"The article, written by Mark Bentley, added that, "builder Kerem Emre used stones from the demolished church in the province of Diyarbekir to lay the foundations for a mosque" in its place."

Sounds a lot like what happened in India to all the Hindu temples. Ah yes, Islam so peaceful, so tolerant.

Posted by: Gorkhali at October 21, 2005 7:07 AM

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=75779

Arinc: We Have Always Felt US Contribution To Turkey's EU Process

Turkish Parliament Speaker Bulent Arinc has said, ``we have always felt contributions of the United States to Turkey`s EU process.``

Arinc hosted dinner in honor of Brent Scowcroft, chairman of the Board of the American-Turkish Council (ATC), and accompanying delegation in Ankara on Thursday.

Arinc said, ``Turkey has always believed the importance of Turkey-United States relations which have roots deep in history. We want these relations to continue similarly.``

``We have acted jointly with the United Stated regarding important issues which concern world peace. We never forget U.S. contribution to Turkey`s development and economic improvement. We have always felt the contribution of the United States to Turkey`s EU process as well. We believe this support will continue during negotiation process,`` he added.

Posted by: Fjordman at October 21, 2005 7:15 AM

"Brent Scowcroft, chairman of the Board of the American-Turkish Council (ATC), "
-- from a posting above

Well, of course. It makes sense. Hard-on-Israel ergo soft-on-Islam Brent Scowcroft. The chocolate soldier who rose through the ranks, like the Gilbert-and-Sullivan admiral who polished up the handle of the big front door, and became a captain in the Queen's navee, Scowcroft has a lifetime of polishing, apple-polishing for his civilian superiors.

And here is Turkey, the country that wishes to enter the E.U. And here is the government of the United States, which has been pushing for Turkey's admission to the E.U., which is a clear sign to all those who think that this Administration "secretly" understands Islam and is "just playing a clever game" (which includes all those who so tiresomely keep defending the wonderful Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations Project in Iraq), feting Scowcroft, who is getting how much from the Turkish government, directly or indirectly, for his new post, one no doubt among many?

And who cares if the E.U. has as its largest member Turkey, so that all Turks can, by the rules of the E.U., move freely anywhere within that same E.U., and set up doner kebab shops, and mosques, and swell the ranks still further of those ever-swelling ranks of Muslims who, almost without exception, have everywhere they have settled within Europe made life more unpleasant, more expensive, and more physically insecure for the indigenous Infidels (and for other non-Muslim immigrant groups who, unlike the Muslims, settle in Europe without making life more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous for everyone else)? Brent Scowcroft doesn't. From desk-job after desk-job, he rose high. And now he lives the life of comfort, paid for by those who do not so much wish Turkey and Erdogan well, but those, and there are so many of them, who simply want the money, whether from Turkey pushing in its own way at the Gates of Vienna, or Saudi Arabia trying to prevent any understanding of what Saudi Arabia is and does and always will be and always will do.

He's a type. Brent Scowcroft. He has nothing to do with the officers and men who were in Iraq, and some of whom are paying with their lives for the decades of misunderstanding of Islam that these well-heeled denizens of official Washington receive in order, in a thousand ways, to misinform and misdirect the government, the media, and us.

Posted by: Hugh at October 21, 2005 8:25 AM

Here are the three things that must be required of Turkey before negotiations can be continued:

1. Formal recognition of the mass-murder of Armenians in 1894-96, and the mass-murder, amounting to genocide as that term is often applied, in the period 1915-1920.

2. Removing the green flag of Islam from Hagia Sophia, allowing Western (and Turkish) artisans to restore, as much as possible, the building, and permitting the holding, in Hagia Sophia, of church services so that, as a working church, Western and Turkish visitors, both among the permanent residents and tourists, can participate in, or observe, what was the first church in what for a thousand years was the most largest and most important city in all of Eastern Christendom and, for much of that time, the most important city in Christendom, period.

3. Withdrawing from the "Islamic club" of the O.I.C. For while the charge that the E.U. is a "Christian club" is nonsense, but the O.I.C. is, definitely, based entirely on Islam as the unifying and animating force. Turkey cannot expect as a member of such an "Islamic club" -- see the speech of Mahathir Mohamed to the assembled worthies of the O.I.C. to get a sense of what goes on at these meetings -- to be admitted into the E.U.

These are not demands to be met AFTER admission. They are not demands to be met in a few years. They are the sine qua non, the initial and minimal requirements, that must be met.

They can't? Turkey just can't own up to its treatment of the Armenians (not to mention its massacres of Maronites and Assyrians and others, not to mention the mob violence against Greeks in 1955, not to mention the devshirme, not to mention the...). Too bad.

Turkey simply can't can't can't open up the Hagia Sophia and allow it to be used again as a church, though there are mosques in every major and minor city in Europe and North America? Why not?

Turkey can't leave that aggressive and menacing O.I.C. (see that Mahathir Mohamed speech, and the ecstatic reception it received)?

No?

Too bad. We have been told in the E.U. repeatedly that Turkey is not like those other Muslim countries. Turkey, we are told, is a "secular" state, Turkey is a "modern" state, Turkey is a state that does everything it can to be a multi-ethinc, multi-religious state.

Really?

Three easy ways to begin to prove it.

If even those three steps cannot be taken, then there is no point in further discussions. And it will be hard to make the case that any of these requests were unreasonable -- at least in the rest of the non-Islamic world.

You remember that business on television a few years ago, declaring someone the weakest link, and wishing him (or her) an abrupt goodbye?

Well, goodbye.

Posted by: Hugh at October 21, 2005 8:39 AM

Hugh,

Perhaps also they could apologize for the centuries of suffering they caused non-Muslims under the Ottoman Empire in Eastern Europe and Greece. After all these countries will be their EU partners.

Posted by: Elephant at October 21, 2005 9:04 AM

Elephant --

Yes. Those were only the preliminary and obvious three.

The next set of three would include: open admission of, and discussion about, the Devshirme (what Bernard Lewis claims was "recruitment" that was the envy of Muslim parents), discussion of attempts to suppress the Greeks in their War for independence, massacres of Christians during the Bulgarian Wars (see Gladstone's speech). That's the second set of three.

The third set will focus on Serbia.

Don't worry. There's time to offer it all up -- point by grim point.

Not only elephants -- I'm sure, Elephant, you haven't forgotten -- -- never forget.

Posted by: Hugh at October 21, 2005 9:22 AM

They make always the same, in VIII century, in Cordova(Spain), they demolished the cathedral and with their stones, they build the mosque, this is one of the reasons, that the cathedral of Cordoba, former mosque must be cathedral like the Vatican and common sense say.
Poor armenians, like forever a martyr people.

Posted by: Franze at October 21, 2005 10:31 AM

The building was very old and Hurricane Katrina did it much damage. The concerned local Mosque officials called in a remodeler to shore up and repair this house of disrespect. As the crew arrived the building suddenly and mysteriously collapsed. This was the will of Allah (PBR Upon Him). It will now be rebuilt to closely resemble a Mosque. God is Grand.

Posted by: KingTesticle at October 21, 2005 10:43 AM

Well, so what I hear the Tirks saying is "Say there was no Armenian Genocide, or we'll kill you!"

Posted by: Jsingleton at October 21, 2005 12:43 PM

Clearly, Turkey is not a secular state. Erdogan is no secular leader of Turkey. He is not a moderate Muslim. But I am a little amazed that Erdogan and the Turkish government allowed for the demolition of an ancient Armenian Church. This kind of action shouldn't win much praise in the Christian West. The Turkish government should have enough common sense and know better than to allow this kind action and still believe that they will be admitted into the European Union.

Do the Turks really think that the European Union will turn a blind eye and show no concern about the Turkish governement's favoritism towards Islam and lack of acceptance towards the other faith in Turkey, namely Christianity (the older faith). I thought that Turkey is being asked to reform their laws and allow for more tolerance and acceptance towards Christianity.

On the other hand, I may be somewhat naive in hoping that European Union will hold the Turkish government accountable for this destructive action towards Christianity. Sadly, the European Union doesn't have much spine when it comes to protecting Christians or Christianity from the destructive forces of Islam. And they shamefully do very little to work together in condemning Islamic countries who are intolerant towards Christians There is not much Christinity within the European Union. Secularism has stolen the show.

Hugh: You made some very good points. The Hagia Sophia must be allowed to be a place of Christian worship in Turkey. To allow for the "museum" to become a church again would send a very clear message to the Christian West that Turkey is not against Christianity. It is true that the Hagia Sophia was once the crown jewel of Byzantine Christianity before it was stolen by the Muslims and converted into a Mosque. Christians have every right to get back what is owed to them.

The Pope has written prophetically about the importance of reciprocity between Christianity and Islam. It is unacceptable that Muslims are allowed to settle in the Christian West and are permitted to firmly establish their mosques and Islamic culture while the Middle East doesn't allow for the same kind of reciprocity and acceptance of Christians into their lands.

I have a recommendation to the leaders of the European Union: " Carry out the wishes of the Pope and hold the Middle East accountable for their intolerance towards Christianity! You can begin by first condemning the actions of the Turkish government in permitting the destruction of the ancient Armenian Church in Dikranagerd. You should also ask the Turkish government to give back to Christianity what is rightly theirs: the Hagia Sophia."

Posted by: Johnathan at October 21, 2005 1:09 PM

They do seem to be jumping the gun a bit, shouldn't they wait until they get their membership? Oh wait, our press doesn't bother to report this kind of thing:

Istanbul - Back in June, Turks did a double-take when Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan began his monthly television address. Rather than speak before the traditional backdrop of the Turkish flag and a portrait of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of the republic, Erdogan spoke before photos of Ataturk's mausoleum and a mosque. The message, Turks said, was clear. Ataturk was dead, but Islam lives on.

-snip-

Worrying signs abound in Istanbul, where East and West have long blended in harmony. While the Saudi-style (as opposed to Turkish-style) veil was once limited to outlying districts like Sultanbeyli, it is becoming increasingly common in the center of Istanbul. While secular society accepts the veil in the name of diversity, such tolerance is one-way. Turkish women say residents of more conservative districts make them feel unwelcome if they do not likewise adopt conservative Arab styles of dress.

In the past year, the AKP has begun to translate its near monopoly over most major municipalities and national government into action. Rule-of-law has been a casualty. On January 7, 2005, bulldozers and dozens of policemen showed up outside Chocolate, a trendy café adjacent to the Besiktas soccer stadium. After a Besiktas match, men and women, sons and daughters, would cross the street and relax, have a coffee or beer, and watch the boats go by on the Bosphorous. On that rainy day, the police arrived with bulldozers and told the shocked staff the municipality - run by AKP - had ordered the restaurant destroyed. Television cameras and the property owners videotaped the subsequent confrontation. The landlord's lawyer demanded to know on what grounds the municipality would demolish the restaurant. He produced the requisite permits and demanded to see a court order. "I don't know anything about a court order. And I don't want to see your permits," the AKP official said. "I have a job to do." Minutes later, bulldozers drove through the glass atriums of the restaurant in front of shocked onlookers. The AKP did not even switch off the restaurant's gas before the demolition. Vendetta trumped safety. Three other restaurants fell victim to the AKP's bulldozers on the same day. The video shows waiters and cooks weeping. No restaurants meant no jobs in Turkey's already tight job market. Had they worked at a more Islamic establishment, they need not have worried.

The January demolitions were not alone. On October 14, 2005, AKP officials demolished part of Reina, a restaurant and nightclub complex on the Bosphorous popular among affluent and Western-oriented elites. Again, the government operated without a court order. The AKP-led municipality has especially targeted Istanbul districts led by other political parties. Demolitions have occurred in SiSli, Bakırkoy, and Kadikoy.

Large firms deemed un-Islamic or pro-Western by the ruling party's advisors have also been subject to arbitrary taxation and penalty unsupported by any financial regulation or audit. The government has targeted beer manufacturer Efes and the local Coca-Cola bottler, while promoting products manufactured by companies deemed Islamist. Turkish Airlines once served Coca-Cola on its flights. According to flight attendants, at the request of the government, it increasingly substitutes Cola Turka, a brand owned by Ülker, a confectionary company long associated with Islamist causes.

http://www.meforum.org/article/778

Posted by: Silvester at October 21, 2005 1:58 PM

Does anybody have a reference to Andalusian Muslims using the skulls of decapitated Christians for the building of mosques?

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 21, 2005 2:22 PM

I have heard of such a Church in Spain but haven't any links. V.S. Naipul visited a Sufi shrine that was built of crushed human bone in one of this "Among the Believers" books. And then there's The Tower of Nis:

http://www.nis.org.yu/istorija/history/bojnacegru1e.html

An arch that was built by the Ottomans from the skulls of killed Serbs.

Posted by: Suzan at October 21, 2005 2:55 PM

A close up of Skull Tower,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Tower

Posted by: Carolyn2 at October 21, 2005 6:10 PM

It is interesting that Erdogan's government in Turkey is creating a more fundamentalist Islamist government in Turkey while the western media talks incessantly about how secular and "modern" Turkey should join the "Christian club" of the European Union. The forces within the western media are completely of touch with what is really going on with Christians and western influences in Muslim countries.

I am willing to bet that that this story about an ancient Armenian church being destroyed by Muslims received no coverage from the western media. Unfortunately, the interests and priorities when in the western media circulates around stories that won't create a controversy, especially a religious one. The western media is fickle and knows that most people would rather hear about about self absorbed celebrities and sports stars than hear about what is really happening to Christians living in Muslim lands.

Posted by: Johnathan at October 21, 2005 11:27 PM