I am shocked that Jack Straw would say that. I thought he had some intelligence. And the US is pushing for Turkey to join is madness. What a bunch of dhimmis and dimwits.

Posted by: pedestrian infidel at September 8, 2005 10:06 PM

The eastern European nations said exactly the same thing centuries ago when they let the Mongols in, I am sure. And millions were subsequently slaughtered in jihads.

Let the Turks in and many MORE are likely to get hurt.

Those who give in to blackmail inevitably find that the mail does nothing but get blacker. Never give in to blackmailers. Those who blackmail always continue to blackmail and up the ante.

If Mr. Straw doesn't know this at his age, then he's a 'bloomin' idiot, mate.'

Posted by: pythagoras at September 8, 2005 10:21 PM

I need more information, I simply find it hard to believe that Jack "the last" Straw is caving into the threat of violence by Islamists and calling for the levees to be dismantled from Turkey so that the flood of muslims can now permeate the EU with their grandious plan to take over the western world and make everyone a muslim .

Posted by: Mackie at September 8, 2005 11:21 PM

"I simply find it hard to believe that Jack "the last" Straw is caving into the threat of violence by Islamists..."
-- from a posting above

Here is a sample of what historians think of Jack Straw:

Your view of history is bunk, academics tell Jack Straw
By Michael Paterson
(Filed: 16/11/2002)

The Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, was attacked by historians and other academics for blaming many of the world's crises on the legacy of British imperialism.

Mr Straw said in an interview with the New Statesman: "A lot of the problems that we are having to deal with now - I have to deal with now - are a consequence of our colonial past."

His remarks on Iraq, Israel, Kashmir, Afghanistan and Zimbabwe were condemned by Conservatives but backed by Downing Street and given partial approval by Liberal Democrats.

Yesterday, academics pointed to flaws in his pronouncements. Prof Niall Ferguson, the Oxford don whose history of the British Empire will be shown on Channel 4 in January, said Mr Straw was guilty of "chanting the old National Union of Students refrain 'we are to blame' ".

He said: "Nobody pretends that the history of the British Empire is unblemished but it is reckless for politicians to suggest that problems are the consequence of British colonialism."

It was too easy to forget the positive aspects of the Empire. "In the 19th and into the 20th century, it brought a quarter of the world's land surface free trade, the rule of law and non-corrupt administration and in many places the British were successful in sowing seeds of parliamentary government.

" The situation in sub-Saharan Africa "has got much worse since decolonisation", he added. "To say the British are to blame for problems in Zimbabwe is laughable.

"If we encourage people to blame problems on the British, it becomes a wonderful excuse for dreadful foreign governments to cover up their own faults."

He said there was "no doubt that the Empire was wound up too quickly after the Second World War" and said America's role was open to question.

"Should the US have exerted so much pressure on Britain? Roosevelt and then Truman were ideologically opposed to imperialism and America put the financial squeeze on us so that our debts became a pressing problem and the Empire became untenable and unravelled too quickly."

The historian Andrew Roberts, who will present the television series Secrets of Leadership on BBC next year, conceded that problems in Kashmir today stemmed from the drawing of boundaries after the Second World War. But he but said the problems could have been averted had Churchill been prime minister.

He said: "Mr Straw seems to be forgetting it was the Attlee Labour government that scuttled the Empire and pulled Britain out of India in a hurry, leaving a mess. Churchill stood up in Parliament and spoke about his fears that Mountbatten's timetable for partitioning India was wrong - and that has become the view of most historians."

The writer and historian Conor Cruise O'Brien said Mr Straw's views were "idiotic" and accused him of "guilty screams about the past".

"Britain did not create the divisions among people groups in any of its former colonies - many of them were hundreds of years old - and Britain could not have eliminated them during the end of colonialism."

Barry Buzan, an international relations reader at the London School of Economics, said the Foreign Secretary was trying to be wise with hindsight - and failing.

He said: "It is easy to be critical. But it is hard to say which bits of our foreign policy from the Imperial days should have been different.

"It's like looking back at a game of chess; it's much easier to work out afterwards what the moves should have been."

He added: "Conspiracy theorists think Britain and the French wanted to stop the creation of an Arab superstate after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in the First World War. But it is doubtful a superstate like that could have held together.

"In one sense, we have a hangover from the days of Empire. But really we are involved now in some former colonies because we are Bush's poodle."

J B Kelly, the veteran historian who has written several books on the Gulf, was aghast at Mr Straw's remarks. He said Mr Straw had no appreciation of Iraqi history.

"Iraq would not have come into being as a state after the First World War if it had not been for Britain.

"It is an area where the sea had been made safe - largely for our benefit but also for that of locals. We brought the rule of law to the Gulf.

"Not long after Britain left, the Arabs began the oil offensive and Iraq made claims on Kuwait. But he should remember that we could not have stayed and staying would not have prevented most of the trouble with countries which had more money and allies nearby.

He believed Iraq's borders had been "very well drawn", adding: "This demonising of Britain has long been dismissed by good scholars."

In the interview, Mr Straw said: "India-Pakistan - we made some quite serious mistakes. We were complacent with what happened in Kashmir, the boundaries weren't published until two days after independence. The consequences are still there."

Of Afghanistan he said: "We played less than a glorious role over a century and a half." In the Middle East, he said: "The odd lines for Iraq's borders were drawn by Brits." The British involvement in the birth of the Arab-Israeli dispute was "not entirely an honourable one".

On the issues of Africa, Mr Straw said his "huge arguments" with Robert Mugabe were over democracy and good governance. "However, when any Zimbabwean says to me land is a key issue . . . the early colonisers were all about taking land."

15 November 2002: Straw blames crises [in Africa, Middle East] on Britain's colonial past
13 September 2002: Mugabe attacks British 'colonial oppressors' in UN speech

One of the things J. B. Kelly told the interviewer, and that did not appear in the final article, was that the most important "boundary line" of modern Iraq, that supposedly separating "Arab" (Sunni) Iraq from Shi'a Persian Iran, was drawn not by the "coloniialist" British, but by the Ottoman Empire and the Persian Empire, in an agreement brokered by the Russian government, calle the Treaty of Erzrum (1847).

Note Straw's remark that "The British involvement in the birth of the Arab-Israeli dispute was 'not entirely an honourable one.'" Jack Straw is not here referring to the British administration of Mandatory Palestine, that was entirely intent on betraying the solemn commitments that Great Britain had, in order to become the Mandatory power, made to the League of Nations, and was in fact bent on not fulfilling the League of Nations' promise to create the Jewish National Home. The only exceptions in Mandatory Palestine itself (there was Wyndham Deedes in London) were Orde Wingate (expelled from Palestine because he actualy believed in helping the Jews learn how to defend thsemelves from Arab attack), and earlier, Col. Richard Meinertzhagen (see the "Diary" of Meinertzhagen).

No, what the ill-informed jack Straw is referring to is the nonsensical and baseless Arab insistence that certain promises were made to them that the British betrayed. This is completely false. The Hussein-Macmahon correspondence, which was thoroughly studied by Elie Kedourie, shows exactly what "promise" was made by the British -- none. The "promise" made by MacMahon 1) could not bind the British government and the Arabs understood this perfectly and what is more important 2) explicitly excluded the territory of what became Mandatory Palestine from its purview -- as MacMahon kept insisting and finally, fed up with Arab misstatements, set out clearly in a letter to the London Times in late July, 1937. This can all be found in Elie Kedourie's article on the MacMahon-Hussein correspondence (see the collection of articles "Islam in the Modern World").

Straw is a former National Union of Students leader. He does not know the history of Great Britain. He only knows the standard caricature history of the Empire, and of figures such as Palmerston. Somehow the Foreign Office has kept him from reading Kedourie and Kelly both -- if he did, he would save himself from a great deal of error.

And if he studied Islam, what is actually in the texts, and what every great Western historian of Islam has written about it -- and he can find a sample of it in the forthcoming "The Legacy of Jihad" -- he might change his tune about Turkey. But he won't because he will not study, will not learn. Don't confuse the Jack Straws of this world with history.

They are Jaywalking (in the Jay Leno sense) through the Foreign Office, and in various other European and North American chanceries. It is not only the high school students, and the college students, who cannot place the American Civil War within 50 years, think Christopher Columbus discovered America round about 1750, and believe that Africa is in Asia, and China touches Peru. No, it is also people at the level of Jack Straw.

Keep that in mind, as you try to make sense of all the nonsense. Idiots rule.

Posted by: Hugh at September 9, 2005 12:22 AM

"The Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, warned in a hard-hitting speech that snubbing Ankara's hopes would give ammunition to Islamic extremists, while welcoming it into the EU would help avert a "clash of civilisations" between the Muslim world and the West."
-- from the article above

The "clash of civilizations" is not between "the Muslim world and the West" but between "the Muslim world and all the rest" and it always has been. It does not depend on what the West does in the Middle East, or in Europe. It depends on ly on the nature of Islam, on what is inculcated into Believers, including the division of the world between Believer and Infidel, dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb, and the duty of Jihad to spread Islam (through various instruments, not only warfare)until it covers the globe, and until all non-Muslims are killed, converted, or reduced, as they were until recent times when Western power was so great that it could, in some places (as in the Ottoman Empire), by repeated pressure, manage to lessen some of the persecution, but the murders of Jews, Armenians, Greeks, Maronites, Chaldeans, and the persecution of Copts, all over the MIddle East and North Africa, and the persecution and murder of Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Confucians all over Asia wherever Islam dominated and Muslims ruled, show what the problem is.

The problem is not what the E.U. does with Turkey. It is a far greater problem. It is what is contained in Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira. Admitting Turkey, where Kemalism has proven less sturdy than any of its admirers and beneficiaries thought, and where Islam is resurgent (because Islam is forever; Islam does not go away; Kemalism is for the intellectually enlightened; Islam for the less enlightened; there are always, in any society, far more of the latter than of the former. That is why the choice of prevailing belief-system is so important.

Straw is a fool. Historians know it. Visitors to this site know it. When will enough people in England know it?

Posted by: Hugh at September 9, 2005 12:30 AM

"Britain and the United States have begun diplomatic moves to salvage Turkey's plans..."
-- from the article above

"And the United States." Still thinking of Turkey as the stout ally against the Russians? Surely the behavior of the Turkish government in the last few years, and the incredible media campaign, in the major Turkish as well as minor outlets, against the United States and the West deserve to be kept in mind. Erdogan is clever, but he is not that clever. Even if Richard Perle (a former agent of Turkey) introduces Erdogan to the American Enterprise Institute on Erdogan's last trip to Washington, this should not be enough to make Turkey into something it no longer is, or perhaps never was -- a steadfast ally of the United States.

The refusal of the Turksih government to allow that fourth American division invade Iraq from Turkish soil, and almost everything else that has come out of Turkey, including the "moderate" misstatements of Mustafa Akyol (would-be Muslim "reformer" who was won a few supposedly skeptical hearts and minds -- but not at Jihadwatch), should give pause.

Richard Perle was taken in by the likes of Conrad Black (or so he says). He can certainly be taken in by the masters of taqiyya and tu-quoque, who if admitted into the E.U., will islamize that entity -- or cause its breakup.

How stupid can the American government be? Those who keep making excuses for the Administration, claiming that they "know what they are doing in Iraq," and we should not complain about their failure to exploit the natural fissues within Islam by leaving soon, have some explaining to do.

Why has there been no Manhattan-Project urgency to an energy plan designed exclusively to diminish OPEC revenues? Why does the American government continue to prate about a "two-state solution" which would only whet, not sate, unappeasable Muslim appetites? Why does Karen Hughes show up at a meeting of the louche Islamic Society of North America, to call for Muslim participation in this presumably "joint" war against terrorism, and thereby further confuse the American population, and further convince the Muslims that they need not fear, they have nothing to re-examine or apologize for or change, and the Administration is truly going to act as if Islam is a religion of "peace" and "tolerance" as Bush once said. Why is the Administration now backing the islamization of Europe, through supporting the entry of Turkey? Why did Bush call the Prime Minister of Greece, Karamanlis, and urge him with every possible inducement to drop any opposition to Turkey's admission to the E.U. (a phone conversation reported widely in Greece, and not at all here in the United States -- why not?).

Why do so many knee-jerk "conservatives" think that they must defend this Administration's crazy inattention to the menace, not of "terrorism," but of the Jihad to spread Islam, through the money-weapon, through Da'wa, through demographic conquest? Why does no on ein the Administration come close, asymptoticaly and synecdochically, to discussing the real problem, if only through that useful term "Jihad"?

How much more of this wilful blindness and timidity by Bush, and by those who hate Bush, can we stand?

Posted by: Hugh at September 9, 2005 12:42 AM

How much more of this wilful blindness and timidity by Bush, and by those who hate Bush, can we stand?

That's a damn good question Hugh. Can they all be idiots? I saw Norquist on TV today (CNBC). Everytime I see him, I think "Muslim agent" at the highest level of America. I bet he is pushing Turkey hard in the Administration. For Bush to call Greece and pressure them. Idiot. Turkey has already proven what a belligerent member they will be by this Cyprus hissy fit they are on and they aren't even a member. Imagine, they will be like CAIR with 65 million Muslims always seeking that 'Muslim justice' that Muslims have been seeking for 1400 years. That's all they want, just justice. Of course, their 'justice' doesn't include any infidels on the Earth, Allah's Earth. Don't our leaders see this? Turkey thinks they should have Cyprus and their little Muslim enclave that they established after they invaded, all under their control. I don't think Greece and the Greek Orthodox Church has forgotten so quickly their suffering under Muslim control.

As I have said before, Bush is not intelligient. He is just fed a position and goes with it. There is no serious thinking done there, no independent thinking. I have read where Karl Rove is best friends with Grover Norquist. Can it get any worse, Condi is complete dhimmi and clueless, Norquist is a Muslim agent and has influence with Karl Rove, who is supposedly the puppetmaster behind the Puppet Bush.

You could not write a better opening act, or cast more perfect actors for the debacle and decline of Western Civilization in the age of political correctness, multiculturalism, and muddling leadership muddling through as though mistakes made today will not have enormous consequences tomorrow.

Oh yes, historians will not be kind to Bush, Blair, Straw, Rice and so many others. Or maybe we will have historians like Esposito who will glorify the follies of the West as stokes of genius in the new expanded world of Islam.

Pedestrian Infidel
The Pedestrian Infidel Blog

Posted by: pedestrian infidel at September 9, 2005 1:26 AM

Jack Straw lives up to his name doesn`t he:

A straw man or man of straw is a dummy in the shape of a human created by stuffing straw into clothes. Straw men are used as scarecrows, combat-training targets or swordsmiths test-targets, effigies to be burned, and as rodeo dummies to distract bulls.

As a rhetorical term, "straw man" describes a point of view that was created in order to be easily defeated in argument; the creator of a "straw man" argument does not accurately reflect the best arguments of his or her opponents, but instead sidesteps or mischaracterizes them so as to make the opposing view appear weak or ridiculous.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at September 9, 2005 2:28 AM

Why or why do the Western European Nations want to commit 'HARA KIRI'? Its beyond reason.

The Dhimmi's & the left in the West cannot see that the Muslim lobby gains preferential treatment through constantly selling themselves as the eternal suffering victims, over & above everyone else. They cannot see that they are reinforcing Muslims mental state of superiority over non-believers.

Appeasement, special favours, a nod here, a wink there...all leading to one law for them (Sharia) & one law for us - right at the heart of our so called democracies.

They know what they are doing, & how to use our system to get what they want over & above the rest of us.

Even down to using their children to force the issue.

Well, they use their own kids as suicide bombers .........................................so using them as the forward column to exact special treatment over & above other religious types & non believers (the clear, massive majority on the planet)should not come as a surprise.

What do they want in the West? Is it to better their economic life or is it more sinister?

With each passing day I am convinced that every action they take all over the globe is orchestrated, targeted & measured.

These are the days of no leaders in the West.

Admitting Turkey to the EU , is opening the flood gates to improvised Muslims to come onto the welfare band wagon, like the rest that is alredy in Europe, re-enforce there numbers and then will will cry out. "Islam is the fastest growing religion". Bloody well it would be; as they pro-create like sewer rats and their numbers will increase.
All the European Knights of the past who journeyed to Jerusalem to fight the menance of Islam must be turning in their graves,to what the present day decendents are doing to themselves and to the future of Europe.
It took Christian Spain nearly 700 years to get rid of this sinister sect.

Posted by: faqi at September 9, 2005 2:29 AM

faqi,

"With each passing day I am convinced that every action they take all over the globe is orchestrated, targeted & measured."

I am with you there.

Posted by: Daffersd at September 9, 2005 2:41 AM

"With each passing day I am convinced that every action they take all over the globe is orchestrated, targeted & measured."

Yes, just because we cannot see the caliph, just because these days it may be an oligarchy of caliphites, does not mean there it not some plan behind it. I have thought that ever since I heard of the systematic immigration to Scandinavia countries. I can understand why Britain gets Moslems from Pakistan and Bangladesh. I can understand why France has Moslems from north and west Africa, and Algeria was a province of France itself. US, Canada, Australia are young countries with a history of immigration. Denmark has, as you would expect, a minority population of Innuit Greenlanders but otherwise what was the impetus for Islam to colonise Malmo? That Fijordman blog is a revelation.
There are hints on the Barnabas Fund site, I await my copy of Islam in Britain with trepidation.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at September 9, 2005 3:19 AM

Full speach is here:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029391647&a=KArticle&aid=1125560457817

Posted by: Daffersd at September 9, 2005 3:19 AM

This minister is very silly, how they think like that, Only for economical reasons Turkey is a nightmare, and I don´t want to say cultural and religious. Please, common sense, already.

Posted by: Franze at September 9, 2005 3:57 AM

I would draw your attention to this paragraph, which I think lays bare the UK strategy for Islam, such as it is. Our leaders do not understand the intolerance fundemental to Islam.

"There is more at stake here than Turkey's future. This is about Europe's future too. And it is a question of paramount importance for the whole international community. Turkey is a secular nation with a majority Muslim population. By welcoming Turkey we will demonstrate that Western and Islamic cultures can thrive together as partners in the modern world. The alternative is too terrible to contemplate. This is the strategic importance of the step Europe will take next month. The European Union has already demonstrated its power to heal division in the most practical way by welcoming countries who were long divided from us by the iron curtain. We now have the opportunity to achieve something as profoundly important by starting Turkey on the road to full EU membership."

The words "too terrible too contemplate" makes you understand it is a desperate hope rather than a solid strategy.

We know that the EU is pushing Turkey towards accepting the same EU basic laws, but as we see in Europe with polygamy, honor killings etc. happening in spite of our laws, such laws will have little effect and will be ignored by the Islamofacists.

The failure of Jack Straw to realise that Turkey is in fact a fundementalist Islamic country with a secular crust is also incredible, we are sheep led by incompetent sheep.

The opposition to Turkey joining the EU is a fact, if there was a refuredum on this issue I am totally convinced that the answer would be no.

Our politicians are also wantonly ignoring one of the messages from the EU referendums, they do so at the risk of the total collapse of the EU.

Arrogance and stupidity are combined in this policy that ignores the wishes and concerns of the people of Europe.

Posted by: Daffersd at September 9, 2005 3:57 AM

This minister is very silly, how they think like that, Only for economical reasons Turkey is a nightmare, and I don´t want to say cultural and religious. Please, common sense, already.

Posted by: Franze at September 9, 2005 3:57 AM

This minister is very silly, how they think like that, Only for economical reasons Turkey is a nightmare, and I don´t want to say cultural and religious. Please, common sense, already.

Posted by: Franze at September 9, 2005 3:57 AM

This minister is very silly, how they think like that, Only for economical reasons Turkey is a nightmare, and I don´t want to say cultural and religious. Please, common sense, already.

Posted by: Franze at September 9, 2005 3:57 AM

And if alcohol isn't banned, there will an Islamic backlash.

And if every woman doesn't wear a hijab, then there will be an Islamic backlash.

And if every muslim isn't allowed to pray 5 times a day, there will be an Islamic backlash.

When will it end?

IF Turkey is allowed into the EU then there WILL be an clash of civilisations.

Posted by: Voltaire at September 9, 2005 4:26 AM

And if alcohol isn't banned, there will an Islamic backlash.

And if every woman doesn't wear a hijab, then there will be an Islamic backlash.

And if every muslim isn't allowed to pray 5 times a day, there will be an Islamic backlash.

When will it end?

IF Turkey is allowed into the EU then there WILL be an clash of civilisations.

Posted by: Voltaire at September 9, 2005 4:26 AM

He should start thinking about the backlash from his own citizens who don't want Turkey if EUarabia pushes this through without the consent of its citizens. The whole EU machine is a debacle and in disrepute since the French and the Dutch tossed out the so-called constitution which, in effect, was smoothing the way for Turkey's entry. Our political masters and employers only want Turks for the cheap labour they think they might provide and for purposes of appeasement. In reality, they will be another welfare burden and adding another layer of jihadists legally residing in our countries and free to plot mischief. I just hope some other political party will have the guts to withdraw from Europe and shut the gates to the flood of welfare claimants and yet more Muslims with a big chip on their shoulders who have nothing to contribute to our economy or society. Bradford and Leicester in the North of England are set to become Muslim cities in the near future. With an influx of 80 million Muslims, there'll be a lot more British cities to add to the Caliphate. Remember the Ottomans at the gates of Vienna? With a single stroke of his pen, the man of straw - the scarecrow - will effect what armies tried unsuccessfully to do centuries ago.

Posted by: londongirl at September 9, 2005 4:26 AM

There was a time when Great Britain had leadership - real leadership.

Jack Straw has an M15 file. He was considered a "subversive" by previous British Governments. He was considered "dangerous".

Now we see why.

When the Foreign Secretary actually says "We must surrender or die" - what, exactly, does he think that militant, fascist Islam takes from those words?

Do they think: "Oh, shit, we had better leave them alone or we may get trounced"

Or do they think: "These tossers are soooo weak & feeble, so bereft of belief in themselves that we have a duty to put them out of their misery"?

Turkey will not get into the EU if the citizens of Great Britain (sorry jack, I know you find the "Great" very embarrassing, being an Empire apologist extraordinaire) & I am sure, if the French & the Dutch have anything to say on the matter.

No Jack, this appeasement will not do - & you have no mandate from the British people to surrender to Turkey on our forefathers & our childrens behalf.

We will fight you all the way.

Posted by: albion at September 9, 2005 5:06 AM

Thursday, Sept 8, Israel’s military prosecution indicted Mahmoud Rahman Mutlaq Varidath, 26, from Dahariya southwest of Hebron on charges of actively participating in training and operations on behalf of the al Qaeda terrorist organization. This was the first such indictment ever filed in Israel.

Whatever the StrawMan spouts will not negate the fact that this is a crucial stage in history. And in history will be found the answer to halt this evil. The answer is: NO APPEASEMENT

If the mossies cannot accept it, then the `Others` have the right, the justification to merrily speed them on.

Very frankly these days I have no compunctions for these people.

Posted by: hutchrun at September 9, 2005 5:45 AM

Dear Mr. Straw,

You claim that "... snubbing Ankara's hopes would give ammunition to Islamic extremists, ..."

For your information, Islamic extremists exist as defined by Islamic theology. When you import Islam by accepting Turkey, you will automatically import extremism. It is a buy-one-get-one-free problem.

Cheers,
Jan

Posted by: Jan Vink at September 9, 2005 6:09 AM

faqi:

Only too happy to provide you with the words.

There is no copyright on the truth - but a little nod in my direction would have been nice......

Surrender or die. Not really a dignified stance for the Foreign Secretary of Great Britain.

Posted by: albion at September 9, 2005 6:41 AM

Interesting editorial from the right wing journal "The Spectator" which has long supported Turkey's entry into Europe - no surprise there, Boris Johnson its editor is of Turkish extraction. But even The Spectator has now done a ninety degree turn. Read on:

"It would a tragedy if Turkish membership of the EU were to be jeapardised by Turkey's treatment of prominent novelist Orham Pamuk. Last week, Mr Pamuk was charged under Article 301/1 of the Turkish penal code which makes it an offence to insult the Republic of Turkey, punishable with between six months and three years imprisonment - increased by a third if the offence was committed abroad. Mr Pamuk's crime was to make reference in an interview with Swiss newspaper "Taganzeiger" in February to Turkey's ethnic cleansing of Armenians between 1915 and 1917 and its ill-treatment of Kurds since 1984. "Thirty thousand Kurds and a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it," he said." It goes without saying that jailing people for raising such issues is unacceptable in a modern democracy..... But even if Parmuk's charges were nonsense, it would be no excuse for jailing him."

Of course, we all know that genocide and ill treatment of any other race or religion is the hallmark of Islam which is also the enemy of democracy and free speech. Why does "The Spectator" which usually upholds those values, sound so surprised what our "new partner" Turkey is up to now? And if and when Turkey is admitted (God forbid) will the PC brigade forbid everyone to discuss Turkey's genocidal crimes in case they "offend" someone?

I hope Robert will give this story some prominence.

Posted by: londongirl at September 9, 2005 6:57 AM

A nation that stood alone against the Nazis, is now ruled by a bunch of cowards.

Letting Turkey into the EU, will not only bring in 80 million more muslims into the EU. Turkey's laws allow all those who claim Turkish ethinicity, to also claim Turkish citizenship. This means that Turks living in Turkmenistan and beyond into China itself, will have the right to be in the EU.

Then ofcourse, as Turkey shares borders with Iran, Iraq and others in that region, it will be a conduit to flood the EU with muslims from all over.

I thought we had time to stall the the demographic conquest that is underway, but this bit of idiocy and cowardice from the New Labour is beyond understanding.

The end of Western civilisation is that much closer.

Posted by: DP111 at September 9, 2005 7:10 AM

Thank heavens that the leaders of Germany and France are opposed to the idea.

Bush and Blair seem to have completely lost the plot. All they can think of is how to give more of our hard earned money to islamic nations.

Posted by: DP111 at September 9, 2005 7:21 AM

And we must not forget 7/7.

Two months and two days, and counting, and NOT ONE islamic fanatic has been deported. Far from that, New Labour wants another hundred million more muslims into the EU.

Posted by: DP111 at September 9, 2005 8:25 AM

Man of Straw afraid Islamasists will huff and puff and blow our democracy down

The Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, warned in a hard-hitting speech that snubbing Ankara's hopes would give ammunition to Islamic extremists, while welcoming it into the EU would help avert a "clash of civilisations" between the Muslim world and the West. Failure to start EU membership negotiations on 3 October as scheduled could lead Europe into a "crisis on our own doorstep," Mr Straw said.

Excerpt taken from http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article311297.ece
Copyright acknowledged

What we don’t already have a crisis ??

Bombs in London
Radicals interred awaiting deportation
Mosques being utilised as radical pulpits
Extremists allowed to promote division and hatred
Security services scrabbling to identify groups to be banned
New laws being created
Daily abuses of our democracy published in all national newspapers
Big Brother surveillance of all communications networks being sought
Bombs in Spain
Riots in Sweden
Death threats to those brave enough to speak out ?
Legal challenges to our right to deport radicals and those that support them.
Our social benefits system giving succour to radicals families and other miscreants who abuse our system
Threats against fellow Muslims who take part in legal competitions

And he is worried about a crisis ….oh boy where did we get him ??
Intellectual giant that he is.

Home Secretary Charles Clarke quote
'Our human rights regime is out of balance'
Excerpt from
http://comment.independent.co.uk/podium/article311023.ece
Our strengthening of human rights needs to acknowledge that the right to be protected from torture and ill-treatment must be considered side by side with the right to be protected from the death and destruction caused by indiscriminate terrorism, sometimes caused, instigated or fomented by nationals from countries outside the EU. This is a difficult balance to get right, and it requires us all as politicians to ask where our citizens - who elected all of us here - would expect us to draw the line.

Yes I agree Ask us where we want the Line drawn instead of playing Dhimmi to minority pressure groups

They wont of course

Because they bloody well know what the answer will be !!

KT
http://jihadwatcher.blogspot.com/

Posted by: KnightTemplar at September 9, 2005 8:41 AM

let the Turks into the EU, or someone may get hurt

Hmm! Someone will get hurt, huh? All work and no play really has made this Jack a dull boy!

How foolish can Jack be? If you ask me, he's already achieved dunce status! Go to the cormer of the class! Collect your cap, Jack, on the way there! It's over there on my table!

So this is the level of analysis and thinking that is stearing Britian's foreign policies these days! What a sad state to get to! But more than that, we have a catastrophe on our hands - a catastrophe in the making.

This is a government made up of ill-informed idiots. And these idiots are about to give away our wonderful Western civilisation, without as much as asking the people whether they wish to do this. Such a display of arrogance! The hubris of it all!

Nobody I know, or have met, except a few uninformed dullards - and thankfully I don't meet too many of those on a day-to-day basis - think that it is a good idea to let Turkey into the EU. Indeed, it fills everybody I know and meet with dread and a sense of forboding!

I was recently in central Europe and spoke to many Germans and Austrians about the prospect. To a man (and woman), they were TOTALLY AGAINST the very idea.

Blair prides himself on trying to bring democracy to the Middle East (as per Bush's dream). Mr. Prime Minister, what about our democracy at home?

If Blair believes so much in the principles of democracy, then he should arrange for a referendu on this issue. Then he will learn what the people think of this hare-brained idea! But no. He's too much of a coward to risk such a move.

Bush and Blair, and their mindless followers, have shown repeatedly that they do not understand even the basics of Islam. They continue to talk about terrorism, when, in actual fact, they should be talking about jihad.

They refuse to call the proverbial spade a spade; and doggedly refuse to identify the real enemy. Alas, that enemy is not only without, but it is within, too, and in huge numbers.

there are said to be 20 million Muslims in Europe already. If only a small percentage of those people are potential trouble, then we have a colossal problem on our hands already. And these fools want to allow about 80 million more in to swell their numbers to great proportions! How foolish can politicians be?

Bush has made a mess of Iraq already, trying to bring democracy to a part of the world that is not compatible with the concept. Now he wishes to screw up Europe as well! And Blair, like a dog on a leash, follows his every mistaken word and idea on the subject.

If Turkey is allowed into Europe, Europe as we know and love it will be no more. Europe will have committed suicide. The death will be a slow one; but it will be a death nevertheless.

It beggars belief that a people as proud as the Europeans could jettison 2000 years of development in order to allow a totally alien culture in to take them over. But, of course, we know that this is not the wish of the people, but the wish of many of Europe's leaders.

There is but one hope, it seems to me: that Angela Merkel takes over the reins of power in Germany. She is four-square against allowing Turkey into the EU as a full member. For her it can only be a privileged partnership, and nothing more. We can only hope that she wins the upcoming election in Germany. That will put the proverbial spanner in the works!

Won't it be an ironic twist of fate if Europe will be saved by a German?

Continental Europeans, such as the Austrians and Germans, have much to lose if Turkey is allowed in. They are joined to Turkey by land. No English Channel to separate them (though that isn't much of a buffer these days, either).

The Austrians still remember Islam knocking on Vienna's gates. The Spaniards should remember the occupation of their country by the Moors. The British have yet to have such an event to remember. But if they wait long enough, they will get their own débâcle, too.

If Turkey is allowed to join Europe, it will be the beginning of the end for Europe: Europe will either collapse from within, and then break up, or it will become what we all fear: Eurabia!

The idea that if Turkey is not admitted there will be a clash of civilisations, this is an erroneous idea. Letting Turkey into Europe is likely to precipitate a clash of civilisations. The clash will be within Europe itself!

Posted by: Mark at September 9, 2005 9:46 AM

let the Turks into the EU, or someone may get hurt

Hmm! Someone will get hurt, huh? All work and no play really has made this Jack a dull boy! How foolish can Jack be? If you ask me, he's already achieved dunce status! He should go to the corner of the class and put on his dunce's cap!

So this is the level of analysis and thinking that is steering Britain's foreign policies these days! What a sad state to get to! But more than that, we have a catastrophe on our hands - a catastrophe in the making.

This is a government made up of ill-informed idiots. And these idiots are about to give away our wonderful Western civilisation, without as much as asking the people whether they wish to do this. Such a display of arrogance! The hubris of it all!

Nobody I know, or have met, except a few uninformed dullards - and thankfully I don't meet too many of those on a day-to-day basis - think that it is a good idea to let Turkey into the EU. Indeed, it fills everybody I know and meet with dread and a sense of forboding!

I was recently in central Europe and spoke to many Germans and Austrians about the prospect. To a man (and woman), they were TOTALLY AGAINST the very idea.

Blair prides himself on trying to bring democracy to the Middle East (as per Bush's dream). Tone, what about our democracy at home?

If Blair believes so much in the principles of democracy, then he should arrange for a referendum on this issue. Then he will learn what the people think of this hare-brained idea! But no, he's too much of a coward to risk such a move.

Bush and Blair, and their mindless followers, have shown repeatedly that they do not understand even the basics of Islam. They continue to talk about terrorism, when, in actual fact, they should be talking about jihad.

They refuse to call the proverbial spade a spade; and doggedly refuse to identify the real enemy. Alas, that enemy is not only without, but it is within, too, and in huge numbers.

There are said to be about 20 million Muslims in Europe already. If only a small percentage of those people are potential trouble, then we have a colossal problem on our hands already. And these fools want to allow about 80 million more in to swell their numbers to even more! How foolish can politicians be?

Bush has made a mess of Iraq already, trying to bring democracy to a part of the world that is not compatible with the concept. Now he wishes to screw up Europe as well! And Blair, like a dog on a leash, follows his every mistaken word and idea on the subject.

If Turkey is allowed into Europe, Europe as we know and love it will be no more. Europe will have committed cultural suicide. The death will be a slow one (and perhaps not so slow!); but it will be a death nevertheless.

It beggars belief that a people as proud as the Europeans could jettison 2000 years of development in order to allow a totally alien culture in to take them over. Of course, we know that this is not the wish of the people, but the wish of many of Europe's leaders.

There is but one hope, it seems to me: that Angela Merkel takes over the reins of power in Germany. She is four-square against allowing Turkey into the EU as a full member. For her it can only be a privileged partnership, and nothing more. We can only hope that she wins the upcoming election in Germany. That will put the proverbial spanner in the works! It will change the political landscape of Europe. And
won't it be an ironic twist of fate if Europe will be saved by a German?

Continental Europeans, such as the Austrians and Germans, have much to lose if Turkey is allowed in. They are joined to Turkey by land. No English Channel to separate them (though that isn't much of a buffer these days, either).

The Austrians still remember Islam knocking on Vienna's gates. The Spaniards should remember the occupation of their country by the Moors. The British have yet to have such an event to remember; but if they wait long enough, they will get their own débâcle, too.

If Turkey is allowed to join Europe, it will be the beginning of the end for Europe: Europe will either collapse from within, and then break up, or it will become what we all fear: Eurabia!

The idea that if Turkey is not admitted there will be a clash of civilisations is an erroneous idea indeed. Letting Turkey into Europe is likely to precipitate a clash of civilisations, not the other way around, and the clash will be within Europe itself!

Posted by: Mark at September 9, 2005 9:56 AM

Yes, let them into the EU!

If you don't, they might commit geocide against the Armenian Christians.

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at September 9, 2005 10:43 AM

Hugh posted: How much more of this wilful blindness and timidity by Bush, and by those who hate Bush, can we stand?

Well, Schroeder and Chirac dislike Bush, and they atleast have given indication that they will put a stop to Turkey's entry. It will be fitting.

This is really Bush's agenda. Even after being kicked in the teeth by Turkey, he still manages to play the dhimmi with exquisite perfection. Blair is just tagging along.

Turkey is not part of Europe, either geographically or culturally. Australia, NZ, USA, Canada, Latin America, India , Russia, are more suitable then Turkey for EU membership.

We are blaming Straw, but such a major speech must have been been cleared by Bush and Blair. There is no point in castigating the messenger.

Posted by: DP111 at September 9, 2005 10:58 AM

People power should put a stop to this lunacy! Or are we to be led to the slaughter as docile and sacrificial lambs?

Posted by: Mark at September 9, 2005 11:09 AM

Sorry for the double posting above. Had one hell of a job posting that. Couldn't proof-read it, either. Then, two different versions show up! It must be the gremlins.

Posted by: Mark at September 9, 2005 11:11 AM

Mark
You mentioned lambs.

I recommended this essay

TRIBES

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html

--------------------------------
We in the West have become so comfortable in our way of life, that we have lost all sense of who we are, i.e., a community of like minded people. I mean hear, not as a racial group, or even a religious group, but as like minded people who have a common set of principles. In other words, though we share such principles, we have become atomised as a society. This makes us vulnerable to intimidation and attack by wolves. The sheep dogs who should protect us, follow orders from people who have no real liking for us, except as tax payers, ie treat us as sheep. I'm not surprised.

So no matter how many there are of us - as sheep, we are fearful of the wolves, and timid and paralysed in front of them.

Now look at the bloggers themselves - there is no unity of purpose or action here. They operate individually, with no power to raise a storm except in the blogosphere. OTH, look at islamic web sites. They can raise a storm of emails to politicians, letters to the media, and muslim spokesmen appearing on TV, presenting their Taqqiya. This, from recent immigrants to the West.

Anything like that from our side, even though we are 95% or more of the population, and pay for it all as well?

Is it then a surprise that our politicians, national and in the EU, are terrified of muslims? Of course they are terrified. They are terrfied of a few wolves, as naturally they should, but are not worried in the least of millions of sheep.

But we are not sheep! What if we became more vociferous?

As a first step, we in the blogosphere, need to organise our actions, so that we coordinate a campaign of emails and letters to politicians, indicating our absolute outrage at the concessions being granted to a killing cult, which islam is.

So as a first step, we need to form a pan-European alliance of like minded bloggers, from East to West Europe.

If this is moderately successful, then politicians will themselves be more hestitant to acquisce to muslim demands. The second stage can then be considered.

Gates of Vienna has proposed a "swarming" idea, but we need one in Europe for specifically European concerns, to which European politicians are susceptible.

Something has to be done.

Posted by: DP111 at September 9, 2005 11:30 AM

Thanks DP111, I'll take a look.

Posted by: Mark at September 9, 2005 11:42 AM

To Albion,

Sorry mate, English is not my mother tongue, I am not well versed in the langauge; so I may have borrowed from here and there to put my paragraph
together to make sense. Are we not on the same side, fighting the same enemy? Does it matter if we can get the meaning across - as you said "there is no copyright to truth". In any case I never kept details of any articles of inerest as to who said it.
Thank you for your help.

Posted by: faqi at September 9, 2005 12:54 PM

I agree Mark ....we need to organise , focus and direct the incredible energy and expertise within this and other groups.

Any ideas ??

Posted by: KnightTemplar at September 9, 2005 2:07 PM

faqi

Chill mate! Sorry, I did not mean any offence & in no way feel negative at all.

Its me thats sorry!

Best regards
Albion..

Posted by: albion at September 9, 2005 2:57 PM

KnightTemplar:

You might like to email Jack Straw himself. I shall be in the morning. His email address is jack.straw@fco.gov.uk

I'm in despair at the way things are going here in the UK. The BBC won't give Turkey's detrators a voice at all. And all this in the name of freedom of expression and democracy!

Posted by: Mark at September 9, 2005 2:57 PM

Sorry: That should have read "detractors".

Posted by: Mark at September 9, 2005 2:58 PM

Mark

Thanks for your post. I have been writing gibberish about Turkey & the EUrabian experience for about a week, & never quite hitting the nail on the head.

Your post has focussed me somewhat. Cheers

Albion

Posted by: albion at September 9, 2005 3:06 PM

I smell the Saudi's thumb in this pie..

Posted by: otterfisher at September 9, 2005 5:00 PM

After the referendums in France and Holland, Bliar is running scared. He knows the British electorate and most other countries would boot out with a resounding NO the constitution, Turkey's entry and any change to the sterling currency so he won't even try to hold a referendum. However, Turkey will be let in through the back door, never fear. Our political masters are plotting and scheming in Brussels how to push it through. As usual Islamists are making all kinds of demands - they know how to litigate so well. How can Turkey possibly meet the "conditions" if they won't recognise one of the member states, Cyprus?

Posted by: londongirl at September 10, 2005 7:56 AM

I have been following Mr Straw's views on Turkey's proposed membership in the EU for some time. He is an appeaser who makes Neville Chamberlain look like Winston Churchill. The worst of it is, his idiotic opinions are shared by the leadership of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. The last time I checked, it was the "European" Union and Turkey was an Asian country.

Posted by: jovan66102 at September 12, 2005 3:05 AM