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The Foreign Policy Centre has published a pamphlet entitled, Turks in Europe: Why are we afraid? The paper's stated goal is that European multi-culturalism demands acceptance of Turkey into the EU. From EurActiv:
The prospect of Turkey’s entry into the European Union has triggered a remarkable outburst of fear and anxiety in some European member states. In France, many voters that rejected the constitutional treaty in France cited Turkey’s prospective membership as one of the reasons.This is awkward for Britain, which has taken a strategic lead in ushering Turkey into the EU. British diplomats are working desperately behind the scenes to ensure that the British Presidency is not overshadowed by the collapse of the accession talks. While EU member states agreed last December for the first round of negotiations to go ahead, the rejection of the constitutional treaty gave fresh impetus to those who had nursed the deepest reservations about this historic step in the development of the EU.
In France, Dominique de Villepin has already demanded that an extra hurdle be placed in Turkey’s way, calling upon the Turks to recognise the present Republic of Cyprus before the talks can resume. Similarly, Angela Merkel, has made opposition to Turkey’s membership her flagship foreign policy during the election campaign. Turkey, she argues, should enjoy a ‘privileged partnership’ with the EU – a euphemism for second-class status – a proposal that has backing in other, smaller member states such as Austria.
Despite this strong opposition, it is still likely that – as so often in the deliberations of the EU – a face-saving diplomatic fudge will be negotiated behind the scenes. A probable compromise will be that enlargement criteria generally will be toughened, without singling Turkey out. Thus, the issue will be kept at bay, without the explicit rejection of Turkey’s membership. It is not difficult to imagine how potentially damaging and perhaps disastrous such diplomatic gamesmanship could be when reported in the Turkish media.
It is lazy to write this off as another EU fiasco. The real problem lies in the fear that the governments of certain member states have of their own publics. It cannot be argued often enough, or forcefully enough, that it is in our collective economic, geo-political and strategic interest to bring our key ally in the Muslim world into the EU. European politicians are rightly sceptical of the American inclination to see a ‘clash of civilisations’ in the 21st Century. At the same time, in the wake of 9/11, the Madrid bombings and the attacks on London, we cannot hide from the problem of militant Islam and its appeal to young Muslims living in the West. Here is a supremely important opportunity to welcome a secularised Muslim state into the family of European nations.
But hope will not win over fear unless we understand what makes Europeans frightened of Turkey’s membership. We have to grasp why so many are so afraid, and the role that labour market crowding and supposedly ‘insurmountable’ cultural differences play in nurturing these anxieties.
As Sarah Schaefer argues in this pamphlet, some countries such as Germany that have large Turkish populations fear further migration because they have not yet come to terms with the post-war influx of Turks. Rather than integrating migrants into German society, successive German governments have pursued the opposite policy. The result has been the emergence of so-called ‘parallel societies’ where Turks and Germans live alongside each other, often without subscribing to the same set of basic values and even without speaking the same language.
There is European multi-culturalism in action. No problem. Future European governments will figure out a way to hammer that square peg into the round hole.
Many Turks living in Germany are economically disadvantaged, with unemployment biting particularly hard among the younger generation. In a country that is suffering from soaring joblessness, anxiety about further immigration is inevitable.But millions of Turks already live in Germany and their alienation from mainstream German society cannot continue if that country wants to preserve a civilised level of social cohesion. Citizenship classes and a fresh focus on German language lessons have a part to play in drawing in the younger generation and ensuring that they feel a sense of belonging. This should be all about empowerment, rather than indoctrination. Common citizenship brings freedom as well as responsibility.
That said, integration is a two-way street, which is one of many reasons why Turkish membership of the EU is about much more than trade and defence. Accession would send a powerful signal not only to Turkey itself, but to those of Turkish extraction already living in Europe; it would be a dramatic step forward in the history of European multi-culturalism and in the more urgent efforts, post-9/11, to find ways of ensuring that Muslims and non-Muslims can live side by side. In the long term, Turkish membership might encourage the emergence of a truly modern, European version of Islam: that is a form of Muslim living that also incorporates a basic set of European values, women’s equality and human rights.
This paper can be read in full at The Foreign Policy Centre's website.
Posted by at October 11, 2005 6:57 AM
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it would be a dramatic step forward in the history of European multi-culturalism and in the more urgent efforts, post-9/11, to find ways of ensuring that Muslims and non-Muslims can live side by sideOne sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Posted by: Beagle
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at October 11, 2005 7:15 AM
In the long term, Turkish membership might encourage the emergence of a truly modern, European version of Islam: that is a form of Muslim living that also incorporates a basic set of European values, women’s equality and human rights.
There's so much wrong with this one sentence that I can't bring myself to read the whole article.
First and foremost it might encourage all that nice stuff, but then again, it might not. All the evidence to date is against it.
Secondly, what on earth are 'European values', and which of these belong in a 'basic set', rather than the deluxe collection? Thirdly, how can any form of Muslim living allow women's equality? It wouldn't be Islam, if it did.
As Beagle says above, more of the same, when what we've got is bad enough already.
Posted by: Interested at October 11, 2005 7:30 AM
So, all pretence with regards to a European Democracy executing the will of the people for the people has been sacrificed on the alter of Islamofascist appeasement.
The EUrabian Empire commeth.
The Emporers of Europe, looking increasingly see through, let alone naked, have no interest in the will of the people who elected them.
If they were really interested in a get out option they should put the issue of Turkey to a mass referendum held on the same day in all EU Occupied Countries.
Then when the result comes in - & no-one is in any serious doubt as to that result - the Emporers could travel first class to Ankara, shrug their shoulders & say:
"Well, thats democracy for you".
It would be an invaluable lesson in democracy for the Turks.
Question: What if the Emporers of Europe are wrong? What if they get Turkey into the club, & all Islamofascist hell breaks loose, rather than qwelling it? Can we ask them to leave?
Posted by: albion at October 11, 2005 7:46 AM
Pollyanna couldn't be happier with this pie-in-the-sky fantasy.
Posted by: 3812Michelle at October 11, 2005 7:52 AM
This is madness. Besides looking at the historical record, all one has to do is to observe the effect that contemporary Muslims have upon the non-Muslim population of anyof the countries into which they have moved.
These analysts and the "Emperors of Europe," are so caught up in proving, maintaining, and pushing forwad their project that they lack common sense and can't see the reality that is staring them in the face.
Posted by: epg at October 11, 2005 8:19 AM
Self government: a small price to pay for the lush, intoxicating "social model." Enjoy your six week holiday while we flirt with Istabul.
Say goodnight, Europa.
Memo to Britannia: All Back Full.
at October 11, 2005 8:21 AM
Those jokers at The Foreign Policy Centre must be smoking some of that Turkish hashish.
Posted by: JanuaryMan at October 11, 2005 8:32 AM
"...we cannot hide from the problem of militant Islam and its appeal to young Muslims living in the West. Here is a supremely important opportunity to welcome a secularised Muslim state into the family of European nations."
What about this makes sense? If militant Islam appeals to young Muslims in the West, WHY INVITE MORE OF THEM??? At least the new German Chancellor is opposed to Turkey's accession. There is hope for Europe. Clearly the majority of Europeans know what is really on the Islamic agenda, due in no small part to courageous intellectuals like Theo Van Gogh (also a REAL martyr), Hirsan Ali, and Robert Spencer.
Quijybo
Posted by: Quijybo at October 11, 2005 8:52 AM
Ha ha ha. The mussulman spits on the decadent Foreign Policy Centre which does not know history.
`Near Antalya in western Turkey on a hill overlooking its Mediterranean coast , methane fires have issued from crevices since ancient times which the Greek pirates as they glided past at night wondered about . This formed the basis of the myth of Chimera in Greek mythology, a fire-breathing female monster that resembled a lion in the forepart, a goat in the middle, and a dragon behind.
Chimera is now used generally to symbolize a fantastic idea or figment of the imagination. Much diminished now, Turkey dream of becoming a full EU member might just remain a Chimera.`
http://saag.org/papers16/paper1567.html
If Kurdistan is formed then Turkey can be cut down to size. After all they are now with a degradede military.
Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 11, 2005 8:56 AM
`secularised muslim state` - no such thing!
Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 11, 2005 9:03 AM
"The real problem lies in the fear that the governments of certain member states have of their own publics."
Those damn voters!! Democracy would be so wonderful if only the people did what they were told!!
Posted by: Anacletus II at October 11, 2005 9:03 AM
What a load of bollocks!
Given that we call ourselves in the West 'democracies' Who the hell has everbeen asked to vote on whether we should become MULTICULTURAL?
Britains multiculturalism in my view extends only to living cheek by jowl with the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish and calling ouselves British.
at October 11, 2005 9:05 AM
What a load of bollocks!
Given that we call ourselves in the West 'democracies' Who the hell has everbeen asked to vote on whether we should become MULTICULTURAL?
Britains multiculturalism in my view extends only to living cheek by jowl with the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish and calling ouselves British.
at October 11, 2005 9:05 AM
What a load of bollocks!
Given that we call ourselves in the West 'democracies' Who the hell has everbeen asked to vote on whether we should become MULTICULTURAL?
Britains multiculturalism in my view extends only to living cheek by jowl with the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish and calling ouselves British.
at October 11, 2005 9:05 AM
What a load of bollocks!
Given that we call ourselves in the West 'democracies' Who the hell has everbeen asked to vote on whether we should become MULTICULTURAL?
Britains multiculturalism in my view extends only to living cheek by jowl with the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish and calling ouselves British.
at October 11, 2005 9:06 AM
What a load of bollocks!
Given that we call ourselves in the West 'democracies' Who the hell has everbeen asked to vote on whether we should become MULTICULTURAL?
Britains multiculturalism in my view extends only to living cheek by jowl with the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish and calling ouselves British.
at October 11, 2005 9:06 AM
This `reverse psychology `emanates from those placed farthest from Turkey. Earlier it was the strawman along the same lines that Europe should accept Turkey or the jihadis would slit everyone`s throats.
It does serve the purpose in the sense that it makes the Turks look like throat cutters and whatnot. Which they are of course.
Posted by: leavingtheleft at October 11, 2005 9:12 AM
I just saw the following article on the BBC's website. The subject is Yemen, but the principle is the same.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/4328894.stm
Posted by: Anacletus II at October 11, 2005 10:14 AM
"The real problem lies in the fear that the governments of certain member states have of their own publics." -- from the article.
Could they express a more open contempt for democracy? How unfortunate indeed - the governments in some member states still listen to their electorates! It used to be called accountability. Now in the ex-democracy of Eurabia, it's called a problem.
Interesting: no pro-Turkey lobbyist has explained what the EU would do if Turkey, once in the EU, votes in a total Islamic theocracy. They just say "let's hope it won't happen". It might not happen, how comforting.
And no one comments the recent Pew Poll research indicating that "only" 15% of Turks admit to supporting Islamic terrorism - that makes 10 million EU citizens willing to engage in active Jihad against Infidels or help those who do. Perhaps that could explain why some people in the EU "fear" Turkey's membership - if the elite would bother to notice such an insignificant little detail.
Posted by: rahel at October 11, 2005 10:53 AM
Part of the title includes, "...if we fail to treat Turkey with respect." Will Turkey respect the concerns and culture of Europe? Will Turkish immigrants treat their new neighbors with respect after voluntarily moving to Europe? Some will and many probably will not. Will Turkey open its'back door and allow millions of immigrants from other Islamic countries to pass through its land on the way to Europe? Who will stop that type of migration, the sort that the US is seeing on its southern border? There are many daunting "ifs" that citizens of the EU countries have to be concerned about in the coming months and years. Respect is a two-way street...
Posted by: maryrose at October 11, 2005 10:58 AM
"The real problem lies in the fear that the governments of certain member states have of their own publics." -- from the article.
The author doesn't see the folly of the statement. The governments SHOULD FEAR the public. They are elected to carry out the will of the majority. Yet in Eurabia, the will of the majority is irrelevant. Why should the elite concern themselves with public opiinion? It's irrelevant. Eurabia is a doomed enterprise and the sooner it is brought down, the better.
Posted by: John Sobieski at October 11, 2005 11:10 AM
An European friend of mine, who fleed Europe three years ago, forecast an ("EU") Turkish military parade in Paris.
Then I though he was mistaken, but today I think differently.
Indeed, we are on the verge of an European disaster. If Turkey gets into the EU, due to population growth and breeding reasons, the EUrabian army would be based in Muslim recruits.
Now, I don't find irrational to imagine EUrabian tanks rumbling past the Arc de Triomphe in less than 10 years.
Posted by: Joel CatalĂ at October 11, 2005 1:36 PM
Is reluctance to admit Turkey into the EU motivated by FEAR???
Or is it COMMON SENSE???
Discretion, it is said, is the better part of valor. Discretion should win out in this case since there is a great deal at stake.
Does anyone remember the Greek city of Smyrna's fate in 1922, by the way? I wouldn't trust Turkey either now that I think about it.
Posted by: pythagoras at October 11, 2005 1:56 PM
What is "The Foreign Policy Center" with its attention-ungetting, neutral name? Who staffs it? Who pays its bills?
We want to know just as we would like to know a little more about the staff and funding, say, of the suspiciously named "Council for the National Interest" which seems to believe that the "National Interest" is best promoted by attacking Israel at every turn, and making sure that a large number of Americans become convinced that there is nothing wrong with Islam, nothing to worry about with Muslim immigrants in either this country or in Western Europe, and that the fons et origo of our problems lies with Israel and our "unstinting" or "total" or "blind" (choose the adjective you like, depending on how close to Pat Buchanan or Paul Findley or David Duke or Ken Livingstone you feel like feeling today).
If you want to find out more about the Council for the National Interest, simply google the name "Eugene Bird." And you may also google Mrs. Bird, who happens to be paid to head a samaritan organization that "brings over" for unwary Infidel audiences "three women from Jerusalem" --as in a Benetton ad, covering all bases, with one Christian (an Arab islamochristian), one Muslim (as photogenic and dedicated to the Jihad as can be foudn), and one Jew (Israeli, far left, dedicated to defending "Palestine" and the "Palestinian people" and their rights to Jerusalem, with the dying breath of her fellow countrymen).
Yes, google both Birds -- Eugene and Jerri -- killing the reputation of two birds with one stony and implacable investigation.
And then begin to investigate, in earnest, the "Foreign Policy Center."
Post results here.
at October 11, 2005 2:06 PM
That's "Centre" not "Center" as it's near Euston, not Huston.
It does nothing, as can be seen from this cut and paste:
The Foreign Policy Centre is a leading European think tank launched under the patronage of the British Prime Minister Tony Blair to develop a vision of a fair and rule-based world order. Through our research, publications and events, we aim to develop innovative policy ideas which promote:Effective multilateral solutions to global problems
Democratic and well-governed states as the foundation of order and development
Partnerships with the private sector to deliver public goods
Support for progressive policy through effective public diplomacy
Inclusive definitions of citizenship to underpin internationalist policies.
Zzzzzz. Actually though, the idea of a 'rule-based world order' is a bit scary. 'Complete way of life' etc.
at October 11, 2005 2:47 PM
Hugh - While investigation Eugene Bird, I ran across the name F.J. Hunt, Colonel U.S.M.C., Retired. Could this be the same Colonel Hunt that appears on and acts in the capacity of advisor to Fox News? If so, this might explain the incorrect attitudes of certain Fox pundits, such as Bill O'Reilly.
Posted by: epg at October 11, 2005 2:51 PM
Wonder how many members are invited Pet Moderates just waiting to bite Tonys arse !!
Posted by: CelticBoar at October 11, 2005 2:56 PM
Seriously though we are shish kebabed if we allow this insidious political cowardice to continue.
Bring back (resurrect) Enoch Powell all is forgiven !!
Mocked and jeered at in his time ...a Statesman with the foresight and balls to tell it as he seen it !!.
at October 11, 2005 3:03 PM
Tell me more about this Colonel Hunt and his relation to Eugene or Jerri Bird. I doubt that it is the same person. O'Reilly's problem is not evil but stupidity. True, they often amount to the same thing --but I'd keep them separate here.
Posted by: Hugh at October 11, 2005 3:25 PM
Marcus Aurelius wrote something like: "I don't care about the verdict of history any more than I care about the opinions of my contemporaries."
We can vote for leaders like that. We needn't suffer rulers like him. And Aurelius isn't unique. I can think of one director at Jihad Watch who could qualifies as honest and decent and who'd make the only honest and decent politician I can think of. If there's one here, there must be others elsewhere. If free voters don't look for and find honest people to vote for, we deserve these political slugs we now have sliming across the pages of history. We don't deserve them. We have to make the effort to rid ourselves of them. It's no different from a job, you get paid for your time and effort and expertise. If one were to work hard at it, there might in time be an honest and decent politician in the House. Yes, it could happen.
Posted by: sonofwalker at October 11, 2005 3:27 PM
from post above: "Now, I don't find irrational to imagine EUrabian tanks rumbling past the Arc de Triomphe in less than 10 years."
After Hagia Sophia, Notre Dame and Chartres will make wonderful mosques, don't you think?
Posted by: NonProphet16 at October 11, 2005 3:39 PM
"...it is in our collective economic,
geo-political and strategic interest to bring
our key ally in the Muslim world into the EU."
America, the world's last bastion of capitalism, and should it so decide the world's last bastion of freedom, will in the EU lose dozens of natural allies in Britain, western Europe, Scandinavia, to a mass suicide-by-Islam.
It's funny how, after decades of promise and effort, the unification of Europe was achieved only to oversee its suicide and self-burial.
Posted by: Shaughn at October 11, 2005 3:40 PM
Me thinks that orginazition called the "Foreign Policy Centre" is composed of a damned bunch of touchy feely kiss ass Chamberlin clones.... Caution,...slippery slope straight ahead!!
Posted by: krkrjak at October 11, 2005 4:20 PM
Geographically, Turkey is in Asia. Shouldn't we allow Japan to join too? It certainly fits all the criteria for membership.
Posted by: londongirl at October 11, 2005 5:09 PM
History will not judge us kindly if we fail to treat Turkey with respect
With respect? He means that we should let Turkey into the EU. If that happens there won't be historians to write history, and it won't be worth reading anyway.
Posted by: DP111 at October 11, 2005 5:11 PM
By the time Turkey joins there will be a 100 million Turks. This does not include people of Turkish ethnicity who live in regions East of Turkey extending to China, and have the right to be Turkish citizens. In addition, by the time Turkey joins, there will be some 40 million muslims in Europe i.e., even if immigration is completely stopped. Thus Europe will have about 140 million muslims. Assuming a present EU population of 400 million, then the future total population will be around 540 million. Muslims will then comprise some 26% of the total population of the EU by the time Turkey joins. Given the demographic growth rate of muslims, this fraction will double in 20 years. In a time of just 35 years from now, muslims will be majority in the EU.
If muslims were uniformly distributed in the EU, then every nation's parliament will have a muslim majority and consequently, virtually all PMs or presidents of EU nations will be muslim. The consequences of such an outcome are too frightening to imagine.
Posted by: DP111 at October 11, 2005 5:40 PM
we respect the Turks especially the one and a half million Armenianians killed for their Christian faith.Not demanding that Turkey appolagizes for genocide would be disrespectful to the slain Turks.We want Turkey to pay for it's actions just like Germany had to.If Turkey wants to become part of the EU then it must respect it's citizens and allo for discussion of the genocide and not jail the brave people who speak out.
Posted by: mark52 at October 11, 2005 8:05 PM
What History -- Mnemsosyne with that finger at her lips -- will not treat kindly is those who allowed within the Lands of the Infidels, that is behind enemy lines, millions of Muslims who brought, undeclared and virtually unnoticed, Islam in their mental baggage, and who were allowed to settle, to live among and often on, the indigenous Infidels and, as those Muslims inexorably increased in number, and nothing was done to halt or even to reverse that increase, in ways that a generation or two ago would have seemed both obvious and just (take a look at the Benes Decree in Czechoslovakia in 1946), the supposed leaders in the countries of the West frantically appeased, or tried to integrate the un-integratable, carriers of an alien and a hostile greed, and step by step by step, the lives of those native Infidels became more expensive, more unpleasant, and more physically dangerous than they would have been without that large-scale Muslim presence, and ultimately, with the admission of Turkey to the European Union, the fate of Europe, to be islamized within a few generations just because its leaders lacked the courage and common-sense to undertake the most elementary measures for self-preservation and self-defense,was sealed, and if those criminally negligent leaders were to be sentenced for their criminal negligence, that hypothetical sentence, whether announced by History or by historians still working in the New World, would be at least as unendurably long as is this one.
Posted by: Hugh at October 11, 2005 9:02 PM
Londongirl: Most of Turkey is indeed in Asia (Minor)...but not all of it. The territory to the west of the Bosporus Strait is considered European land, at least geographically. Encase you didn't know, what today is Turkey was formerly Greece, which is not only considered European but is a member of the EU (I think...I may have to check on that one).
Turkey's occupation of territory formerly that of a staunchly and inherently European nation and its small percentage of territory considered to be geographically European constitute a mere technicality--but a technicality it can exploit to claim entry to the EU.
Japan has no such technicality to get its foot in the door (although it would probably make a far better co-state than TURKEY!).
Posted by: pythagoras at October 11, 2005 9:54 PM
There is some misinformation in Turks the article: Turks in Europe, Why Are We Afraid? First, as was already pointed earlier, 98% Turkey rests on the continent of Asia, not the European continent. From a strictly geographical point of view, Turkey is located in Asia on the world map.
Second, who can really say how history will judge us if European countries don't allow Turkey into the European Union? It is purely speculative rubbish to suggest that history will judge Europeans harshly if Turkey is not granted full access into the European Union. To make an argument that history will judge Europeans harshly is a fear tactic that is intended to elicit a strong emotional reaction which will motivate Europeans to side with multiculturalism-Islam.
Perhaps historians may equally say if Turkey does join the European union that Turkey joining the European was the impetus that strengthened Islam throughout the European continent. After all, this is likely to happen if Turkey joins the European Union. It is likely that many more mosques will be built on the streets of Europe. The cultural impact of Islam on the increase in Europe could bring unforseen consequences.
European multiculturalism has no rightful claim to demand acceptance of any one country into the European Union based on the viewpoint of multiculturalism. This is a poor excuse. Demand acceptance? What kind of power trip are these multicultural figures engaged in? The European "multi-cultural police" that are demanding Turkey's acceptance in the EU and none other than Muslims of course. It is very obvious that Turkey has absolutely everything to gain from joining the European Union and nothing to lose. At 70 million, Turkey would be one of the largest EU countries and would carry a lot of voting power to shape the future of European policy. This is a scary thought, especially since Turkey is by no means a secular Muslim country. Any acadmic worth his salt knows that Erdogan and his political supporters are by no means secular minded Muslims. It is true that there are many shades of Islam in Turkey and not all of them are moderate or secular.
There is also an exaggerated image of Turkey as a genteel place where peace loving Muslims love their Islam but don't really practice it. This is an inaccurate view of Turkey that should be clarified to the European public. In addition, the human rights record in Turkey is not good, even after some efforts to make reforms. Look what the Turks did to the Christian Armenians less than 100 years ago. Unfortunately, Turkey remains in denial that their armies drove over a million of Christian Armenians out to the desert to die. This is a travesty.
It surprises me that the United States and Great Britian are feverishly advocating for Turkey to be admitted into the European Union. Did Turkey support the U.S and Great Britian in the current war to topple Saddaam? No, not even close. Turkey didn't even allow the U.S. to use their airspace during the the war and provided little, if any assistance. It is no secret that relations are thorny right now between the U.S and Turkey. Clearly, the U.S and Great Britian don't owe Turkey a free ticket into the EU. The reality is that Turkey is backed up in a corner right now and is desperately attempting to re-kindle old allegiances in the hopes that the U.S and Great Britian can influence European opinion to admit Turkey into the Europoean Union.
Posted by: Johnathan at October 12, 2005 2:54 AM
Yes, Japan would be an infinitely preferable member of the EU. The only possible advantage I can see of living under a future Islamic caliphate is that leftists would have a considerably more difficult life than they do right now with all their Western comforts, such as free speech. It would be a delight to see their consternation if their females were told to cover up and shut up, instead of spouting their foul mouthed invective everywhere. The other advantage is that Muslims would no longer have the West to feel aggrieved about and might start feeling aggrieved instead at the violation of their human rights by this iniquitous religion.
Posted by: londongirl at October 12, 2005 4:38 AM
It's Col. David Hunt on Fox News.
Friday, September 05, 2003
Colonel David Hunt brings has over 29 years of military experience including extensive operational experience in Special Operations, Counter Terrorism and Intelligence Operations.
at October 12, 2005 9:47 AM
If the EU politicians properly knew the history of Turkey in Eastern Europe, and genuinely cared for their own people, they would be aghast at the mere suggestion of Turkish membership of the European Community.
Posted by: Elephant at October 12, 2005 12:12 PM
..several dozen turks deported back to turkey
from france..
at October 12, 2005 4:05 PM
Which part should we respect? The 3-day orgy of rape, looting, murder, and destruction that began on May 29, 1453, with the Fall of Constantinople? The devshirme, whereby Christian (and, in places, Jewish children) were taken by Muslim agents from their parents, and brought back to be trained as soldiers for the Sultan? The refusal even today to allow the Hagia Sophia to be used for Christian worship? The refusal, even today, to admit to the Armenian genocide, and to punish any Turk who dares to suggest that such an admission should be made?
What exactly is it about Muslim Turkey (I can respect plenty about Byzantium, and about the ruins of classical antiquity found hither and yon) we are supposed to respect and admire?
There is a Museum of Near Eastern Antiquities, and another one devoted to Classical (Greek and Roman) Archeology, both on the site of the Topkapi complex. In the first museum is a tiny, bar-review-sized version, in stone, of the Code of Hammurabi, and a pride of lions taken from the Ishtar Gate in Babylon (the rest of the pride is in Berlin). There is a very good used bookstore on Istiqlal Caddesi, which sometimes sells off the library of a deceased scholar, sometimes a Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany (Erich Auerbach wrote, or re-wrote, "Mimesis" while in his Istanbul exile) -- and the books displayed in the bookstore windows are most interesting. The ill-tended cemetery of the Mevlevis is touching, especially the teetering tombstone of the Hungarian convert to Islam who established the first printing-press in the Ottoman Empire (save for the Hebrew press established in 15someting in Safed). There are the monuments in stone to Sinan. There are those Iznik tiles. One is grateful that those who destroyed so much art, and vandalized the Hagia Sophia, somehow overlooked the mosaics, or most of them, in the Kariya Djami (St. Saviour in Chora). But otherwise, what exactly is one supposed to "show respect" for? The treatment of the Armenians? Of the Greeks? Of the Jews? Jamal Pasha in the vilayets that were to make up Palestine treated the Jews most fiercely, and the Jewish population in the last years of Turkish rule went down by 50%. Ataturk was very fond of Dr. Ginsberg, his Jewish dentist. But Ataturk died in 1938, and his respect and affection for Dr. Ginsberg did not prevent the Turkish government under Inonu from towiing the rickety unseaworthy Struma, with 800 desperate Jewish refugees aboard, out to the middle of the Black Sea, where it sank with all aboard (some say it was hit by a missile from a Soviet ship).
If one respects Turkey, it is mainly as the one Muslim country that managed, sua sponte, to constrain Islam in a systematic and coherent fashion, and those constraints, though weakened and under constant attack, managed to outlast the death of their originator, Ataturk.
And Turks cannot adduce, if they are trying as Muslim Turkey to be admitted to the E.C., evidence of Turkish easygoing ways (which, incidentally, Ibn Battuta noted in his Rihla, and compared the Turkish treatment of women with that of the Arabs, which was more severe), such as the fact that unlike Arab Muslims, the Turkish sultans, the Padishahin, or some of them, commissioned Western painters to paint their portraits. Hence Gentile Bellini's celebrated portrait of Mehmet II, and Titian's (now lost, I think, but a workshop copy remains) portrait of Suleiman the Magnificent. These and other such portraits are not the result of Islam, but of defiance of Islam, and therefore should not be toted up as demonstratring the fitness of Turkey for admission, because the real Islam is again on the rise, from the bottom up, and there is no Padishah, and no Ataturk, to control and constrain these new True-Green Believers.
at October 12, 2005 11:29 PM
"...History will not judge us kindly if we fail to treat Turkey with respect...."
It doesn't even sound as phony as "but will you 'respect me in the morning...?"
I spit on Erdogan.
I spit on Turkey, its government, its pretenses, on its history and everything it claims to be.
I spit on the slime-balls, the "movie-makers", the social-raisers, those who are pushed and pulled, ( by the completely insane) red-green creeps that have for so long now muddled the waters of Western Europe! By pushed and pulled, I mean subsidized, with tax-money, for worthless pet-projects, for being "artists", for worthless "art" paid for by the hapless peoples of Europe, who must be, cost it what it may, be impressed by the "achievements of their Turkish Immigrants"... I want to puke my heart out...
I think I need ... I need therapy! Who is going to pay for it?
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at October 13, 2005 5:18 AM
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