"Geert Wilders is a rightist member of the Dutch Parliament living in a secret location under police protection because Islamic radicals say they will kill him."

Is this not the very essence of Islam? Is it not reason enough to deport all Moslems back to their home countries?

Posted by: Shaughn at October 23, 2005 4:05 PM

I think Hugh hit it on the head in another thread. What he wrote is that essentially we have to make the West non-Islam friendly.

That means immigration restrictions that are essentially discriminatory (though I feel we can use certain criteria to diminish the overtness of such a policy), mass expulsion of illegals (muslim or not), and passing laws that force fundamentalism underground.

If women are denied the Burkha in Denmark, if schoolgirls are denied the headscarf in France, if Mosque construction becomes more difficult through zoning regulations, if religious profiling becomes the norm, if security sweeps in Muslim neighborhoods nets increasing numbers of illegal immigrants, if there are welfare and retroactive immigration reforms that make it harder for Muslim immigrants to find the good life in the West...all this together might result not only in a dramatic decrease in Muslim immigration, but even facilitate Muslim emigration.

The political equation is clearly delineated: The Western Left is (wittingly or not) the proponent of civilizational suicide; the Center-Right is increasingly postulating civilizational self-defense.

Posted by: Cornelius at October 23, 2005 4:25 PM

Islam is not "of Europe". Never has been, never will be. End of story.

Posted by: Fjordman at October 23, 2005 4:26 PM

Geert Wilders is often dismissed as a "racist" and a crank. (I don't think he is.)

If Leftists (the principal label-wielders of "racist" and "Islamophobe" and "fascist") don't get with the program soon, it will be their fault if "racists" -- real ones, not just imagined -- take the reins of the problem of Islam.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 23, 2005 4:40 PM

Fjordman,

When are the Viking hoards going to defend Valhalla? You herring loving wimps are too busy singing Kumbaya ;-)

+++++++++++++++++

"England expects that every man will do his duty" Lord Nelson

"Not bloody likely" Tony Blair

Posted by: 1630r at October 23, 2005 4:41 PM

How to counter this sickness in the West? The Muslim parasite is taking full advantage of our cultural weakness -- our complete horror at the thought be appearing chauvenistic, or arrogant, horror at the thought that we might appear as if our culture is superior to that of the infidels we are allowing to immigrate into our fold...!

Even here among readers of DW/JW there are allegations by knowledgeable people that what we need more of is tolerance and understanding -- that somehow if we just understand more about the Muslims, then we will magically have them reflect that peace love and understanding back in our direction. This is just MAGICAL THINKING!

For God's sake, we don't even agree here whether or not we're at war -- and if we are, we can't even agree against whom we should be fighting. Many here are still confused, and imagine that we are part of the problem -- not the victim of an ongoing slow motion attack to annihilate our existence... The revulsion of Westerners to be associated in any way with harshness is very touching indeed, and a magnificent testimony to our efforts to lift ourselves out of the muck of 100,000 years of fighting, hatred, murder, and mayem... But I ask:

ARE WE AT WAR, or AREN'T WE????

I am convinced that our soft fluffy sentiments about decency, and prosecuting soldiers who burn dead terrorist would have condemned us to complete failure and utter oblivion in WW2! Our fights against the Nazis and the Imperialist Japanese would have NEVER survived the impossible demands we are placing on our military. The paroxysms of self flaggelation and habitualistic 'let's understand it from the other guys perspecitve' would have been a FATAL approach to winning a REAL WAR against the likes of the Nazis -- But we are now confronted, not by some new-fangled 2 or 3 decades old foe who grew out of the most recent internecine European or Asian imperial conflicts...

We are being attacked, infiltrated, undermined, demoralized, and betrayed by a 1400 year old ideology of victimhood, revenge, hatred, and hegemony -- And righteous empires have fallen to this beast before, and never recovered from the onslaught -- Byzantium -Coptic Egypt -- Christian Assyria, Jewish/Christian Babylon, Christian Levant, Zoroastrian Persia, Hindu India -- Great Empires ALL -- utterly crushed and annihilated and ground into sewage and filth and privation -- cesspools of frothing hatred, disease, perversion, death ---

Destroyed by Islam -- throttled in their sleep -- unable to wake from the nightmare of Allah's prophet and the filth which he unloosed upon the world...

Posted by: jsla at October 23, 2005 4:46 PM

Here is a book review of the recently published OUT OF RUINS, A NEW IDENTITY, a post WWII history of Europe. The following excerpt reveals the leftist penchant for maintaining equivalency and even welcoming of the competing ideology to that of the ambient ideology, even after abandonment by the core adherents of the competing ideology.

The death of Stalin in March 1953 prompted hopes that the Soviet Union could be reformed, because there was plenty of evidence that the so-called dictatorship of the proletariat was an imperial project of an authoritarian state. Nevertheless, many Western leftists continued to believe in the communist movement long after those living within the socialist experiment had given up on it.

We see the parallel today in European (and other Western) leftist today. There is nothing wrong at all in challenging the assumptions and practices of the one's own ideolgy and culture, indeed, it can only strengthen it, allowing it to progress thereby preventing its very stagnation. It is only when the leftist reject their own ideology and culture in favor of the other, which although exhibited as failed must be maintained and even introduced as the way of progress.

Modern Europe needs to find itself and what it stands for.

Posted by: Lisa at October 23, 2005 5:00 PM

"Un loosed" -- i got a little florid there -- combination of "unleashed" and "loosed..." should have read "loosed"

Posted by: jsla at October 23, 2005 5:09 PM

Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics

Concerns over Islamic extremism, extensive in the West even before this month's terrorist attacks in London, are shared to a considerable degree by the publics in several predominantly Muslim nations surveyed. Nearly three-quarters of Moroccans and roughly half of those in Pakistan, Turkey and Indonesia see Islamic extremism as a threat to their countries. At the same time, most Muslim publics are expressing less support for terrorism than in the past. Confidence in Osama bin Laden has declined markedly in some countries and fewer believe suicide bombings that target civilians are justified in the defense of Islam.

Nonetheless, the polling also finds that while Muslim and non-Muslim publics share some common concerns, they have very different attitudes regarding the impact of Islam on their countries. Muslim publics worry about Islamic extremism, but the balance of opinion in predominantly Muslim countries is that Islam is playing a greater role in politics – and most welcome that development. Turkey is a clear exception; the public there is divided about whether a greater role for Islam in the political life of that country is desirable.

In non-Muslim countries, fears of Islamic extremism are closely associated with worries about Muslim minorities. Western publics believe that Muslims in their countries want to remain distinct from society, rather than adopt their nation's customs and way of life. Moreover, there is a widespread perception in countries with significant Muslim minorities, including the U.S., that resident Muslims have a strong and growing sense of Islamic identity. For the most part, this development is viewed negatively, particularly in Western Europe. In France, Germany and the Netherlands, those who see a growing sense of Islamic identity among resident Muslims overwhelmingly say this is a bad thing.

Posted by: Lisa at October 23, 2005 5:11 PM

Some interesting statistics in this Table.

Posted by: Lisa at October 23, 2005 5:23 PM

A new type of immigration is now underway in the Netherlands. Over the centuries, the Dutch earned the reputation for being a tolerant country towards other Christian denominations and Jewish immigrants. Today, the Dutch are now facing in their own cities and towns a swelling Muslim population that seeks to overturn the Judeo-Christian traditions of the country.

Massive Asian immigration of Muslims into the Netherlands is unprecdented. It is well known today that the majority of Asian Muslims in the Netherlands are refusing to embrace Western standards, contrary to the Jews of the past, who lived at peace alongside the Christian Dutch.

Asian Muslims are feriously resisting Western standards in the Netherlands because they view the West to be decadent, inferior, and opposed to the Islamic society from which they came. They are also seeking to replace Dutch culture with Middle Eastern traditions, most of which stem from Islam.

The Jewish immigrants who sought haven in the Netherlands never presented a threat to the Judeo-Christian heritage of the Dutch people. Today, Asian Muslims in Netherlands are posing an imminent threat to Dutch society because they are having many more children than the secular Dutch who practice birth control and are uninterested in having large families.

The Dutch will have to decide if maintaining a generous welfare state that provides many incentives for Muslims to live in their midst is the best approach for Dutch society. They may also be faced with having to restrict the number of Asian Muslim immigrants into their country per year and deport the Islamists who pose the greatest risk.

Posted by: Johnathan at October 23, 2005 5:41 PM

AS long as America and Israel are used as scapegoats in Muslim countries, and as long as "more Islam" is put forward as the solution to the woes of Muslims in Muslim lands, we will not see the end of the cycle in Lisa's excellent posting above.

The delusional disconnect among Muslims between their stifling regressive religion and their deplorable living conditions is one of the worst delusions afflicting ALL of humanity -- Unfortunately, Islam has brilliantly rigged it so that any message coming from without (whether it is delivered politely or rudely) which suggest that ISLAM itself is at fault for the Muslim predicament is met with the ready made and deeply inculcated kneejerk reactionary response "Aha! an "infidel" attack on Islam... I must defend Islam against this attack..."

This is also true when, with the gentle patience of Job, some poor brave Muslim soul hints at the notion that this or that might be revised -- or attempts to analyze the peurile infantile life of the prophet --
Literally the reaction from the pious Muslim masses is "Chop off his head! " since such criticism is first and formost UTTERLY forbidden..

So here we have a 'catch 22' for the centuries -- What to do about a culture and a "religion" which has made itself so utterly immune to reform and self reflection, which thrives on covering its tracks by blaming all of its shortcomings on the outsider, and proposes only more of the flawed system as the only permissable fix to the problems which it itself has caused...? What to do about a system which has so effectively propagandised its adherents, and many others as well, and so successfully concealed and deflected attention away from its omnipresent inferiority regarding spirituality, jurisprudence, technological innovation, governance, and human decency? What to do when this sytem is so rigged to explode at the slightest touch or hint that it must reform...?

Islam is a thought-system which is set to explode in our face NO MATTER WHAT WE DO TO TRY AND DIFFUSE IT -- What to do with such a cultural bomb? What's the proper thing to do with something that when told to reform becomes a more virulent form of itself? What to do with a global culture which is rigged to explode and destroy us if we attempt to tamper with it kindly or otherwise? What to do with an entrenched ideology which kills anyone from within its ideology if they even begin to think that it must begin to change, soften itself, modify itself.

Islam is built to withstand these forces, and only become more vicious the more one tries to make it less vicious... It is the perfect killing machine -- the Michael Myers of religions -- You can't kill it -- you can only run in despair and hope it won't get you!

Posted by: jsla at October 23, 2005 5:47 PM

Our response needs to be multi-pronged.

1. Deportation of who we "deem" to be radical. This puts the fear of God in muslim clerics, as they do not know who is next.

2. A virtual ban on muslim immigration till the duration of the war.

3. Another facet of the response should ban the public manifestation of religion. The West is secular, and religious sentiment in the public square is offensive to us, as well as a violation of the separation of religion and politics.

4. The issue of the enslavement of muslim women is anathema to any Western society. Its open public manifestation is an offense to all that we stand for. Moreover, it should be illegal, as it defeats the purpose of security cameras. This has to be done with compassion for the victims, with compassion being the main criteria.

5. Ban the electronically amplified call to prayer from mosques, as it is clearly derogatory to other faiths, as well an invasion of the public square.

Oh yes, I think one should add muslim mob violence and riot as another arm of the Jihad. It is very effective in terrifying non-muslims, as well as encouraging politicians to accede to muslim demands.

Lisa:

Israel in not on the table. That would have been interesting.

Posted by: DP111 at October 23, 2005 6:02 PM

jsla poted :as long as "more Islam" is put forward as the solution to the woes of Muslims in Muslim lands, we will not see the end of the cycle in Lisa's excellent posting above.

Britain and the US though believe that more muslims in Europe (Turkey in EU), will lessen the threat of islamic terrorism. That is, in their scheme, more muslims means less terrorism.

Their is logic to this madness. Once Europe is islamic, islamic terrorism against infidels will cease. True.

Posted by: DP111 at October 23, 2005 6:09 PM

"f Leftists (the principal label-wielders of "racist" and "Islamophobe" and "fascist") don't get with the program soon, it will be their fault if "racists" -- real ones, not just imagined -- take the reins of the problem of Islam.
Posted by: Dr. Pepper"

Take off your ideological blinders, and get up to date. This Wilder is the first Rightwinger (outside of the BNP and Le Pen) who has spoken out against Islam.

In fact to date the hero's, who have died and stuck their necks out to expose or criticize Islam have been Lefties.

Pym Fortunyn... leftist, homosexual
Oriana Fallaci... a former communist, self described Christian Atheist.
Ayann Hirsi Ali...leftist, atheist.
Van Gogh...leftists
and might I suggest that Al Sina and Ibn Warraq, whom are ATHEISTS (not Christian converts) are also a tad leftist.

This left v right crap is yesterday's news and so long as twerps and maroons continue it, it will be out downfall.

And trust me I criticize the self described leftists (where they don't ban me anyway) for the same kind of rhetoric and stinking thinking. Just damn few, if any vocal leftists on this forum, of course not, they get shouted down, and are the subject of ad hominems.

Make up your mind which war you want to fight, because if you insist on fighting an internal culture war you will lose the external culture war, in the long run lose the internal culture war to the demographics of head bangers.

Posted by: Nariz at October 23, 2005 9:13 PM

What Holland needs is a cross-dressing/ transsexual Scientologist / Raeilian to run for public office on an anti-islamic immigration platform. Maybe then the media can get off the "rightist" labeling of anyone who opposes islamic immigration.

Posted by: 3812Michelle at October 23, 2005 9:16 PM

"What Holland needs is a cross-dressing/ transsexual Scientologist / Raeilian to run for public office on an anti-islamic immigration platform. Maybe then the media can get off the "rightist" labeling of anyone who opposes islamic immigration." Posted by: 3812Michelle

Holland already had that, more or less, in Pym Fortuyn (among other things, a flamboyantly gay man who bragged about sleeping with numerous young black men). And he was assassinated by a Leftist animal rights maniac who publicly stated he did it to protect the Muslims.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 23, 2005 9:56 PM

Pym Fortunyn... leftist, homosexual (a FORMER Marxist)

Oriana Fallaci... a former communist, self described Christian Atheist. (Now considered to be a RIGHTIST. She is pro-American, pro-Western and supported the Iraq war.)

Ayann Hirsi Ali...leftist, atheist. (A FORMER leftist, now a member of Holland's right-of-center party.)

Van Gogh...leftists (Hard to categorize his political opinions.)

and might I suggest that Al Sina (he is pro-capitalist and supported the Iraq war.)

and Ibn Warraq, whom are ATHEISTS (not Christian converts) are also a tad leftist (Ibn Warraq hates communism and in fact, compared it with Islam in Why I am Not a Muslim.)

Quit telling porkies, Nariz. I am an atheist but I'm also pro-capitalist and pro-individual rights (not for "group rights" as pushed so disastrously by the Left all these years under the guise of "multi-culturalism"). I've been fighting the counter-jihad for many, many years, long before 9-11. I'm sure you'd sneer at me as a "rightwinger" too.

There are plenty of "rightwingers" in the UK for instance who are just as vocal as Geert Wilders -- and been doing it longer too. Melanie Phillips is one. The "right-wing" Telegraph, the Times and the Spectator all publish far braver and more critical stuff about Islam than anything that appears in the (left-wing) Guardian, Independent or BBC.

YOU are the one who is pushing the right-left divide, not anyone else here. Just face it. YOU keep insisting inaccurately that people like Ali Sina and Oriana Fallacci are "on the left" because you can't face the fact that most of your buddies on the left have climbed into bed with these jihadi psychopaths.

Posted by: Suzan at October 23, 2005 10:07 PM

Suzan is right, and Robert Spencer is incorrect (or has repeatedly worded his opinion incorrectly).

Suzan is right: This is patently a Left-Right issue, since far more people on the Right are waking up to the problem of Islam, and the Left is being left behind.

Spencer is incorrect when he repeatedly says: This isn't a Left-Right issue. More correctly, it should be stated that this shouldn't be a Left-Right issue.

But it most obviously is.

And it has been for years.

As Suzan says, it's the majority of the Left's fault for pushing it this way. Just as Muslims push the Muslim/Infidel divide, so the majority of Leftists are pushing the Left/Right divide where there needn't -- and shouldn't -- be one.

In so pushing, the majority of Leftists create the virtual reality of a Left/Right divide: and as we know, virtual reality has consequences.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 23, 2005 10:38 PM

YOU are the one who is pushing the right-left divide, not anyone else here. Just face it. YOU keep insisting inaccurately that people like Ali Sina and Oriana Fallacci are "on the left" because you can't face the fact that most of your buddies on the left have climbed into bed with these jihadi psychopaths.

Posted by: Suzan at October 23, 2005 10:07 PM

You are exactly right Suzan; the bleeding-heart, liberal apologists for Islam allowed it to establish a foothold and they remain the most outspoken advocates for Islam and muslims. I'll be the first to agree that this should not be a left/right issue because Islam threatens us all. Giaour, AKA Nariz, is one of the few Marxists to see the light, but convincing his comrades to reconsider their maniacal quest for diversity and multiculturalism at any cost is easier said than done.

The left-wing's all-consuming agenda to enforce political correctness and establish universal multiculturalism and moral relativity is motivated by its hatred of Western Civilization, which was vastly influenced by Christianity and Judaism. They believe that Christianity is the root of all evil and their Rotweillers at the ACLU are doing all they can to neutralize it. What better way to weaken the influence of Christianity and dismantle wicked Western Civilization than by promoting Islam and its beautiful, non-Western culture. Do they realize how insane their plan is? Obviously not.

Sadly, the disease of political correctness has spread to Conservatives who are now terrified to speak out in fear of being called racists, xenophobes, or Islamophobes. Although the muslim vote in America is still miniscule except in certain areas where muslims have converged, our illustrious members of Congress are more concerned about votes than representation.

Our "conservative" president is a sham and an idiot. I have never been so disappointed in someone I helped elect. But since Kerry would have been even worse, I had no choice. I actually liked GWB for about a year after 9-11, until he came up with the "NCLB" debacle, followed by the Medicare prescription drug fiasco. I initially supported the war but I never dreamed it would lead to the mess we're in now.

Maybe Karl Rove will go to jail and Bush will appoint a more moderate advisor to run the country.

Posted by: Susanp at October 23, 2005 11:08 PM

"Giaour, AKA Nariz, is one of the few Marxists to see the light, but convincing his comrades to reconsider their maniacal quest for diversity and multiculturalism at any cost is easier said than done."

It would be impossible for Nariz to convince his comrades of this -- because in his mind, they apparently don't need convincing and are already on our side.

Speaking of the Marxist/Islamic nexus, one of the leaders of the Filipino Communist party, who is in a Dutch prison, said a couple of years ago that he wished to express his solidarity with the Muslim rebels in the south Philippines. (Then there's the infamous Carlos the Jackal, a sort of nihilist/anarchist/Marxist, who has recently converted to Islam and has written a book about how Islam is the best vehicle for the world "people's" revolution.)

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 24, 2005 12:10 AM

That was a pretty good article. I'm glad to see the ante being upped on what is permissible discourse on Islam in Western MSM.

Pity it had to contain a howler like: "That Europe needs immigrants...is evident."

Oh please. It is *debatable* - not *evident* - whether Europe, the US, Australia, or anywhere, *needs* immigration (Muslim or otherwise). It is *far* from clear - indeed, much evidence suggests otherwise - whether immigration is an economic benefit to the receiving society. (And if it' s not an economic benefit, then we must question quite seriously whether it's any benefit at all.)

And aren't the "solutions" to Islamic immigration that modern politicos are proposing so delightfully daft? Upping the age for marriage immigration. Oh, that's going to be a huge help that one. Requiring immigrants to learn "Dutch society and values". As if they won't just "learn the right answers", collect the necessary stamps and then simply continue on their merry way. All this muddling about simply because we refuse to look the problem of Islam squarely in the eye - all for the mortal fear of "offending" someone.

The article touches on what that mortal fear stems from: fear of another Holocaust. You can't criticize Islam because before you know it we'll be rounding up Muslims and sending them to extermination camps. The complete collapse of reason and logic whenever there's a whiff of "hate" in the air is mind-boggling.

Posted by: spect8or at October 24, 2005 12:47 AM

This is not a Left or Right issue, this is the survival of the Christian/Secular western democracies. Islam is the curse of the 21st century and Europe in only now waking up to this enemy within. Its time everyone takes a good look at what is happening in their own countries with the influx of these Muslim parasites and take remedial measures, to curtail their activities and demand of their elected representatives; to stop all Muslim immigration and to start deporting all Islamic trouble makers or incarcerating the others (who are now citizens) for any acts that are considered detrimental to the country. Its time everyone wakes up from their slumber and take what ever action that is necessary to ward of this evil.

Posted by: faqi at October 24, 2005 5:03 AM

Suzan / SusanP

I agree with you both.

Nariz promotes the "left / right" divide in every one of his / her postings.

I have left a few responses for him / her on recent threads where he / she, has termed my posts "bile".

I hope to catch up with him / her on a live thread to correct him / her on one or two things. Maybe this one.

Best regards
Albion

Posted by: albion at October 24, 2005 7:10 AM

Nariz posted (Muslim Stabbed Nun Thread):

"All one need to be is a concerned (about Islam) liberal and visit the hate and bile spewed by Gary, Susanp, kepha and albion etc towards LIBERALS and it is enough for a person to turn around and revisit their assumptions and opinions."

As you do not live in England & do not suffer the damage to your country, heritage & culture that the English have suffered because of LIBERAL sensibilities & policies since 1960 I make no excuse for daring to call a spade a spade.

This is my country & I will call it as I see it - much to the International Left Wings annoyance at hearing the truth about their complicity & naivety & treason with regards to Islam in my country.

Yes, treason.

As much as you detest my opinions, they are based on my experiences living as an Englishman in England.

The days when the English are dumbed down by Liberals shouting "Bigot" Racist" Fascist" for expressing the truth as they see it are rapidly coming to an end.

Fighting Jihad isn't a Left Wing / Right Wing thing?

Don't be so naive - everything political in the Western World is covered & affected by which side of the political fence you stand, & in my experience its only the Liberal Left Wing that pretend otherwise.

Now KT, where are those links?

Posted by: albion at October 24, 2005 06:40 AM

Posted by: albion at October 24, 2005 8:55 AM

The Left has been fighting the Jihadists? I've heard some bad jokes before, but that is the worst one I've ever heard. For every one of the names mentioned above, there is a Michael Moore, Ward Churchill, and Cindy Sheehan, all pro-Jihadist leftists. Then there are the judges who rule to ban even the word Christmas from public use, yet also rule that students can be forced to take part in Muslim activities. Also there are the numerous idiotic statements made by professors, politicians and other Leftists. It is also the Left that keeps coming up with all the conspiracy theories about 9/11. The Left and the Jihadists are allies the same way that The Nazis and the Japanese were allies in WW2. It doesn't make much sense, the Japanese were not Arayan, and the Germans were gaijin, yet they were allies. Just as the Left are secular infidels, and Muslims are religious, yet they are allies. This is not to say that there aren't anti-Jihadist Leftists, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Posted by: Balrog at October 24, 2005 10:49 AM

Albion ~

Right on the money. The hard Left harbors a great contempt for Western Civilization. They naturally shiver with glee as it comes under violent and assault and faces subversion. This is not to say that your average Democrat or Labourite wishes for the death of America or Britain--but the philophy of the Left, upon which both parties ultimately draw, must always be suspect.

The Left wanted us to lose the Cold War, plain and simple. It's now fashionable to say--as became plain at the Reagan funeral--that "we were all in it together against the Soviets." Bull. And to this point, in the fight against the Jihad, the Left shows no signs of taking of the the velvet gloves and getting in on the action. When the Left throws out platitudes to hamper our efforts at civilizational self defense--diversity, tolerance, tiny-minority, multi-culti--we have to call them on it.

Fortunately, in this particular fight, we have a voice, no matter how much the New York Times dislikes the fact.

Sincerely,

Mad Jack

Posted by: Mad_Jack at October 24, 2005 11:22 AM

Look folks, re: Nariz. There are people on the centre/left, and even the further left, who are not suckers for Islamism. We're a minority to be sure, but we exist and include some noteworthys including Christopher Hitchens (the "former Trotskyite drink-sodden popinjay" and arch nemisis of George Al-Galawi) and Phylis Chesler. There were other "celeb" Democrats who openly said they planned to vote for Bush because they said Islamic terrorism was issue #1 and they had no faith in Kerry.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at October 24, 2005 11:31 AM

Waterdragon, if I may add: Those people on the center/left, more than likely represent the Original meaning of liberalism- not the version being pushed on us today. They get it, because they see just how the islamists can and Will (try to) take back all the hard-won advances we have made.

Posted by: Gary at October 24, 2005 12:00 PM

Re: the original meaning of Liberalism: A Franklin Delano Roosevelt or a John F. Kennedy would have come to grips with the problem of Islam one year after 911 -- and not be floundering still as Bush is.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 24, 2005 12:58 PM

albion: "Now KT, where are those links?"

King: I was so hoping that you'd resume this because I'm going to hoist you with your own petard...

Being that your 'dhimmi watching' and 'jihad watching' skills are so 'finely honed', you ought to be an excellent resource to find suspected "pro-Jihadi" websites.

You go out and find the websites you think I should be posting on, post them here for me, and I shall then follow through and post on them and put the links here for everyone to see. This will not only make an excellent use of your otherwise idle skills, it will allow you and I to work together for one common cause. The only rules are pretty obvious: must be in English, must be public, and must clearly advocate the use of Islam as a tool of violence. I'd be more than happy to voice my opinions against such actions.

Post the links. Today.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 24, 2005 1:00 PM

This thread is extremely interesting -- I think I'm seeing further evidence of the rift in Western society which 9/11 helped to cleave...

Is this really a discussion about "leftism" or pseudo-leftism?

One of the posters above points out the truly "daft" solutions being put forward by EU leaders to "deal" with their menacing lack of Muslim assimilation... Not mentioned is the wonderfully classist "solution" put forward in Socialist Holland to subject all native born Dutch with less than an 8th grade educations to YEARS of "multicultural" Islamic indoctrination -- AS IF THE NATIVE BORN UNDERCLASS IN HOLLAND IS CAUSING THE PROBLEMS AMONG THE MUSLIMS... This is such utter insanity that one's mouth is left agape -- it's difficult to think of how to interact with such mind numbing stupidity.... But is it "leftist" multiculturalism? Or is it something else?

Yes, there definitely is a kind of leftist 'allow the state to decide what's good for you' mentality to it all -- but perhaps it's really far more complex and insidious...

Under the banner of "Social Justice" and "liberalism" the Western World has experienced a "Cultural Revolution" similar to the one which occurred in China under Mao -- It has been far less draconian than China's debacle, but the damage to our culture has been devastating nevertheless...

During China's nightmare, Chinese elites attempted to erase the collective consciousness of the population, ostensibly to 'start over' with a clean slate -- i.e. the impediments of collective cultural memory were preventing the final ascendancy of PURE MARXISM -- Solution? Destroy the culture by brutally crushing all of its instruments, and then fill the now empty vessels/vassals with pure communist zeal. No borders, no religion, no history, no national identity, no individualism, no collective memory -- NO PROBLEMS...!

But it was a horrific HORRIFIC disaster -- probably Mao's worst crime against humanity -- hundreds of millions murdered -- -- Chinese culture is still reeling 45 years later...

This is such and extreme form of radicalism -- I'm not sure if it falls under the rubric of leftism, or something unique. It certainly seems to transcend the normal notions of Leftism and Rightism as we practice it in the West...

Our Cultural Revolution has been far less draconian than China's, but I would maintain that the effects, which have eroded our society for 40 years now, have been catastrophic.... The founding fathers of the US are now depicted as horrific hypocrites to grade school students -- a modern day filter is ruthlessly applied towards historic figures which is impossible for them to endure... The ideas and ideals of these historic figures are displaced from the discussion, their faults and hypocrisies are held up as the true object of study -- and the post facto notion that from such mysogynistic hypocritical slave owning hegemonistic lying white men, no good idea could possibly flow -- POOF! The entire thread of Western thought, and TRUE liberalism -- the thousand year march towards TRUE liberal secularism, true humanism, true progressive progress is shunted aside -- and a misguided ideology, devoid of VALUES, promising nothing but destructive criticism, the harboring of hatreds and grievances, and the promulgation of nihilism is placed, like a cuckoo egg, in the mind of the pupil -- All that happened is forgotten -- all that transpired is seen through the poisonous lens of antiestablishmentarianism -- a form of nihilist religion whose believers are no less extreme than the Muslim fascist -- the secular zealots -- the destroyers of culture true enemies of the West -- George Soros is a traitor. Jaque Chirac is a traitor. Gerhardt Schroeder is a traitor. Kofi Annan is an enemy.

The high priests of these crimes have infiltrated the centers of influence, at think tanks, in unversities, at the U.N., and in nearly EVERY government in the EU, Canada, and to a far leseer extent the USA...

Posted by: jsla at October 24, 2005 1:09 PM

KT

So, after being so blatantly exposed for the fool & hypocrit you are, it actually took you the best part of 4 days to come up with this little piece of deflection?

How very Islamic of you. Accuse the accuser.

After 4 days of "dismissing" & "ignoring" my reasonable requests of you, this is the very best excuse you have for not seeking out the darker side of Islam in Cyberspace (as you seek us out in Cyberspace)that you could come up with?

This is your only defence as to why you have not at any time, of your own volition, sought to confront the anti Liberal, anti Democratic, pro Jihadists in Cyberspace, as you confront many of us here at JW / DW?

If you do not know any anti Liberal, anti Western, anti Democratic pro Jihad websites KT, can you really say you have any understanding of what I & many others are talking about here at JW / DW?

You have just admitted that your only exposure & knowledge of Muslims is from your cosy coffee mornings with Muslim colleagues.

You are not even prepared to simply search the web on your own to find some "balance" to your Liberal pro Islam views?

And I should help you to go out & find some true Liberal balance in your views?

Such poor tactics, such a poor attempt at evasion through deflection.

Dear oh dear.

I was expecting a small challenge, but this is really pathetic KT, even for you.

And now I know the whole truth about you & your lack of knowledge with regards to the Jihad we all face in the West, I need trouble myself with you no more.

You are finally dismissed.

Best regards
Albion

(Final score 6-1)

Posted by: albion at October 24, 2005 1:36 PM

jsla, did you see the link I showed you?

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at October 24, 2005 1:45 PM

That, KT, was a miserable attempt at deflection. Sad.

Robert, ban the troll. He really indeed has nothing to contribute.

Nothing. As suspected.

Prophet Geoff
Regicist

Posted by: Geoff at October 24, 2005 1:56 PM

albion: "So, after being so blatantly exposed for the fool & hypocrit you are, it actually took you the best part of 4 days to come up with this little piece of deflection?"

King: Deflection? No. Hoisting you with your own petard, YES! Been without internet for 3 days due to weather condition in my region.

The rest of your hissy fit was totally, totally expected, including your cute little score there at the bottom. This is why I was sooooooo wanting you to revisit this. This one was a classic and I thank you for being as predictible as I speculated.

Alas, your "dhimmiwatching skills" are limited to the comfort of your own company. When put on the spot as you tried to put me on, your "skills" were limited to name calling. You've failed at validating your own usefulness as a "dhimmiwatcher" which is why you had another tantrum. Truly, you have no idea what websites you think I should be posting on!

Here's a little hint, you urchin: Do you honestly think that pro-jihadi websites would actaully be in English, open to the public and openly discussing global jihad?

albion: "You are not even prepared to simply search the web on your own to find some "balance" to your Liberal pro Islam views?"

King: Never said that at all - I was only trying to engage your supposed skills and capabilities knowing fully well that you would go childish on me, call more names and count score on the bottom of the chalk board. You've been check-mated, "mate" and your tantrum tells me you know that.

Best regards, indeed!

Geoff: "Robert, ban the troll. He really indeed has nothing to contribute."

King: Yes! Ban free speech! It will reduce you, finally, to the level of those whom you are here to hate.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 24, 2005 2:00 PM

By the way, Geoff - that was probably one of the most obnoxious examples of unsolicited cheerleading I've seen. Even worse than Gary. Have you no shame?

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 24, 2005 2:04 PM

jsla, did you see the link I showed you?

Yes -- Thanks -- VERY interesting -- I reposted your link later in that thread, and added another...

Well worth reading and exactly on target...

Posted by: jsla at October 24, 2005 2:21 PM

On the banning of the disruptive obsessive compulsive freak show...

King-Troll-Who-Rants states: "Yes! Ban free speech! It will reduce you, finally, to the level of those whom you are here to hate."

Hmmmm... Where to begin...

It's not 'banning free speech...' Banning your utterly juvenile personal jihad against this site would be a solely positive thing... Ridding this site of your off topic posts, your adolescent rantings, your ad hominem attacks, your boring efforts to endlessly derail the comment threads, and your relentless attempts to divert the discussion away from the topics at hand, and to deflect the discussion away from Islamic jihad, and ridding the site of your tiresome fatuous strivings to cause as much disruption as you can...

Banning free speech? I think not.

It wouldn't be 'limiting free speech' No, definitely not. It's simply taking out the trash, compacting it -- wrapping it in a little plastic bag -- securing it with a neat little twist, and leaving it by the curb for the garbage man to take dump in a landfill. Your posts belong buried with all the other worthless junk and rotting filth that gets thrown out ever day!

Posted by: jsla at October 24, 2005 2:41 PM

Couldn't find any English language jihad sites currently in operation on Internet Haganah, but they listed this French one:

http://www.ribaat.org/

Posted by: waterdragon52 at October 24, 2005 2:43 PM

"Your posts belong buried with all the other worthless junk and rotting filth that gets thrown out ever day!"

King: Gee, I think the exact same of you. I just love your embracing of "jihad" in general. Everyone is out to wage "jihad" against you, right? WHere would you be without "jihad." Why, you'd have nothing to moan about and nothing to fight over.

When its something, like an opinion, you don't like, you simply make your little wagon circle and call names, hoping the opposite opinion holder will go away. That is precisely the dynamic here and has been from day #1. I think Geoff was among the first "welcomers" as within 3 posts his ire was way up and the poo was flung. The rest is history. Now the others will join in with their guttersnipe and cheer you on. I could not care any less....

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 24, 2005 2:46 PM

WD: "Couldn't find any English language jihad sites currently in operation on Internet"

King: Right you are. No score keeping for me, I'll just feel nice and toasty knowing what transpired here.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 24, 2005 2:50 PM

I think we're just going to ignore you for a while - it's fun to watch the stinky troll starve to death when nobody cares enough to feed it....

Back on topic --

The idea that the Dutch are "struggling" with Muslim immigration strikes me as strange. As I posted above, their latest and greatest idea has been to subject those native born Dutch who have only acheived an 8th grade education to "Islam sensitivity classes" --- As if the intolerance displayed among Muslim in Holland is simply caused by some ephemeral 'intolerance' or ignorance or lack of understanding among the Dutch underclass... If this is an example of "struggling" with the Muslim menace, it isn't a very encouraging start...

Posted by: jsla at October 24, 2005 3:56 PM

"I think we're just going to ignore you for a while.."

King: There ya go, you're catching on! Exercise your own free speech and feel free to ignore me. Or, you could also feel as free as Albion and exercise your "dhimmiwatcher" skills and show me the sites you think I ought to be posting on. You know, those easy to find websites that openly discuss jihad and allow all outsiders to come on it. The irony is just spilling over here.

I've noticed an interesting phenom. When I or IA post in a thread, the posts often increase and sometimes even break 100. When we do not post, the responses to the threads are often a paultry 20, 30 tops, usually of the same people day in and day out.
It is clear to see who feeds whom...

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 24, 2005 4:08 PM

I think we're just going to ignore you for a while - it's fun to watch the stinky troll starve to death when nobody cares enough to feed it....

Back on topic --

The idea that the Dutch are "struggling" with Muslim immigration strikes me as strange. As I posted above, their latest and greatest idea has been to subject those native born Dutch who have only acheived an 8th grade education to "Islam sensitivity classes" --- As if the intolerance displayed among Muslim in Holland is simply caused by some ephemeral 'intolerance' or ignorance or lack of understanding among the Dutch underclass... If this is an example of "struggling" with the Muslim menace, it isn't a very encouraging start...

Posted by: jsla at October 24, 2005 4:25 PM

For KT only

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net/

Here's a jihad site right up your alley. I'm sure you'll have some enlightening conversations and meet some new jihadi friends.

Consider this a gift from the JW/DW posters.

Posted by: William The Crusader at October 24, 2005 4:36 PM

WC: Here's a jihad site right up your alley. I'm sure you'll have some enlightening conversations and meet some new jihadi friends. Consider this a gift from the JW/DW posters.

King: In return my I offer you this site where Muslims and non-Muslims together share a vision of a world without hate and war.

Posted by: KingTolerence at October 24, 2005 4:47 PM

My zen is further enhanced by people playing games, making imposter posts on my behalf!

Thanks, WC! Thanks!

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 24, 2005 4:59 PM

Sorry, can't take credit for that one KT. But it will be easy for us to to remember the real KT. Your'e the one with the A for Asshole in your name. lol.

Posted by: William The Crusader at October 24, 2005 6:17 PM

King: In return my I offer you this site where Muslims and non-Muslims together share a vision of a world without hate and war.

Then he posts a link to Al Jizzeera!

You are one sick puppy, my little coffee-filter!

I call this disease "Flatulenza Islamiya" - you really have caught an incurable dose of it!

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at October 25, 2005 1:17 AM

sheik: "I call this disease "Flatulenza Islamiya"

King: Right - this "Old Chestnut" is as childish and unfunny for the 50th time and it was the first time.

Crusader: "Your'e the one with the A for Asshole in your name. lol."

King: I am so, so happy that you and "sheik" have your best adolescent offerings heading into the archives, further dragging your beloved website through the mud. Its been my pleasure to fascilitate you doing it!

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 25, 2005 9:00 AM

Super Weak KT,

"...local weather conditions..."

Mmmkay, alright.

Watching you wriggle & worm & attempt to extricate yourself from the hook & bait I set for you has been somewhat amusing, & of course has proven a number of self evident truths with regards to your character:

A:) You are here to denigrate this invaluable website (admitted by you on more than one occasion)

B:) You wish to make visiting here an unpleasant experience for new visitors & the weak stomached liberals we seem to be awash with in the West.
(again, admitted by you)

C:) You are interested in Islam, Muslims & Jihad only as a vehicle to attack those on the opposite side of the democratic political spectrum to yourself.
(obvious)

(C:) is a self evident truth because:

A:) Your proven & sustained lack of knowledge with regards to the topic at hand.

B:) You have made no attempt to educate yourself with an open mind - vis a vis Islam, inspite of the valuable information resource in which you choose to participate in - JW / DW.

I knew you would have difficulty finding English language Jihad websites & I make no apology for misleading you in setting this little trap for you - the question is KT, why did you not know straight off the bat? Obviously you had never looked before, & I refer the dis-honourable gentlemen to point (C:) above for the reason why you never looked.

Anyone with any interest in "Liberal Balance" or "Intellectual Honesty" (sorry for spelling this correctly for you) would have checked & re-checked their facts before forming such an absolute position & opinion as yours is, let alone unleashing a tirade of BS & provocative Liberal fascist bias here.

Your position, based on the self evident facts is entirely consistent with point (C:) above.

This little episode has proven beyond any doubt that you do indeed hate the West, & would side with the devil himself if he wore an anti Neo Con STOP BUSH Teeshirt.

You are indeed a Western Hating Liberal, with a modicum of Cowardice thrown in, with niether sense nor reason nor a culture & heritage you value or respect for comfort.

This is not the post I planned for you at this juncture KT, but the emptiness & vacuous nature of your arguments & defence & your now obvious lack of all credibility has somewhat thwarted the grand finale I did have planned for you.

Never mind.

There will be other KTs here I am sure for me to mildly amuse myself with.

But not you, if you had any shame, which judging from all your posts you are as bereft of as intelligence.

Kind regards
Albion

(7-1 in this limited extra time period...or is this a Golden Goal)

Posted by: albion at October 25, 2005 11:12 AM

King: "I am so, so happy that you and "sheik" have your best adolescent offerings heading into the archives, further dragging your beloved website through the mud. Its been my pleasure to fascilitate you doing it!"

...?

LOL. Dragging the website through the mud? Facilitate (not "fascilitate", sad) us doing it?

To quote General Custer at the start of the Big Horn:

Huh?

So KT comes on the site, ruins his cause, looks like an ass, posts a radical site that Water's already warned us about and then thinks WE'VE messed up somehow?

Er...

KT, are you by any chance a recent mental patient? Or just a radical islamicist? Either would explain your constant demagogy and triumphalism while simultaneously doing no more than demonizing your opponents.

So, I guess, it's really kind of the reverse: we should be thanking you for coming here and exposing your position as nonsense. Everyone at the lab thinks you're a hoot.

LOL!

Prophet Geoff
BBUM

PS: By sidenote, here's an interesting Wikipedia set:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Islam

Posted by: Geoff at October 25, 2005 11:17 AM

PS: Sheik - "flatulenza islamiya". Also a hoot.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at October 25, 2005 11:21 AM

albion: "Never mind."

King: I won't. I am completely enjoying the zen of seeing you hoisted by your own petard and trying to somehow "work out of it" with repetitive, lengthy posts. Indeed, you have been caught - you could not produce even one Pro Jihad website when you were asked to. That's all I asked. Give me a Pro Jihadi website since you demanded that I make posts to one. You could not and now whine. Some "dhimmiwatcher."

Not even Goeff, your sad little spell-checking, acronym factory of a cheerleader is able to help you, so he joins in the invective, as usual. ANd yes, Goeff, I spelled your name wrong on purpose.

As for weather, I live in a region that suffered severe flooding over the past several days, causing mass power outages and, yes, loss of internet service, but I'll even let you slide on this.

It is pure zen to have the both of you in the vortex in which you belong. Sort of like watching a toilet gurgle its contents downward.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 25, 2005 12:36 PM

Goeff: "Everyone at the lab thinks you're a hoot."

King: That's funny, everyone here thinks you beat your wife. That reminds me, we have a new acronym for you now:

GTIPBSWB. Figure it out! I know its not a spelling error so this one will require some thought on your part.

Oh, I almost forgot...

LOL!

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 25, 2005 12:41 PM

Ho. ho. ho.

Priceless. Shameless.

Posted by: albion at October 25, 2005 1:15 PM

KingIntolerance: "Indeed, you have been caught"

Indeed? Kind of dramatic, no? "Indeed, for allah is all-knowing, all-seeing!"

KingIntolerance: "you could not produce even one Pro Jihad website when you were asked to. That's all I asked. Give me a Pro Jihadi website since you demanded that I make posts to one. You could not and now whine. Some "dhimmiwatcher."

Holy non-denominational-deistic-blasphemy exclamation, Batman. Is KT on crack? He 'indeed' has been given some. I would add www.um mah.com to the list. Is he serious? Really? LOL

"yes, Goeff, I spelled your name wrong on purpose"

I'm trying to see why this would bother me. I cannot. It is like the sound of one cheek farting: odiferous, but unimportant.

KingIntolerance: "It is pure zen to have the both of you in the vortex in which you belong."

Not really. I occupy that position. It amazes me that so little effort is required to get you to shake like that. I can feel my zen accumulating as it drains off you like spittle on your computer screen.

KingIntolerance: "That's funny, everyone here thinks you beat your wife. That reminds me, we have a new acronym for you now: GTIPBSWB. Figure it out!"

Is it: "Geoff, Think I Prefer Big Studs With Breasts"? Actually, that would be more of a message, though I don't really see why you're telling me this.

I suppose I have some curiousity about this persistent acronymic hatred you have of me, but only to the extent that it reveals your psychotic understreak. Is it some kind of islamic thing, like the introduction to the first few Sura? However, I'd probably divest myself of the ad hominem were I you. I don't think people who "help their nephews with internet projects" should be throwing stones at other people's personal lives. =)

KT, your rage consumes you like an islamic fire consumes churches and innocent lives. Why not simply adopt a perspective of peace and reflection? Or thought, even.

For I remain,

Prophet Geoff
Beer Be Upon Me

Posted by: Geoff at October 25, 2005 1:42 PM

Almost forgot:

"Here's a little hint, you urchin: Do you honestly think that pro-jihadi websites would actaully be in English, open to the public and openly discussing global jihad?"

Urchin? Wierd.

Well, no, not all - that's why we have Aaron and MEMRI, after all, and may Y-hw-h or whoever it may be bless them for their hard work - but many are. Again: um mah.com. There are others such as jamaat.net (which I assumed "pwnage" of for a period of around eight months, obliterating one nutbar after another including those who wanted to kill homosexuals, apostates, and enforce barbarism), but why would I give you their websites? So that you could go over there and sympathize with them?

Seriously, have you ever been institutionalized for mental illness? This is a real question.

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Posted by: Geoff at October 25, 2005 1:48 PM

"Urchin? Wierd."

King: Or is it WEird? Get a dictionary, guttersnipe.

Posted by: KingTolerance at October 25, 2005 2:48 PM

ho. ho. ho.

Priceless. Shameless.....

& Pointless.

Posted by: albion at October 25, 2005 2:51 PM

ho. ho. ho.

Taking a short break from us hey KT?

Mmmmkay. Alright.

I was expecting at least some semblance of a coherent rebuttal to points (A:) through to (C:).

But no.

Its pointless "keeping your eye on me" if you cannot form a meaningful response.

Why bother?

(& no KT, rolling your eyes at warp speed & LOL does not count as an adequate "response")

Look at the sad drivel you have responded with here on this thread - all instantly retrievable from The Mighty Jihadwatch / Dhimmiwatch archive.

No incisive, cutting remarks destroying any aspect of (A:) through to (C:)?

No challenge at all to the points raised?

Are you taking a short break (I'm out) to form & think of a response?

Or are there more unexpected, yet oh so fortunate for you, adverse weather conditions to call upon in defence?

Stay tuned? Of course, what with entertainment like this for free?

Undomesticated equines could not drag me away.

Don't go changing....

Salutations
Albion

Posted by: albion at October 25, 2005 4:18 PM

Oh. Oh my. An ACTUAL typo. This would be yet another way in which we differ, KingIntolerance: I don't really give my postings that much attention, so the odd typo is indeed possible.

On the other hand, it seems to take you a while to stir up the froth in your maniac expresso.

Still, don't be discouraged. Try to answer albion - sometime, eventually, if it's not too much trouble - and "perseverate" on.

LOL!

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Posted by: Geoff at October 25, 2005 8:57 PM

Hey, just noticed this:

King: "Yes! Ban free speech! It will reduce you, finally, to the level of "

Frankly I stopped reading this one halfway through as it was getting far too ridiculous. KT is worried about free speech on a private website, but not in Middle Eastern countries where overt non-muslims (or even worse, apostates from islam) can be killed.

That's not equivalency. It's far, far worse.

Stupid Wahhabit.

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Posted by: Geoff at October 25, 2005 9:00 PM

Oh KT

(he of local adverse weather conditions fame)

I guess because of the amount of time that has now elapsed since I posted, & your obvious lack of any coherent response, I take it that I must have hit the nail firmly & truly & squarely on the head where your character, & my analysis of your character, is concerned.

8-1

I am yawning profusely at your latest waste of space of an offering.

Again,

It is totally pointless "keeping your eye on me" if you cannot form any meaningful response.

I see you there, chuckling, cursing & dribbling to yourself as your eyes roll, but still I feel totally underwhelmed by your responses.

I don't know why I thought you worth the bother.

Patently you are not.

I think I'll go on some Welsh Nationalist website forums, at least they can string an original, well thought out set of insults to throw at & amuse me.

They're good like that, the Welsh, & I admire them for it.

Again,

No surgeon like incisive, cutting remarks destroying any aspect of (A:) through to (C:)?

No interferometer laser pinpointing the flaws in my assessment of you?

No challenge at all to the points raised?

Mmmkay. Alright.

Much too easy.

All the best old son

Albion

Posted by: albion at October 26, 2005 5:51 PM