...and of course, what are the BBC World Service telling us about this:

NOTHING!

If it wasn't for DW I swear I wouldn't know about this important issue.

Posted by: Timbo at October 27, 2005 6:22 AM

You are absolutely right, Timbo. Just prior to reading your post I was thinking almost the same thing: why didn't I read anything about this in other news sources? Here in my country I only saw the story reported by one channel in a thirty-seconds piece. Compare this to the toilet-Koran incident or with the Kosovo Albanians. Ridiculous.

Posted by: cruzado at October 27, 2005 7:02 AM

Okay, Fox News: don't let us down.

Posted by: Mad_Jack at October 27, 2005 7:13 AM

These are persecuted Christians, just like the church attacks in Pakistan and the church closings in Indonesia. A non-starter, an empty story, won't bring any new readers to the printed page or viewers to the screen. Maybe if it was a slow news month, maybe then we could squeeze a para in next to the horoscopes, under the advert for Crazy Leo's BlowOut Annual Tire Sale.

Christians can only look to themselves, Jews, and Hindus (religious organizations and NGOs) for help. The MSM, ACLU, UN,and Western governments, not to mention institutions of higher "learning" will not lift a flacid finger to help. After all, they're CHRISTIANS, they brought it on themselves, have noone but themselves to blame, and, well, you know, they really did have it coming.

There isn't a group on earth more custom made, and more condusive to, the "lynchmob mentality"
than islam. Cowards hiding in a pack, outrage going full-throttle, hallucinating about what brave defenders they are. I think that's why they use the street-filling mob so often. Being the spineless bastards that they are, they need to pack them tightly together to prop each other up. Being spineless, they would crumple if confronting some insult alone.

Posted by: t-ham at October 27, 2005 8:10 AM

I think that whatever the Muslims do to the Church in Egypt should be done to the Mosques in the UK and America. "Do unto others" as someone once said. The more these Muslim dogs are allowed to get away with this kind of violence the more they will do it. Maybe everybody should mail their local mosque a strip of bacon.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at October 27, 2005 8:32 AM

What is our state department doing? Is the American Consulates ambassador at the door of Mubarak? Has the President lodged a major complain to Mubarak? Have we threatened to withdrawal any of the billions of dollars that we give to Egypt? Who among is coming to the aid of the oldest followers of Jesus Christ; the Coptic Christians?

Posted by: Mackie at October 27, 2005 8:45 AM

Hallucinating is right t-ham.

You might find this interesting:

http://www.policyreview.org/AUG02/harris.html

Al-Qaeda's Fantasy Ideology

.

Posted by: fides at October 27, 2005 9:40 AM

Something must be done to save those Christians trapped in Egypt:

What the Copts are suffering in Egypt goes beyond mere persecution; they are facing a deliberate planed eradication campaign financed by the Egyptian state, Sadat era Islamist robber barons, and massive amount of Saudi da’wa donations. Their situation is unattainable.

The situation of Copts in the countryside is far worst and entire villages were cleansed of their vulnerable Coptic population, escaping to shantytowns on the outskirts of cities, leaving their farmland and homes to live on top of mounds of garbage in dumps, hacking out a living by sorting garbage by hand for recycling, helping make Egypt the most successful recycler in the world. The refuge Copts of the shantytowns are a great example in the triumph of the human spirit: on their own, they were able to build homes, hock up electricity and basic infrastructure. They basically save Egypt many millions of dollars of imported raw materials by painstakingly sorting and remanufacturing Egypt’s garbage. Organic materials in the garbage are used as animal feed for chickens, goats, and pigs.

Despite living on the foothills of a mountain surrounded by God awful smells, they are content in living in an exclusively Christian Community, carving an entire church out of the rock face of the mountain, built on the tomb of a Coptic saint who is said to have moved the mountain by the power of prayer to save the Copts from genocide if they failed to prove what Christ said, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith like a mustard seed, you can move mountains." Matthew 17:20. Apparently, the Fatmide Muslim government used the reclaimed real-estate to promptly build more mosques.

The currant Egyptian government, bothered by the unlikely success and renewed faith of this remarkable community of outcasts, has decided to destroy the community by giving a multimillion dollar contract to an Italian waste management firm to collect municipal garbage and entomb it permanently in Western style dumps. The new dump built on the outskirt of Alexandria is a resounding failure which ruined multi-billion dollar tourist ventures with its ungodly stench.

The Copts are insulted daily, harassed, and are subject to physical threats and intimidation by their pious and even not-so-pious neighbors, co-workers, teachers, professors, government bureaucrats, the police, the army, which is all before the hardcore Islamists can get their bound of flesh. They can not make a living, find a job in the private sector controlled by Islamists and Gulf money (there are actual signs saying we do not hire Christians), even when a Coptic investor builds a business, he is forced to hire Muslim managers and a majority Muslim workforce. The Copts are being phased out in all aspects of Egyptian society. Medicine, long the domain of Christians, has descended into chaos as Christians were severely restricted from entering this field. The Azhar University, an exclusively institution graduated generations of fanatical doctors that brought down the standards of care. The other public medical schools permit low single digit percentages of Christians and bars them form certain specialties such as OBGYN.
By now, most of you are familiar with the well orchestrated campaign of kidnapping, gang raping, and forcibly converting Coptic women and girls in order to humiliate the Copts and destroy their social fabric. If Egypt is considered a model of moderate Islam, I hate to see what immoderate Islam looks like… I guess that is the Islam seen in Egypt’s southern neighbor, Sudan.

I think that the Copts in the West are a good counterbalance to the Muslim pooh-hooh, poor us, give us more, cry and shout game. Every Copt in the West is a walking encyclopedia of Islamic violence, lies, and crap; speaking to anyone who would listen. I guess that their vocal protests have won them few friends in the American government which is insisting on keeping its tongue-and-cheek relationship with “moderate” Egypt and the Copts be damned. Just like the Assyrians in Iraq, the Copts are an inconvenient diplomatic nuisance, but on a much larger scale.

Posted by: have_mercy at October 27, 2005 9:55 AM

Something must be done to save those Christians trapped in Egypt:

What the Copts are suffering in Egypt goes beyond mere persecution; they are facing a deliberate planed eradication campaign financed by the Egyptian state, Sadat era Islamist robber barons, and massive amount of Saudi da’wa donations. Their situation is unattainable.

The situation of Copts in the countryside is far worst and entire villages were cleansed of their vulnerable Coptic population, escaping to shantytowns on the outskirts of cities, leaving their farmland and homes to live on top of mounds of garbage in dumps, hacking out a living by sorting garbage by hand for recycling, helping make Egypt the most successful recycler in the world. The refuge Copts of the shantytowns are a great example in the triumph of the human spirit: on their own, they were able to build homes, hock up electricity and basic infrastructure. They basically save Egypt many millions of dollars of imported raw materials by painstakingly sorting and remanufacturing Egypt’s garbage. Organic materials in the garbage are used as animal feed for chickens, goats, and pigs.

Despite living on the foothills of a mountain surrounded by God awful smells, they are content in living in an exclusively Christian Community, carving an entire church out of the rock face of the mountain, built on the tomb of a Coptic saint who is said to have moved the mountain by the power of prayer to save the Copts from genocide if they failed to prove what Christ said, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith like a mustard seed, you can move mountains." Matthew 17:20. Apparently, the Fatmide Muslim government used the reclaimed real-estate to promptly build more mosques.

The currant Egyptian government, bothered by the unlikely success and renewed faith of this remarkable community of outcasts, has decided to destroy the community by giving a multimillion dollar contract to an Italian waste management firm to collect municipal garbage and entomb it permanently in Western style dumps. The new dump built on the outskirts of Alexandria is a resounding failure which ruined multi-billion dollar tourist ventures with its ungodly stench.

The Copts are insulted daily, harassed, and are subject to physical threats and intimidation by their pious and even not-so-pious neighbors, co-workers, teachers, professors, government bureaucrats, the police, the army, which is all before the hardcore Islamists can get their bound of flesh. They can not make a living, find a job in the private sector controlled by Islamists and Gulf money (there are actual signs saying we do not hire Christians), even when a Coptic investor builds a business, he is forced to hire Muslim managers and a majority Muslim workforce. The Copts are being phased out in all aspects of Egyptian society. Medicine, long the domain of Christians, has descended into utter chaos as Christians were severely restricted from entering this field. The Azhar University, an exclusively Muslim institution, graduated generations of fanatical doctors that brought down the standards of care. The other public medical schools permit low single digit percentages of Christians and bars them form certain specialties such as OBGYN.

By now, most of you are familiar with the well orchestrated campaign of kidnapping, gang raping, and forcibly converting Coptic women and girls in order to humiliate the Copts and destroy their social fabric. If Egypt is considered a model of moderate Islam, I hate to see what immoderate Islam looks like… I guess that is the Islam seen in Egypt’s southern neighbor, Sudan.

I think that the Copts in the West are a good counterbalance to the Muslim pooh-hooh, poor us, give us more, cry and shout game. Every Copt in the West is a walking encyclopedia of Islamic violence, lies, and crap; speaking to anyone who would listen. I guess that their vocal protests have won them few friends in the American government which is insisting on keeping its tongue-and-cheek relationship with “moderate” Egypt and the Copts be damned. Just like the Assyrians in Iraq, the Copts are an inconvenient diplomatic nuisance, but on a much larger scale.

Posted by: have_mercy at October 27, 2005 10:09 AM

THE FOLLOWING ARE COMMENTS FROM AL HARRAM NEWSPAPER OCT.26,2005

ONE STEP FORWARD,TWO STEPS BACKWARD.

The latest Muslim-Christian dispute may have been peacefully defused, but Mustafa El-Menshawy, in Alexandria, senses tension in the air
Last week's sectarian tension in Alexandria began in much the same way previous Muslim-Christian disputes had: with the publication of a tabloid story. This time, the newspaper in question -- Al-Midan -- published an article about a church play that defamed Islam. The play -- which begins with a poor Christian university student converting to Islam after a group of Muslim men offer him money to do so -- was called I was blind but now I can see. The twist in the plot comes when the convert later decides to return to Christianity. The same Muslims then threaten him with violence.

The day after the article -- which included extracts from the play -- appeared, a group of people entered a mosque next door to the church in question, and showed worshippers a copy of the paper. An angry crowd of about 100 people promptly marched towards the neighbouring church. As word spread around, the crowd got bigger, with some 3,000 people eventually taking part. Some were there to support the demonstrators' demands, while others were just curious about the goings on. Local police were quickly deployed in the hundreds; and by three in the morning, had dispersed the angry demonstrators.

But while the demonstration may have ended peacefully after the police intervened, the tension in the Muharram Bek neighbourhood is far from defused. Its most visible sign are the dozens of armoured vehicles surrounding the Saint George Church. Local Muslims are insisting that the church, as well as Coptic leaders in the Mediterranean coastal city, should apologise for the performance. "Pope Shenouda [the head of Egypt's Coptic Church] must offer an apology," said Ahmed El-Guindi, whose house is next door to the church, "and those directly involved in insulting Islam on stage inside the church have to be put on trial."

One resident said the demonstrators had agreed to leave on condition that the police would be given "a week to obtain an explanation about what happened, and for the church to apologize". Nearly a week later, the two demands have not been met, fueling fears that more protests could take place.

Al-Majlis Al-Milli, a council that officially represents the Coptic community and is chaired by Pope Shenouda, acknowledged that the play was performed in the church -- two years ago. Dismissing claims that the play was meant to insult Islam, the council said -- in a statement sent to Al-Ahram Weekly -- that "it was performed for one day within the context of combating terrorism."

According to a close aide of Pope Shenouda, "the demonstrators took to the streets without verifying whether the press reports about the play were right or wrong." The top church official, Archbishop Armia, said, "Christians have no grudges against Islam."

Despite these reassurances, the incident was a vivid reminder of how fragile relations between Muslims and Christians have become. Also last week, some 500 people demonstrated in front of a Christian woman's house in Ain Shams, an eastern suburb of Cairo, after a "rumour" spread that she had kidnapped a girl and forced her to embrace Christianity. The police arrested the woman and searched her house. She was later released after the girl was found to have lost consciousness following a car accident, and was being cared for by a stranger.

Sameh Fawzi, the editor of Watani (My Nation), a prominent Coptic newspaper, says that "reading a number of tabloid newspapers will clearly reveal how a sensitive topic like religion is often manipulated to pit Muslims and Christians against each other." Several newspapers, for instance, have recently been running stories claiming that churches are doing intensive missionary work among university students across the country.

Other analysts go further, saying the government, on the one hand, and Christian leaders, on the other, are using the press for explicit political ends. "With more external support from the US," said Coptic thinker Gamal Asaad, "church leaders are trying to put more pressure on the government."

In fact, a US-government sponsored conference on Coptic grievances in Egypt is scheduled for 16 November in Washington. Participants will reportedly press for the Egyptian government to provide more freedoms for Copts. They will also demand the amendment of a constitutional article that considers Islam "Egypt's official religion and main source of legislation". The meeting is seen as a means for Washington to exercise more pressure on the Egyptian government, and for Copts to extract more concessions at home.

Asaad, who is known for his criticism of the church's involvement in politics, said that when "the government faces church leaders' political escalation, it resorts to triggering Islamist fears." To prove his point, Asaad cited press reports that State Security officers orchestrated the Alexandria protests. If that is true, he said, the government was clearly attempting to embarrass Coptic leaders.

Waleed Orabi, the journalist who wrote the Al-Midan story, said he had obtained a CD of the performance from a source inside the Alexandria church where the play took place. He refused to provide any other details on the matter.

Muharram Bek, where the protests took place, is known as a hotbed of Islamism. Eyewitnesses, however, said the people who instigated worshippers to demonstrate outside the church "were from Cairo, and not from the neighbourhood".

Coptic analyst Kamel Zakher said a bigger problem was the way the government tended to deal with incidents like the one that took place in Alexandria. "The government has to stop dealing with Coptic issues from a security perspective. It has to face grievances head-on." One suggestion, he said, was to raise awareness about differences between Islam and Christianity, and the need to respect both religious paths.

Residents said that imams from neighbourhood mosques were actually brought in by the police to convince the demonstrators to disperse. These imams supposedly told the crowd that Islam is a religion that promotes tolerance between Muslims and Christians, and that this was the wrong way to express their grievances about the play.

Asaad and other analysts also urge church authorities to end their monopoly over Christian politics, which they said has prevented the rise of a more vibrant political dialogue amongst ordinary Christians. A nationwide reform movement encouraging more political participation by both Muslims and Christians, as was the case before the 1952 Revolution, would also help, Asaad said.

In 2000, when 20 Copts and one Muslim were killed in clashes in Upper Egypt's Kosheh village, prominent political analyst Mohamed Hassanein Heikal appealed to President Hosni Mubarak to take drastic measures towards settling the root causes of sectarian disputes. There has also been subsequent US pressure on the regime in that same vein.

Two years ago, Mubarak enacted a decree allowing Coptic Christmas an official national holiday.

In September, Assiut Governor Ahmed Hammam, a Muslim, laid the foundations for a LE3 million church. The governorate had previously been the scene of bloody clashes between Muslims and Christians.

The international community has hailed some of these moves. In September, the US State Department's annual international religious freedom report said the Egyptian government had taken steps to promote and improve "religious freedom and tolerance".

Posted by: Mackie at October 27, 2005 10:18 AM

How about a trade. The Coptics come to the United States, and the Michael Moore-Ward Churchill-Cindy Sheehan types go to Egypt to live under a tolerant, Islamic, non-Christian state.

Posted by: Balrog at October 27, 2005 10:28 AM

Experts by Western vistors

Sustainable Garbage by Moon

Cairo

Vegetable gardens thrive in the garbage dumps of Cairo. Toxicity? Who knows? On the other hand, the inhabitants are more than tenth generation, so presumably, some immunization may have kicked in genetically.

Cairo's garbage dump is a city in its own right. The population is mostly Coptic Christian, driven into the enclave by the Muslim majority of Egypt many decades ago, and locked in now by birth and economics. They are Cairo's garbage collectors, plain and simple. No fancy compactor trucks, no curbside recycling boxes; the collectors are just people with carts and other makeshift conveyances who collect the garbage and haul it home to the dump. They themselves do the recycling.

Schools, a hospital, some manufacturing, composting, growing--the Cairo dump has all this, built on a mountain of garbage. My first contact with this community was when, as Canadian director of the international Cheshire Homes Foundation, I responded to a request to help establish a prosthetics factory for veterans of the Suez War and for child amputees, mostly Coptic Christian refugees from the civil wars rife in the region. That facility is up and running, situated in the garbage dump and utilizing recycled materials from the dump itself. The Cairo garbage dump is self-sustaining in most respects, and monetization of other people's garbage finances the rest.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

On Wednesday we spent most of the day at Mokattam, the garbage suburb thing of Cairo, on Mokattam Mountain. The "zabaleen" (garbagemen) are mostly Coptic Christians, and they bring the garbage to their city where they sort it. Their goats and pigs and donkeys eat what food that is still fresh (it's collected daily), and they recycle what they can. It's filthy, but the people are amazing. It's here that I go with Jean to the Sisters of Charity house to play with the babies. There are some churches on the other side of the city, and after walking through it (and gathering a lot of children on the way; we looked like the Pied Piper) we met up with a bunch of schoolchildren who were extrememly patient with our lack of Arabic. It's amazing what you can communicate with a few words and a lot of sign language.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But the modernization of garbage handling in Cairo, while welcomed by many long-suffering residents, has opened a noisy debate about the fate of the city's traditional cleaning crews, who daily pad up and down thousands of apartment stairwells at dawn, toting massive baskets on their shoulders and shouting "Bring out your garbage!"

"Over the last 50 years, the zabbaleen have developed the most refined, entrepreneurial garbage processing system in the world," said Laila Rashed Iskandar, a community development expert who has worked with the city's zabbaleen for years. "They recycle 80 percent of what they collect. Now the government is planning to landfill 80 percent. How smart is that?"

Indeed, when it comes to processing waste, cleverness is a zabbaleen trademark.

Impoverished migrants from southern Egypt, the zabbaleen are mainly Coptic Christians, an agrarian community that resorted to garbage collecting in the 1940s, partly because the majority Muslim population considers such a trade "unclean" and partly as a way to help feed their herds of pigs and other animals.

Since then, the informal garbage industry has become so competitive that about one-third of Cairo's households are divided into "concessions" by the zabbaleen, essentially waste-mining claims that are passed down through individual families. Residents pay the equivalent of about $1 a month for the zabbaleen's services. But not all trash is created equal; the zabbaleen may actually pay up to $600 a month for the valuable rubbish from five-star hotels.

Once carted to the zabbaleen slums, this torrent of muck goes through a boggling array of sorting and processing.

Families specialize in recycling yogurt containers, discarded shoes, tin cans, plastic water bottles and rotting food - the latter as fodder for large herds of pigs kept in walled compounds. In some cases, the garbage is re-manufactured on-site into new products. And in a twist that would delight any economist, these garbage-born goods are often bartered for more raw garbage.

Though still impoverished, zabbaleen communities around Cairo have managed to finance home-building, small schools and a multitude of unrelated shops through the bonanza of waste.

"garbage employs thousands of people in Cairo, not just us, but technicians to fix our machines and truckers to carry our goods," said Suliman, 34, whose slum workshop grinds old sour-smelling clothes to make cheap felt. Through a middleman, the felt gets made into mats for the Egyptian army.

Like others in his squalid community tucked inside an old rock quarry, Suliman refused to give his full name. The zabbaleen here marched against the foreign sanitation companies two weeks ago. The police have cracked down since on the slum, and arrested several neighbours. Today, a new smell wafts through the foul miasma of the alleyways: fear.

The problem with the zabbaleen, Cairo officials say, is that the rustic garbage pickers are no longer capable of handling the city's burgeoning rivers of refuse - 10,000 tons a day, most of which already is collected by inefficient local companies or left to rot in empty lots or gutters.

"The Cairenes want things to be organized and clean, and who accomplishes that doesn't matter," said Gen. Mohamed Il-Leben, the director of the Cairo Cleaning and Beautification Authority.

"The zabbaleen are our brothers, but they throw a lot of their unused garbage in the mountains, everywhere," Il-Leben added. "You can imagine what kind of environmental and health threat this presents."

He said that he has been negotiating with the three European companies - Enser and FCC from Spain, and AMA from Italy - to hire as many zabbaleen as possible as garbage men. He also said that an agreement is expected to allow the companies' zabbaleen employees to pick over future dumpsites, but only under new hygienic regulations.

While most zabbaleen recognize that their current living conditions are harsh - infection rates for hepatitis, skin disease and other filth-associated ailments run high in their slums, and poverty has forced many of their children into the sorting business - few are optimistic that their lot will improve under the companies.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://mk23.image.pbase.com/u18/zjeff222/large/43076677.IMG_2790.jpg

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Posted by: have_mercy at October 27, 2005 10:30 AM

That Asaad is a b--t boy of muslims and his statement regarding Islam and Mohammed prove that he is not a Christian but a paid stooge.

Posted by: have_mercy at October 27, 2005 10:41 AM

A consistent policy of containing Islam would include shaming Muslim governments into stopping this sort of abuse. Where are our leaders - forget the MSM, they are very reactive. I seem to recall a hue and cry about nonexistent weapons and a false immenent threat that justified war, and the MSM was duped.

How about some talk about what is really going on? I suppose we are too deep into various political scandals to expect any action until 2009. Let's hope whomever is in office then, Democrat, Republican or other (Kodos anyone?), sees Islam with open eyes and develops a workable strategy to contain it. They do not have to shout it from the rooftops, just make smarter moves. Until then it looks like RS, Hugh, and people like Ali Sina are the candles in the dark. I am personally doing all I can to help others open their eyes.

Quijybo

Posted by: Quijybo at October 27, 2005 10:54 AM

Kodos! *lol* you made my day, Quijybo.

Posted by: Gary at October 27, 2005 11:03 AM

But...but...islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. These are not real muslims. They're pretend muslims. They no way represent mainstream muslims.

copyright acknowledgement; KingOfTalkingCr@p (a hypocrite)

Posted by: TooBad at October 27, 2005 11:44 AM

Where is the King? He must be formulating some of that "intellectual honesty" some some great comebacks.

Posted by: KingTesticle at October 27, 2005 12:31 PM

Should be "for some great comebacks".

Posted by: KingTesticle at October 27, 2005 12:33 PM

Kingky says that none of his muslim friends harbor extreemist or jihadist ideas, they are 'real' muslims, near sainthood. I wonder if he ever asks them their opinion on the idea that all muslims are 'obligated' to support and participate in jihad...Or die a hypocrite. And you know what Allah thinks of hypocrites. If they dont support it, they go against Allah, and are apostates. If they do support it, they are jihadists waiting to activate. We all know that the biggest enemies to Allah, are Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Bhuddists, Copts, Hindu's, Jains, Toaists, every kind of non believer, plus American, Britain, Russia, China, and every other nation and its peoples who wont roll over, go belly up, and play dhimmi. Does Kingky ever ask his muslim buddies what they think of Allahs enemies and what they intend to do about it?
Muslims all over the world have shown us that they recognise Allahs enemies and they have shown us what they will do about it.
Persecuting the Copts is a natural course of events for people who worship the supreme persecutor. Thats Allah in case you havent guessed...

Posted by: duh_swami at October 27, 2005 12:48 PM

and what part of the U.S. jizya payments to egypt
makes its way to the outcaste dump dwellers?

Posted by: otterfisher at October 27, 2005 3:30 PM

The Copts should have their own state. If the East Timorese can secede, why not the Copts?

Yes, the Muslims will massacre them by the thousands, just as they did the East Timorese, but in the end, they might win.

I'm mystified why all the Christians in the Middle East just accept their fate or move away. Why not create an alliance with other oppressed Christians and with Israel?

Israel + the Copts + the Lebanese Christians + the Syrian Christians would make a fair amount of people and would make a formidable force that the Muslims couldn't just run over as they usually do.

The dhimmies of the Middle East should unite in common cause against the Muslims.

Posted by: Suzan at October 27, 2005 4:20 PM

Suzan:
I think your post is a bit naïve. You should read the decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam by Bat Ye’or. The Copts have independently revolted in the first two centuries of Islamic dominance and although lacking in any martial tradition or training, they made many brave and hopeless stands against the Muslims.

Lady, the black panthers have more of a chance seceding from United States with their own state in Harlem. The Israelis are no allies to count on, look what they did to their Christians allies in southern Lebanon, leaving them to Hizbu Allah and the Palestinians.

The price of revolting against the Muslims is not few thousands killed, it is full fledged genocide… Just take a look at Sudan… The South was and still has a majority Christen population with borders with other Christian countries, Ethiopia and Kenya, and look how it turned out. Egypt is a flat desert with only the narrow Nile valley as a habitable zone and moreover it is surrounded by Muslim lands except in the Sinai. No mountains, jungles or any place to shelter. The Copts are disarmed and completely at the mercy of the merciless followers of Allah’s prophet. Their only hope of survival rests in fleeing to the West to escape the annihilation that the Muslim groups promise… I really think that if the Muslims began a full scale genocide of the Copts instead of a death by a thousand cut that they suffer now, some Copt needs to pull a “Mohamed Atta” and destroy the High Dam in Aswan and flood Egypt.

Posted by: have_mercy at October 27, 2005 5:06 PM

Timbo

The Barnabus Fund diligently catalogues the persecution of Christians worldwide.

Some of the gravest persecution is taking place in Indonesia, and in particular the province of Aceh. Yes, the same Aceh that we in the West sent billions of dollars in the aftermath of the Tsunami. I wrote at the time, that despite the tragedy, our help will be taken as a sign of our weakness, and they will have nothing but contempt for us. Moreover they will never feel any gratitude as in their view, the aid has really come from allah and not from the West, and they will use the aid to coerce and blackmail the remaining Christian population.

Well someone is getting it

The Folly of Apology
Americans need to muster the necessary grit to win, by Bruce Thornton

http://victorhanson.com/articles/thornton102605.html

I dont think we are going to get far fighting the Jihad and at the same time not acknowledging that we are at war with islam. And as we are unwilling to fight a total war, and there is no other kind unless one wants to be defeated, it is best we separate from the islamic world.

Posted by: DP111 at October 27, 2005 5:35 PM

have_mercy

You are quite right. Israel left Lebanon and left its Christian allies to the tender mercies of Hizbullah.

And I do think that we have to consider granting refugee status to the Copts in Egypt.

The persecution of the Copts though is the least of it. While the Copts are free and voluble enough to raise voice, the real persecution is going on where no voice of the persecuted is heard. This is in Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and other corners of the islamic world.

I dont think we can live in peace with muslims. Sooner or later, once their numbers are up in the West, they will start the same jihad here, jihad by mob violence. We the West are not going to be an excveption. It is for this reason that I have oft written that an exchange of populations is the only answer. Exchanges of populations is not ethnic cleansing. It is the most sane and humane way stop this madness, and a rush to a catastrophic war that will leave countless dead.

Muslim nations, left to their own devices, unable to export their excess population, an ever deteriorating infrastructure, increasing poverty and diminishing military power, will have no alternative but to reform islam. And even if they do not, they will not be a menace to the safety and security of the rest of the world, for the simple reason that they will not have access to harvest infidel lives.

Harsh as this is, it is the most humane way to progress. What frightens me is that we are moving towards a new world war that is quite unlike previous world wars. This world war will be a civil war ie a global civil war - the very worst type imaginable. Else we are looking forward to a Three Conjecture scenario leading to deaths on an unprecedented scale.

Separation leaves hope for the future for everybody. Islam will collapse quite quickly in historic terms if it is unable to expand (that is after all its main reason), and thus release the 1 billion souls in its enslavement.

Posted by: DP111 at October 27, 2005 5:51 PM

If, on our ecumenist road to peace, we refuse even to consider the possibility that Muslims as a whole might be our permanent enemies, if we decide that even to think such a thought is evil, then we are preventing ourselves from acknowledging something that may, in fact, be true. What then happens if it actually is true?

..

Universalists cannot imagine radically different civilizations residing and flourishing in distinct spheres. They can only imagine a single global system formed by a single set of democratic ideas. A culture permanently hostile to democracy or to America defeats, by its very existence, the universalist idea. The only way to defend the idea from such a recalcitrant culture would be to annihilate it.

..

By contrast, civilizationists accept the fact of civilizational differences and have no fear of alien civilizations—so long as they stay in their own territory. It follows that we don't need to destroy Islam, we just need to contain it within its own sphere so that it can't threaten us.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/readarticle.asp?ID=16802&p=1

Posted by: DP111 at October 27, 2005 6:21 PM

PJS1

An article in Fjordmans site will interest you.

Beyond homesickness: Western wives in Egypt
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/

Posted by: DP111 at October 27, 2005 6:31 PM

C'mon, folks. Demonstrate in front of the Egyptian Embassy and (peacefully) in front of the Islamic Center in Washington DC.

Posted by: Kepha at October 27, 2005 7:45 PM

Wait a minute here, why are only muslims allowed to hold grievances for year, decades, centuries?

TWO YEARS AGO? And they are just getting around to being pissed about it now? They are still mad about the crusades from a thousand years ago while forgetting that it was muslim atrocities which spawned them.

What would these adherents to the 'religion of peace' have to say were the Spanish to hold them accountable for the Moorish invasions?

And T-ham, you are right on the money, these fools are the bravest of the brave while running around in packs and attacking defenseless civilians. In stand up fights they consistently get their azzes handed to them.

Posted by: Condemned Infidel at October 28, 2005 8:37 AM

Condemned Infidel:

Actually, representatives of the Muslim community that was punted out of Andalusia and back to either Algeria or Morocco were very miffed a few years back when the King of Spain refused to offer them the same apology offered to Spanish Jews for the Inquisition. The King's decision was based on the fact that the Jewish population came in peace and lived in peace, where the Muslim population came as invaders with conquest on their minds.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at October 28, 2005 9:26 AM

Now that is interesting dragon and a subtle rebuke if I ever heard one. Now of course some hithero unheard-of terrorist group will use that as an excuse to murder a few dozen Spaniards.

Posted by: Condemned Infidel at October 28, 2005 10:25 AM

CI:

I believe they did that in Madrid a little more than a year ago, and, notwithstanding the Spanish withdrawal from Iraq, terrorist activities continue on Spanish soil, so it would seem they still hold some grudge about something. Hard to say if this is directly related to OBL's inclusion of Al-Andaluse fairly high up on his list of grievances, but...

Posted by: waterdragon52 at October 28, 2005 12:27 PM

Comments KT, ia?
/crickets...

Posted by: Carolyn2 at October 28, 2005 4:04 PM