Well... just because they are being abused does not mean that we should accept what they say of themselves. 5,000 not even Sanskrit, let alone Sindhi (which is a post-Sanskrit language) was spoken in the Indus valley. And let us not forget that whatever the Punjabis may be doing to the rest of Pakistan, the Sindhis of today are no less Muslim than the Punjabis, Pathans and Baluchis. Just another case of Muslims oppressing Muslims, I'm afraid.

Posted by: Paolo at October 7, 2005 8:06 AM

This story is yet another example of how the West (particularly the US) has encroached into regional politics to serve a specific purpose and now, everyone scurries about trying to swat the flies, wondering where the pile of doo-doo came from. The US has been complict in fincnacial and political support in Pakistan for decades, angering India, funding the Madrasas in the hopes of producing radicals to fight communism that was knocking on the door in Afghanistan. As the US and Pakistani governments fellated each other, the radicalism took root, unchallenged, and produced one of the worst regimes we've ever seen. And we wonder why the Sindhi culture is feeling pressure????

http://www.samachar.com/features/221102-features.html

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 8:08 AM

I've changed my mind, KT. You and kj wouldn't have an argument- you'd have a major agreement. Three cheers for not standing in the way of the USSR in the 70s and 80s, eh?

Posted by: Gary at October 7, 2005 8:18 AM

Gary: "Three cheers for not standing in the way of the USSR in the 70s and 80s, eh?"

King: Three cheers for being so dense that you just discredited yourself! What I've posted is simply a concept beyond your comprehension.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 8:23 AM

Can Peace Dividends Flow From India Strategic and Political Compromises on J&K Issue:

Even if one pre-supposes that India strategic and political compromises are well worth for the cause of peace, the important question that then arises is whether peace dividends will necessary follow such a step?

An objective analysis of all contemporaneous factors would indicate that it would not be so. The Pakistani General was seriously voicing the Pakistani establishment views a couple of years back that even if Kashmir is resolved, there will be many more Kashmirs to come. It is a strategic reality that must hover over any Indian policy formulations towards Pakistan

http://saag.org/papers16/paper1542.html

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 7, 2005 8:37 AM

bullshit on all counts, kt. show us what would have happened otherwise.

And I know, guys. I shouldn't feed the troll.

Posted by: Gary at October 7, 2005 9:38 AM

"Peccavi," the British general Sir Charles Napier was supposed to have wired back to England in 1843,upon the completion of his successful military campaign. "I have Sind."

Alas, the story may be apocryphal. The wire cannot be found, and it is said that someone else, an Englishwoman, and after the fact, came up with the pun, attributed it to Napier, and everyone was delighted to believe its attribution to him.

As for the destruction of Sindhi culture by Pakistani Muslims, the indifference or hostility to all things that are non-Islamic, pre-Islamic, have nothing to do with Islam, whether Mohenho-Daro, or the Roman ruins in the Middle East or even the pyramids (which Egyptian nationalists protect, but the Muslim Brotherhood, if it had its druthers, would no doubt destroy) 1350 years of destroying all sorts of cultural artifacts -- Greco-Buddhist statuary in Afghanistan (the Bamiyan Buddhas had to wait until suitably powerful explosives could be found), churches and synagogues all over the Middle East demolished or seized and quarried for Muslim builders, or put to Muslim uses (hundreds of churches in Istanbul alone were defaced, vandalized, or comletely destroyed, with only the mosaics paid for by Theodore Metochites in the Church of St. Saviour in Chora comparatively unscathed), the tens of thousands of Hindu temples destroyed in India, many of them to be found in the impressive lists compiled in the two-volume work by Sita Ram Goel, the dozens of Orthodox churches destroyed in Kosovo and Bosnia within the last year, by rampaging Muslims (Albanian and Bosnian). And then there is a matter that goes beyond destruction of churches, synagogues, Hindu temples (even of Muslim sites by the fanatical Wahhabis -- see what the Saudis have done in Mecca and Medina, as cruelly destructive as the greediest capitalist developer in a Krokodil cartoon). Islam teaches Muslims not to care about their own history, the history that came before Islam. The Shah and his father both tried to direct attention to the pre-Islamic past, to Persepolis, to Darius and Cyrus. One can hardly imagine Khomeini or his epigones doing the same -- instead, one suspects that if they could they would destroy everything connected with Persian civilization before the "gift of the Arabs" arrived.

And of course, this indifference to everything outside of Islam, creates a very dull Muslim boy: a one-dimensional man, who only with difficulty, despite and not because of his environment, might acquire a curiosity about the non-Islamic world, and the past of those lands now so thoroughly islamized.

Visit Assisi. There in the midst of the square, across from the local Pinacoteca, is the Temple of Minerva. A Roman, and a pagan structure. Yes, it was made into, used as, a church. But never was its original function forgotten. Christendom did not destroy, or ignore, classical, pagan antiquity. No doubt the Italian Humanists helped to more intently study, to more deeply rediscover, classical antiquity, but never did it suffer under Western Christendom, what pre-Islamic or non-Islamic cultural artifacts and mental constructs suffered, and suffer now, and will suffer, everywhere that Islam prevails. Islam is not another "civilization" but an enemy of civilization. It cannot abide, it cannot permanently accommodate (though temporary accommodation may be feigned, may be necessary) the non-Islamic. That would betray the essence of Islam.

And if tomorrow, or next month, or next year, or the year after, you saw in The Daily Scream this headline: "Louvre (Prado, National Gallery, Uffizi, Alte Pinakothek, Rijksmuseum) blow up, and then justto the left of it, and lower down, the standard item from Washington: "Bush insists we stay the course in Iraq" : This Is No Time to Cut and Run" neither one of those headlines would surprise you -- would they?

"Peccavi" -- so wrote, or had ascribed to him (a welcome a-scribal error), the Napier who was not naturally (I'm afraid the paronomastic impulse must be assuaged) logarithmic.

"Peccato" we now unpunningly can claim as our own comment on what is happening to Sindhi culture today.

Sorry, Sind. Pakistani Muslims of the True Believer type are just doing what has always comes naturally -- to Islam, and to Muslims.

Posted by: Hugh at October 7, 2005 9:42 AM

pile of doo-doo

Posted by: Beagle at October 7, 2005 9:43 AM

Gary: "bullshit on all counts, kt. show us what would have happened otherwise. And I know, guys. I shouldn't feed the troll."

King: >50% of your self-discrediting contributions are directed at me. It is I who feed you!
Once again, I direct your attention to the argument and offer that the madrasas in Pakistan were funded and fortified at the behest of Western governments to produce the most hard0line, radical militants possible to go and fight the invading Soviet Army. There was an "opportunity" to exploit the common ground of mutual hatred towards communism and absolutely no attention was paid to the potential to destablize that region once these super-charged lunatics were unleashed and uncountered in the years to come.
These brainwashed mutants of human beings became the Taliban once they were discarded by the West to fight over the scraps left in Afghanistan and wreaked havoc on their own people, people who are Muslim and denounce the very existence of militant Islam.
You see, Gary, you choose to repudiate the parts of the story that involve the West's role in the current state of affairs. In doing so, you appear so intellectually vacuous, so ignorant, that it is not surprising that you choose to bark at others not to "feed the troll."

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 10:34 AM

Hugh: "Pakistani Muslims of the True Believer type are just doing what has always comes naturally -- to Islam, and to Muslims."

King: OK, Hugh. I've never really asked you this before, so please indulge me for a moment and entertain the following scenario:

You, Hugh, are now hold a position powerful enough to influence world politics. You are asked to offer your advice in order to form policy that will significantly affect Anglo-Islamic relations.

What would it be?

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 10:44 AM

Scroll by the troll, folks, nothing to feed here.......

Posted by: albion at October 7, 2005 10:45 AM

The west maynot be entirely blameless but the principal blame resides with the darkness in the heart of islam - the mentality it engenders, rather.

Raking up past western policies as principal culprits is akin to diversionary tactics - something that leftists and islamopologists very often resort to.

BTW, leftism/marxism/maoism etc has a poor record at preserving and nourishing cultural values besides. Mao's cultural revolution all but wiped out China's historical relics, books, temples etc. And the left in the west today teaches schoolkids to hate and revile their own history, culture and religion in the name of multiculturalism etc.

Gary, I know the temptation is strong to respond to a troll's lies (I've sorta succumbed too, here) but in the long run, it pays to stay clear of trolls altogether.
/Just a thought. Have a nice day (:-)

Posted by: voletti at October 7, 2005 10:53 AM

"Scroll by the troll, folks, nothing to feed here......."

King: Capitulating already? Have you nothing to say about the Western funding of madrasas or the article I've posted? I suppose it is easier to dismiss this a being a troll, rather than backing your position up in a mature, intellectual fashion.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 10:53 AM

KT-

Don't you ever read Hugh's posts? He is very clear on his policy choice, disengagement and isolation.

Posted by: treehugger at October 7, 2005 11:00 AM

Voletti: "I know the temptation is strong to respond to a troll's lies (I've sorta succumbed too, here) but in the long run, it pays to stay clear of trolls altogether."

King: Wow! Three capitulations in a row, recorded on this Blog for all to see. Sorry, but I did not think it would be as easy as just being tenacious and steadfast in my views.

Indeed, Voletti, the West has plenty of egg on its face and while you somehow transpose this to the "black heart of Islam" you, like Gary, dismiss the "blackness" of what the West has done time and again in exploiting people and/or religions without any regard for the fallout. This is exactly what pisses off the Muslim world about the West.
The US cut and ran out of Afghanistan like skunks, wishing the innocent, peaceful people well, and watched the Taliban take hold and proliferate like insects. Pakistan enjoyed money, political and military support and most likely nuclear ecrets as well, to the dismay of India who begged for the US to cease this policy. Only now are we seeing the results of how meddling in things we do not understand can come back to haunt in the worst of ways.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 11:01 AM

Treehugger: "Don't you ever read Hugh's posts? He is very clear on his policy choice, disengagement and isolation."

King: I want to hear from Hugh. Thanks for the paraphrasing, though.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 11:03 AM

Which Sindhis are they talking about? Those in Pakistan gave up their right to be called one when they maimed.murdered and exiled their Hindu brothers in the autumn of 1947.

Paolo says:the Sindhis of today are no less Muslim than the Punjabis

No Paolo there are 11 million of us the Hindu Sindhis world over. (Actually ima part Sindhi). And there are over 50million Punjabi Sikhs/Hindus who are the real Punjabis.

The Muslim Sindhis speak a bastradised language born when Sindhi was raped by Arabic... they have completed Arabised in last 50 years. Hindu Sindhis are a culturally dead people. numbering 8 million in the 1.2 billion strong India. Our lore,language,culture is dying...

Alas nobody can help it...

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 7, 2005 11:07 AM

Which Sindhis are they talking about? Those in Pakistan gave up their right to be called one when they maimed.murdered and exiled their Hindu brothers in the autumn of 1947.

Paolo says:the Sindhis of today are no less Muslim than the Punjabis

No Paolo there are 11 million of us the Hindu Sindhis world over. (Actually ima part Sindhi). And there are over 50million Punjabi Sikhs/Hindus who are the real Punjabis.

The Muslim Sindhis speak a bastradised language born when Sindhi was raped by Arabic... they have completed Arabised in last 50 years. Hindu Sindhis are a culturally dead people. numbering 8 million in the 1.2 billion strong India. Our lore,language,culture is dying...

Alas nobody can help it...

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 7, 2005 11:07 AM

Which Sindhis are they talking about? Those in Pakistan gave up their right to be called one when they maimed.murdered and exiled their Hindu brothers in the autumn of 1947.

Paolo says:the Sindhis of today are no less Muslim than the Punjabis

No Paolo there are 11 million of us the Hindu Sindhis world over. (Actually ima part Sindhi). And there are over 50million Punjabi Sikhs/Hindus who are the real Punjabis.

The Muslim Sindhis speak a bastradised language born when Sindhi was raped by Arabic... they have completed Arabised in last 50 years. Hindu Sindhis are a culturally dead people. numbering 8 million in the 1.2 billion strong India. Our lore,language,culture is dying...

Alas nobody can help it...

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 7, 2005 11:09 AM

Which Sindhis are they talking about? Those in Pakistan gave up their right to be called one when they maimed.murdered and exiled their Hindu brothers in the autumn of 1947.

Paolo says:the Sindhis of today are no less Muslim than the Punjabis

No Paolo there are 11 million of us the Hindu Sindhis world over. (Actually ima part Sindhi). And there are over 50million Punjabi Sikhs/Hindus who are the real Punjabis.

The Muslim Sindhis speak a bastradised language born when Sindhi was raped by Arabic... they have completed Arabised in last 50 years. Hindu Sindhis are a culturally dead people. numbering 8 million in the 1.2 billion strong India. Our lore,language,culture is dying...

Alas nobody can help it...

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 7, 2005 11:10 AM

Sorry for ultiple posts... there something wrong with my browser.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 7, 2005 11:13 AM

Hilarious!

Straight from Absurdistan:

King Troll:

"he US cut and ran out of Afghanistan like skunks, wishing the innocent, peaceful people well, and watched the Taliban take hold and proliferate like insects."

Ever been to Afghanistan, King?

You mean innocent as in "noble savages" -but peaceful? Never!

Every Afghani walks around with a gun, ever since gunpowder was invented! What has the US got to do with that?

King of fantasy productions:

"....funding the Madrasas in the hopes of producing radicals to fight communism that was knocking on the door in Afghanistan. As the US and Pakistani governments fellated each other, the radicalism took root, ..."

Go to Hollywood, King!

I hear they are making movies there now where the stewardesses are the terrorists. Straight up with your line of 'thinking', ain't it?

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at October 7, 2005 11:20 AM

Capitulating to you?

LOVFLI

You do hold yourself in high regard old lad...oh, what am I saying? You are a Muslim, when all is said & done.

There really is no point discussing / debating anything with you, you never concede a point even when you are dragged to the truth of any matter & have your face rubbed in said truth by those of the kind of intellectual stock you & I can only dream of, so whats the point?

Beating ones head against a wall of dogma & deceit is far down my "to do" list today.

Scroll by the troll, folks, nothing to feed here.......

Posted by: albion at October 7, 2005 11:23 AM

There's a careless contempt among people from other parts of Pakistan towards the people of Sind which seems to run very deep. I heard a Pakistani colleague speak with complete venom about a Sindhi. Except I misheard and thought he was talking about a Cindy which is the British equivalent of a Barbie Doll. I know most Dads find the paraphanalia irritating but I couldn't understand why this person was so disgusted about a toy. He explained that Sind was an area within Pakistan, but that the people were not Pakistani (although he accepted that many (then, probably most now) were Moslem and "were not like us" At best, he said, they were difficult and pequliar, at worst... and he pulled a face and shrugged. I know a little more of the background now from these articles.

Going slightly OT I heard the BBC3 Radio programme World Music a few weeks ago. One of the themes of that weeks programme was an interview with a young man of Pakistani heritage who had been working to revitalise and conserve the folk music tradition in Pakistan. He touched on several issues. The effect of the ban on music attempted by General Zia and the improvement to musicians of the "more benevelent despot" (his words not mine) in power now. The effect on Pakistani music of the Afghan musicians who had left the Talibans sucessful bid to ban music. The fact that folk music was dieing out in some areas not because (as the BBC presenter thought) because of the effect of Western pop music but because of the effect of Arabic music. The dearth of women singers, this being discouraged in public. he played one record by the only woman singer of national renown. I forget her name but she had an interesting voice and it was acceptable for her to continue to sing because of her mature years. No young woman was likely to be able to establish a similar career now under the current ethos. She also sang in several different languages, which languages and songs were dieing out as Urdu became more prevalent. Which is where we came in and why this thread about Sindhi culture has reminded me.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at October 7, 2005 11:24 AM

Oh, I st there typing away on my trusty steam powered computer and by the time I'm ready to post there are 8 more posts on. I was waiting to see what Vikrant's view is, him being part Sindhi his opinion is of particular value.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at October 7, 2005 11:31 AM

Granny.. theres no such thing as Pakistani music,Pakistani food,Pakistani culture. The music they sing is Indian classical, the food they eat is Indian theirs is a bastardised Arabian culture. Intrestingly i think i've seen that singer whom you mention on some Pakistani channel called "Q tv" They have at the Bangladeshi conershop where i work part-time on Fridays and Saturdays.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 7, 2005 11:44 AM

Albion: "Beating ones head against a wall of dogma & deceit is far down my "to do" list today."

King: And yet, here you are on your SECOND post to me, ignoring your very own advice since you know I have a perspective that is valid, albeit different than yours. I know you were expecting to come to a place to bark, whine and perseverate about your hatred for Islam free of charge but there are others who can and do oppose you and that's what you cannot stand.

Albion: "You are a Muslim, when all is said & done"

King: Sheesh! Being that you still cling to this shows me who is actually beating their head against the wall! Why would I concede anything to somebdoy who still thinks they're arguing with a Muslim when, in fact, I am nothing more than a secular American who happens to see things differently?

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 11:46 AM

Secular American? Pull the other one, its got Allahs testicles on it.

Unlike you, I have been proven wrong on several occasions here at DW / JW, & have conceded the points. You never do, KT, which is why its a waste of time crossing swords with you.

Hence there is no point scrollin' & a trollin' with you, sir.

By ignoring you from here on in & out, please do not get the impression that you have some sort of victory.

(Well, you can if you like. I know how important it is for you to feel superior in every way over the Kuffar Infidel)

Posted by: albion at October 7, 2005 11:57 AM

Hi Vikrant
I take your point but that was how this young chap presented himself. Perhaps his interest would have been better described as folk music from the areas now collectively called Pakistan. He was at some pains to explain how the music he was about to play differed from Classical music and was often looked down on. He described it as folk music which is why my hey nonny nonny ears pricked up and took notice. I think he would agree with you regarding the Arabian influence.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at October 7, 2005 12:07 PM

Albion: "By ignoring you from here on in & out, please do not get the impression that you have some sort of victory."

King: Victory over what????? I am not here to 'win' anything. I'm here to debate and discuss one of the most compelling issues of our time. I hold my perspective and learn things and trust you try to do the same. All I ever asked for is a civil debate and the record will reflect that. Instead, I have entertained one ad hominem post after the other, drawing out the sewage that clogs the mentalities of many folks who "troll" here as well. I shall not concede any point to people who do not deserve it.

I am more than willing to go tabula rasa with you but I dish as I get...

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 12:15 PM

King:

Chewing the cud, like a cow in the field, causes a condition known as 'Flatulenza Islamiya'- Scientists claim that exactly these kind of greenhouse gasses cause the ozone-hole, the melting of the polar-ice and tsunamis.

There is a cure for that condition..

But in your case, I'm not so sure....

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at October 7, 2005 12:37 PM

Yeah, I saw that the three other times you've posted that. (eyes rolling)

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 7, 2005 12:54 PM

king tolerance - if you think that albion will actually ignore you now then forget it

he announced to me very grandiosely a week or so ago "this is our last communique - you have been served - over and out!"

since then he has spoken out very clearly against things ive said, very directly, without condescending to use my screenname of course

he actually thinks tony blair is a socialist, if you can get your head round that

he is an english pagan,(nothing new there) check out "leicestershire pagans" (which he has referred to lovingly on this site) on google, and the links, and see where he gets his screenname from

he is a druid boy of the lowest order, probably with a few swastikas involved, despite his recent trumpeting of his familys glorious war record

perhaps hes even one of the disaffected, dysfunctional ashby-de-la-zouch crowd, who cant even get a venue for their stupid moot, after all what decent landlord would want all that wiccan shite going down, through in the snug?

no need to worry about albion though, neocon wide boys like him (he has also bragged loudly about how well hes done out of the thatcher perversion) will very easily come to some arrangement with our imminent sharia government in th uk (great minds think alike etc)

Posted by: freddiefreeloader at October 7, 2005 2:13 PM

Songs of hope and tunes of glory
Long forgotten Albion hymns
Rise up St George and tell the story
This is how our song begins

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.thorp/lyrhero.htm

As I have been writing about Folk music from the areas of Asia now called Pakistan I can interject with some folk music from my own culture. This is from the album Rise up like the Sun by The Albion Band, or as they are called when they are playing with the Morris troup the Albion Dance Band. Good band, good name.

Throw a penny piece, a penny on the drum
And the withered rose will rise up like the sun

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at October 7, 2005 3:24 PM

Vikrant are you starting to lose the plot or something?

"there are over 50 million sikhs/hindus who are the real punjabis" - so muslim punjabis are not real punjabis?

"muslim sindhis speak a bastardised language .... they have completely arabised in the last 50 yrs" - this is just not true, missionaries in pakistan still learn sindhi, not arabic. i know cos the last time i was there i was speaking to the principal of murree language school

"there is no such thing as pakistani music, food or culture" - i mean i know you hate pakistan vikrant, having referrd to it as pukeistan and punkistan in the past, but do you think at partition, everything there suddenly stopped and became something else? it didnt. to say that everything in pakistan comes from india, as you did with kabbadi that time, is meaningless, as india and pakistan were once the same country, and the same things went on in both places, and to a very large extent, still do.

incidentally, as any non vegan westerner who knows will tell you, pak food is very much better than indian, due to the superior quality of meat and chappaties that they have. and their beer is better! check out the murree brewery company, theyre bound to have a website. yes they do just checked.

btw on the subject of the bastardisation of culture, whoever heard of an atheistic hindu englishman called vikrant?

Posted by: freddiefreeloader at October 7, 2005 4:38 PM

Tsk Tsk Freddie,
I find your rascist insults to some of the posters here very disappointing. Not very "Christian" like if ya know whatI mean. As for the troll feeding, it's one thing to take the troll's bait and attempt to refute the dipshit's logic, but cuddling up to him just to try and score cheap points against someone seems to me like a desperate measure and weakens rather than strengthens your main arguement.

Posted by: William The Crusader at October 7, 2005 6:18 PM

Methinks that the Scottish Inquisition has a little too much Scottish Spirit within tonight.

Thank you for reminding me of something Granny

Posted by: albion at October 7, 2005 6:19 PM

I'll mind my own business and not ask what.
Good night all

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at October 7, 2005 6:22 PM

A good article to look at is

http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/sindh.html

Posted by: Gorkhali at October 7, 2005 7:23 PM

Gorkhali,

This looks like an article of interest. I will read it shortly. Thanks.

Posted by: Eschwapp at October 7, 2005 7:26 PM

I suggest starting a petition "Damned Be the Trolls". This would include the likes of not just KingTaqiyya but also the freeloaders like "freddie" who do not/can not notice/appreciate the sincerety and loyalty of an immigrant like Vikrant admitting to be "British" either because he happens to be the "paki-go-home" screaming crowd or is simply intellectually and socially inept.

Mr. Freeloader also tries a cheap dig at Vikrant with reference to his "bastardization of culture" line. "The mark of an educated mind is to be able to entertain an idea without
accepting it." -- Aristotle. I would think that explains Vikrant's mentality completely from what I get of him. Also the troll freeloader does not see a difference between adoption of selective ideas after critical enquiry and widescale ignorance, demonization and historical revisionism that Vikrant was talkin bout with regards to Pakistani Sindhis. For freddie, cheap digs are all that matter for he is incapable of fathoming the kind of mature reasoning that goes into balancing with critical enquiry and introspection one's own culture (Vikrant's Indian culture) and one;s adopted one, which Vikrant seems to be doing extremely well. Perhaps Freddie would like Vikrant to be screaming "racism" and "victimization" and blow himself up fidayeen-style so he could justify his own feeble ideas.

Let's throw out our garbage...

Posted by: Tushar Saxena at October 7, 2005 9:16 PM

`so muslim punjabis are not real punjabis?`

No they are not. The illusion of Punajabi, Sindh etc. is kept alive through the boundaries drawn at even before Partition for administrative purposes.

They all speak Urdu - not punjabi, sindhi, gurumkhi script etc. The little they do is bastardised with strong elements of Arabic holding sway.

Which is why indian movies and cassetes do roating business there. To express themselves Paki artistes have to leave for India.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 7, 2005 11:24 PM

Tushar Saxena:

I too have noticed those antics with a great tendency to slip into racism. Vikrant`s right about the bastardization of Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. which is in line with `jihad`.

Notice: `this is just not true, missionaries in pakistan still learn sindhi, not arabic. i know cos the last time i was there i was speaking to the principal of murree language school`

Now the sindhis there go to a language school to learn sindhi. What do they speak at home? and where do they go to try to spread jihad that they need sindhi? India of course.

And look at that below-the-belt usage of `kabbadi` to illustrate his point. Kabbadi is also played by vthe South Indians. It is not a North Indian fixture. I would call that sophistry.
And finally he gets a hangover from murree beer (which i hear is good), only to be drunk by the non-muslims there.
The Paki muslim farmer doesn`t waste his time with that. He gets excellent `thara` smuggled in from the Punjab acoss the border.
And obviously the freeloader has not tried the gorgeous `sarson da saag` that i had in Chandigarh or the `Tomato Fish` in Amritsar. And there`s a whole lot else.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 7, 2005 11:49 PM

Hm. I guess I should know better, but I do not like to see disgraces to the site such as leavingtheleft (who has repeatedly stated his desire to kill all Muslims, including children), Tushar Saxena (an ignorant Christian hater with whom I have had words in the past) and Albion (whom Freddie has got down to a T - weird, isn't it, how that half-fascist half-new age druidic shit mixes so well with Thugcherism?) ganging up on Freddie for talking no more than sense. These people start from an agenda of hate - in leavingtheleft's case, murderous hate, not only indulged but vaingloriously displayed - and cannot understand why anyone might not be interested in the physical destruction of a state, however disfunctional. Ignore them, Freddie; to be insulted by them is a compliment. (To be in the same bracket as 'kkin'tolerance is not, but it is true that Albion did the same stunt with me - promised to ignore me and forthwith produced several more screeds of argument-less insults.)

Posted by: Paolo at October 8, 2005 12:50 AM

`(who has repeatedly stated his desire to kill all Muslims, including children)`- posted by Paolo at October 8, 2005 12:50 AM

Paolo you are a filthy liar and a scoundrel. It only shows your parents did not bring you up well.

And now you are an accomplice to the spread of terror and its furtherance.
And may the curses of the 60 million indian victims of jihadi terror fall upon you and your ilk.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 8, 2005 1:19 AM

And Paolo, You don`t like to see `disgraces to the site` then go to school and learn comprehension before you make your presence.
But then the education system these days isw`t what it used to be is it?

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 8, 2005 1:25 AM

O Paoloooo:

Another thing I learnt in self-defense was to avoid `murderous hate` cos that will work against you.
Tou have to be cold about it.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 8, 2005 1:38 AM

O Paoloooo:

Another thing I learnt in self-defense was to avoid `murderous hate` cos that will work against you. You have to be cold about it.
You have not even assimilated the rudimentary means to say alive. Gone john you are.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 8, 2005 1:43 AM

Alas, Paolo and freddie have provided themselves as perfect examples on the platter of arguments in favor of shutting down the comments section. Paolo, namecalling is easy. Christian hater? *scoff*. Just reminding people not to forget the Christian butchery of middle ages does not make me a 'Christian-hater'. One Inquisition u might like to look up is the Goa Inquisition, the cruelest one, according to some researchers. Yes, we are not in the middle ages anymore and Christianity does have the "love thy enemy" kind of teachings. Truth hurts, Paolo I know. But I believe it to be my duty to remind people, lest they become myopic that the crimes of Islam does not wipe out the crimes of early/medieval Christianity. Dont even start with the 'moral equivalence' argument...there is no equivalent today. Islam is the 800-pound gorrilla.

Period.

Now get a life.

PS - Paolo I enjoy reading your comments on articles...they are usually informative..it turns out that the 'troll' virus might have infected you.

Posted by: Tushar Saxena at October 8, 2005 2:21 AM

Tushar Saxena wrote: "I believe it to be my duty to remind people, lest they become myopic that the crimes of Islam does not wipe out the crimes of early/medieval Christianity"

This is a curious statement. At least in the past 50 years throughout the West (and it really goes back much further than that, perhaps some 250 years, when we think of all the "reminding" the Enlightenment Philosophes did), there has been a veritable mountain of "reminding" our Western selves how bad our West has been throughout history. Our college courses are full of such reminders; in many cases our schooling prior to college is full of such reminders; our history books and historical novels are full of such reminders; our PBS and BBC specials are full of such reminders; weekend newspaper articles are full of such reminders; magazine articles are full of such reminders; our movies and TV dramatizations have been full of such reminders; our political and religious leaders have been part of these reminders -- even to the pinnacle when the Pope has apologized for various Western crimes of history (including the Crusades, the Inquisition, Galileo, etc.).

At the crest of this nauseating mountain of self-critical overkill, for someone to feel that they have a "duty to remind people" of this mountain is rather silly, to say the least. Talk about myopic !

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 8, 2005 3:23 AM

this is just not true, missionaries in pakistan still learn sindhi, not arabic. i know cos the last time i was there i was speaking to the principal of murree language school

freddie dont argue about things you dont know a shit about. Did you happen to see the script of the language.. tell me. They write it in arabic acript while original Sindhi is written in its own unique acript which is similar to devnagri. Same applie to Punjabi and Kashmiri spoken by Muslims.

freddie writes:i mean i know you hate pakistan vikrant, having referrd to it as pukeistan and punkistan in the past, but do you think at partition, everything there suddenly stopped and became something else? it didnt. to say that everything in pakistan comes from india, as you did with kabbadi that time, is meaningless, as india and pakistan were once the same country, and the same things went on in both places, and to a very large extent, still do.

No freddie. the problem.. is Pakistanis have simply refuse to identify with Indian culture. They think of themselves as Persians rather than Indo-Aryans. They're sooo fixated with Arabs that they dont see their own rich cultural past...

As for that dig at me... isnt it what they call assimilation. I adopted a culture of my host country but Arab culture has been forced upon the Muslim Sindhis. Do you see the difference.

BTW Mister... all subcontinental food is always. In London and most home counties, Bangladeshis run most Indian restaurents... but still the food they serve is Indian as classified as such. Pakistan is term coined in 1931. The "Indian" food most ppl come across is Punjabi food. And since Pakistani Punjabis have invented fictious Arab ancestries for themselves, the Indian Punjabis are true heirs to that culture.

Anyways... believe what you want. I dont have time for Hindu baiting Christians like Paolo and Freddie.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 8, 2005 4:37 AM

Well put Vikrant,

Pope Paolo & Freddieshiftkeyinoperable

Boy, you guys bare grudges well, for Christians.

All that forgiveness & live & let live stuff on the theological backburner for you guys, huh?

We have argued with each other, called each other funny names, & hopefully learned & laughed a little along the way.

But I have never, & would never, side with a troll & an Islamofascist appeaser like KT over you guys ever. Period. I have my faults, as we all do, but boys, it would never ever occur to me to use a troll to score cheap points off of you pair, as William The Crusader rightly pointed out.

KT must have loved your post, Freddieshiftkeyinoperable. I must have hit quite a few nerves with Pope Paolo & yourself to merit such sustained hostility.

When the Scottish Inquisition, Freddieshiftkeyinoperable, first came to this site, every one thought "here be a troll". I know I did. I wonder how many people will revert to their original thought now after this little episode, Freeloader?

Whatever credibility you boys thought you had, you no longer do.

Regards
Albion

Posted by: albion at October 8, 2005 5:18 AM

We got back on the past crimes of Christianity track. This is not any sensible way to prove or disprove the ideas behind this site. If Robert Spencer was make his case about Islam by constant reference to good deeds of Christians or good teachings of Christianity, the site would be a giant non-sequitur and I wouldn't bother reading. Likewise, constant reference to the past crimes of Christianity does not give much useful information about the conflict between Islam and western values.

If someone came to me and wanted convincing that Christianity was a religion of peace, I would open a Bible. I would look at its teachings, at the writings of Christian theologians, past and modern, and at the values taught in churches. I would talk about the crimes committed in the name of Christianity, and how Christians have come to view those crimes as incompatible with the Bible. I would not start shrieking "Christiana-phobia" at them for asking the question, and I certainly wouldn't try to bludgeon them into agreement by regaling them with tales of the evil deeds of Islam, Hinduism, Aztec Solar cults or anything else. The way to learn about Christianity is to study the teachings of Christianity. Why can't we do the same with Islam? Anyone who seeks to convince me that Islam is compatible with western values of tolerance and democracy is going to have to demonstrate their case from Islamic teachings. They need to show how the terrorist and Sharia fanatic are out of line with the message of the Qur'an and Hadith.

Posted by: Viking5 at October 8, 2005 5:31 AM

Well i missed one point. Freddie is a classic textbook example of what happens when a westerner believes too much of what he reads and sees as thruth. I know hes been to Sindh... so what? That doesnt make him an expert on Pakistan affairs. Freddie for example went usual mud slinging on Hindus saying that they'ree the most deadly terrorists in the world. While Paolo thinks theres not much to Hinduism beyond caste and cows.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 8, 2005 10:02 AM

Well i was re-reading the posts here. Freedie writes about albion:probably with a few swastikas involved...

Does it ever strike you mate swastika has been a religious symbol for all Dharmic faiths for past 3500 years?... I'm not diluting the horrors of holocaust, but in all fairness Islamic Crescent is far more sinister symbol ever made.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at October 8, 2005 10:06 AM

Vikrant - the only dig ive made at you is your ott attitude towards pakistan. (not that you shouldnt criticise pakistan, theres plenty there to be criticised). incidentally this is precisely the same ott attitude pakistanis have towards india, hence all the problems in the subcontinent.

the last question i asked you was not intended to slight you, as some have disgracefully suggested. it was intended to illustrate the fact that all culture, language and even food will change through external influence eventually (or be bastardised, to use the word you yourself used).

as to language in pakistan, only 7.57% of the population had urdu as mother tongue in 1993, and in 1999, the total number of urdu speakers in the world, including those who had it as a second language, was 104,000,000. now this (a world figure) is considerably less than the population of pakistan. so what do all these other people in pakistan speak? are they dumb? no, they speak one of pakistans native languages, of which there are 72. punjabi, sindhi and pashto being perhaps the main ones. urdu, sindhi (yes) and english are listed as national/official languages. and yet one idiot above can actually say "they all speak urdu". btw there have always been arabic elements in urdu. i have been told the word "urdu" signifies in some way "camp" - it was the language that grew out of travellers from different cultures talking around a camp fire. so obviously it is influenced in many ways

mohammed ali jinnah could not speak urdu, unless he was coached for specific events. even junejo, the pm appointed by zia-ul-haq in 1985 i think, had great difficulties in urdu, much to the amusement of my urdu speaking friends, whenever he appeared on tv

as for script, well if you had any idea of the dire situation re literacy in pakistan, which to my mind is the countrys great shame (along with being the worlds third most corrupt country) then you would know how irrelevant your question is. no more than 20% of pakistanis can read, although the official fugure is higher.

you spoke also about how pakistanis identify themselves. it is perfectly natural there should be more persian influence there than in india, as the place is next to persia and afghanistan. there always was, even when the country was united with india. another thing you have mentioned once or twice vikrant is the thing about pakistanis inventing false ancestries for themselves. please let me know where you get this from as i have not heard it

Posted by: freddiefreeloader at October 8, 2005 12:36 PM

Albion - so thats me now finally consigned to oblivion is it? utterly discarded - oh dear

well as long as i dont end up your latest wicker man, i should still get along quite nicely

Vikrant ive just seen your latest posts. no there was no mudslinging - i gave you a fact about suicide bomb missions valid until 2003. you pointed out christians may have been involved and that the motivation was not religious but nationalistic which i accepted

somone has accused me of going below the belt by mentioning kabbadi again. bearing in mind how this came about - it was because some idiot in saudiland had declared football unislamic because footballers gear left too much of that dreadful thing, the human body, on display. i expressed the hope that they werent going to say the same thing about that pakistani sport, kabbadi... you immediately leapt in to say no, kabbadi is an indian sport. which indeed it is, sport. but that does not stop it being a pakistani sport

channa dahl, alu gosht, chappaties are all pakistani food - fact. this does not mean that it is not indian

this talk of kabbadi and food may seem trivial, but your approach to it seems to be how you view everything to do with pakistan

Posted by: freddiefreeloader at October 8, 2005 2:16 PM

I will presume to act as interlope:

KT directed at Hugh: "You are asked to offer your advice in order to form policy that will significantly affect Anglo-Islamic relations."

JSLA: Annihilate the ideology of Islam and everything will be OK.

That would solve most of the world's most pressing problems, and have a most glorious and significant Effect on Anglo-Islamic relations... And yep, Islam would be affected a little in the process...!

Posted by: jsla at October 8, 2005 3:37 PM

From posting above:

"i mean i know you hate pakistan vikrant, having referrd to it as pukeistan and punkistan in the past, but do you think at partition, everything there suddenly stopped and became something else? "

Well I can't think of a better control study for the comparison of Muslim versus non-Muslim culture than the partition of India in 1947. The massive sorting out of a fairly homogenous racial contituency into Muslim and non-Muslim was unprecedented in human history.

Now, 60 years later, we see India (warts and all) finally taking her place among the civilized nations of earth, striving to better the conditions of her people, and making serious progress as a liberal democracy and a capitalist economic engine.

Compare that to Pakistan (warts and, well, nothing but warts...) her stone aged recalcitrance -- her barbarity, her treacherous nuclear proliferation, her unbridled support for the Taliban, for Wahhabi Islam, her current harboring of UBL, the heinous nature of her intolerant ignorant Islamic culture.

Nothing could illustrate better the juxtaposition between following the grotesque malignancy of Islam, versus turning away from Islam and following the functional models of democracy and capitalism.

Pakistan has NO HOPE as long as it remains Islamic -- India has a bright future, silly posts above notwithstanding.

We in the West have NOTHING to apologize for in allying ourselves with the fascist religious vermin in Pakistan in order to defeat the far more powerful fascist socialist vermin in Moscow.

Now it's simply time to defeat the religious fascist vermin in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, now that they serve no useful purpose...

It's really quite simple.

Posted by: jsla at October 8, 2005 3:58 PM

jsla
quite simply well stated.

Posted by: William The Crusader at October 8, 2005 5:35 PM

“Islam is not another “civilization” but an enemy of civilization.”
from an admired poster above

King Tolerance,

Islam. Islam is my enemy. Islam is a cult and all Muslims are members. Islam is the enemy, to be fought like an enemy and stigmatized like any other murderous cult. Islam=cult

Muslims. There are no peaceful Muslims, no moderates, only those who command jihad and those who stand by and watch and do nothing and say nothing. Muslims worship the God who sanctions murder as religious duty. Muslims emulate the horror of the psycho prophet by spilling innocent’s blood. Muslims believe the hate and misogyny in the Qur'an is the immutable word of God. No child should grow up believing this abomination, learning hate, but it is taught with all sincerity by imams everywhere, insidiously calculated to press young minds into the mold of the psycho prophet. That alone should be enough to jettison Islam from the planet, but wait, add slavery, female genital mutilation, temporary child brides, stonings, limb chopping, and one can almost smell the stench of moral decay that Islam exudes. I will not, can not, respect nor tolerate such beliefs or those who hold such beliefs. Muslims=cultists

Alogistic. I've read many of your posts of various topics. I think I understand your views pretty well, but for me, they just don't feel right. They don't fit my skin. What’s more, your style and tone seems elitist, condescending, and snotty. I don't like you.

Grace. Many here have given you hard words and a hard time, and deservedly so in my opinion. But if you were truly the King of Tolerance, those words would be 'water off a duck's back' and you could drop the derision and talk like a man.

Don’t care much for you either freddiefreeloader.

Posted by: butterfly at October 8, 2005 9:37 PM

freddiefreeloader Thanks for the perspective on kabbadi. There`s been quite a bit of `kabbadi` on these posrs eh! :)

I must agree that there has been Persian influence on India, but where the islamic aspect has come in it has attempted to, with great success` in a cultural genocide` as well (food and sports notwithstanding :)

A good example of the Persian influence would be this:
Nihang is a Persian word meaning crocodile. Nihangs were suicide squads of the Mughal army and wore blue uniforms. The Sikhs took the name and the uniform from theMughals. Nihangs constitute an order of Sikhs who, abandoning the fear of death, are ever ready for martyrdom and remain unsullied by worldly possessions. A Nihang is one who has nothing and is free from anxiety. The order is said to have been founded by Guru Gobind Singh himself as a fighting body of the Khalsa. The Nihangs were also called Akalis (servitors of the Timeless God) which term has now become synonymous with the members of a political party in Punjab. (Most of them wear blue turbans).

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/movements/Nihangs/Nihangs.htm

I do like some of your posts, even if i may not agree with the contents. Which is allright. What irks me are the dalit/christianity arguments that keep cropping up. Or Vietnam or Spain or wherever.
I`m not taking sides but somehow it seems to distract from the `jihad`.

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 8, 2005 10:20 PM

typo above: `Or Vietnam or Spain or wherever`.

Spain should read `Indonesia`

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 8, 2005 10:22 PM

Albion: When the Scottish Inquisition, Freddieshiftkeyinoperable, first came to this site, every one thought "here be a troll". I know I did. I wonder how many people will revert to their original thought now after this little episode, Freeloader?

Albion,

Please indulge my little innocent showing off, but I am one who doesn’t need “to revert to my original thought”. I never left it.

You see, I knew that freddieflearider is a fraudulent troll from the very moment he started polluting this site with his vulgar deceptions thickly coated by his ostentatious Christian identity. (He even referred to himself as a “FUNDAMENTAL Christian”.)

The man reeked of fraud from the moment he sent in his first un-capitalized character. I also suggested that it is more than probable that he is a new identity of Kink Quisling after his suffering a series of systematic, painful a** kicking by those who bothered with the creature. It was obvious that this Chomskyian parrot needed some time to pass by before he once again could present the same endlessly regurgitated and endlessly refuted jumble of lies and idiocies. He needed a stand-in while he rearranges, brushes and repackages his bag of absurdities. Although I couldn’t definitely establish whether the dynamic duo indeed inhabited one physical body I knew it is just a matter of time flearider and Kink Quisling will converge on one point - their fanatical and clumsily concealed hate of Israel AND their psychopathic addiction to “trollism”. If they are not the same person then their sick compulsion makes them natural allies.

Also, as it is rather obvious that Kink Quislink is a mentally screwed up individual with strong schizophrenic traits, it is more than possible that after cloning into Freddie- flearider he entered the new role with such a maniacal passion that after a short time the clone acquired its own, stronger with each posting, identity suggesting a different person.

No I don’t mean something like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - rather something like Dr. Goebels and Mr. Quisling.

Another thing, Albion; has it ever occurred to you that freddieflearider consistent use of low case letters may be a “red herring”? I find it much too eye-catching. It strikes me as a conscious effort to create a conspicuous trait, a decoy to stress the lack of correspondence between Freddieflearider and KinkQuisling.

Not being a native English speaker I can not definitely rule the identity, or difference between of their writing styles, but they seem quite similar to me. Except the idiotic low case use by flearider punk.

Albion: Whatever credibility you boys thought you had, you no longer do.

I am not so sure these punks ever deluded themselves with thought of being credible to anyone here. They are troll(s) and their programme is to disrupt - not to convince.

Take care,

Thomas H.

Posted by: thomas. h at October 8, 2005 11:17 PM

Good lord.

KT: "All I ever asked for is a civil debate and the record will reflect that."

That must be from when he showed up, called everyone small-minded racists, and then hid behind his brilliant Middle Eastern - Anglosphere strategy: "Do nothing, act naturally." I think that same line can be found in 'Young Frankenstein'. That movie was a comedy, by the way, and a comedy in part of errors.

Until that comment I would have supposed that maybe tabula rasa was possible. Is it? Let's try.

But is KT seriously asking what Hugh's position is re: islam?

Good lord, man, can you not read?

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Posted by: Geoff at October 9, 2005 12:20 AM

Freshly Dead:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/228222/103-2377169-1878231

Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 9, 2005 12:58 AM

thomas - congratulations on another brilliant, penetrating piece of analysis

im surprised your chum terminator isnt joining in your pathetic attempt to assassinate my character oops sorry forgot hes banned

Posted by: freddiefreeloader at October 9, 2005 10:52 AM

Thomas H

Consider yourself indulged.

Best regards
Albion

Posted by: albion at October 9, 2005 11:02 AM

Albion,

I forgot to mention: I don’t think Kink is a Moslem.

He never said so and on, at least, one occasion he intimated being of Jewish origin. This is quite credible as the style of his ranting and the repertoire of his inanities bears uncanny similarity to some loony leftist Jews, some of them Israeli, I have met and listened to here.

Well, their spiritual and intellectual Fuehrer – Noam Chomsky was born a Jew, yet he has nothing but loathing for Israel and perfect understanding for the “Palestinian” murderers o Jews.

That why I refer to him as Kink Quisling, (or Kink Cretin when I am in a magnanimous mood) -rather than anything suggestive of a Moslem heritage. In fact, I would have infinitely more respect for him had he been a Moslem.

But the “man” is a traitor.
You know - that unique historical decorative element of European lampposts after a won war.

Cheers,

Thomas H.

Posted by: thomas. h at October 9, 2005 12:25 PM

"another thing you have mentioned once or twice vikrant is the thing about pakistanis inventing false ancestries for themselves. please let me know where you get this from as i have not heard it"

I think he's referring to the fact that many Pakistanis have taken the name "Syed" which is supposed to signify family lineage to Muhammad.

Posted by: helox at October 10, 2005 3:44 PM

Bullshit, kt. Go pretend to be Dr. Dawa on the other threads.

Posted by: Gary at October 11, 2005 1:27 PM