a "liar". You could easily simply be sincerely deluded -- one doesn't have to be a "liar" to be sincerely deluded.

If "most Muslims" reject Adel Smith, are they doing so out of their extremism?

The reasonable inference to draw from your unsubstantiated claim (and it remains unsubstantiated in your second, tart, retort, even if it is to gain credibility by simply being repeated) that "most Muslims" reject Adel Smith is that this majority is, at the very least, more moderate than Adel Smith, if not sufficiently moderate for us not to be as concerned as we would be were they to support Adel Smith.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at August 27, 2005 5:51 PM

This is by far not the first instance of the dhimmitude in the MSM.

When, in the wake of Theo van Gogh's murder, a few isolated attacks against Muslims and their structures took place in Holland, the reaction was EXACTLY the same.

Back then, the BBC — who just must be a role model for the New Duranty Times - published an article in which it elaborated extensively on how the Dutch (sic!) have lost their much-praised tolerance and how unjustly and unlawfully the poor Muslim minorities were being targeted.

The BBC's piece was so full of glaring omissions and inaccuracies, that my colleague couldn't resist the temptation to write a review, in which he would ask a few rational, clear-eyed questions, the questions that BBC has apparently failed to ask itself.

It is available here: http://www.acage.org/reviews/?id=0000 and I urge anyone concerned to have a look at it, for this article is an unequivocal testimony to the fact that today the dhimmitude has permeated the Mainstream Media on all fronts.

There is no chance of winning the war on jihad until this changes.

-----------------------------
dolphin, CAGE co-founder.
http://www.acage.org

Posted by: dolphin at August 27, 2005 7:23 PM

Hi Marilyn

I saw "Enough Rope" with Andrew Denton too.

The thing that made me laugh, was at the end when the muslim couple invited him to have dinner or whatever at their place, and he invited them to a barbecue and a can of Fosters (Fosters for those who don't know, is a brand of beer), at his place, in an effort to prove that these muslims were Aussies just like you and me.

I realised then, that Andrew Denton was really clueless, since muslims don't drink alcohol.

Posted by: Voltaire at August 27, 2005 8:09 PM

Dr.Pepper: anyone who did not actually insist on getting in a retort, any retort, at all costs, would understand from what I said that Adel Smith is a maverick. A one-man-band. Is that too difficult for you to understand? In the grand old days of Communist tyranny and massacre, Enver Hodja quarrelled first with the murderous Tito, then with the mass-murdering Soviet Union, then with the multi-mass-murdering Red Chinese, till he was left alone carrying the flag of his own imagined Communist purity. Did that make him a moderate? Or, for that matter, the various gangs of murderers with which he quarrelled? So Adel Smith is a self-interested, self-centred maverick, rejected by the Italian league of muslim communities, although both he and they can fairly be described as Islamofascist. You happy now, or do I have to use words of one syllable?

And for the record, what pissed me off was you putting words in my mouth and trying to teach me about my own country.

Posted by: Paolo at August 28, 2005 4:38 AM

We are in the same conundrum as the lead up to World War 2 when, faced with a serious fascist threat, the world's leaders preferred to roll over and appease the fascist dictatorship of Hitler. In the West, we are facing once again the same fascist threat, this time in the guise of an expansionist, proseletysing religion which if empowered will strip us all of human dignity and rights, destroy our civilisation and reduce it to ashes. Unfortunately, there is no leader of the calibre of Churchill to lead the way.

Posted by: londongirl at August 28, 2005 8:29 AM

Paolo,

I'm still trying to get a handle on what makes Adel Smith's crankiness unrelated to the general Islamic mentality. For example, his legal agitation to get a nursery and primary school near L'Aquila, to display a symbol from the Koran alongside the crucifix in his children's classrooms (on which the judge ruled that the crucifixes showed "the unequivocal desire by the state, when it comes to public education, to place the Catholic religion at the centre of the universe", in disregard for other religions [!]), would fit smoothly and comfortably into the narrow collective mind of Muslims.

Or when Adel Smith "tore [a crucifix] off the wall [of a hospital room where his mother lay] "and threw it out the window", and later "told officials at the San Salvatore Hospital that his mother "will not die in a room where there is a crucifix" -- this again seems perfectly in harmony with the attitude of Muslims everywhere, whether they admit it or not. If a moderate Muslim cleric gravely and suavely insists that a "good Muslim would never throw a crucifix out the window of a hospital where their mother lay ill, because we wish to abide peacefully by all customs and religions of the world," he would most likely just be blowing smoke up our asses in an attempt to placate our concerns about the screaming intolerance his religion shows daily, yearly, millennially, everywhere it reigns now and has reigned in the past.

Or the fresco in the Bologna Cathedral depicting Mohammed in Hell. What self-respecting Muslim would countenance and tolerate a work of art that shows Mohammed in Hell? They won't even tolerate a work of art that shows Mohammed, period. Look at the worldwide support among Muslims high and low for the death fatwa against Salman Rushdie -- and his "blasphemy" was far milder than this fresco. (The same goes for Adel Smith's call to have "the teaching of Dante be suspended in Italian schools in immigrant areas". No self-respecting Muslim would want that filthy kaffir Dante who put Mohammed in Hell to pollute their homes, mosques or schools.) (Look at the mass-murderous arsonist Nigerian Muslim riots over a reporter's comment that Mohammed would have liked to marry Miss Universe.)

One website of "moderate" "secular" Islam quotes one measly Muslim "head":

"In Bologna Nabil Baioni, head of the moderate Islamic Cultural Centre, said that not all Muslims in the city shared the view that the fresco should be removed. “I have lived here for 40 years and have never noticed the image before now,” he said. “It’s rather difficult to see anyway. I think this Smith represents only himself.” "

One Muslim head of a "Cultural Centre" means nothing when attempting to adduce evidence of a supposed "majority" of Muslims. I found a similar statement in a story about the Muslim extremist (i.e., honest Muslim) cleric Abu Bakr in Australia. The neutral news report concludes by saying, "But Abu Bakr's views do not represent those of most Muslims. At least one prominent Melbourne Muslim leader told PM he had advised Abu Bakr to moderate his views. Sheikh Fehmi Naji el-Iman of Melbourne's Preston Mosque..."

Well, I spent an hour Googling this "prominent Melbourne Muslim leader", and for the first 55 minutes, I found nothing but soothing "inter-faith" "dialogues" he has participated in over the years. Then I struck gold. His own mosque, the Preston Mosque in Melbourne, has been under investigation because of members who have been conducting paramilitary training in rudimentary camps out in the wilderness nearby. When asked about this, Sheikh Fehmi Naji el-Iman stated something along the lines of "well, we have so many members in our mosque, between 50 and 100, so it's hard to keep track of everybody..."

So again, what exactly is it about Adel Smith that puts him outside of the Muslim mainstream -- other than his uncouth CANDOR?

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at August 28, 2005 4:32 PM

Dr. Pepper:

I tried to yahoo "Abu Bakr" who is also "Abdul Nacer Benbrika", but couldn't find anything. Also little is available Mohamed Abdalla or Chaaban Omran, Federation of Austr. Muslim Students and Youth, NSW Branch.

In an article in the "Australian" from last Saturday, little moonbat-staff writer Trudy Harris gives much credit to the 'innocent, angry Muslims..." (seems they are always angry for not getting enough compassion!)

" We know tolerance and compassion. What other Australian values are they talking about?"

Posted by: Terminator at August 28, 2005 8:29 PM

Terminator,

When I Googled "abu bakr" and "australia" I got plenty of returns. Try Google.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at August 29, 2005 12:29 AM

Sudan slave 'crucified'
by master

After being nailed to a board by his master and left for dead – the last in a series of torturous acts – a Sudanese Dinka boy escaped from his bondage and lived to tell his horrific story.

The story of "Joseph," a Christian, is told in a recent newsletter of the Persecution Project Foundation, an organization that monitors Christian persecution in Africa.

PPF's Brad Phillips recently returned from visiting Joseph, who originally was sold into slavery at age 7 in 1987.

"I had the privilege of spending a day with this amazing boy who is now called Joseph," Phillips wrote. "I spoke with him, I interviewed him, I saw his scars, and I saw his eyes. What I saw moved me, and still haunts me."

Joseph (photos: Persecution Project Foundation)

Phillips explains that since the 1980s, the Muslim National Islamic Front government has sanctioned the taking of Christians and animists from the south part of the nation to be sold to Muslims as slaves in the north. The two sides have been engaged in a civil war for several years.

As a 7-year-old, Joseph, then called Santino Garang, was sold to his master, Ibrahim. Though Joseph was given an Arab name, Ibrahim referred to him only by the pejorative "Abid," which means black slave, writes Phillips. For ten years, Joseph remained in bondage to his master.

"During his enslavement …," Phillips wrote, "he was often beaten, tortured and abused by his Arab master. African slaves, especially Christians, are viewed as lower than animals.

"Joseph was raised Christian. His desire to worship was mocked by his master, who told him every day for 10 years that he had no business worshipping since he was of no more value than a donkey."

One Sunday morning, Joseph heard the hymn singing of a Christian service. He joined into the worship, remembering church services from when he was a young boy.

While Joseph was at church, some of the camels he was in charge of escaped, and his master flew into a rage. Ibrahim, Phillips writes, "swore he would kill Joseph and do to him what had been done to Jesus ... he would crucify him.

Joseph's scarred legs

"After brutally beating Joseph on the head and all over his body, the master laid him out on a wooden plank. He then nailed Joseph to the plank by driving nine-inch nails through his hands, knees and feet. He then poured acid on Joseph's legs to inflict even greater pain, and finally left him for dead."

Miraculously, Joseph did not die, even though he lay on the plank for seven days. He survived through the kindness of his master's son, who brought him food and water, and eventually took him to a medical facility.

"In case you are wondering," wrote Phillips, "no criminal charges were brought against Joseph's master, because he acted within his 'rights' under currently practiced 'sharia law.' To say that Christians are second-class citizens in much of the Islamic world (not just the Sudan) is a cruel understatement."

After Joseph returned from the hospital, his master saw little value in him since he was crippled from the nails being driven through his knees. Joseph was "redeemed" by Christian slave redeemers who arranged his return home to his village in Bahr el Gazal.

When he arrived back in his home village, the elders thought he should have a new name, so they named him after Joseph of the Bible, who was sold into slavery but later was used mightily by God.

Wrote Phillips: "Joseph still desperately needs your prayers. By God's grace Joseph survived kidnapping, the loss of his parents, ten years of enslavement, and near death by crucifixion. But while Joseph is free in body, he is still in great pain physically and emotionally. He bears the marks of his crucifixion in his body and the scars of his torment in his soul. He is wounded and broken in his spirit. And his is haunted by the memories of hundreds of other children from his community who perished or remained enslaved in the north.

"Joseph is one of a small number of people in the 21st century who knows what it means to be crucified because of his Christian faith. But the reality is that hundreds of thousands of our fellow Christians in the Sudan have been enslaved, driven from their homes, hunted and murdered by devoted followers of Islam. This war of Islamic cruelty has raged for centuries in the Sudan. Please remember our Sudanese brethren in your prayers, and do all you can to aid us in the relief of their suffering."

Posted by: have_mercy at August 30, 2005 12:20 AM

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37913

Posted by: have_mercy at August 30, 2005 12:20 AM