Another useful idiot speaking. Like rabbits they are. Frightened and scurrying around, while the others are just plain dumb living their hedonistic lives with total disregard of what comes.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 1, 2005 7:53 AM

I don´t want Turkey in Europe. Only Austria is fighting in this chapter.

Posted by: Franze at October 1, 2005 8:08 AM

The EU elites know not. The majority of the EU public is AGAINST Turkey membership in the EU. But this doesn't matter! The EU elites know what is best for you! We must let Turkey in or they will kill us!

EU insanity.

Allah once knew, but he forgot, now he know not.

John Sobieski, PI
The Pedestrian Infidel Blog

Posted by: John Sobieski at October 1, 2005 8:22 AM

Even The Telegraph, normally a sensible newspaper, has this to say about Turkey's membership:

The EU has a strategic choice. Either it patiently works at absorbing a large, Muslim country over the next 10 to 20 years, or it turns it away. The first promises a unique bridge between the West and the Islamic world. The second risks converting a well-intentioned but proud applicant into a radical foe.

This comment misses the obvious point, demonstrated throught history, particularly recent history, that giving Muslims what they want does not placate them, it emboldens them. And how does the writer know that the applicant is 'well-intentioned'? This is a meaningless phrase, even in the context of Western countries. All countries act in their own interests, not out of good intentions towards others. We only need to ask if their interests coincide with ours. Turkey's interests do not coincide with those of Europe, so it should stay out.

Posted by: Interested at October 1, 2005 8:54 AM

If Turkey joins the EU, then Austria should pull out of the EU, get rid of it's muslims and give the rest of us a safe haven from the muslim invasion.

Posted by: Voltaire at October 1, 2005 9:18 AM

The Islamic world is waiting with barely contained excitement the prospect of 70 million Muslims becoming part of 'Europe'

Show them the door - bring on the fury and resentment - we can take it.

Posted by: Zico at October 1, 2005 10:05 AM

Interested:

I read that article in The Telegraph today, too. It started with "Poor Turkey"! Poor Turkey, my foot! How ridiculous was the rationale behind letting Turkey in!

I don't know whether you have noticed, but the press in the UK have given very, very little coverage of the case against Turkey acceding to the EU. It has also been playing all dissent down. And this is what they call democracy!

It seems to me that these people espouse democracy, but prefer not to practise it! Were they to practise it, then they would heed the calls from the people not to allow Turkey in. The British seem to take the view that 'our betters' know better! Interestingly, feelings on this topic are running high in central Europe.

I don't know whether you are able to read German, but if you are, please take a look at Die Presse

This is a good Austrian newspaper; and they have been offering its readers in depth coverage of this controversial move for weeks and weeks now. By contrast, what do we get from the British newspapers? Sweet Fanny Adams!

As you say, the way that The Telegraph views this is absurd. This is like a man marrying a woman because she's been chasing the pants off him. The fact that he doesn't wish to marry her is neither here nor there. She's chased the pants off him, and if he doesn't marry her, she's going to act the bitch.

This, as we all know, is no good reason for the man marrying the potentially nasty woman; the reason The Telegraph gives for 'marrying' the Turks is not a good one either.

Such marriages end in divorce. This 'marriage' will be no different.

Posted by: Mark at October 1, 2005 10:59 AM

Admitting Turkey into the EU is the precusor to Sharia law in Europe. There is absolutely nothing for Europe to gain by admitting Turkey into the union. Only 80 million muslims !!! Wake up Europe before it is too late..

Posted by: Anti-PC at October 1, 2005 11:16 AM

Mark - thanks for the link. Yes, I read German, and agree that the coverage is much more balanced in that newspaper at any rate. However, I noticed that even there one of the arguments in favour of admitting Turkey is greater 'protection' from Islamic terror. So this is 'an offer we can't refuse'.

This is like a man marrying a woman because she's been chasing the pants off him. The fact that he doesn't wish to marry her is neither here nor there. She's chased the pants off him, and if he doesn't marry her, she's going to act the bitch.

You seem to speak with feeling. I have this idea of rampaging Muslim men chasing and appropriating infidel women, so it is intriguing to imagine Islam as a greedy and rapacious female.

Posted by: Interested at October 1, 2005 11:34 AM

Chris Patten is an awful man, and his prnouncements on the world, and especially on Islam and the Middle East, to be displayed, laid out for all to see, and ridiculed for what they reveal about his understanding of men and events.

Despite his self-evident clownishness, he has been made Chancellor of Oxford. This is intolerable. What's next -- giving Cornel West a professorship at Princeton? giving Jeffery Sachs his own "World Institute"? Letting Clinton parade around with his "Clinton Global Initiative"? Giving the Lannan Prize to a "Palestinian" propagandist in verse named Mahmoud Darwish?

The British Library has been opened to non-readers to lounge, chew gum, play music. Oxford itself permitted a business school, the Said School of Business, to sully the atmosphere. There goes the neighborhood, from the meadows of Magdalen to Holywell Manor.

And now Chris Patten, attempting in his criminally negligent way to force Turkey, and 80 million Muslims, down the throat of Europe.

In Europe, as in America, more and more people believe that their ruling classes do not represent them. The distrust of the E.U. and its bureaucrats, of which Patten was a prime example (and his views were fixed in that role), has become a dislike of the very idea of the European Community, and rightly. In the United States, the cockamamie insistence on "staying the course" in Iraq -- in showing no flexibility, no adaptability to either new conditions, or conditions that were always there but which, initially, the lit-up amygdalas of Official Washington responding in haste and panic to the 9/11 attacks, and not quite knowing, and still not knowing, or refusing to know, what Islam, what Jihad, what Da'wa and demographic conquest from within are all about, persists in wasting men and money, lives and lucre, and so much else, in pursuing the will-o'-the-wisp of a decent, tolerant (i.e., as heedless of Islam as possible), nation-state. 1300 years of Sunni-Shi'a hostility, persecution, and fighting are not to be undone in a few years, a few decades, or possibly ever. Who did not read about this? Who thought that the gratitude to Americans for saving them from Saddam Hussein would overwhelm all other considerations? Who assumed that Chalabi, Ambassador Francke, Kanan Makiya, Allawi, and all the rest of those secular, westernized, entirely charming and entirely unrepresentative exiles, who had lived abroad for 2, 3, sometimes 4 decades, were the guides to what could and would be achieved in Iraq?

The anger at this Administration, for continuing to act as if it has learned nothing over the past years, the leading members of which are too busy-busy-busy to devote their precious time either to learning about Islam themselves, or making sure that their staffs have been leearning about it, and figuring out ways to combat the various instruments of Jihad, and to stop prating about a "war on terror" that misstates the problem, raises false hopes about the length, and limits, of the threat, and leads to wasteful, pointless, and sometimes directly counter-productive policies.

No wonder Americans not of the Cindy-Sheehan variety are confused or disgusted with the policy in Iraq, but do not know how to make sense of what appears to them to be confusion, and not wishing to aid the likes of MoveOn.org, harbor their fury against the Administration but do not know where else to turn, for they suspect (probably rightly) that the Democrats who have been so silent would offer, if they did speak, the kind of unacceptable reasons for leaving Iraq -- when it must be left only for the right reasons, to better and more effectively pursue a policy of dividing, demoralizing, containing, and constraining Islam and the instruments of Jihad.

For different reasons then, the publics in Europe and in the United States are both disturbed with their rulers -- of whom Chris Patten, Chancellor of Oxford, is a representative and telling example.

Posted by: Hugh at October 1, 2005 11:51 AM

"...where the Turkish government warned that it would walk out of the talks if all that was on offer was second class membership."

The Turks should understand second class citizenship better than anyone.

Posted by: spect8or at October 1, 2005 11:59 AM

On an earlier thread, Aegean's comments, along with Willbebetter's (two Muslims) showed precisely why it will be a bad thing for Europe and the Europeans to allow Turkey to accede to the EU, for those comments encapsulated attitudes and a worldview which are diametrically opposed to our own.

Muslims, I firmly believe, will never come to understand what democracy truly means, since they cannot comprehend one simple concept: the separation of religion and politics, the separation of church, or mosque, and state. Of course, the reason why they cannot comprehend this separation is because their religion teaches them that politics and religion may not be, and cannot be, separated. So, all power, to a Muslim, rests with Allah; all power, to a democrat, rests with the people. In Islam, Allah dictates their politics; in a democracy, it's the people who dictate them.

To perceive each other's differences, and to understand them, is not in and of itself to dislike or hate one another. It should just be a question of using one's intelligence and foresight to see the dangers that lie ahead of us in this union of opposites.

Moreover, this union, if it does come about - and God forbid that it should! - is certainly not going to be a marriage made in heaven! It will be nothing other than an 'arranged marriage', a 'marriage of convenience' for the plenipotentiaries.

But these plenipotentiaries will certainly not be speaking for the people of Europe. Public opinion in Europe is firmly against. From my readings, and from my understanding of the situation, there are many in Turkey, too, who do not relish this 'marriage'. I read only yesterday in the German press - the German press are generally more forthright than the British press on matters of dissent - that many academics, economists, and 'men of religion' in Turkey are four-square agin Turkey's accession; and many fear that it will be Turkey's downfall. This is the quote I read in Die Welt by these dissenters in Turkey: Im Westen liegt der Untergang der Türkei!

I would add to this. I would say: Im Westen liegt der Untergang der Türkei; in der Türkei liegt der Untergang Europas!

By the way, marriages that are not based on love and mutual respect usually end up in the divorce courts, for they are like dwellings built on the shifting sands. Expect, too, that this marriage of convenience will eventually follow a well-trodden path - to the divorce courts!

Posted by: Mark at October 1, 2005 12:31 PM

With a population of 70 million I can see hoardes of Turkey's poor migrating to Europe and bringing W. Europe closer to dhimmitude and Islamic rule. It would be a short sighted and foolish move but the elite in both Europe and America only see dollar signs and cheap labor. The big reason why Bush is doing nothing about our leaky borders and illegal immigration. Europe( in the words of Michael Savage) needs to protect its borders,languages and cultures from this potential incursion.
In 1071 AD the Byzantines lost the battle of Manzikert to the Turks and as a result they lost most of Anatolia because of the mass migration of Turks into the area, could this become Europe's fate?

Posted by: eaglecap at October 1, 2005 12:44 PM

Interested:

Die Presse has been giving a lot of coverage of the anti-Turkey-in-Europe sentiments. Maybe a little bit of dhimmitude rears its ugly head here and there; but at least they are not shying away from the opposing arguments as the British press is doing. The British press along with Al-BBCeera!

It is sickening indeed to see how far down the road of dhimmitude the British have gone. Haven't any of our politicians got any spunk at all? Furthermore, haven't they got any foresight?

If our leaders have their way and Turkey is allowed in, which I fear will be the ultimate outcome, what contingency plans have they got if it all turns sour, as it most surely will in the end?

This will be the biggest experiment in social engineering in the history of the world. And it's all being done by people who don't care about losing our civilization, and care even less about what the people think!

The only authority figure I can think of that actually speaks any sense on this matter is Pope Benedict XVI, and his words seem not to be heeded.

We are on the threshold of taking the first step in the direction of our own demise, to our own downfall, and it isn't even going to be a baby one: it will be a giant leap! A giant leap into disaster!

Posted by: Mark at October 1, 2005 12:46 PM

Austria should say: 'If they enter, we leave'.

Posted by: A.G.Frederick III at October 1, 2005 1:22 PM

On the subject of Pope Benedict this is good news from this morning's Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1806461,00.html , Israel’s President is to visit the Pope at the Vatican next month.

I just spotted a link in that item to the Chief rabbi's thoughts in the lead up to Jewish New Year. It's food for thought. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1805541,00.html

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at October 1, 2005 1:22 PM

Sorry - Chief Rabbi

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at October 1, 2005 1:23 PM

Well Mark, you just seem to be stuck at the same mark and repeat your words to the letter as in your earlier post. I won't bother copying yesterday's EU topic posts.

In final analysis you don't seem to know your history about the birth of secularism in Europe, the clash betweeen the hiararchies of state and religion and finally the need to separate those two. In our case things were a lot different and there was not a clash, so the form of government did not require a separation. This is a very short note about a long history so you should study first and then come here to dicuss these, you seem to be really confused. Islam does not prescribe a form of governance as I said in my earlier post so your clamis about the incompatibility between Islam and democracy is baseless. Islamic countries just never had the chance to develop a democratic regime because of colonization and despotic puppets propped up by the west. Now the time has come. Western populace is scared to death I can see that, that's because of the fear of the "other" in your culture engraved mostly by religious leaders and fear monger paranoids. Fortunately wer're living in a globalized world and things continually change.

An Austrian bureaucrat asked his Turkish counterpart what we were doing at the gates of Vienna. He answered "We were returning yor visit."

- But mama, they are different from us.
- It's OK my kid, you won't be scared if you trust yourself.

Posted by: Aegean at October 1, 2005 1:36 PM

"This will be the biggest experiment in social engineering in the history of the world."
-- from a posting above

Yes, everyone running the show thinks anything goes, anything and everything can be achieved. The past 1350 years of history can easily be overcome. The immutable texts of Islam can be ignored -- we don't take them seriously, so why should they? Besides, if we did, we simply wouldn't know what to do.

And furthermore, since we already allowed in so many Muslims that there are now in the Lands of the Infidels within Europe at least 20 million, and we haven't any way that we can think of to deal with that, we had better let in another 70-80 million and hope that that will make everything turn out all right. I mean, it's just got to.

A nice illustration of the attitude of many of those -- not leaders, but taking, as in Business-School talk, a "leadership role" -- is General Myers. Not a well-educated man, not a thoughtful thought, not an imaginative man likely to show a certain reserve and lack of enthusiasm for the Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations Project. No, more in the nature of an eager and unquestioning parrotter of the unexamined (by its proponents) Administration line.

And what was it he said on Thursday? Myers said that "we are attempting in Iraq what has never been attempted before. It's historic."

Oh, it's historic, all right. Brand new. Gee whiz. Can do. Nothing stops Yankee ingenuity. Hell, we'll go right in, and they'll be so grateful we'll never hear the end of it. And then, once we spend those billions making everyone happy with new schools and new hospitals and water-treatment plants, not only will they love us even more than they did at first, but the new-and-improved, democratic-as-all-bejeesus, Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations (well, at least to any Shi'a nations, or make that, any Shi'a Arab nations, that might exist, because a Shi'a ruled Iraq will cut no ice with Sunni Arabs anywhere) will be a fantastic achievement.

Never tried before. Something the world has never seen before -- and we are doing it. Isn't that great?

It's historic.

Posted by: Hugh at October 1, 2005 1:37 PM

Why let Turkey join they even refuse to watch the movie Arrarat. They hate western society Islamic terrorists have killed westerners letting them join us is an insult to the dead victims of Islamic terror.

Posted by: mark52 at October 1, 2005 1:39 PM

Europe does not need Turkey. It has and always will be the border between Europe and the Orient. Unfortunately Europe is working on two levels. One level is wher the employers and "Capitalist" oligarcy thrives and the other is where the ordinary Joes live and strive to survive.
Islam and Islamists have successfully latched on like leeches to the European teat. No "Islamic" country has an aconomy that comes anyhwere near to what social advantages are available in the infidel West.
These un-social parasites should be excluded in no uncettain terms fom the benefits of Western cultures that have been wrought from years of social challenge and subjugation.
No Islamic country has produced anything constructive towards present day development either culturally, scientificall or industrialy.
ANYONE DRIVE AN ISLAMIC CAR?. WATCH AN ISLAMIC MADE TV?. GET TREATED BY A unique ISLAMIC MEDICAL PROCESS or even BE PURSUADED BY AN ISLAMIC PEACE MOTIVE??
No effin chance. They are all a bunch of deadshits and camel shaggers living in cloud cuckoo land, high on the fumes of oil revenues frovided by the West.

Posted by: Sir Cumfrence at October 1, 2005 2:13 PM

"Europe does not need Turkey. It has and always will be the border between Europe and the Orient."

Wrong. In the 15th century, the Muslims conquered what had been Christian-controlled land, the so-called Eastern Roman Empire, and finally successfully took its great capital, Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453.

Europe should re-conquer this occupied land, rather than admit the Occupiers into the EU.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 1, 2005 3:53 PM

eaglecap:

It is not just 70 million Turks we are talking about. I believe Turkey has a law that allows all those who claim Turkic ethinicity to claim Turkish citizenship as of right. The frontier thus exists to the Muslim Uighurs in Xinjiang, China. We are now talking of some 100 million.

Besides, once Turkey is in, it will be its islamic duty to allow muslims from neighbouring countries to get into Europe.

Goodbye Europe, hello Sharia.

The trageduy is that despite being rebuffed by Turkey, the US is still playing the dhimmi to Turkey.

Posted by: DP111 at October 1, 2005 7:36 PM

An interesting aside.

Iran, a fundamentalist islamic state, supports Turkey's entry to the EU. This simply confirms the islamic agenda. If anyone is thinking within the EU elite, this in itself should give pause for thought.

Posted by: DP111 at October 1, 2005 8:01 PM

From gandalf:

Bali has been bombed ..again.

People have been murdered..again

Our leaders will condemn..again

Our leaders will do nothing..again

Islam will say it is a "religion of peace"..again

Politicians will say "its a small minority"..again

People will protest, not to be heard..again

Muslims will say "they are the victims"..again

Then surely Islam will kill..again

http://uppompeii.blogspot.com/

Also an article on Turkey's entry to the EU from one of the few Brit bloggers active on the islamisation of Britain.

http://uppompeii.blogspot.com/

Posted by: DP111 at October 1, 2005 8:17 PM

DW/JW Alert

The Bali massacre is quite likely to bring forth the re-appearance of ia786 and KT. These events always bring these two out to preach tolerance to us all, while gloating at the massacre of Infidels.

Posted by: DP111 at October 1, 2005 9:14 PM

Well, I did my best as a good British citizen. I emailed the Austrian embassy to tell them I wholeheartedly supported them, that few if any British people wanted Turkey to join the EU, and that Jack Straw and his colleagues did NOT represent a majority of British people.
Obviously this wasn't enough, though.
However, since there will be something like ten years of negotiations before Turkey is accepted, we still have time to block this idiotic move.
As a first step I think we (i.e. any Brits reading this site) should email our MPs and MEPs and, politely but firmly, make our views known. Or send them a letter, which is less likely to be ignored than an email.

Posted by: Aardvark at October 3, 2005 7:41 PM