Dhimmi Watch: Fitzgerald: What we have lost, and stand to lose

October 27, 2005

Fitzgerald: What we have lost, and stand to lose

Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald lists some of the things we have lost already because of this business of Islamic terror, and what we stand to lose in the future in the West if our supine dhimmitude in the face of an increasingly obvious and large-scale cultural challenge continues:

What have we lost because of Islam? A short list:
Security: At every airport, subway station, bus station, at every sports event, at every public lecture, in every office building, at every museum, at every large gathering and many small gatherings all over this country (particularly those that are specifically Christian or Jewish or Hindu, and certainly all those that are devoted to discussing the menace of Islam), there are now security guards, security checks, long waits that use up, at airports alone, billions of man-hours that were never used up in such fashion before. Why? All is because of the threat not of "terrorism" but rather of Muslim terrorism. Measures may also soon be taken to monitor emails, telephone calls and so on, all of which may affect all of us, and none of which would have been necessary in the absence of Muslim terrorist threats which come out of Islam.

Freedom to travel over much of the world: How many of us now realize that it will be difficult or dangerous from now on out to visit all of the sites of classical antiquity that can be found in North Africa, or the Middle East, or in Turkey, because these lands are in the grip of increasingly restive and aggressive Muslims, not all of whom are content merely to take the dollars of Western tourists? Think of how many attacks there have been, prompted in the minds of the perpetrators by the tenets of Islam, the doctrines of Islam, the attitudes of Islam, against Swiss tourists at Luxor (68 stabbed to death, and many decapitated), or tourists elsewhere in Egypt, or at Djerba in Tunisia, or at Marrakech in Morocco. One may well be indifferent to the little created under Islam, but what is now off-limits is the much created before Islam, or despite Islam.

This is not just a matter of tourism, but of cultural patrimony that is not of Islam, but is located in lands ruled by Muslims and hence by Islam. Only the desire for tourist dollars (and in Egypt some vestigial pride, least strong in the most Muslim, in those pyramids and mastabahs)have kept all the relics of the pre-Islamic past in Muslim countries from falling into disrepair and worse, no matter how cherished they are in the mind of the West. And this indifference, or even hostility, toward their own pre-Islamic past that all those falling under Islam are taught to feel, whether they were forced to convert either by outright threat, or gradually brought to Islam by the slow anguish of the dhimmi status, at times endurable and at other times unendurable (and in those times, many did convert to Islam, only in order to end the unendurableness of being a non-Muslim in a Muslim-ruled world, has brought about an attendant impoverishment of their own societies and themselves.
Freedom to think: How many of those born into Islam over the last 1200 years might have, but for Islam, made some kind of mark on the world, something in art, science, moral philosophy? Something, anything. Instead, what we have is pitiful, compared not only to the Western world, but to the civilizations of the East, and of pre-Columbian America. All of North Africa, all of the Middle East and many other places, subdued to Islam, their peoples deprived of many means of artistic expression, and their ability to engage in free and skeptical inquiry permanently dampened.

Freedom of conscience: the right, which took some time to develop in the West, but is permanently forbidden in Islam, to believe or not believe whatever you wish. Apostasy may not always and everywhere be punished by death, but it is certainly punished by death in some places, and the penalty is threatened everywhere. It is often carried out by vigilantes, as in the case of Farag Foda, the Egyptian writer. Think of what happened to Ali Dashti in the Islamic Republic of Iran, or to Taha Hussein in the Sudan, or to that nice Mr. Qambar (Robert Hussein) in Kuwait about six or seven years back (he was not killed, but it was a close thing). And even in the United States, those who wish to leave Islam are often very quiet about it, afraid of social ostracism (from others who have remained Muslim) and worse.

The extraordinary Total Regulation of Life, from what you eat and what you wear to exactly how you wash, makes people into zombies, following rules that often make no sense, that are ludicrous, but must be followed. Shall I give some of the embarrassing details, about the odd number of stones, and so on, or would you prefer that I spared all of us that sort of thing? Just go to any Muslim website where questions are asked as to whether I can do this or can't do that. Why follow these rules? Oh, because Allah Knows Best. Q.E.D. That is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

Then there is the equally extraordinary belief that the Qur'an contains everything, all of science, all of knowledge, absolutely everything, if only we have the wit or understanding to detect it. If there is a surer way to stunt the mental growth of hundreds of millions, I can't imagine what it might be.

Those of us who are not Muslims should thank god we were not -- for we might well have been -- born into Islam. It is no great achievement to have avoided Islam by not being born a Muslim. It is a great achievement, a moral and intellectual achievement, apparently, given how fearsome the consequences, to be born into Islam and then to reject it.

It is a negative achievement, an astounding feat of mental self-immolation, to be born a non-Muslim and then to actually wish to become a Muslim. There are those on their Spiritual Search who simply ran out of places to look, or decided to stop at the next inn or caravanserai, the one with Arabic script and the hubble-bubble pipe, and the calligraphy on the green-colored walls.

But is a hubble-bubble pipe and calligraphy worth those mind-forged manacles in exchange?

Posted by Robert at October 27, 2005 6:58 AM
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Comments
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All this "business" talk reminds me of a conversation I had a few weeks ago with a friend of mine. She was talking about how she had loved visiting Egypt. She is the kind of young girl that goes to church every other sunday (which is now somewhat uncommon), and no doubt she has never heard about the hardships that Christians endure in the land of the Pharaohs. Well, I would personally love to visit Egypt, but I refuse to spend one Euro-cent in a country that discriminates against non-Muslims. I urge all of you to do not only the same, but to inform others not as well informed of your reasons.

Tourism is Egypt's most profitable "harvest". Without western money the whole country will implode.

Posted by: cruzado

at October 27, 2005 7:26 AM

Ever so sligthly Off Topic:

I received a call from a concerned mother yesterday. Her 19 year old daughter is dating a Muslim guy more than 10 years her senior. 'Love' is blooming and she is even thinking of following him into Islam. For loves' sake you see...

He is of course promising the world and has very sweetly said that he doesn't expect it of her!

I gave her a call and she agreed to meet me over the weekend. I have all my arguments lined up of course but have to remember that we are dealing with 'looooooove' (of the blindest kind) here!

Can anybody help me with material that goes beyond argument into testimony. I'm looking stories in which women who were in the same position as her (starry eyed, enchanted by the new culture etc.) tell how it all turned out.

I'll appreciate it if you could post the links here. I shall then print it out to give to her. Let's hope (and pray for those of you who do) that we can save her from what Hugh calls an "... astounding feat of mental self-immolation".

Thanks for you help!

Posted by: PJS1

at October 27, 2005 7:41 AM

'your help' even

Posted by: PJS1

at October 27, 2005 7:41 AM

As has been amply demonstrated, we've also lost a couple of other things:

1) Equal protection under the law

2) Freedom of speech

No, these to pillars of democracy are not totally gone, yet. But, as frogs in the pan with the temperature being slowly increased, our losses in equal protection and freedom of speech are measurable, demonstrable, and real.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 7:47 AM

There is a whole lot of this going on. Ever since 9/11, Muslims in this country have gone out of their way to meet, woo, and win Infidel girls. They must, of course, either be citizens or have green cards and be well on their way to becomin citizens. The relatives vary in their response. Many of them think that any interference is not right; that it would only make things worse or, do not interfere in any way because they convince themselves that there really is no problem (remind you of any of our rulers? or any of our otherwise sane commentators?) with Islam, merely with the perversion of Islam that some (how many?) seem to believe in and practice. It is a difficult situation. One wants to believe that somehow it will all come right in the end. It won't.

I have seen a stolid Republican high school teacher watch as his daughter married a Muslim eager to remain in this country, and the marriage end after a few months when she realized, soon enough, what was going on. He and his wife never dared to interfere; they knew nothing about Islam, but were sure that their daughter would only react badly to anything they might tell her. Another father known to me, not an American, has watched from afare as his daughter, with her green card, was carefully seduced by a "Palestinian" charmer in one of her classes; there are more details here I cannot go into, but what would be obvious to any of us was not obvious to her. She has married and converted to Islam. Her desperate father attended a mosque to try to convince himself that everything was okay, and of course, at that mosque, everything was okay -- everyone was just as kind and soft-spoken and warm-welcoming as they could be. And why not? He is the father of a Muslim girl; he himself has come to see just what Islam is all about. Did you expect them to tell him, to let him know, what is in the Qur'an, the Hadith, and the Sira, or know what will happen to her mind as she adjusts to the Total Explanation and Complete Regulation of Everything, or her children will?

"Leaving Islam" by Ibn Warraq offers the testimony of several dozen people who left Islam, some who had been born into it, others who had converted ("reverted") to it, without knowing much about it. And then there are the many websites-- why not spend a few days reading many of the articles at www.faithfreedom.org, including the many debates that Ali Sina has with various champions of Islam. That's a start. Try answering-islam.org (or .net) as well, and go from there. Inform yourself thoroughly.

Remember the advice in Salinger, from Buddy to Franny Glass: "That's just sex talking." Alas. That particular speechifying can do far more damage than that which, according to Muslims, Shaytan does when he whispers, whispers in a good Muslim's ear.

A horrible situation. Don't give up.

Posted by: Hugh

at October 27, 2005 8:06 AM

Our losses are mounting by the week, nay, by the day! It astounds me that our politicians stand up in front of the public and tell them that all this Muslim immigration is actually enriching our culture. Enriching! In what way, I ask you? As far as I can see, we are only losing out of this; and continue to lose we will.

I, for one, preferred the world we lived in pre-Islam days: when Islam was mainly contained THERE. Before we had been infiltrated.

Posted by: Mark

at October 27, 2005 8:08 AM

PSJ1

This might help.
It's linked from the answeringislam site:

http://www.domini.org/lam/

Posted by: Silvester

at October 27, 2005 8:18 AM

PJS1
Sorry, got your name wrong above. This site also has personal testimonies. Worth a read.

Posted by: Silvester

at October 27, 2005 8:22 AM

Hugh, reading your posts is usually a very tedious task, usually the same thing about how the West has to stick up for Israel, about land of war, land of peace, and how Muslims always feel the need to subdue 'Kafirs', very textbook and unrealistic, I will respond to your post though since you took the time and effort to write it out.

___________________________________________________

Okay, you began with the usual (trains, monitoring calls blah blah), it is clear you blame this all on Islam. It all comes down to this, the vast majority of Muslims practice Islam peacefully, the overwhelming majority of Muslims worldwide have never killed, tortured or beheaded anyone. Do you agree with this?

Do you accept that the religion of Islam can be practised peacefully?

Now I have been to Mosque all my life, I read the same Quran as those that call for murder and other prohibited acts, I read the same books of hadith.
Yet I have yet to commit any crime or any terrorist attack. What is the problem here, the few that commit terroridt attacks are the true Muslims? Well we are told that Muslims must stick to the majority, the Ahlus-Sunnah.

So what’s happening here, how can you possibly blame all these things on Islam? It just doesn't make any sense. None at all.

Instead of trying to isolate the fanatics you wish to attack ALL Muslims. You know this and I know it, you know what I'm saying yet your hatred of the man, Muhammad (saws) is that deep you are seething with hatred and jealousy.

You don't care about the sanctity of life, you couldn't give a damn. You put your own evil desires before everything. This website seems to be a tool to simply use the acts of terrorists to undermine the whole religion of Islam, why?

An attempt to stop the increase in Westerners (particularly women) accepting Islam.

An attempt to stop Muslim learning and benefiting from the West.

An attempt to destroy the vision of an independent Palestinian state.

It all comes down to that, this is all beating around the bush, isn't it?

__________________________________________________

"Freedom to travel over much of the world"

Yeh right! what a load of rubbish.

My family went to Pakistan for a bit this summer, they met many American tourists there. They were treated with respect and dignity. I'm pretty sure they will come back with their heads still in place.

In Europe I have seen American tourists, In Venice I casually chatted to an American, he even gave me his camera so I could take a picture of him. I never once felt the need to murder him and run away with his camera.

__________________________________________________

"Freedom to think -- how many of those born into Islam, over the last 1200 years, might have, but for Islam, made some kind of mark on the world, something in art, science, moral philosophy."

I am a Muslim, I have freedom to think. I have the opportunity to create music, art, poetry. Islam gives me the drive for this.

Please tell me why I can’t do this.

I've heard Rumi is the best selling poet in the US, can you appreciate the beauty of 'Islamic' Art. Can you appreciate the buildings throughout the 'Islamic World'.

Have you ever read books on Sufism and philosophy. You are not in touch with reality, the West is dead spiritually, it is Islam that is filling the void.

Oh yeh, and watch 'What the Ancients did for us - the Islamic World' Great documentary.

I don't think this has effected your life in anyway so I don't think this counts, that is unless you really desire the Islamic World giving you things that could increase the happiness in your life (^_^) (do you like Pakistani food?)

__________________________________________________

"Freedom of conscience -- the right, which took some time to develop in the West, but is permanently forbidden in Islam, to believe or not believe whatever you wish."

Hasn't affected you in anyway.

Next.

________________________________________________

"The indifference, or even hostility, toward their own pre-Islamic past that all those falling under Islam, forced to convert eit....."

Hasn't affected you in anyway.

Next.

_________________________________________________

"The extraordinary Total Regulation of Life, from what you eat, and what you wear, to exactly how you wash (shall I give some of the embarrassing details, about the odd number of stones, and so on, or would you prefer that I spared all of us that sort of thing -- just go to any Muslim website where questions are asked as to whether I can do this or can't do that)-- which makes people into zombies, following rules that often make no sense, that are ludicrous, but must be followed. Why? Oh, because Allah Knows Best. Q.E.D. That is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."

Hasn't affected you in anyway.

Next.

Oh yeh, again, its none of your business. If I wish to have beard and use a miswak because it is the Sunnah, its none of your business. I'm sure all Western citizens have the right to practise their religion freely.

Hugh, I am not embarrassed of my religion. The Quran is here as is the hadith, it can be read by anyone from East to West. I am proud of my religion. I don't need to hide anything.

__________________________________________________

"The equally extraordinary belief that the Qur'an contains everything, all of science, all of knowledge, absolutely everything, if only we have the wit or understanding to detect it. If there is a surer way to stunt the mental growth of hundreds of millions, I can't imagine what it might be."

Hasn't affected you in anyway.

Next.

__________________________________________________

"Shall I go on? No, it's too depressinig and too boring."

I actually found it amusing, if you can, please continue.

I have the opportunity to leave Islam right now, yet I choose to believe. This has no negative consequence for me or those in my community. On the contrary, Islam teaches me to look out for everyone, be a good, honest and productive member of society.

__________________________________________________

"It is a negative achievement, an astounding feat of mental self-immolastion, to be born non-Muslim and then to actualay wish to become a Muslim."

You say it is negative because you don't like Muhammad and Islam. One’s spiritual journey has nothing to do with you. You fail to realise that Islam can cause humans to do good things. This is something I doubt you are willing to admit.

_________________________________________________

"That's enough for now. Everyone can pitch in."

Next.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 8:40 AM

Hugh is correct. I don't know if it is because Saudi prince Waleed has so much stock in Time Warner and other news media or if it's just because the MSM is afraid to call a spade a spade, but the truth is that we are in a war against Islam, not Terrorism, and it is a war Mohammed declared on the rest of the non-Muslim world 1400 years ago through his Quran. Terrorism is just a means Muslims use to wage war against Western civilization. Terrorism does not have a manifesto, a country, a flag or a face. Islam does. It's time we realized who the real enemy is. The best defense against Islam is to be firmly grounded in the Christian faith, then you can counter the Muslim lies when attacked by them.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 27, 2005 8:45 AM

As a Muslim you have a problem: the Quran says Jesus is not the son of God because "Allah has no sons." Jesus called God His Father numerous times in the New Testament in front of witnesses. The Quran says Jesus did not die on the cross. Jesus predicted His death and resurrection. So either Jesus is a false prophet and a liar or the quran is wrong. If the Quran is wrong, then it cannot be the word of God, which would mean that anyone following it is following a false God.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 27, 2005 8:54 AM

ia786: You fail to realise that Islam can cause humans to do good things. This is something I doubt you are willing to admit.

You fail to realise that Islam has caused humans to do terrible, hurrendous things. This is something I doubt you are willing to admit. Posted by: Shy Guy

at October 27, 2005 9:04 AM

Hugh, every war has casualties, and every casualty is some mother's or fathrer's child. My sympathies and condolences to your friends and their children. Raise up your children correctly, teach them the word of God in the Bible and they will be able to withstand the lies in the Quran.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 27, 2005 9:07 AM

"Islam is simply more of a problem than any other "foreign" religions. And Muslims hide behind anti-racism to avoid this fact."

Explain....

I am a Muslim yet I have Sikh friends. We get on fine and do the same things, we share the same interests.

I am no problem to anyone, I am not a burden of British society. I don't need special attention or anything like that. ~ Ia, from a previous thread.

My question to you, If I may: If the Whahhabist view of islam takes hold, do you feel you will still be considered a muslim? Or would they see you as an Apostate?

Posted by: Gary

at October 27, 2005 9:07 AM

PJS1

You could tell her about the atrocities Mohammad engaged in. Slavery, genocide of Jews (eg. young jewish boys deemed guilty of fighting against the prophet just because they had just reached puberty...quote Mohammads pleasure and delight over the declared execution of these young boys/innocents and their fahters, and the selling of their women realitives into slavery. I forget the saying but Mohammad was exstatic over it all), the torture of jews to extract loot, Mohammads murder of a poetesss who was critical of Mohammads murder of another victim. Remember to remind everyone of Mohamaads delight when he heard of her murder and the murder of her extremely young children who were with her. Maybe you could then argue what does she prefer herself and her potential children to follow? Mohammad and his atrocities (as a moral guide) or someone like Buddha or Jesus who instead of wanting to butcher innocent people prefered at all times to promote total non violence and (in Jesus's case) sacrifice oneself out of pure love to everyone including his enemies? Jesus loved his enemies, Mohammad tortured, mutilated and butchered anyone for nothing more than criticising his crulety toward others.

After all of this then maybe you could state that if this muslim man trully loves her then why does she have to be the one to convert to the preachings of such a horrible man like Mohammad. Why can't he be the one to renounces Mohammds atrocities and teachings that glorify such beahviour and convert to a faith that abhores such behaviour (e.g. buddhism, christianity etc). Will he renounce these atroctities? If not why not. Doesn't he love her enough to do even that. It is a very small thing for a westerner to criticise such atrocities. Can't he show his true colours/quality by renouncing such barbarism? If he doesn't have these qualities it should be easy for somoeone to see that this muslim guy wants to take more than he gives. If he takes more than he gives then he can't trully love her. A man who loves a woman will give his all. A good man would be happy to convert to a better relgion for his future wifes sake (no devine sanction of wife beatings and making her cover up while he doesn't) and to ensure the good moral upbringing of ones children.

Just my two cents. If you do take this battle on remember to have the religious documentation at hand to show you are not b.s. when criticising Mohammad. Have the evidence with you. The more primary the religious text (e.g. Koran and major hadiths)the better.

Posted by: ashlee72

at October 27, 2005 9:14 AM

In the end, extremists set the agenda for "peace-loving" Muslims, for no Muslim could bear up to the accusation of being un-Islamic and face being labeled an apostate. As in all cultures, peer pressure is often more potent than scruples, and Islam has had more than a thousand years of creating the perfect system of applying peer pressure to persuade less than stringent Muslims to toe the line and do horrible things to people in the name of Islam.

Posted by: epg

at October 27, 2005 9:27 AM

>...the overwhelming majority of Muslims worldwide have never killed...

From a post above.

The "overwhelming majority" of Germans, of French, of Dutch, in occupied Europe did not participate in the holocaust, but that does not exculpate from guilt those in the occupied territories who stood by and watched doing nothing as their jewish neighbours were rounded up.

Where are the condemnations of acts of terror and murder from that overwhelming majority? Where are the fatwa's from the learned shakes denouncing zawahiri, bin laden, and zarqawi as heretic non-muslims? Did I miss those meetings, those press releases? Or do they really not exist?

Lets consider a corollary: I set up a terrorist network, lets say, "Soldiers of Christ". Our aim is to eliminate those idol worshipping buddhists who cause so much grievance. Every act of murder we accompany with statements to the effect that we did this in the name of Christ. How long, do you think the Pope, the Archbishop of Cantebury, hell, even Jimmy Swaggert and Pat Robertson, will remain silent about our actions?

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 9:30 AM

Damn good essay Hugh.

If I'm critical of you sometimes (and God knows I am), I want to acknowledge that when you churn out something like this, I think you're speaking for everyone here, but in a style and clarity that only you are capable of.

Posted by: Cornelius

at October 27, 2005 9:41 AM

Alot of this stuff was discussed in this thread:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008714.php

____________________________________________________

"As a Muslim you have a problem: the Quran says Jesus is not the son of God because "Allah has no sons." Jesus called God His Father numerous times in the New Testament in front of witnesses. The Quran says Jesus did not die on the cross. Jesus predicted His death and resurrection. So either Jesus is a false prophet and a liar or the quran is wrong. If the Quran is wrong, then it cannot be the word of God, which would mean that anyone following it is following a false God."

God has no sons, no partners or anything like that, these are blasphemous lies.

Tell me one Prophet that said God had a son, tell me one. Moses, no, Abraham, no etc. Just tell me one. You would have thought God would have told his Prophets he had a son.

Jesus was a Prophet of God, he did not die, he was raised to heaven, he never said he was the Son of God, he never said that he was God (Trinity).

The Trinity is a fairytale.

"The Jews also reject the trinity, in addition to the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians never know about trinity doctrine at all. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet of God and against the trinity.

Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus (peace be upon him) as one in three, as what been report by the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops."

Moreover, the 'Socinianism', the 17th-century Christian also rejects such traditional doctrines as the Trinity and original sin, the founder is Socinus, and his Latinized name of Lelio Francesco Maria Sozzini (1525-1562), the Italian Protestant theologian.

Johannes Greber (1874) a former of Catholic priest in his book 'The Communication with the Spirit World of God' in page 371 was written, "As you see, the doctrine of a triune Godhead is not only contrary to common sense, but is entirely unsupported by the Scriptures". So another priest who was deny the trinity.

A theologians, Edouard Schillebeeckx of the Netherlands in 1979 was writings some article that rejects the doctrine of the Trinity. This caused concern to the Vatican."

Those before us that followed their respected Prophets believed in One God, they believed in the last day, they did righteous deeds. Never did these believers believe that God had a son. Never.

__________________________________________________

"So either Jesus is a false prophet and a liar or the quran is wrong. If the Quran is wrong, then it cannot be the word of God, which would mean that anyone following it is following a false God."

Wrong.

Jesus is a Prophet, he is amongst the five greatest ones according to our traditions (Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad). Jesus never died, he is in heaven and will return to Earth soon (Inshallah).

The God you worship doesn't exist. The God you worship was never worshipped by previous Prophets, it is a fairytale. Please, I hope you see that, God is one.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:07 AM

"You fail to realise that Islam has caused humans to do terrible, hurrendous things. This is something I doubt you are willing to admit."

I do realise that Islam has caused a minority to do terrible things. I admit that, I too hope you are willing to admit there are many that follow the teachings of Islam yet have done many wonderful things for Mankind.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:09 AM

"Hugh, every war has casualties, and every casualty is some mother's or fathrer's child. My sympathies and condolences to your friends and their children. Raise up your children correctly, teach them the word of God in the Bible and they will be able to withstand the lies in the Quran."

Hey mate, I don't think this is the right place to preach and hope people will believe your religion.

Don't forget, there are Jews here too.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:11 AM

"I too hope you are willing to admit there are many that follow the teachings of Islam yet have done many wonderful things for Mankind."
-- from a posting above

What?

Posted by: Hugh

at October 27, 2005 10:12 AM

PJS1:

1) Ask her why, under traditional Sharia law, Muslim men are allowed to marry "some types" of non-Muslims but Muslim women aren't allowed to marry non-Muslims at all? Here is the relevant Sharia law clause, a link to it and an explanatory article regarding Sharia:

9. A Muslim man cannot marry a woman who is a Zoroastrian, an idol worshipper, an apostate from Islam or a woman with one parent who is Jewish or Christian, with the other being Zoroastrian; a Muslim woman cannot marry anyone but a Muslim

p. 529

m6.7 It is unlawful for a Muslim man to marry:

(1) a Zoroastrian woman;

(2) an idol worshipper;

(3) an apostate from Islam (murtadd, def: o8);

(4) or a woman with one parent who is Jewish or Christian, while the other is Zoroastrian.

(5) (N: It is not lawful or valid for a Muslim man to be married to any woman who is not either a Muslim, Christian, or Jew; nor is it lawful or valid for a Muslim woman to be married to anyone besides a Muslim.)

http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/21475

2)Get her to read this website:

http://www.domini.org/lam/

3) Ask her to think about why the Vatican would come out with the following statement (reaching beyond the obvious ideological concerns):

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001944.php

Good luck. What we are faced with in Islam is a very dangerous religious cult that seeks to achieve world dominance. They are very much like the Borg on the Star Trek television show. They take the individual free mind, enslave it and bend it to working for the collective Ummah.

And then there are people like ia786 who have come to love their chains. Take a look at the definition of Stockholm Syndrome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Islam is the most dangerous form of mind control that I have ever seen. I have never seen anything like the brainwashing that occurs with Muslims. Take a look at this definition of a cult:

http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/faq.html#cult

Posted by: Mentat

at October 27, 2005 10:12 AM

"My question to you, If I may: If the Whahhabist view of islam takes hold, do you feel you will still be considered a muslim? Or would they see you as an Apostate?"

I fear no one. The Wahabist sect can and never will take hold. We have faith, The house of Saud will fall and the Sunnis will reclaim Arabia. It is written.

Wahabism is a lie.

If you have time, please read:

THE DOCTRINE OF AHL AL-SUNNA (Sunni) VERSUS THE "SALAFI" (Wahabi) MOVEMENT

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/fajr.html

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:15 AM

____________________________________________________

"Where are the condemnations of acts of terror and murder from that overwhelming majority? Where are the fatwa's from the learned shakes denouncing zawahiri, bin laden, and zarqawi as heretic non-muslims? Did I miss those meetings, those press releases? Or do they really not exist?"

You obviously live on another planet, its okay, if you want to stay there, go for it. Good luck.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:20 AM

>...Jesus was a Prophet of God, he did not die, he was raised to heaven, he never said he was the Son of God, he never said that he was God (Trinity).

The Trinity is a fairytale.

From a poster above. For the philosophically minded, there is an interesting exposition on the trinity in islam, and other related issues in this article

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 10:22 AM

>...You obviously live on another planet, its okay, if you want to stay there, go for it. Good luck.
From a poster above. But still, no evidence of those fatwa's. Or of any credible islamic disavowal of murder of civilians. But hey! Then I realised - I checked on ask-imam, in case they had covered this very subject, and hey, they do! Trouble is, that not exactly a ringing condemnation is it?

And still, no evidence of all those wonderful things which islam has given the world.

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 10:30 AM

"Do you accept that the religion of Islam can be practised peacefully?"
-- posted by ia786

No.

First, Islam is not a religion, it is an national ideology that calls its followers to aggression, and where appropriate to armed warfare.

Second, to accept God's commandments as set forth in the Koran is to accept and condone violence in all the forms that God commands: hatred of all non-Muslims, discrimination, sexism, theft, slavery, treason, murder, and so on.

Third, the Sunnah brings into the practice additional commandments such as lying, kidnapping, rape, sex slavery, pedophilia, torture, and mass murder.

There is nothing peaceful about mentally practicing these awful things.

Indeed, it is my belief that by American law practicing Islam is a crime, and where Islam is taught to children the crime of child abuse. Hopefully, after the Big One our laws will be clarified to explicitly ban Islam and expulse Moslems.

Only a Moslem would go around beating the drum and bragging that he hasn't murdered anyone. What he doesn't say is that he condones it where it advances Sharia conquest.

There are only three kinds of Moslems:

1) Good active Moslems (Jihadists)

2) Good inactive Moslems (those who tacitly and/or quietly support their Jihadist brothers)

3) Bad Moslems (apostates)

It is an act of unmitigated irresponsibility to practice Islam. And it is childish in the most horrifying ways.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 10:33 AM

"From a poster above. For the philosophically minded, there is an interesting exposition on the trinity in islam, and other related issues in this article"

Yeh whatever, tell me, do you completely reject the teachings of Moses, Noah, Abraham etc. These are Prophets of God.

When did they ever say God had a Son?

I don't believe in fairy tales.

I will post this bit again.

""The Jews also reject the trinity, in addition to the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians never know about trinity doctrine at all. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet of God and against the trinity.

A theologians, Edouard Schillebeeckx of the Netherlands in 1979 was writings some article that rejects the doctrine of the Trinity. This caused concern to the Vatican."

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:34 AM

"Do you accept that the religion of Islam can be practised peacefully?"
-- posted by ia786

___________________________________________________

No.

First, Islam is not a religion, it is an national ideolo......

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

___________________________________________________

What a load of rubbish.

I read the same Quran as Muslim extremists. Yet I have never killed anyone, I have gone to Mosque for many, many years, I have yet to be told to kill and steal from Non-Muslims.

I follow Islam, yet I do it peacefully, the way it is supposed to be done.

You are living on another planet.

Good luck with your crusade.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:38 AM

From a poster above.

>...I am a Muslim, I have freedom to think. I have the opportunity to create music, art, poetry. Islam gives me the drive for this.

Not according to mufti ebrahim desai, he hasnt.

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 10:41 AM

">...You obviously live on another planet, its okay, if you want to stay there, go for it. Good luck.
From a poster above. But still, no evidence of those fatwa's. Or of any credible islamic disavowal of murder of civilians. But hey! Then I realised - I checked on ask-imam, in case they had covered this very subject, and hey, they do! Trouble is, that not exactly a ringing condemnation is it?

And still, no evidence of all those wonderful things which islam has given the world."

Yeh, okay.

I recommend you watch What the Ancients did for Us - The Islamic World, also Empire of Faith, an American documentary.

Watch these things then declare we live in a beautiful world, go for a walk then bathe yourself in rose petals while singing All things Bright and Beautiful!!! God is Great!!!

Medicine, Philosophy, Science, Astronomy, Importance of seeking knowledge, Clothing, Weaponry, Poetry, Art, Trade, Gardens, Fountains, Palaces etc.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:46 AM

ia786: " The Trinity is a fairy tale "
You are clearly wrong here. The understanding of the Trinity is the foundation for Christian theology about the true nature of God in His completeness. Christians firmly believe that the trinity is a divinely inspired understanding of Jesus's relationship to God the Father and His Holy Spirit.

You quote Johannes Greber and Edward Schillebeckx and use their heretical Christian writings about the Trinity to validate your misguided rejection of the Trinity. Remember that these two heretical Christian theologians were determined to have an incorrect understanding about the Trinity by the authoritative church in Rome. Please don't use them to be authoritative for your misguided attacks about the Trinity.

Muslims have a false understanding of Jesus. Sadly, the Arian and Nestorian Christians who lived in the Middle East when Muhammad was alive were heretical Christians who rejected the Jesus' divine nature. Thus, Muslims developed a false view about Jesus from herteical Christians, who held a flawed understanding about Jesus' true nature. Many of the saying about Jesus in the Koran comes directly from texts that were rejected because they were viewed as not divinely inspired.

Muhammad was a pedophile, a polygamist, and a warrior who advocated for the killing of infidels. He was no prophet of God. It amazes me that Muslims actually believe that he was a holy prophet of God when he lived an immoral life.

Posted by: Johnathan

at October 27, 2005 10:48 AM

"From a poster above.

>...I am a Muslim, I have freedom to think. I have the opportunity to create music, art, poetry. Islam gives me the drive for this.

Not according to mufti ebrahim desai, he hasnt."

ha ha ha, Have you even read that link!!!

Please show me where Islam prohibits me from being a creative human being, please do!!! Infact, Islam encourages this! (being innovative and creative)

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 10:49 AM

What the taliban did for us - and why destroying anything un-islamic is good thing

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 10:50 AM

"I follow Islam, yet I do it peacefully, the way it is supposed to be done."
-- posted by ia786

When you read the Koran you actively condone violence. You have read the Koran and Hadiths, haven't you?

In case you have not, this wonderful web site can point you to thousands of examples where murder and mayhem is rightfully justify by Jihadists by pointing to the Koran and Sunnah.
_____________________________________

"You are living on another planet."
-- posted by ia786

I'm not the one willfully denying patent reality. You are.

_____________________________________

Good luck with your crusade."
-- posted by ia786

My crusade?! Moslems, by self-pronouncement, are the ones committed to conquering the world.

Me, I just wish all Moslems would go back home to the rock farms from whence they sprang. I just wanna be left alone, and that's not gonna happen so long as we have the presence of Moslems disgracing this the greatest nation on earth.

Getting rid of Moslems would not only return us to peace and civilization, it'd lighten up the welfare rolls to boot, and also slow the rate of population growth.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 10:50 AM

to PJS1--have that girl look at a good movie called:"Not Without My Daughter". Woman marries an ahab MD. and he takes her and her daughter back to Iran--or some other cursed place in the mid-east. True story-good eye-opener. Another one:"Human Cargo". Another one: "Midnight Express". All of these will teach her the true nature of islam.

Posted by: capner

at October 27, 2005 10:51 AM

As I long ago decided not to waste any more of my time reading the taqqiya and the twisted illogic of the muslim troll, I had stopped following that thread. I must say, however, that the troll finally contributed something positive in getting us to assess what we have already lost. We spend so much time fearing what we have yet to lose, it was a well-spent exercise. Yet another fine post, Hugh.

Posted by: Infidel33

at October 27, 2005 10:52 AM

From a poster above>
>...ha ha ha, Have you even read that link!!!

Yes. It clearly puts forward the position that television, and radio are haraam ("continue advising him with the harms of TV and music"). So no music, no drama, and certainly no documentaries about what the Taliban did for us.

And Ul-lah knows best...

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 10:53 AM

From a poster above
>... Islam encourages this! (being innovative and creative)

Well, no. Otherwise we would have no concept of Bid'ah, would we?

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 10:57 AM

ia786--the only reason you behave the way that you do right now is because your kind are not yet a majority. If you become the majority, then your true colors will come out.
You are not fooling anyone here.
So stop posting.

Posted by: capner

at October 27, 2005 11:36 AM

Thomas, you are very strange.

"Yes. It clearly puts forward the position that television, and radio are haraam ("continue advising him with the harms of TV and music"). So no music, no drama, and certainly no documentaries about what the Taliban did for us.

And Ul-lah knows best..."

So television and music are haram for Muslims. I don't see how this affects you in anyway. That is, unless you feel sorry for Muslims missing out on TV.

But you should know Muslims do watch TV, Muslims do listen to music, infact, there are such things as Channels run by Muslims (Yes!!) there is even music made my Muslims (Yes!!)

Ha ha, you are so out of touch with reality, its funny.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 11:39 AM

"From a poster above
>... Islam encourages this! (being innovative and creative)

Well, no. Otherwise we would have no concept of Bid'ah, would we?"

Have you even read that link?

Your understanding (lack of) of Islam is laughable.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 11:42 AM

“"ia786--the only reason you behave the way that you do right now is because your kind are not yet a majority. If you become the majority, then your true colors will come out.
You are not fooling anyone here.
So stop posting."

What is that supposed to mean?

Are you referring to Asians?

Islam is not limited to Asians, Islam is followed by all people. I'm sure you agree that people have the right to follow any religion they want.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 11:44 AM

I'm still waiting.

This is for everyone here.

Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran.

Name me one thing.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 11:47 AM

Islam is not limited to Asians, Islam is followed by all people

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 11:44 AM

No it isn't, little man.

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 11:48 AM

In Islamic law women have less rights than men and homosexuals and apostates (from Islam) can be killed. Its quite simple; Islam is a fascistic disgrace that has no place in the modern world. It should be made illegal.

Posted by: pausanias

at October 27, 2005 11:52 AM

From an e-mail I just received from a friend who's man is over in Iraq.

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG,
OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
AND TO THE REPUBLIC,
FOR WHICH IT STANDS,
ONE NATION UNDER GOD,
INDIVISIBLE,
WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!

It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!

And for you Muslim clowns who dream of taking over the world with your sticks and stones, if you want to live in Western nations, then live like Westerners, your fake beliefs are waring thin on the tolerant Western society.

You're the biggest whiney crybabies the world has ever known. Piggy banks offend you now? Gimme your address and I've have a 10 pound ham delivered to you for Christmas.

Yes, Christmas, Not Rama-dama-ding dong, not Eid, but Christmas.

You've proven to be nothing but excuse makers for yourselves and your backward ass way of doing things. Your actions are not justified, no matter what swims around in those barbaric brains of yours.

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 11:54 AM

IA: "Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran."

Lesee, two funerals and the NYC skyline...

Posted by: Cthulhu

at October 27, 2005 12:02 PM

"Those of us who are not Muslims should thank God we were not -- for we might well have been -- born into Islam. It is no great achievement to have avoided Islam by not being born a Muslim."

Not a muslim but for the grace of God...

Posted by: 3812Michelle

at October 27, 2005 12:02 PM

ia786, you said "God has no sons, no partners or anything like that, these are blasphemous lies." Do you base this belief on your own personal study of the bible or do you believe it simply because the Quaran teaches it? Mohammed never saw Jesus. The only reliable first hand eye witness accounts of what Jesus said are in the bible. You also said you are free to think and have your own opinions, correct? The Quran says "the sun sets in a muddy pool". Do you believe that? Is it scientifically correct? Wouldn't God know that the sun doesn't really "set"?
You also said "Tell me one Prophet that said God had a son.." Jesus called God His Father,and you call Jesus a prophet so there you have it. You cannot accept Jesus as a prophet and reject what He said. God's standard for a prophet is perfection and is given in Deuteronomy 18:20-22. For Jesus to be a true prophet of God, all his prophecies have to be true. You call Mohammed a prophet, yet there is no prophecy in the Quran.
Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (John 8:57-59) Jesus said He is eternal, that He existed before Abraham. Only God is eternal.
Jesus said "I and my Father are One." (John 10:30)
Jesus said "I am the (only) Way, the (only) Truth, and the (only) Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Muslims pray to be kept on the straight path, i.e., the Way, right? Jesus is this Way. Jesus also said "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus told Lazaarus' sister, Martha, ""I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
Martha called Jesus the Son of God, and He did not correct her, he accepted it.
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32) Jesus prophecied His own death and resurrection. If this is a false prophecy, then Jesus is a false prophet.
Even though you consider yourself a good and peaceful Muslim you cannot speak out against those Muslims who quote the Quran to commit acts of terrorism, murder and violence, because in order to do so you must argue against those very verses in the Quran the murders quote and that would make you an apostate. If you cannot condemn those who murder in the name of your religion, then you are a silent accomplice to the acts the commit.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 27, 2005 12:10 PM

Mohammed never saw Jesus
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at October 27, 2005 12:10 PM

The crazy man Muhammad never saw God either. This sham is gettin' old. It's played, and it's beat.

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 12:14 PM

We still have no answer - Islam is peaceful and tolerant, and has contributed so much to world culture, such as exploding the Bamiyan budhha's. Absolutely spot on, says the imam.

We still havent seen a condemnation of usama bin laden, ayman al-zawahiri or al-zarqawi, from any reputable shake in any of the great centre's of islamic learning.

We dont see Pakistani, Saudi, Yemeni, Egyptian citizens pouring onto the streets to protest about what is being done in the name of their peaceful and tolerant religion. Surely, the millions of Egyptians, who just want to live in peace and harmony with their coptic christian fellows, would be up in arms about the murder of a coptic nun in the name of islam? Oh, I forgot - they were insulting islam, so they deserved it - right?

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 12:14 PM

ia786:

"I'm sure you agree that people have the right to follow any religion they want."

You mean, people actually have the right to leave islam? STOP THE PRESSES!

What are you smoking, dude? Your prophet is rolling over in hell, I mean, his grave!

Wasn't it mo himself who said that leaving islam would never be acceptable and that anyone who did should be killed? Okay, jihadwatchers, help me out with the sura.

RELAX, BR549. We know you mean that everyone should practice islam. I'm just helping you out with your facts.

Posted by: 3812Michelle

at October 27, 2005 12:15 PM

I'm still waiting.

This is for everyone here.

Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran.

Name me one thing.

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 11:47 AM

Thanks to Quran's call to murder Jews and Christians, Daniel Pearl, a Jew, was butchered, 'on camera' in Karachi, Pakistan.

Thank you!

Posted by: Alert

at October 27, 2005 12:18 PM

Bohemond_1069:

Great points. T'would be a source of unending mirth, were it not so utterly sad, that Islamic criticism of Christianity, is based on reference to their own texts, not those of Christianity.

If one wanted to criticise Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, one would have thought that reference to original source materials would be a good starting point - not 'X is bad, because of what Y said in book Z'. Try using the original sources.

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 12:19 PM

From a poster above>
>...Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran.

Very well. A close friend of mine fell in love with a moslem girl. Because in islam this is strictly forbidden, they now have to live, effectively, secret lives, because there's just no telling how her family will react to the knowledge that she lives with a mushrik. Would they be understanding? Would they smile and say, 'ah well, they are in love, and god is love'? Or would they react the way described in the previous article on this site.

I have several other stories very similar to this one, of people who dared to act in ways not allowed by our good friend ibrahim desai, in ways which, while causing no one any harm, are proscribed by the ignoble kran.

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 12:25 PM

Thanks you for the wonderful essay, Hugh.
Because of people like you more and more Danes are waking up to the true nature of the Mohammedan Cult and realize that the awful damage it has caused our beautiful, peaceful country could have been avoided had we been prepared to trust the testimony of our own eyes instead of the PC taqyiah.
Although we all saw the wretchedness, homicidal lunacy and spiritual and intellectual shoddiness of the Mohamedan Cult we - hypnotized by the PC mantra of equality of religions and civilizations - dismissed the macabre legacy of the Cult as something transitory and emendable.

Yesterday we thought that Islam is sick. Today we know Islam IS SICKNESS. I think that represents a great progress and a departure point to start doing something more meaningful than trying to maintain a "dialogue" with mohammedanism. Really, why not a dialogue with AIDS virus?

On behalf of so many of my Danish countrymen: thank you Hugh for your contribution to our enlightenment

Thomas h.

Posted by: thomas. h

at October 27, 2005 12:29 PM

Where there's Ibrahim Adolph 786, there's King Tolerance.

How convenient. Perhaps IA786 is King Tolerance's alter ego, like Allah is Muhammad's alter ego.

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 12:34 PM

ia786: I'm still waiting.
This is for everyone here.

Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran.

Name me one thing.

You're right!

I cannot name one thing

Posted by: Shy Guy

at October 27, 2005 12:37 PM

>...forthright and far more polite

>...You obviously live on another planet

>...Ha ha, you are so out of touch with reality, its funny.

>...Hey mate, I don't think this is the right place to preach and hope people will believe your religion.

>...Yeh right! what a load of rubbish.

Politeness?

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 27, 2005 12:39 PM

"Islam is not limited to Asians, Islam is followed by all people

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 11:44 AM

No it isn't, little man."

You need to visit DW more often.

Islam is not limited to Brown people mate. That is why criticising Islam cannot be called racism, Islam is not a race!

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 12:40 PM

"It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!"

Makes sense. If 86% believe in God then there should be no problem.

"And for you Muslim clowns who dream of taking over the world with your sticks and stones, if you want to live in Western nations, then live like Westerners, your fake beliefs are waring thin on the tolerant Western society."

I don't dream of taking over the World.

I live in the UK and I live like a Westerner, I don't force my views on anyone. I practise Islam peacefully. This is not about fake beliefs, you could think the Quran was fake yet if I believe it is from God, its got nothing to do with you.

"You're the biggest whiney crybabies the world has ever known. Piggy banks offend you now? Gimme your address and I've have a 10 pound ham delivered to you for Christmas."

No. You're generalising.

Piggybanks don't offend me, Christmas doesn't offend me, I oppose banning piggy banks as would most Muslims, its just stupid politicans making a fuss.

"Yes, Christmas, Not Rama-dama-ding dong, not Eid, but Christmas.

You've proven to be nothing but excuse makers for yourselves and your backward ass way of doing things. Your actions are not justified, no matter what swims around in those barbaric brains of yours."

............Yeh.....…..(?!?!?)………and a rama-dama-ding dong Christmas to you too.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 12:45 PM

No, IA, you said Islam is followed by all people.

Like hell it is. You need to learn how to phrase your words so that they make sense to whoever reads them.

And did you say that I need to visit DW more often?

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 12:47 PM

"IA: "Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran."

Lesee, two funerals and the NYC skyline..."

We've been though that.

Read what I wrote earlier.

If you insist on posting that, please tell me how such acts are encouraged in Islam, show proof, that is verses from the Quran backed by hadith and interpreted by a Classical Scholar.

Go on, I'm waiting.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 12:47 PM

"Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran.

Name me one thing."
-- posted by ia786

Ok, I'll bite.

The Jihadist mass murder of about 2,700 innocent people when Mohammed Atta and his crews (classification: Category 1, good active Moslems) brought down the Twin Towers in New York City, the birthplace of capitalism, on September 11, 2001.

That was a negative experience for me, because I knew some who were in that building on that day. Also, this Koran-encouraged Good Active Moslem Jihadist action made me feel less secure, less free, less optimistic, and financially poorer.

Here are some Koranic encouragements:

**************************

2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims)..."

3:150 “Soon We shall strike terror into the hearts of the Infidels, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be in the Fire!”

8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

9:111 “Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise). They fight in Allah’s Cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed.”

33:22 “Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle.”

33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”

33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

47:4 “So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

**************************

I could go on, but that's plenty of bloodlust-proof, don't you agree, ia786?

Btw, mighty clever of you to not incude in your challenge the Hadiths, Ishaq, or Tabari. Combine those sacralized Holy Islamic Scriptures with the Most Holy Koran and you have the perfect picture of animalism, the subhuman. The Good Moslem.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 12:50 PM

ia786, it would be interesting to hear you deny or refute the quotes from the Quran that Chaz MarteL 732 listed above, or at least tell us how they do not apply to teh Muslims today. But since as a Muslim you believe the Quran to be eternally valid, if you do deny those quotes or say you don't agree with them you would make yourself an apostate. A bit of a dilemma for a peaceful Muslim, is it not? BTW, still waiting for a reply to my post re: Jesus.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 27, 2005 1:03 PM

And by the way, IA....What's up with you sissies whining about piggy banks?

Who do you mooks think you are? If Muslims are "offended" by Western society, then why don't they live somewhere else. You know, whichever of you Muslimites are screaming about being offended by pictures of, statues of, and ceramic banks that resemble pigs, you're just making bigger fools of yourselves.

If you want to see Islamic contributions to the world, all you have to do is look at how they turned the Gaza Strip into just another Palestinian shit heap after the Israelis withdrew.

You're a load intolerant, brainwashed, robotic, disgraceful hypocrites.

Sissies who have skin about as thick as crate paper, always crying about everything while playing false victim.

"Mr. Kofi, Mr. Kofi Annan, we know we kill Israelis with homicide bombers, and lob rockets over into Israeli towns, but the Israelis have broken the "peace roadmap" by firing back at us."

"We start the trouble, and know that we don't deserve any of the land that Israel took when they kicked the Arab's asses in the 1967 war," a war that Egypt started, but if we're not unhappy and breaking things, well, then what else is there to live for?"

"We know there's no such thing as a Palestinian, Mr. Kofi, but since we are jobless, we have to use something for an excuse to kill the infidels."

"Please, Mr. Kofi, head of UN, please help us, we are the victims of violent oppression. Now the Israelis are building a wall to keep us out, and we need you to tell them to stop, because we need to pretend we have to go through Israel in order to get to the West Bank from Gaza, so we can plan to kill more innocent baby Jews with our bomb belts".

"Please Mr. Kofi, tell the Israelis that they need to stop building that big wall so that we can kill kill kill the unbelievers".

IA, do the "Palestinians" have any clue as to just how fast Israel could obliterate them and send them to Allah early?

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 1:10 PM

Oh King, please shut your cake hole. No one's angry here, I just enjoy calling a jackass a jackass. OK, jackass?

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 1:20 PM

"You also said "Tell me one Prophet that said God had a son.." Jesus called God His Father,and you call Jesus a prophet so there you have it. You cannot accept Jesus as a prophet and reject what He said."

I can. I accept Jesus as a Prophet, born from the Virgin Mary. Yet I don't believe he was the Son of God. According to our traditions he was given the power to bring the dead back to life, cure the blind etc. Through God’s Will. God has let His Prophets perform many miracles.

Understand?

I accept every thing and every word of his because he is a Prophet of God, they are sinless and they are a light to Mankind.

However I reject the concept of the trinity completely, the earlier Christians never believed he was the Son of God.

___________________________________________________

"Even though you consider yourself a good and peaceful Muslim you cannot speak out against those Muslims who quote the Quran to commit acts of terrorism, murder and violence, because in order to do so you must argue against those very verses in the Quran the murders quote and that would make you an apostate. If you cannot condemn those who murder in the name of your religion, then you are a silent accomplice to the acts the commit."

I can. I have, and will continue.

People like you wish to give fanatics ground to stand on. To you, I say bring it.

I condemn all terrorism, as a good Muslim, I want tolerance and peace, as a good Muslim.

You tell me anywhere, where terrorism is encouraged in Islam, through the classical Sunni approach. Go on. You haven't got anything!

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 1:23 PM

And the Israeli's don't because they are the most civilised and restrained people on the planet. If the Arab world had the military strength that Israel had then Israel would be a smoking ruin and all its people in mass graves.

Posted by: Daffersd

at October 27, 2005 1:27 PM

"And by the way, IA....What's up with you sissies whining about piggy banks?"

'We' never complained about piggy banks, its what we call political correctness going way too far.

"Who do you mooks think you are? If Muslims are "offended" by Western society, then why don't they live somewhere else. You know, whichever of you Muslimites are screaming about being offended by pictures of, statues of, and ceramic banks that resemble pigs, you're just making bigger fools of yourselves."

I am not offended by Western society, If I was, you are right I shouldn't even be here. But I like the West and respect the West. I am Western raised by the way.

"If you want to see Islamic contributions to the world, all you have to do is look at how they turned the Gaza Strip into just another Palestinian shit heap after the Israelis withdrew."

No, you are wrong. Re-read my earlier post.

"You're a load intolerant, brainwashed, robotic, disgraceful hypocrites."

Intolerant? Brainwashed? robotic?

mmmmmm......

_________________________________________________

""Mr. Kofi, Mr. Kofi Annan, we know we kill Israelis with homicide bombers, and lob rockets over into Israeli towns, but the Israelis have broken the "peace roadmap" by firing back at us."

I'll admit I don't know much about the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis but I agree that the Palestinian have the right to a state next to Israel.

I oppose the terrorist attacks committed by the Palestinian militants, I think you should know that.

"IA, do the "Palestinians" have any clue as to just how fast Israel could obliterate them and send them to Allah early?"

I think they do. Everyone knows that Israel has nukes and all that, they get Billions in military aid ever year. They (Palestinians) have something called faith.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 1:30 PM

"more and more Danes are waking up..."
-- from a posting above

Hard to keep in one's head Kierkegaard, Hans Christian Andersen, and Tivoli, and at the same time, the Qur'an, the Hadith, the Sira. Minds at work, or at play, on the one hand, minds completely zombified and submissive to the Total Explanation and Regulation, on the other. The twain can't conceivably meet. And the terrible thing is, just because of negligence, just because they didn't know, they couldn't know, they didn't want to find out, for had they done so it would have overturned all sorts of comfortable assumptions, those who let those Muslims into Denmark, and all over Western Europe, and in such numbers, where they now overbreed and conduct Da'a, cannot quite admit to their own errors. And so the army of those who continue inadvertently or deliberately, to make allowances, excuses, every kind of apologist argument, hoping for an ill-defined "moderate" Muslim answer (but how shall we define a "moderate" so as to include only those who do not in some way promote Islam and hence the Jihad? And how shall we be able to detect a real from a feigning "moderate"? And how shall we know when that "moderate" may metamorphose into a non-moderate Muslim, possibly because of some reversal in his personal life? And how shall we be certain that the children, or grandchildren, of this "moderate" will not, at any time, keenly aware that they are Muslims, turn to or revert to the real, full-bodied, and menacing Islam of which many, but not enough of us, are now fully aware?

Land of the railway restaurant spread, with its herring-centered smorrebrod, and Hamlet's father's ghost still making his appearance on the ramparts, at the witching-hour, in Elsinore, of Odense marzipan, of Illums Bolighus and Niels Bohr, of teak furniture and physicists and philology, Denmark -- like the other countries of Western Europe, including many less pleasant -- did nothing to deserve the problem it now has, nothing except extending a misplaced tolerance, a diseased sympathy, to those who do not, and cannot, wish its laws and customs and manners and its very people, well, and who have made Denmark a place now much more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would otherwise be without a large-scale Muslim presence.

There is still time to stop, and reverse, the Muslim in-migration. But this will not happen without education. Whether a product of the press, or auto-didacticism, or courses, hardly matters. One must somehow learn something of the tenets of Islam, the history of Islamic conquest, and perhaps most difficult of all, the psychology of Muslims. And then you will be able to, will insist upon, saving yourselves and your own civilization, which like that in this country, leaves a lot no doubt to be desired -- but appears positively paradisiacal compared to what threatens to transform it.

Posted by: Hugh

at October 27, 2005 1:32 PM

ia786, learn about the conflict, study it from both sides and then make your decision, from my point of view it proves everything that is wrong with Islam. Look at what is being taught to young Palestinians, you will find that it is those very verses that you reject...

Posted by: Daffersd

at October 27, 2005 1:34 PM

Troll: Show me proof
Board: Here are the quotations:..........
Troll: Show me proof
Board: Once again, here are the quotations:....
Troll: Show me proof
Board: For the thousanth time, here are the quotations:........
Troll: Show me proof

Anyone else tired of this crap?

Posted by: Infidel33

at October 27, 2005 1:39 PM

"2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims)..."

3:150 “Soon We shall strike terror into the hearts of the Infidels, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be in the Fire!”

8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

__________________________________________________

Okay Chaz Martel, here we go.

First things first, let me write what you thought I would. These verses have been taken out of context and mean nothing in the way you have presented them.

Have you studied the Quran, do you know the significance of certain surahs and the significance of when they were revealed. Do you know what Muslims were undergoing during the time a certain Surah was revealed.

See, there is a context, you have completely ignored that and it makes you look silly.

I have read those verses before, thousands here in the UK read them. Yet we are not told to go and kill people in the streets? why not, because you need to have understanding of the Quran, you need to understand the tafsir.

_________________________________________________

Okay that is clear. The World now is not as it was in Arabia 1400 years ago, understand.

Now, In Islam, one is not allowed to interpret the Quran on their OWN. This is not allowed as it can cause confusion and cause people to go down the wrong path. Ask any Imam, any senior Islamic figure. I challenge you to go to the Grand Muftis of Muslim countries and ask them this.

Those people that use these verses bypass the whole approach to understanding the Quran, thus, they are fanatics outside the fold.

Give me any talk from a respected Muslim religious figure calling for the bombing of London or New York. Just one. Give me one talk by a senior Islamic Mufti calling for murder, looting and stealing, just one.

after 7/7, Leading Islamic religious figures stated that those responsible for the attacks cannot be considered to be martyrs.

__________________________________________________

Osama Bin Laden has no right calling for Muslims to attack Americans. To begin with he has no standing, he is a nobody. On top of this he is a Wahabi.

He is no senior religious figure, We Muslims stick to the majority, this was the advice of the Prophet.

The movement that the majority of terrorists follow is called Wahabism, this has been refuted by the Ahlus-Sunnah.

I posted this earlier, if you have time, please feel free to read it.

__________________________________________________

Now these are hadith relating to War

This is the etiquette of war to be undertaken by Muslims:

Anas (May God be Pleased with Him) related that the Prophet (saws) said:
Go in the name of Allah and fight the enemy. But do not kill the elderly, children, or women. Do not be transgressors, for Allah loves the muhsinin. (Those who keep the highest standards of discipline)

If there is war, this has to be followed.

_________________________________________________

During his Caliphate, Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (May God be Pleased with Him) advised Usama (May God be Pleased with Him) as he was preparing to lead his troops:

Do not be treacherous, do not backstab, do not transgress, do not mutilate,
And do not kill children, the elderly, or women. If people are in their shrines
Leave them alone.”

Where is indiscriminate killing allowed, where??? How can 9/11, 7/7 be justified?

Even WMD have no standing according to Islamic teachings.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 1:50 PM

King: Righto, dingleberry! Go find some more articles about Islam and send them to Robert so he can post them with compliments to you! Afterall, invective and article foraging seems to be your strong points and they're put to good use here.
Posted by: KingTolerance at October 27, 2005 01:26 PM

Then why do you come to this site? Something draws you here. If you don't like the content of the truth being told about Islam, then why do you linger?

If you don't like the site, then why are you not trolling somewhere else? You've said nothing sensible since your name began appearing here anyway, so why bother everyone here with your bland, stale rhetorical remarks?

Why don't you go and visit the CAIR website? They love dumbass dhimmis like you.

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 1:59 PM

Ia finally gets it, or seems to: "Islam is not limited to Brown people mate. That is why criticising Islam cannot be called racism, Islam is not a race!"

So, when you were calling everyone on DW racists earlier, you were merely flapping your mouth.

Ahhh. Gotcha.

Weak.

Prophet Geoff
Strong

Posted by: Geoff

at October 27, 2005 2:05 PM

Ia: "Everyone knows that Israel has nukes and all that, they get Billions in military aid ever year. They (Palestinians) have something called faith."

And billions in military aid. Every year.

Prophet Geoff
Strong

Posted by: Geoff

at October 27, 2005 2:07 PM

Hmmm...looked at some of KingIntolerance's links.

Bad call, posting those Kingky.

I shall return later for their obliteration.

Prophet Geoff
BBUH

Posted by: Geoff

at October 27, 2005 2:10 PM

ia786, I think you are missing out a lot from your 'holy' book the Quran.I would find it extremely helpful if you would help us understand (any of us non-Muslims), the following verses from the Qur’an:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbours for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.”

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Qur’an 9:12 “If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness.”

Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe him, strive hard and fight jihad with their wealth and lives (in Allah’s Cause).”

Posted by: faqi

at October 27, 2005 2:11 PM

"You're a load intolerant, brainwashed, robotic, disgraceful hypocrites."
-- posted by DCWatson

Ever seen the movie Invasion of the Pod People?

The original from the 50s is especially distrubing. Go to sleep and a Pod Person lays a pod next to you and when you awake, you do so as a newborn Pod Person, from within the pod, your free-thinking former body a cadaver laying next to you as you, dead.

The movie had lotsa scenes of crowds of Pod People chasing uncoverted (i.e., still fully human) persons, running in terror, trying hard to remain free and stay awake.

Is that what conversion to Islam is like?

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 2:19 PM

"I accept every thing and every word of his (Jesus) because he is a Prophet of God, they are sinless and they are a light to Mankind."

Hi ia786. Nice to see you back. Hi King Tolerance. You always seem to show up when ia786 shows up. Are you related? Joined at the hip or something?

Anyway, with respect to Jesus, you claim to accept everything and every word of his. How about "Beware of false prophets. You will know them by their fruits?" Matt. 7:15-16. Do you believe that one? What do you think that means?

I think it means that Mohammed was not any kind of prophet. Jesus did not defend himself with the sword and told his apostle Peter that if such defense were necessary, God Himself would send seven legions of angels to do the job. Mohammed kindly corrects Jesus' error and with the result that the sword seems to have become the tool of choice for Mohammed's god, Allah.

I readily concede that this quote means that there have historically been a lot of bad Christians out there, individuals who have fallen well-short of the mark set by Jesus, by choosing to live by the sword. But the issue is not just that there have been so many bad Christians, the issue is that there have been so many good Muslims, with even wider ranging negative consequences.

That is my opinion. But so long as Muslims live their life in peace loving God and understand that they must love their neighbors as themselves, even if their neighbors are Samaritans or anyone else Muslims believe to be "Infidels," they will be living within the Will of the God I worship.

Posted by: Chatillon

at October 27, 2005 2:24 PM

"These verses have been taken out of context and mean nothing in the way you have presented them."
-- posted by ia786

Don't try to lay that obfuscatory crap on me.

Those verses mean exactly what they say because they are the literal word of God. And that's according to God, Gabriel, and the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

None of the verses are abrogated.

And the only context that matters to these verses is the chronological sequence in which they were revealed by Mohammed along the timeline of his various situations and foibles in Mecca, from the earliest surahs -- the Rhapsodies -- along to the Satanic Verses and the first warnings, and then onto the various stages of his expansionist career in Medina (Yathrib).

I've worked hard to chronologize the verses (borrowing on work done by others, including Moslem scholars) so as to explicate how this whole mess came to be.

Yes, I've studied the Koran, the Hadiths, the Sira, and the Tabari. Nothing to be proud of, because the only wisdom a human can take from this knowledge is to know and understand the grave threat Islam poses to civilization in general, and to freedom in particular.

**********************

Again, either reconcile the Koranic verses I quoted in terms of how they did NOT encourage September 11, or explain in detail my supposed context-confusion.

Do neither of these and you thereby tacitly concede my point.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 2:31 PM

Goeff,

Be careful. I'm guessing that at least some of the links the troll sends you to will harvest your IP address.

Posted by: Infidel33

at October 27, 2005 2:32 PM

ia786. In you narrative you mention the glorious creativity of Moslems. Please name a few that has helped mankind? Not what was stolen from the Greek and Indian civilizations or stolen from the rest of the world.
Maybe the civilized western Christians went around the globe and conquered backward Islamic nations to steal such great ideas as the steam engine, the wheel, the compass, the car, the plane, the phone, electric light, the valve, the transistor, the television, the Internet, Modern medicine, nuclear power, spacecraft, rockets (and all the other great Western inventions) from them?
Or was it not the other way around that the Western nations gave the primitive Islamic nations all the modern stuff. With all that the Islamic nations are the most repressive,oppressive, disease ridden,overpopulated, poverty stricken corrupt places on earth.
If not for the largesses of the Christian/secular West they would be starving and dying of manifest illnesses. Its only fair that you admit that we in the West have given a lot more to the Islamic world than we ever hope to get back even in gratitude from Islamic countries.
You are just another apologist for Islam and I am afraid that you must live in a cave, not to know any of this.

Posted by: faqi

at October 27, 2005 2:32 PM

"Give me any talk from a respected Muslim religious figure calling for the bombing of London or New York. Just one. Give me one talk by a senior Islamic Mufti calling for murder, looting and stealing, just one."
-- posted by ia786

I will, unless Hugh or some of the other experts in here would care to take care of this facile task before I can get around to it.

But you said "just one" as to your Koran-encouragement challenge, and then failed to respond. This means you must be one of three things:

1) A tease, or

2) Hugh Fitzgerald or Robert Spencer operating under the pseudonym ia786, or

3) A Moslem operating under the pseudonym ia786 who has developed the occluded brain patterns that only repeated exposure to Islamic Scriptures can etch.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 2:38 PM

ia786, you say "However I reject the concept of the trinity completely, the earlier Christians never believed he was the Son of God." The first part of that statement is your choice. The second half about early Christians not believing He was the Son of God is a lie. Thomas said "My Lord and my God!" when he saw Jesus after He was resurrected. Jesus did not say Thomas was wrong. He accepted Thomas' words as recognition of the truth. The first Christians did believe Jesus was the Son of God. They heard Jesus say it, they saw him perform His miracles, they saw Him crucified and die, they saw Him risen. When Jesus was tried before Pilate he could have been released if He had denied He was the Son of God as the Jews accused him. Like you, the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees largely rejected Jesus. I asked if you have read the bible and what Jesus said. You didn't answer, so apparently you haven't. When you stand before Jesus on the day of judgement, you will be judged on your rejection or acceptance of Him. Not on your deeds, not on anything else you have done. Your choice. Even in the Quran Allah speaks in the plural "We have created, We have done, etc." If God is singular why does He speak in the plural tense? I know, you can't answer because you aren't free to interpret. You say you reject terrorism, but you will not condemn or reject the verses in the Quran that command it. If you want me and others here to believe you, simply say "I do not believe or agree with Sura (fill in the blank). But you cannot even interpret the Quran for yourself so I doubt you will. Would God give you His word and not want you to understand it? You say the world today is not the world 1400 years ago, but the Quran is supposed to be eternally valid for you, so the verses about killing infidels who reject it must still apply. At least you admit you are not free to think or interpret the Quran for yourself. God speaks to me through the Bible and through His spirit which lives in me. I do not need anyone else to interpret what God says. When your Muftis and Imams contradict one another, whom do you believe? You cannot turn to your book for wisdom since you cannot interpret it by yourself. "Where is indiscriminate killing allowed, where???" Catch 22: the Quran places all the non-Muslim world in the dar al harb, the house of war, so the Quran discriminates between Muslims and non-Muslims. Non believers must either be killed or pay protection money (jizya) to live in Muslim lands. Not so in "infidel" lands. Jesus died for all, and rejects noone. You however are free to reject Him. We treat all men as equal under the law. Mohammed praised the men who killed two poets who spoke verses mocking him, one an old man and another a woman who was asleep with a baby at her breast. Your Muftis and Imams use the Quran to justify killing each other just as they do to justify killing non-Muslims.
"Have you studied the Quran, do you know the significance of certain surahs and the significance of when they were revealed. Do you know what Muslims were undergoing during the time a certain Surah was revealed."
"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Sura 48.29) Yeah, that's why the Shia and Sunni are always killing each other.
Yes, I have read your Quran and many of your hadiths. I am also familiar with the Shiite practice of taqiyyah. I know that the Quran was not written by Mohammed, but collected after the battle of al-Yamamah in 633 and arranged in order from the longest verse to the shortest, divided into the Mecca and Medina, aya, sura, etc., etc. I know that the later verses abrogate the earlier verses. "Nasikh" abrogates or cancels out "mansukh". It is the later verses that are the ones largely about killing us infidels. I also know that most (some 80%) of the Muslims in the world don't speak Arabic and so cannot understand what is recited or read, so they aren't supposed to get any more of a blessing out of it than me, an infidel who doesn't speak or understand Arabic. I can understand the translations however. I am not ignorant of your book, and that is why I reject it.
Have you read the bible and do you know what was going on in early Jewish and Christian times? Or are you just relying on what your religious leaders tell you?

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 27, 2005 2:58 PM

scroll by tha troll....

ia786... wazza yer problem dude,... is it becoz Liverpool went down like two-bit-h****** to Crystal Palace?... Anyways.. ia is a complex personality, sometimes he sounds perfectly fine but usually his arguments are lame... he for example takes pride in the fact that Indian underworld is dominated by Muslims!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007762.php

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar

at October 27, 2005 2:58 PM

Yes, I certainly am tired of this garbage from the twin blights of KT and Ia... How about you read the articles provided, stop linking to your own pathetic OFF TOPIC subjects, STOP relentlessly flaming the comments section and driving all threads OFF TOPIC, STOP boring us to tears with your asinine attempts to create a symmetry between Islamic transgressions and your false comparisons between Islam and capitalism, christianity, and Western Secularism... There is no symmetry...

As I have said before, this site is called "Jihad-Watch" and "Dhimmi-Watch"...

It is NOT called "One-thousand-and-one-ways-to-blame-the-West-for-Islam's-failures.com" (though I think that domain is still available, KT) or "What-went-wrong-with-Christianity-over-1000-years-ago-,-and-how-can-it-be-used-to-deflect-the-discussion-away-from-the-horrors-of-Islam.com" (and I think THAT domain is still available for you, Ia...)

I would also add:

Your respective jihads should be ended by the managers of this site immediately -- When intelligent posts are made here by sincere posters, they are responded to in kind... KT and Ia DO NOT follow this basic rule, and do not respect this tacit courtesy -- as such they are abusers of this site, abusers of the privilege of posting in the comments section, and degraders of the information and discussions that occur here. Nothing of value is is offered by either poster, nothing is gained by allowing them to post...

Time for them to go !

Posted by: jsla

at October 27, 2005 3:03 PM

Chaz, re your take on who IA really is:
1)IA is too sincere(stupid?) to be a tease.

2)Hugh and Robert are too smart to have the ability to engage in conversation let alone think in such a simplistic, adolescent manner.

3) Yeah, that's the ticket.

IA, it's not your fault that you can't see the the evil in Islam as you've been brainwashed and you come to this site attempting to defend the indefensible. KT just likes to come here for a mental wank. But let me tell you both something, Fundamental Islam is a dangerous cult to humanity and will someday be smashed like a pumpkin falling from a second story balcony. And if your in the way when this happens, well that's too bad for you.

Posted by: William The Crusader

at October 27, 2005 3:11 PM

PJS1:

Here's a link that may help.

http://hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/koran2.html

Posted by: Rich

at October 27, 2005 3:19 PM

PJS1:

Here's another:

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/categorie/46044

Posted by: Rich

at October 27, 2005 3:24 PM

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 10:09 AM

Can I have a list?

Posted by: albion

at October 27, 2005 3:25 PM

Yawn.

KT you shameless hussey.

You got mail back at the thread

(you know which one)

I see you there, chuckling, cursing & dribbling to yourself as your eyes roll, but still I feel totally underwhelmed by your responses.

Please attempt to form a coherent response.

Either that or I will assume I hit the nail on the head with points (A:) through to (C:) with regards to your character.

Mmmmkay? Alright then.

(Maybe the local weather could buy you some thinking time again?)

Salutations
Albion

Posted by: albion

at October 27, 2005 3:29 PM

More and more people are waking up to Islam's violent nature...especially Muslim s themselves.

I find it encouraging that in the UK, for instance, some 25,000 Muslims have converted to Christianity and some 175,000 others have gone completely apostate.

As for the veracity of the Koran? Well, a quick glance at the poverty, ignorance and backwardness of Islamic world tells you all you need to know about the truth of Islam.

The Islamic world can't even grow enough food to feed itself. They've reversed their priorities to such an extent that countries such as Pakistan, while having nukes capable of killing 500,000 people, haven't the wherewithall to save 500,000 of their own people from the ravages of an earthquake. And yes, a half a million may die!

To boot, as tens of thousands continue to suffer starvation and exposure, and as India prepares to donate yet another 25 million for Pakistani relief, the Islamic terrorists in Kashmir continue to set off bombs.

No food, no tents, no heat, no fresh water, no medecine and certainly no mercy.....just bearded fanatics with bombs.

Think of the obscenity!

Of course the icing on the cake comes when one reads the missives of ia786 whose every sentence and posting can be summed up in two very simple words; UTTER DENIAL.

I shudder to think what'll happen when the avian flu epidemic strikes....and it will..

Posted by: John Palubiski

at October 27, 2005 3:53 PM

Chaz Martel,

Thanks for completely ignoring the main points in my post. Your mentality won't change I know that, then you moan and cry about how no one believes you.

____________________________________________________

"Don't try to lay that obfuscatory crap on me.

Those verses mean exactly what they say because they are the literal word of God. And that's according to God, Gabriel, and the Holy Prophet (pbuh)."

You have no understanding of Islam.

I don't bet, but if your were to debate with a scholar about this, I would put everything I have on your defeat. I have heard debates like this before and the same things happens again and again, people like you have nothing, just quotations that mean nothing on there own.

I'll post something for you, you will ignore this, but I'll post it anyway.

"Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab (radi Allahu anhu) said: "Soon there will come a time when you will be confronted by people who will entangle in controversies with the ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran. Overpower them through Hadith, because those who possess the knowledge of Hadith will be in the position to understand the Quran." (Darimi, Darqutni)"

"Hazrat Imam Sufyaan bin Ainiyyah (alaihir rahmah) said: "Hadith can lead anyone astray except those who are Jurists. The reason being that the Quran is abstract which has become clear and meaningful through the Hadith, while the abstractness of the Hadith is expounded by the Four Juristic Imaams. Thus, if anyone now attempts to extract meanings of the Quran and Hadith without the four Imaams, he will go astray, and he who tries to understand the Quran without Hadith will grope the abyss of ignorance."

__________________________________________________

The funny part:

Again, either reconcile the Koranic verses I quoted in terms of how they did NOT encourage September 11, or explain in detail my supposed context-confusion.

Do neither of these and you thereby tacitly concede my point.

You want me to take those verses you posted and prove why they did NOT encourage September 11. What planet are you living on? You wish to make a claim you make it, I don't have to disprove anything because you haven't proven anything. You just posted some verses from the Quran that mean nothing on their own.

You completely ignored the points in my post. Read it again.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 4:34 PM

""Give me any talk from a respected Muslim religious figure calling for the bombing of London or New York. Just one. Give me one talk by a senior Islamic Mufti calling for murder, looting and stealing, just one."
-- posted by ia786

I will, unless Hugh or some of the other experts in here would care to take care of this facile task before I can get around to it."

I'm waiting.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 4:38 PM

"Thanks for completely ignoring the main points in my post."
-- posted by ia786

What points did I ignore? Please be specific.

Your assertion that the Koranic ayats I quoted are "out of context" also went without explanation.

Yes, you did allude to chronology, but you gave not one example of how timeframe amelerioates any of your God's horrible commandments that I quoted.

Either reconcile how the Koranic commandments hereunder could NOT be construed as encouragement for 9/11, or understand that you can't be taken seriously.

*********************

“I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

*********************
"Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth."

*********************
"Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

*********************

"So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

*********************

Lemme guess: The Jihadists, like me, were deficient in their knowledge of Koranic Science and did their mass murder of infidels in a terrible misunderstanding run amok, one big blood-soaked Islamic mistake.

Well, if that's the case, then you at least admit to your "religion's" dangerous incompetence. Shouldn't you therefore assign an Islamic Scholar [sic] to every band of Jihadists just to make sure no one else dies because of defective interpretation of Islamic scripture?

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 4:58 PM

On Oct 27 01:32 pm Hugh wrote:

Denmark -- like the other countries of Western Europe, including many less pleasant -- did nothing to deserve the problem it now has, nothing except extending a misplaced tolerance, a diseased sympathy, to those who do not, and cannot, wish its laws and customs and manners and its very people, well,…

How tragically true!

I had a couple of Swedish friends from Malmoe (across the Øresund from Copenhagen) on short visit today and I read to them Hugh's last posting.

Its message, so poignantly true and so mercilessly irrefutable, moved one of the guests – an old, burly sailor - to tears. And Swedes don’t cry easily.

He said “you Danes still have a chance but it seems too late for us. A bunch of ruthless pimps has turned our lovely, sweet and once free country into a confused whore servicing the Moslem invader”. “Our children’s children will never forgive us our compliance and dithering vis a vis such awful treason”.

I sent Hugh's posting to everyone I know. Perhaps I should translate it into Danish, print out and distribute on the streets. Although in Sweden one may both be arrested or killed for such thing -depending whether it is the police or Mohammedans who get you first - at least in Denmark you won’t get arrested. Not yet!

Posted by: thomas. h

at October 27, 2005 5:07 PM

The real challenge, IA, is finding a so called "respected Muslim religious figure"

That's the true challenge.

Posted by: DCWatson

at October 27, 2005 5:14 PM

Misplaced tolerance and diseased sympathy.

Ruthless pimps and a nation-as-confused whore.

Moslem invaders and a burly Viking sailor brought to tears, not tears of fear but tears of mourning at the imminent loss of a once great country and culture.

What makes Fjordman's site a daily-must-read is that Scandinavia will go down first and, judging from his reports, Malmo will be the first to sink into the mud.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 5:17 PM

This is the post that I have put up sometime ago
---------------------------------------
I fear there is going to be no end to this war. In fact I'm certain of it. This war is going to continue for we have allowed muslims into our lands. Our peace and our freedoms are threatened each passing day, if not buy our own government, then by any passing muslim who has taken offence at what you said about islam. People live and travel in fear, as Muslims living among us, are the most likely to be active in terrorism. A whole society (all the West) is terrorised and life made difficult, just to keep Muslims here.

The only way we will win this war and at the same time regain our freedoms, as well as free muslims from islam, is by separation. I do not think our societies, geared as they are to free and open thought, can continue while this assault on freedom in underway. If this assault is not brought to a halt soon, then free society will start to perish. It may not be evident immediately, but perish it will in the fullness of time.

Bruce Throntom gets it.

The Folly of Apology
Americans need to muster the necessary grit to win.

http://victorhanson.com/articles/thornton102605.html

It is irrelevant if n% of Muslims in the West are "innocent"; the rest of the population i.e. all of us, are being victimised as a consequence of PC. Our civilisation is dying right at this moment, as freedoms we have taken for granted, are slowly being strangled in the name of security. In the end, our whole way of life will be changed, Western nations de-stabilised and finally, we will strangle our civilisation just to keep a few million Muslims here. It is far too high a price to pay.

Posted by: DP111

at October 27, 2005 5:22 PM

Chaz MarteL 732

""Thanks for completely ignoring the main points in my post."
-- posted by ia786

What points did I ignore? Please be specific."

You ignored a point called my post.

Read it all again.

One cannot bypass the classical Islamic approach of interpreting the Holy Quran.

This is a big no no.

Those that do this are the Wahabis, now these are people that make up the overwhelming majority of terrorists (Osama, Hamas, etc.).

Their sect has been refuted. Please read my posts again as I really can't be bothered to repeat the same thing again.....

__________________________________________________

"Either reconcile how the Koranic commandments hereunder could NOT be construed as encouragement for 9/11, or understand that you can't be taken seriously."

How do you expect me to take you seriously when you ignore me and paste the same quotes again?

“You want me to take those verses you posted and prove why they did NOT encourage September 11. What planet are you living on? You wish to make a claim you make it, I don't have to disprove anything because you haven't proven anything. You just posted some verses from the Quran that mean nothing on their own.”

Why is it that we Muslims who have read the same Quran haven't committed the same attacks, why. Why has only a minority committed these horrific acts?

The Prophet has told the Ummah to stick to the largest jamaat, this the Ahlus-Sunnah, those that reject terrorism and extremism.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 5:22 PM

Please don't waste my time.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 5:23 PM

"How do you expect me to take you seriously when you ignore me and paste the same quotes again?"
-- posted by ia782

I don't give a damn what you think. You're the one who laid down the Koran-Encouragement Challenge.

"How do you expect me to take you seriously when you ignore me and paste the same quotes again?"
-- posted by ia782

I reposted them because you failed to address them.

"You wish to make a claim you make it [sic]..."
-- posted by ia782
I have already made the claim that the Koran encouraged the Good Active Moslems to commit the 9/11 mass murder.

"I don't have to disprove anything because you haven't proven anything."
-- posted by ia786

Based on your challenge, it is incumbent on you to demonstrate that these bloodthirst-inducing commands made by your God did NOT encourage that whacky band of nutty Good Active Moslems on 9/11.

"You just posted some verses from the Quran that mean nothing on their own.”
-- posted by ia786

How so? They seem pretty clear in their meaning. Show us how they don't mean what they so clearly state. Flex your Koranic Scientist muscles for us.

Let's see your Muscleboud Obfuscation Show.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 27, 2005 5:43 PM

Laurence Auster has this to say

If, on our ecumenist road to peace, we refuse even to consider the possibility that Muslims as a whole might be our permanent enemies, if we decide that even to think such a thought is evil, then we are preventing ourselves from acknowledging something that may, in fact, be true. What then happens if it actually is true? ... Universalists cannot imagine radically different civilizations residing and flourishing in distinct spheres. They can only imagine a single global system formed by a single set of democratic ideas. A culture permanently hostile to democracy or to America defeats, by its very existence, the universalist idea. The only way to defend the idea from such a recalcitrant culture would be to annihilate it.

... By contrast, civilizationists accept the fact of civilizational differences and have no fear of alien civilizations—so long as they stay in their own territory. It follows that we don't need to destroy Islam, we just need to contain it within its own sphere so that it can't threaten us.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/readarticle.asp?ID=16802&p=1

Posted by: DP111

at October 27, 2005 6:14 PM

Chaz MarteL 732

... not tears of fear but tears of mourning...

...and of guilt and of shame.

God forbid that you, American friends, shall taste the bitterness of such tears one day.
Act now; round up and tar and feather the pimps who conspire of delivering your motherland to mohammedan whorehouse.
Think of Sweden, Great Britain, Holland, Italy, France...and say: "over our dead body!"

Posted by: thomas. h

at October 27, 2005 6:22 PM

Hey mate, I don't think this is the right place to preach and hope people will believe your religion.

Don't forget, there are Jews here too.

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 10:11 AM
You state this right after you wrote a half page of muslim slop, saying how allah doesn't have a son etc. You were preaching your brand of *&^%

Posted by: Carolyn2

at October 27, 2005 6:23 PM

PJS1

An article in Fjordmans site will interest you.

Beyond homesickness: Western wives in Egypt
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/

Posted by: DP111

at October 27, 2005 6:31 PM

"I have already made the claim that the Koran encouraged the Good Active Moslems to commit the 9/11 mass murder."

You made a claim, no evidence to support it, just some verses and some tragic incidents.

Now read carefully.

In Islam, one is not supposed to Interpret the Quran on their own. This is not allowed. This is why we have Imams, Alims, Muftis etc.

Read:

The Quran not only says that the people of knowledge have the ability and capacity to understand the Quran by themselves (S29. V43), but that they should also turn to the Beloved Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) for the explanation (S16. V44). Thus, if the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) had not through his codified law explained in detail the concise meaning of the Holy Quran, it would have remained abstract. Similarly, if the learned Imaams had not elucidated and expounded the Ahadith they too would have remained abstract to us and the Ulama after them would have found it beyond their ability to make this meaningful to us. Thus, their link of guidance has been established by Allah Almighty. Whoever tries to break this link is certainly not in the path of guidance. In fact, such a person has clearly gone astray.

It is for this reason that Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab (radi Allahu anhu) said: "Soon there will come a time when you will be confronted by people who will entangle in controversies with the ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran. Overpower them through Hadith, because those who possess the knowledge of Hadith will be in the position to understand the Quran." (Darimi, Darqutni)

Hazrat Imam Sufyaan bin Ainiyyah (alaihir rahmah) said: "Hadith can lead anyone astray except those who are Jurists. The reason being that the Quran is abstract which has become clear and meaningful through the Hadith, while the abstractness of the Hadith is expounded by the Four Juristic Imaams. Thus, if anyone now attempts to extract meanings of the Quran and Hadith without the four Imaams, he will go astray, and he who tries to understand the Quran without Hadith will grope the abyss of ignorance."

Hujjatul Islam further said that there are materialistic atheists who are sowing mischief by refuting Hadith altogether and just verbally making the Holy Quran as the only decision-making authority. In reality, these people are the enemies of Quran and Quran is their enemy. He also identified another group called the Ahle Quran or the people of the Quran who seek all proofs from the Quran alone for their problems, as no narration to them is like the Quran. Both these groups know well that they have no significance in the court of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam).

Have you read that?

__________________________________________________

Now after 7/7 leading classical scholars from around the World made a fatwa, they stated that those responsible for the attacks cannot be regarded as martyrs. I suggest you read and watch what they had to say, that is Islam.

You understand, the act they carried out went against the teachings of Islam, so how can they be 'Good Active Muslims'?

How is that possible?

Are you a Mufti? How can you even say that? That is why it is so hard for me to take you seriously.

__________________________________________________

Now I touched on this earlier.

The Wahabi sect is the one that rejects the Classical Sunni Islam. They reject the four Imams. They belittle the status of the Prophet.

Their movement has been refuted.

Here is some proof of this.

_________________________________________________

"The Doctrine Of Ahl Al-Sunna Versus The "Salafi" (Wahabi) Movement"

....book by the Iraqi scholar al-Zahawi (1863-1936) is published in English for the first time....

About the book

Al-Zahawi displays a profound mastery of the proofs of Ahl al-Sunna which he presents in a clear and systematic style. The book is divided into concise sections tracing the origins of the Wahhabi/Salafi movement and the teachings that this movement promotes in isolation of the doctrine of the majority of Muslims. After a brief historical overview of the bloody origins of Wahhabism and the "Salafi" creed, the author turns to investigate the foundations of the shari`a which have been targeted by the Wahhabi/Salafi movement for revision, namely:

the Wahhabi/Salafi tampering of the doctrine of the pious Salaf concerning God's essence and attributes, and his freedom from body, size, or direction;

their rejection of ijma` (scholarly consensus) and qiyas (analogy);

their rejection of the sources and methodological foundations of ijtihad (deriving qualified judgment) and taqlid (following qualified judgment).

__________________________________________________

Now the Wahabi movement rejects the classical approach. They take verses out of context and commit crimes against Mankind, against Islam and against God.

You should know that alot of the terrorists across the World happen to be Wahabis (Osama Bin Laden, Zarqawi, Hamas etc.)

Now there movement has been refuted.

__________________________________________________

On top of this, their are hadith that tell about the coming of the Wahabi movement. He has warned us.

Now The Prophet also told Muslims to stick to the largest group of Muslims, this is the Ahlus-Sunnah. The Wahabis are in a minority, they are concentrated in the Gulf but they have oil and have used this to fund alot of their projects Worldwide.

__________________________________________________

Now those verses mean nothing on their own. Even in war, innocents are not to be harmed.

Now these are hadith relating to War

This is the etiquette of war to be undertaken by Muslims:

If there is war, this has to be followed.

_________________________________________________

During his Caliphate, Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (May God be Pleased with Him) advised Usama (May God be Pleased with Him) as he was preparing to lead his troops:

Do not be treacherous, do not backstab, do not transgress, do not mutilate,
And do not kill children, the elderly, or women. If people are in their shrines
Leave them alone.”

Where is indiscriminate killing allowed, where??? How can 9/11, 7/7 be justified?

Even WMD have no standing according to Islamic teachings.

__________________________________________________

Now with your post you have proven nothing. Islam is not just the Quran, it is the Sunnah, it is the words of the righteous scholars.

As I said earlier, I have heard debates between people like you and Islamic scholars, the same thing happens again and again. People like you are always humiliated because you have nothing.

I have been to Mosque all my life, I have done what the Imam tells me to do, be kind to your parents and those around you etc. I have never been told to kill anyone, I say this with God as my witness. Come to any Mosque and listen.

Now only a handful of Muslims commit terrorist attacks, more than a billion don't, this itself puts the fanatical views down.

God has said that He will never allow the Ummah yo unite on Error.

I hope you have read this.

Now if you can, please:

Thanks for reading.

Posted by: ia786

at October 27, 2005 6:33 PM

I think this will do...A respected islamic leader...
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

Posted by: Carolyn2

at October 27, 2005 6:42 PM

How about yesterday when the "Mad Mullahs" of Iran stated that Israel should be "wiped off the face of the earth"?

Posted by: learjet0450

at October 27, 2005 6:55 PM

PJS1, Here is an article from another thread you should copy and send to the family of the young lady you were speaking of-
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Carolyn2

at October 27, 2005 6:59 PM

To "thomas. h" from Denmark --

You have mentioned possibly translating the piece above. I would be pleased if any of the postings or articles here could be translated and distributed on whatever websites are available in Scandinavia. Please click on the articles at the top of the site (Articles) and look at "Islam For Infidels" (Parts I, II, and III), and also "Douce France" (which is about France, but not only France). Anything you feel like translating, or having others volunteer to translate into their respective languages, and distributing, wherever you think it will do good -- please do.

Posted by: Hugh

at October 27, 2005 7:08 PM

How can you possibly believe in a religion whose Founder, Muhammad, was a terrorist and pedophile?
All credibilty is lost with that narcisstic psychopath is your Founder. By the way, if you knew anything about the Bible, you will see that Mohhamnad plagerized much of the Qu'ran from the Bible. The difference though is that the Qu'ran is a rambling series of Saris with no time line, thus devoid of any contextual meaning.

The real truth which you couldn't possibly bear or understand is that the Qur'an is satanically inspired.

The Bible is the ONLY religious book to contain Prophecies of which many have come true and it Prophesized the Arab Race "and they will act like a wild man"

Posted by: learjet0450

at October 27, 2005 7:09 PM

ia786,

I'm curious. What is so special about Islam? What did the last and bestest prophet add that wasn't already there in Judaism and Christianity?

Will you at least admit that Mohammed is not an inspirational figure? Because an unrepentant murderer is a very strange holy man.

I honestly believe that Muslims know there is something very wrong with their religion. They know that Jesus didn’t kill anyone and Mohammed slaughtered his enemies. They know that there is something very wrong with slaughtering entire tribes and finding innumerable ways to explain why murder is “permissible”. Muslims, like all humans, have a conscience but their insane allegiance to their murderous prophet means that Satan will always have them by the balls. Give up Mohammed and his absurd claim to be a prophet. You can still worship the one true God.

Posted by: 1630r

at October 27, 2005 7:20 PM

Wow! This thread quickly filled up to 123+ posts in a matter of 24 hours!

Of course, the main reason for this is yet another tug-of-war between ia876/King Tolerance and the jihadwatchers.

I think both sides are being stubborn, therefore making the contention protracted and unproductive.

However, the stubbornness of the jihadwatchers is more understandable. What the jihadwatchers rightfully expect of ia876/King Tolerance is that they admit that Islam has serious, serious, SERIOUS problems that are causing an unnacceptable amount of murders, instability, and insecurity around the globe.

If ia876/King Tolerance admit this, they don't have to also (as they evidently think) get sucked into conceding that Islam is completely horrible or that all Muslims are bad.

ia876/King Tolerance can stand their ground and defend aspects of Islam and Muslims -- but it won't work at all if they stubbornly keep implying that there are no serious, serious, SERIOUS problems with Islam.

Come on, ia876/King Tolerance: be graceful and give an inch. You'll find that the debate will loosen up and become friendlier and more productive.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at October 27, 2005 7:40 PM

to Hugh,

I will certainly try to translate the last posting as it deals specifically with Denmark.

Although most of people here read and understand English quite well, especialy bloggers, it needs to be in Danish if one aims at having it printed in a paper. Now that would be very nice!

Let's see. I will let you know what's happening.

Posted by: thomas. h

at October 27, 2005 7:55 PM

If ia876/King Tolerance admit this, they don't have to also (as they evidently think) get sucked into conceding that Islam is completely horrible or that all Muslims are bad.

Dr. Pepper,

I may be only speaking for myself, but whatever that duo should concede I shall never be budged from my view that, indeed, “Islam is completely horrible”.
To say anything different about the Cult of Mohamed (CoM) would be violating and denying my inborn intuitions of good and evil. To do so I would have to betray not only myself, but countless millions humans slaughtered on the altar of that monstrous creed.
And this has nothing to do with being a Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist or Zoroastrian. It is about being human.
I believe we all are born with these intuitions and I detest Islam for stamping them out in the hearts and minds of little children who were unfortunate to be born into CoM.

BTW, I don’t think anyone here believes “that all Moslems are bad”.

Posted by: thomas. h

at October 27, 2005 8:23 PM

I may be only speaking for myself, but whatever that duo should concede I shall never be budged from my view that, indeed, “Islam is completely horrible”

That's fine; I'm just telling that duo that they need to give a little ground and show good faith by admitting the grave problems emanating out of Islam, in order for the debate to rise above the childish tug-of-war it has become. Even if the majority of jihadwatchers here share your view, at least then the debate will move to a more productive one between --

ia786/KT: "Yes, there are terrible problems emanating out of Islam; Islam is diseased and we need to find ways of curing it"

jihadwatchers: "Islam is essentially diseased and no cure is possible"

ia786/KT: "Well, we disagree: here are aspects of Islam that indicate an area, or core, of health which we want to accentuate while taking care of the diseased parts"

etc.

BTW, I don’t think anyone here believes “that all Moslems are bad”.

If you recall, I added the parenthesis "(as you [ia786/KT] evidently think [that jihadwatchers think])" -- the point is, the extreme stubbornness of jihadwatchers keeps making ia786 and KT think that you do. Secondly, it's a bit disingenuous to say that you think Islam is "completely horrible" and not think all Muslims are bad -- since Islam is realized and perpetuated by the Muslims who participate in it.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at October 27, 2005 8:50 PM

muslims are people,
islam is an ideology
and a belief system
based on a master/slave
relationship, submission.
In islam, the mind is patterned
to always have a choice
to do good or to do evil,
for the islamic belief
is that you can do good,
spreading the doctrine of islam,
by terrorizing and murdering non-believers.
In islam, there is an ethic for believers,
and a different ethic for non-believers.
In islam,if it leads to allah's reign
on earth, then it is good.
If it hinders allah's reign, it is evil.
Wrap the old synapses around that.

Posted by: the poetess

at October 27, 2005 8:59 PM

Dr Pepper... The notion that these fools (KT/Ia786) will ever engage in anything other than obfuscation and flaming is wrong and misguided. Their agenda consists solely of posting polemic masturbations in the hope of degrading this fantastic site. The other day, Ia, or KT, I'm not sure which --boasted that many of the threads he was involved with eventually got to the 100+ comments -- he then bragged that his swill was responsible for making such threads a great success. Of course, the EXACT OPPOSITE is true -- these posters muddle genuine discussions and attempt to destroy the threads at JihadWatch/DhimmiWatch... Sadly, they are often successful at this -- and tragically no light is shed and I believe some posters just stop looking at those polluted threads where they have spread their garbage... Given the harm they cause, I think it's time to take out the garbage. That's just my opinion...

Posted by: jsla

at October 27, 2005 9:05 PM

jsla,

You could be right about ia786 and KT. I'm throwing this up as a kind of challenge to them to show they are not just playing games or stuck in a stubborn one-way street. If they respond to my posts in a positive manner or a negative manner, at least I'll finally know, one way or the other. (If they don't respond at all, I'll have to continue to suspend judgement.)

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at October 27, 2005 9:31 PM

To our resident contrarians, here is a quote from my TypeKey profile-
Isaiah 5:20 says: Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
As the poetess says, the whole theology of islam is evil is good.

Posted by: Carolyn2

at October 27, 2005 9:38 PM

ia786,

You are trying to claim that true Koran-based Islam is a religion of peace. You present yourself as a peaceful Muslim. That's all fair and good enough. However, you are stuck with an embarrassing problem--the Koran itself. The problem extends to the supporting texts, such as the Hadith. If your professed faith in Islam is true, let's put it to the test. (Others on this thread have tried, but you won't take up their challenges; you dodge and weave).

Here are just four morality-testing questions. What I am asking of you is to indicate whether you morally accept or reject what is described in the verse(s). To be fair, I'll commit to my own moral opinion of the verse(s) too.

1. How Mohammad Dealt With Critics.

37:34 Lo! thus deal We with the guilty.
37:35 For when it was said unto them, There is no God save Allah, they were scornful
37:36 And said: Shall we forsake our gods for a mad poet?
37:37 Nay, but he brought the Truth, and he confirmed those sent (before him).
37:38 Lo! (now) verily ye taste the painful doom -
37:39 Ye are requited naught save what ye did -
37:40 Save single-minded slaves of Allah;

Here we see that Mohammad condemned critics to a painful doom. I guess he didn't have a good counter-argument for his critics. Otherwise, instead of making angry childish threats, Mohammad would have produced a brilliant rebuttal to be immortalized in the Holy Koran. Why can't he show them that his Allah is better than their gods? Why would they judge the prophet to be a "mad poet"? What did he then do about these critics? He had many of them assassinated, see http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html

My first question concerns just one of those critics, a very elderly man named Abu Afak. Do you morally approve of Mohammad's ordered assassination of Abu Afak?

My answer: I unequivocably condemn and reject Mohammad's barbaric actions in having that critic put to death.
Your answer: ?

2. Mohammad's Final Policy Toward the Jewish People.

A report narrated by a man named Muslim from Abu Hurayrah, the prophet said:

"The hour (of the Day of Judgement) will not begin until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say 'Oh Muslim, O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!' -except for the gharqad (bow thorn), for it is one of the trees of the Jews."
(Reported by Muslim, 2922). This passage was also quoted by Osama bin Laden, May 28, 1998, in an interview with John Bell of ABC News.

Also from the Hadith:
Book 19, Number 4366:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

"Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: 'I will expel the Jews and Christians from the ARABIAN PENINSULA and will not leave any but Muslims.'"

My answer: I unequivocably condemn and reject Mohammad's vicious policy of hate and genocide against the Jews and Christians.
Your answer: ?

3. Mohammad's Ultimate Policy Toward Disbelievers.

The worst possible sin is disbelief in or denial of Allah 10:17, 11:18-19, 18:15, 32:22. Disbelief or turning away from Allah is a persecution worse than warfare (2:217) or slaughter (2:191). The worst thing a person can possibly do in this world is to disbelieve in Allah. (In excess of 200 separate verses condemn disbelievers to hell-fire). Nowhere does the Koran say that disbelievers should not be killed, except where there is a temporary strategic benefit to Islam to keep the disbelievers alive (e.g., as slaves to be bought or sold, or as taxed dhimmis, etc.). Disbelief is the crime. Killing disbelievers is not a crime at all. This is confirmed in secondary texts, e.g.,

"Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us..." Tabari IX:69.

It is well-known that many verses in the Koran order the killing of various kinds of disbelievers (4:89-91, 9:41, 9:5, 61:11, etc.). Believers must honour their duty to Allah and fight the disbelievers in battle, or else they'll be punished in hell (2:216, 8:15-16, 9:39).

My answer: I unequivocably condemn and reject Mohammad's vicious policy of hatred and murder.
Your answer: ?

4. Mohammad's Conduct as a Husband.

Wife beater:

(Trans., Shakir). 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

(Note, do not be fooled by Yusufali's translation, which says beat (lightly); "lightly" is purely an addition of Yusufali).

Pedophile and violent abuser of a child:

Marriageable age in some Islamic countries for females is nine years of age. This follows Mohammad's pedophillic example, because the age at which he "consummated" his marriage with Ayesha was 9. (He married her when he was in his fifties and when she was 6; he fantasized about her when she was five. He also was interested in other females, actually infants, who could potentially be his mates. This pattern fits the profile of someone with pedophillic tendencies).

Ayesha said "I have not seen anyone suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!"
Bukhari. Note: The "green" adjective is apparently in reference to the bruising from all the beatings.

Ayesha said: "He (Muhammad) struck me (Aisha) on the chest which caused me pain." Muslim, no. 2127. Mohammad's young wife Ayesha tells of how the prophet struck her hard enough to cause pain (and an enduring memory of the event).

My answer: I unequivocably condemn this barbaric pedophile maniac's actions.
Your answer: ?

------------------------------------

I will await your answers.

Oh, you asked for the name of an Islamic scholar who supported violent Jihad in the name of Allah. Here's one candidate:

"But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those are witless."

-Ayatollah Khomeini, Respected Islamic Scholar.

I recommend that you read the following:

Respected Scholar of Islam, Ibn Warraq _Why I am Not a Muslim_.
Respected Investigator of Jihad History, Andrew Bostom _Legacy of Jihad_.

A comment from the prophet (may peace and affection be upon him): (Pickthal transl.) 22:15: "Whoso is wont to think that Allah will not give him (Mohammad) victory in the world and in the Hereafter (and is enraged at the thought of his victory), let him stretch a rope up to the roof (of his dwelling), and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispelleth that whereat he rageth!"

Is that your prophet, ia786?

Posted by: Archimedes

at October 27, 2005 9:58 PM

DR. Pepper,

... the point is, the extreme stubbornness of jihadwatchers keeps making ia786 and KT think that you do.
About stubbornness:
I think there is a great difference between stubborn pointing at facts and stubborn dismissing facts. There is no real discussion without the former, or with the latter.

jihadwatchers: "Islam is essentially diseased and no cure is possible"
No, Islam is not diseased - Islam is the disease.

ia786/KT: "Well, we disagree: here are aspects of Islam that indicate an area, or core, of health which we want to accentuate while taking care of the diseased parts"

Dr. Pepper, if you heard admission that, indeed, Nazism was very bad, BUT the trains were made to run on time, unemployment was greatly reduced, streets were safe for a woman to walk at night and, well… the level of dental hygiene, or … awareness of danger of cigarette smoking was dramatically increased, would you concede that Nazism had its “good aspects… to accentuate while taking care of the diseased parts…”? Of course not!
Nazism, like communism, are not diseased – they are disease.

..., it's a bit disingenuous to say that you think Islam is "completely horrible" and not think all Muslims are bad -- since Islam is realized and perpetuated by the Muslims who participate in it.

Well, not exactly.
One needs to be able to see Islam for Moslems as one needs to see forests for the trees. It is fallacy to insist on their equivalence. The belief that all Moslems are bad is beside its ambiguity (bad for what?) an extreme form of totalitarianism.

We don’t deny the humanity of people who carry even most deadly disease. Whatever the evil of Islam, we need to remember the human soul in our fellow men - the Moslem - even if we must fight him in order to survive.
“Love your enemy” is as compelling today as 2000 year ago. And so is “keep an eye on the bastard”.

regards,

Posted by: thomas. h

at October 27, 2005 10:03 PM

To our resident contrarians, here is a quote from my TypeKey profile-
Isaiah 5:20 says: Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
As the poetess says, the whole theology of islam is evil is good.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at October 27, 2005 09:38 PM

I read an article written by Ali Sina (I think) in which he explained the exasperating futility of trying to make muslims recognize the intrinsic evil of Muhammand and Islam. As he explained it, and he explained it much better than I can paraphrase it, since muhammad was allah's final prophet, everything he did was divinely sanctioned. It is not permissible for muslims to question allah's will, be it genocide, torture, slavery, murder, polygamy, or any other barbaric, evil deed that Jews and Christians consider cardinal sins.

That is why Islam is antithetical to Western Civilization and cannot coexist harmoniously with other religions. When you try to point out to a muslim that it is unjust, wrong, cruel, and barbaric to commit murder, to mutilate other human beings, to behead people, to wage jihad against Christians and Jews, to subjugate women, to kill apostates, etc., they are offended. After all, allah is the greatest and he decreed that muslims should do these things. So it's a lost cause. Muslims do not think the way we think. They do not see the world in the same way. Their culture and belief system are diametrically opposed to our own. If they happen to have a fleeting doubt or suspicion that their violent, hate-filled "religion" is not entirely germane, they quickly dismiss it and immediately embark upon one of their mind-numbing rituals to allay their blasphemous thoughts. They emerge from their soothing liturgy with renewed obduracy and devotion, invigorated and eager to submit to every whim of their diabolical allah.

So the poetess is absolutely right; the entire theology of Islam is predicated on the evil will of allah, to which muslims must submit. Who are they to question the almighty?

Posted by: Susanp

at October 27, 2005 11:16 PM

In the name of Allah 786 (the Muslim Holy Numeral), ie. ia786:

Point me to a single country which has a majority Muslim population that allows equal rights to everyone, where a non-Muslim can hold the highest office, which has democracy, allows idol-worship and so on. Essentially a free secular society.

The fact that I don't see one implies to me that Islam destroys/hinders such societies.

Posted by: kufr

at October 28, 2005 2:15 AM

Or is that Insh'Allah? Well, whatever..

Posted by: kufr

at October 28, 2005 2:16 AM

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 10:09 AM

Can I have a list?

Posted by: albion at October 27, 2005 03:25 PM

I am waiting

Posted by: albion

at October 28, 2005 4:01 AM

>...I am waiting

Might be a long wait, better make sure you have some supplies.

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 28, 2005 4:58 AM

>...thomas ato: "Politeness?"

>King: Ha! You have some nerve. You've been one of >the biggest purveyors of impolite, ire-induced >rubbish around here, so SHhhhhhh!

Since this kind of sums up the level of disputational power you are up against...

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 28, 2005 5:02 AM

Being new here, I am a little confused with some of this.
Let me see if I can summarize some of what is being said.

ia786: Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion. I have never committed any act of violence in it's name nor have I been asked by my religious leader to do so. Those who have, do not follow true islam.

Others: What about all the statements in the Quran advocating violence?

ia786: Oh those, You are taking them out of context. You need a religious specialist(imam) to understand this.

My question: If those texts are taken out of context why did Mohammed perform so many acts of violence against his detractors once his power base was established??? This includes women who simply spoke out against him.

Commentary: Having seen religious programming in some of the cults in the U.S. The, "you need a religious expert to understand the texts", is exactly the argument many of them use to control their followers.
One more item, to some of the "Others" I refer to, Please, show a little more respect when someone with an opposing point of view comes here.
The "Rama ding ding" thing is quite rude. Also, try to keep your questions concise and to the point with no insults.

Hanover Fisk.

Posted by: Hanover Fisk

at October 28, 2005 7:21 AM

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 10:09 AM

Can I have a list?

Posted by: albion at October 27, 2005 03:25 PM

I think this sums you up really IA. When challenged, you fold so easily because you know your religion is nothing more than an Arab Supremicist organisation that is hell bent on ruling the world.

"Fight until all religion is for Allah". Mmmm. Not a very British characteristic I recognise.

You may have been born here in the UK, but you are not British, English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish. It takes more than birth in a certain territory to actually be a part of it.

You should move back to Dar Al Islam, & I think you secretly know why & what is coming to this land.

Posted by: albion

at October 28, 2005 7:33 AM

Oh KT

(he of local adverse weather conditions fame)

I guess because of the amount of time that has now elapsed since I posted on the Holland thread, & your obvious lack of any coherent response, I take it that I must have hit the nail firmly & truly & squarely on the head where your character, & my analysis of your character, is concerned.

8-1

I am yawning profusely at your latest waste of space of an offering back there.

Again,

It is totally pointless "keeping your eye on me" if you cannot form any meaningful response.

(& no KT, rolling your eyes at warp speed & dribbling alot does not qualify as an adequate "response")

I see you there, chuckling, cursing & dribbling to yourself as your eyes roll, but still I feel totally underwhelmed by your responses.

I don't know why I thought you worth the bother.

Patently you are not.

Again,

No surgeon like incisive, cutting remarks destroying any aspect of (A:) through to (C:)?

No interferometer laser pinpointing the flaws in my assessment of you?

No challenge at all to the points raised?

Mmmkay. Alright.

Much too easy.

All the best old son

Albion

Posted by: albion

at October 28, 2005 7:37 AM

"These verses have been taken out of context and mean nothing in the way you have presented them."
-- posted by ia786

So then, this is as close as a Moslem is willing to get to explaining the myriad evil components contained in the "holy" Koran.

Not willing to explain how the ayats were taken out of context or how the supposed misplaced context distorted their meetings.

Not willing to explain how verbatim quotation amounts to a "presentation" by the infidel quoter.

I expected nothing more, but thought it would be somewhat useful to demonstrate the literal inability of Moslems to engage in an intelligent discourse on the evil at the foundation of Islam.

By way of contrast, as an example I -- born and raised a Christian -- am able to engage in intelligent discourse on the flaws of Christianity, and indeed have done so with various Hindu critics of Judeo-Christianity.

At a later time I will post my theory on how Islam causes thought-occlusion in the Moslem Mind, such as we've seen over the past day wit ia786's.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 28, 2005 8:21 AM

Chaz MarteL 732, if ia786 says anything against those verses, he damns himself as an apostate. Muslims cannot question or interpret the Quran by themselves, they can only submit like good little slaves and accept it. There is an internal dichotomy; ia786 says he abhors acts of terrorism and violence, yet that is precisely what the Quran commands its followers to do. Mohammed's life is a perfect example of violence and terror used to spread religion. After all, how many jihads did Mohammed lead during his lifetime? 65 in ten years? They were not peaceful journeys of introspection, but bloody military conquests. I'm surprised ia786 didn't use the old "You can never understand the Quran because you do not speak Arabic!" excuse, but that's probably coming next. However since some 80% of the world's Muslim population doesn't read or speak Arabic, (indeed the majority of the Islamic world is illiterate by Western standards) I guess that means they are left out of any "blessings" from the Quran also. Pity. But maybe ia786 can get his Imam or Mufti or Mullah to interpret those verses and refute them for us, or at least explain how they are really referring to a kinder, gentler jihad........

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 28, 2005 9:11 AM

"I'm curious. What is so special about Islam? What did the last and bestest prophet add that wasn't already there in Judaism and Christianity?"
-- posted by 1630r

At the very outset of the Koran, in the fifth and sixth ayats of the surah The Opening, Islam sets itself apart from, and explicitly opposes, all other religions:

01.05 Keep us on the straight path.
01.06 The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

As you can see, Islam is founded upon the mistakedness of other religions, in particular Judaism and Christianity, God's furious anger at the mistakes, and His commandment to all Moslems to save the mistake-makers from their perfidy by conversion, murder, or Dhimmitude.

That is what makes Islam special.

A quick survey of other religions demonstrates that they mind their own business, with their field of work lying between the individual's soul and its God(s) and the nature He created.

In frightening contrast, Islam's field of work is between the individual's soul and his infidel religion.

In other words, Moslems are meddlers. And violent ones. And, if they can't save your soul, well doggone it maybe they can at least mooch off of you or rob you or enslave you or maybe rape you.

But practicing your infidel religion is absolutely unacceptable to the Moslem Meddler. Religion of Peace, indeed.

**********************

"I honestly believe that Muslims know there is something very wrong with their religion. They know that Jesus didn’t kill anyone and Mohammed slaughtered his enemies. They know that there is something very wrong with slaughtering entire"
-- posted by 1630r

Point well taken, but I can't agree. I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I am convinced that Moslems are literally incapable of recognizing the many horrible featues of their awful "reglion" (quote marks cuz Islam is actually a nationalist ideology).

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 28, 2005 9:39 AM

DC Watson you said "The crazy man Muhammad never saw God either." Excellent point old friend. Muslims say Mohammed is like Moses, but he is nothing at all like Moses. Moses went up on the mountain and spoke with God "face to face as a man speaks with a friend", Exodus 33:11. Mohammed went down into a cave in the mountain and talked with an angel. God told Moses His name was YHWH "I am that I am". Mohammed's god Allah was one of Mecca's 360 pagan idols. God chose a successor to Moses, Joshua. When Mohammed died, Allah designated no successor, so a series of caliphs took over the leadership of Islam, who were in turn assassinated by other Muslims. Islam was founded in blood, treachery and terror and to its credit has always tried to remain true to its roots.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 28, 2005 9:39 AM

I do realise that Islam has caused a minority to do terrible things. I admit that, …
Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 10:09 AM

What?! Islam has caused anyone to do terrible things?
Wow! That from IA himself!

Quickly, let’s forward IA’s admission to some serious mohammedan site and let them trace the man. If we don’t hear from him anymore it would mean they hunted him down and did to him one of a few “terrible things” Islam prescribes for its Moslem critics. It would be one of extremely rare situations from which both islam and the rest of us would benefit.

Posted by: thomas. h

at October 28, 2005 9:52 AM

"Islam is actually a nationalist ideology"
Chaz MarteL 732 , I think "cult" defines it better. check this out, Islam fits it to a T.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.

The group is focused on a leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment. Typically, the leader is alive, but in some cases may be deceased, but his or her “message” (belief system, ideology, touted practices) is still upheld as the Truth, as law.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry; leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar; the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders, and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify the means (what members are expected to do). This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, collecting money for bogus charities).

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in members in order to influence and control them. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪ Subservience to the leader/group results in members cutting ties with family, friends, and radically altering personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group, believing there is no other way to be, and often fearing reprisals to self or others if they leave or even consider leaving the group.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 28, 2005 10:01 AM

"How can you possibly believe in a religion whose Founder, Muhammad, was a terrorist and pedophile?
All credibilty is lost with that narcisstic psychopath is your Founder. By the way, if you knew anything about the Bibl....."

Irrelevant. I am talking about one thing, you are talking about something else.

Show me:

____________________________________________________

You want to discuss Muhammad, go ahead. Make as much noise as you want, your 'arguments' can easily be refuted. I don’t have time to play ‘My religion is better than yours’.

Address the issues at hand.

Posted by: ia786

at October 28, 2005 10:45 AM

"Chaz MarteL 732 , I think "cult" defines it better. check this out, Islam fits it to a T."
-- posted by Bohemond_1069

I knew I was gonna get caught on that. And you're absolutely right, Islam is a cult.

That's an interesting site you recommended. The "Cults 101" checklist there (a list of 15 characteristics) is a spot-on hit for Islam, right down to the "us versus them mentality" characteristic.

But, I prefer national ideology because Islam, over the past 1,390 years, has evolved beyond just being a cult, exhibiting characteristics most often associated with nation states:

1) Military organization

2) Full-fledged legal system

3) Expansion roadmap

4) Systems of hegemonic controls

5) Education system

Also, membership in a cult is regarded as personal problem, a mental illness.

Membership in a nation is more easily regarded as a genuine threat that comprises a broad set of criminal infractions that can be identified and proscuted.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 28, 2005 10:52 AM

The list kindly provided by a poster, "Bohemond," nearly immediately above, a list of the defining characteristics of a religious cult (excerpted from a scholarly study) is important.

One hopes that many will print this list out, and think about it, and find it useful in attempting to prevent a friend, a relative, even one's own child, who for some reason (often, marriage to a Muslim) may be thinking of converting to Islam. Once the list has been reread, it sticks in the mind, and in almost every respect (save possibly for the emphasis on "money-making," which once was based on looting of Infidel victims during conquest, and subsequently on the jizyah, protection-money or tribute-money required of them, and now comes as a result of OPEc oil revenues). It is the kind of list that should be carried around in one's pocket, and shown to others, or its points raised at one of those Mosque Outreach sessions that are insidious propagandistic exercises.

Really, quite a find.

Posted by: Hugh

at October 28, 2005 10:52 AM

"Show me:

Give me any talk from a respected Muslim religious figure calling for the bombing of London or New York. Just one."
-- posted by ia786

I could, and I would, but then you'd weasel out of it by saying this or that Mufti was not "respected" whatever that is.

1.2 billion occlusive thought processes, blind spots, delusions, hyper-dangerous time bombs.

It's all such a drag. We worked for 2 million years to raise ourselves up only to have ourselves dragged back into the primordial muck by a nationalist cult posing as a ridiculous religion.

I'm thinking about writing a novel set in the timespace of the forthcoming post-Islam world takeover. Plot line: Will it take us another 2 million years to pull ourselves back up out of the muck?

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 28, 2005 10:59 AM

If modern nation states can have Hate Crime laws (I don't think they should, but they do), then why can't we also have Anti-Cult laws?

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 28, 2005 11:02 AM

"Wow! This thread quickly filled up to 123+ posts in a matter of 24 hours!

Of course, the main reason for this is yet another tug-of-war between ia876/King Tolerance and the jihadwatchers.

I think both sides are being stubborn, therefore making the contention protracted and unproductive.

However, the stubbornness of the jihadwatchers is more understandable."

Hi DrPepper.

I asked the people to show my how 9/11 and 7/7 can be justified in Islam, many here say that those that committed those crimes were good Muslims.

I have received nothing in response, just cut and paste jobs, verses from the Quran, and I have continually stated and proven why they mean nothing the way they are presented.

I think I am an open person, I follow the religion of Islam because it helps me become a better human being. There are fanatics across the World that kill ruthlessly, kill women, children, men, old people, all people indiscriminately. I oppose that with all my physical and spiritual being. I will do all I can to oppose that.

Yet the people here wish to paint ALL Muslims with the same brush, even though 99.9% Muslims across the World have never committed any terrorist attacks.

They put their own selfish agenda before even commonsense. That is why their mission is a waste, they will get no where. They don't want to build bridges, they want death. I am open, I know 100 % that Islam doesn’t allow acts like 9/11 and 7/7, I know that.

"Come on, ia876/King Tolerance: be graceful and give an inch. You'll find that the debate will loosen up and become friendlier and more productive."

I think I am an open person. I think I am very tolerant of other people’s beliefs and views, I am open to criticism of Muslims. I am. I don't back Muslims, just because they are Muslim. I support what is right and I oppose what is wrong, no matter who is pushing it. That is what I am telling you mate.

I know that Muslim extremists are creating problems in alot of area across the World, problems for Muslims and Non-Muslims, I know that.

Now I'll be honest with you mate as you seem more open. I don't think that most of the people that post on DW are good people. I don't say that with arrogance, I say that with personal experience.

I have read some horrid things over the last few months. These people are not good people. Even recently I remember the comments on the Pakistan Earthquake, they were pathetic. I have family there. It was a very traumatic moment. Now whenever anything happens in the West, I feel sadness, anger (at the criminals) and sympathy, same as whatever happens in the East. Now alot of the people here feel anger when atrocities happen in the West (understandable) but they laugh and joke when it happens to any Muslim country. Just Hypocrites, they laugh at people dying.

I don't forget things like that. The majority of the people here are not good people. I am not saying this in order to offend the people here, I'm being forthright. I don't want anything to do with someone that can laugh at innocent people dying (whether they’re Muslim or Non-Muslim).

The fight against Islamic extremism is a good fight, everyone has to join in, Muslim, Christian, Jew, everyone. However the people here jeopardise the true mission, they only bring hatred, bigotry and hypocrisy.

Posted by: ia786

at October 28, 2005 11:06 AM

"I do realise that Islam has caused a minority to do terrible things. I admit that, I too hope you are willing to admit there are many that follow the teachings of Islam yet have done many wonderful things for Mankind.

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 10:09 AM

Can I have a list?

Posted by: albion at October 27, 2005 03:25 PM

I think this sums you up really IA. When challenged, you fold so easily because you know your religion is nothing more than an Arab Supremicist organis……yap yap yap."

Weak.

Do you seriously think I'm going to sit down and write all that up? I have a life, I have things to do.

Okay, lets begin with me. Through Islam I have learnt to treat my parents, elders, neighbours, the community with respect and love. I have learnt to care for those weaker than me etc.

Doing voluntary work, even helping an old woman cross the street etc. blah blah

_________________________________________________

"You may have been born here in the UK, but you are not British, English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish. It takes more than birth in a certain territory to actually be a part of it."

Fair enough. The Non-Brits here should know he is referring to all Non-White, that is Hindus, Sikhs as well, prob Black people too. Vikrant prob knows about this, I have experienced racist taunts when I’m rolling with my mates who happen to be Sikh.

I know people like you, you make me laugh. You are a racist, no hiding that. Thanks for exposing yourself. Nazi!!!

"You should move back to Dar Al Islam, & I think you secretly know why & what is coming to this land."

I don't take orders from a racist/Nazi. I have every right to live here, my Old man was invited here and we have worked hard to make this country a better place. We pay taxes and all that, mate, how much do Non-White people contribute to the UK economy? I am British through and through!

Hey nice speaking to you Nazi, are you a member of the BNP (Nazi) party? How many Blacks and Browns have you stabbed in your life, oh, I forgot you're an Internet warrior.

Posted by: ia786

at October 28, 2005 11:21 AM

Hugh, thank you. Always glad to be able to assist.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 28, 2005 11:22 AM

Ia786: God has no sons, no partners or anything like that, these are blasphemous lies.

Hebrews 1:3 (NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. (John 13:13)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end... I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." (Revelation 22:13, 16)

Ia786: Tell me one Prophet that said God had a son, tell me one. Moses, no, Abraham, no etc. Just tell me one. You would have thought God would have told his Prophets he had a son.
Isaiah 53:5-7 (NIV) But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth

Ia786: Jesus was a Prophet of God, he did not die, he was raised to heaven, he never said he was the Son of God, he never said that he was God (Trinity).
The Trinity is a fairytale.
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

Ia786: Jesus is a Prophet, he is amongst the five greatest ones according to our traditions (Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad). Jesus never died, he is in heaven and will return to Earth soon (Inshallah).
Luke 23:46 (NIV) Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
He told them, This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, (Lk.24:46).

Ia786: The God you worship doesn't exist. The God you worship was never worshipped by previous Prophets, it is a fairytale. Please, I hope you see that, God is one.
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

By the way, why is it that of the "5 great prophets" you mention, that Mohummad is the only one that "Allah" says you are supposed to kill people for if they don't believe in him? I don't think Moses or Noah gave orders to kill anyone for not believing they were prophets. As a matter of fact, when the Romans were going to arrest Jesus, one of his apostles drew his sword in Jesus' defense. This was Jesus response:

Luke 22:49-51 When those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 50 And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him.

Hmmm...I bet Mohummad would've had quite a different reaction.

My heart gives me my direction; it just happens that direction is completely opposite to yours. Does that mean that we should hate each other? Does that mean that by your own religion that I should be killed? My Lord never told me to kill you because you didn’t believe in him. He beckoned me to reach out to you, to touch your heart and deliver his message. If you choose not to accept it, it isn’t my obligation to exact punishment upon you for it. This verse for me (as a Christian) is my keepsake against the onslaught of other religions:

“Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind” (Colossians 2:18)

Forgive me for saying it, but in my opinion Mohammad delighted in self-abasement by all of the above counts. He took his stand solely on his “visions” and not on the word of the Lord. His “scriptures” and “visions” were inflated by his fleshly mind; namely, his “revelations” that he could indulge in the most immoral fleshly acts such as polygamy, incest, rape, and pedophilia.
What is it that he promises you Ia786? He promises an afterlife of wonton sex with virgins, pedophilic homosexual encounters with young boys, jewels, etc. These are all “ways of the flesh”, not to mention that homosexuality is considered an abomination in the Bible, even in the Old Testament, in which Islam is supposed to believe.
My eternal prize is the exaltation of my Lord God and Jesus Christ, plain and simple. My prize is finally getting to see my Lord face to face and forever singing my praises upon him for giving me everlasting life in the radiance of his presence. I tend to believe in a “pay what you owe” mentality. It hardly seems that the Lord OWES me an eternity of wonton immorality for simply believing in him and killing in his name. It seems much more likely that I OWE him for his grace in granting me everlasting life free of sorrow and pain. I just can’t wait ‘till it’s time to pay up!

Posted by: Constantinople

at October 28, 2005 11:23 AM

Constantinople, to that I can only say Amen.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 28, 2005 11:34 AM

In John 13:34 Jesus said "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, just like I have loved you; that you also love one another." Jesus loved mankind enough to die for our sins, yet there are still those who choose to reject him. May God have mercy on them.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 28, 2005 11:39 AM

Bohemond_1069:

Thanks for that link (cult checklist). I've copied the original material on to hard disk for future use. Again, many thanks.

Posted by: johnb

at October 28, 2005 11:39 AM

"Yet the people here wish to paint ALL Muslims with the same brush, even though 99.9% Muslims across the World have never committed any terrorist attacks."
-- posted by ia786

As the Horror of Islam proceeds along its bloody path towards World Sharia via its metronomic succession of terrorist attacks, my estimate is that ia786's 99.9% will prove to be accurate.

After all, 1.2 million Good Active Moslems at any given moment should be enough to handle the killing and terrorizing required by the Two Root Sources of the Religion of Peace, the Koran and the Sunnah:

1) “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.” Koran 8:12

2) “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’” Bukhari:V4B52N220

******************

Given that Good Inactive Moslems accept God's commandments in the Koran (no. 1), including the commandment to follow Mohammed's "excellent pattern of conduct" (no. 2), it must therefore stand that they endorse murder and terror and are -- as members of ia786's vaunted 99.9% -- themselves violent and reprehensible people.

Unless I have somehow botched the "context" of the two sacred quotes above.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 28, 2005 11:50 AM

All religions are fantasies, dreamed up by ignorant savages to explain what to them is inexplicable. Later, when the inexplicable is no longer so, those fantasies serve to foster a sense of community amongst what are, mostly, solitary animals.

Fantasies arent by their nature a bad thing - but when they are the fantasies of Ted Bundy, they just might be.

Christians in the middle ages could easily be persuaded to go to war and to kill for their god, that much is patently obvious. But what is also patently obvious is that they no longer do this. Why? Well, you could posit that with increased literacy, availability of christian texts in local languages, it was no longer quite so easy for the local feudal lord to call the faithful to war in the name of god - "it doesnt say anything in here about killing for christ...".

The problem with the islamic fantasy, is that when the local jehadist shake comes round with his kran and hadith, and calls the faithful to make war for god, even if they have access to kran and hadith in their own language, or can read and understand the arabic, the faithful cant turn to the authentic texts and say, "beat it, you loon, it doesnt say anything killing in here..".

Peaceful muslims? Of course there are. Peaceful Islam? Well, while that "vast majority" of muslims live in denial that there is anything wrong with their fantasy, that it is not the nature of the fantasy itself that creates a whole world of problems, while that denial continues, the jehadist shake will always be able to tour the dusty villages with his fist length beard, his ak47 and his kran, and tell the kids at the madrassa how it tells to make war against unbelievers, and he's able to do it, not because he's talking to illiterates (although he most probably is): even if they can read and write (and even if they can read and understand the kran), he can clearly reference a wealth of material in the holiest of the holy books to justify war, killing, just so long as its 'unbelievers'.

Peaceful Muslims? Of course there are - but while they are in denial about the serious problems that their fantasy contains, they are no better than the boys with the C4.

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 28, 2005 12:11 PM

Chaz, if I may be so familiar, it shouldn't matter if the verses are taken "out of context". They are accurately translated from the Quran and according to what Muslims are taught to believe, they are eternally valid, so they should mean what they say for all eternity regardless of where they are and should be able to stand on their own merit. Since he cannot reconcile his religious beliefs with the facts,ia786 will probably choose to ignore your posts as he has ignored other posts in the past. However by doing that he falls into the trap of not defending Islam. If he argues against the verses Islam damns him as apostate. If he ignores them he is guilty of failing to defend Islam. Either way, Islam screws the poor guy. The only salvation in Islam that is guaranteed is if an Islamic warrior dies in battle fighting the Infidels and advancing Islam. Other than that it's a crap shoot as to whether his good deeds will out weigh his bad ones on judgement day. He himself said "I do realise that Islam has caused a minority to do terrible things." Not that the minority misunderstood the teachings of Islam, not that they failed to interpret the Quran and hadiths correctly and were misguided, but that "Islam has caused them" to do "terrible things". He admits that he knows that Islam is the root cause of the problem, yet still wants to deny the truth.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 28, 2005 12:17 PM

"Christians in the middle ages could easily be persuaded to go to war and to kill for their god, that much is patently obvious. But what is also patently obvious is that they no longer do this. Why?"
-- posted by thomas ato

Be careful handling that stick of Equivalence Dyamite, thomas ato!

Don't forget that Judeo-Christian scripture does NOT call for elimination of all other religions and establishment of World Sharia within a global Dar al Islam.

Also, as to why the Christian holy wars stopped, that was because they were about political-economic hegemony and not religous hegemony. So, once things got sorted out in Europe, that was the end of it.

Islam's drive to religious hegemony never stops. It re-energizes five times a day, and takes a big fat dripping booster shot every Friday afternoon. Worldwide.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 28, 2005 12:21 PM

Fantasies arent by their nature a bad thing - but when they are the fantasies of Ted Bundy, they just might be.

Peaceful Muslims? Of course there are - but while they are in denial about the serious problems that their fantasy contains, they are no better than the boys with the C4.

Posted by: thomas ato

at October 28, 2005 12:22 PM

From Susanp's post above attributed to Ali Sina explaining the
"exasperating futility of trying to make muslims recognize the intrinsic evil of Muhammand and Islam."

Exasperting futility INDEED!

At least some value may be found in Ia786's posts to serve as in situ illustrations of the futility of trying to find common ground with the Muslim -- you can read the endless requests from patient posters above asking him to respond to a series of challenges regarding Koranic texts, quotes from Imam's and Muslim religious leaders calling for death and destruction for Israel, America, England... Yet never, NEVER -- NOT ONCE, did this truth denying fanatic thrall of Islam respond to those posts -- Instead we have to suffer through endless re-postings -- claims that Christianity is just as bad, and statements like:

"I don't think that most of the people that post on DW are good people. I don't say that with arrogance, I say that with personal experience." -- Ia786 post above

So, in a typical Islamic fashion -- the Muslim shows up in the peaceful realm of the non-Muslim community -- lobs bombs amongst a bunch of peaceful 'infidels' and predictable mayhem ensues... When the Muslim is confronted by the irrefutable crimes of his religion, indeed his own fingerprints are on this bombing, he denies any connection, and challenges the 'infidel' to prove to him that Islam has anything to do with the crime...

Is anyone else uncomfortable by the requirements of the Muslim for us to become sufficiently acquainted with his bloody faith before we can conclude the epistemological link between Islam and violence? I don't need any other knowledge than what the pious murderers say themselves:
'I act thus and so because of my Islamic belief. I will murder the infidel, and go to heaven this very day.'

Are we foolish enough, even HERE, to permit the criminals and perps themselves to dictate to us what the legal framework will be before we can indict Islam for its obvious criminaltiy? Are we NUTS?

Another in-situ example which might be gleaned from Ia786's vintage Muslim performance is the way he magically turns himself into the pious fighter for right -- the aggreived person -- the perpetual victim:

"I know 100 % that Islam doesn’t allow acts like 9/11 and 7/7, I know that."

Aside from the obvious INSANITY of this truculent pronouncement, I have no doubt that this is what this particular "Muslim" thinks -- fervently and obviously. But what does this portend for the rest of us? In other words, if the world of Muslims is divided into those who are willing to murder as the Koran exhorts them to do, and those who are 100% certain that their religion has nothing to do with the murderers and exhorters to murder among them -- WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US ---

It is exactly the kind of intransigence from Ia786 at this site, and COUNTLESS others like him at other sites, in the Muslim media, and throughout the Muslim world that CONVINCES ME -- 100% that no accommodation will be possible with the Muslim foe.

I fail to see the point of engaging in conversation with them? To the extent that these 'conversations' impede or interfere with our quest to find a way to counter them and defeat them -- I think such conversations help the Muslim foe and hurts our interests...

I am most disturbed by the willingness of posters here who are still willing to stretch this inanity out ad infinitum... If a Muslim such as Ia786, conducting his own personal jihad of disruption and obfuscation, is able to create the log jams evidenced on this site, and if a single poster such is this is able to exploit the openness of this site to disrupt and undermine it (a microcosm of the exact methods of the Muslim ummah at large) then is there any hope that we can counter their various jihads against us ??? If people who are attracted to this site searching to find the truth about Islam are so easily driven into the ditch by posters like Ia786, is it possible for us to mount a successful campaign against the enemy's Jihad against us?

It's a little frightening, and it's clear that Ia786 takes heart at his power to destroy and disrupt -- Again -- how quintessentially Muslim of him!-- he revels in his success at diverting the discussion into his cul de sacs of silliness

I find it futile, frustating, and ominous...

Posted by: jsla

at October 28, 2005 1:28 PM

jsla: "If people who are attracted to this site searching to find the truth about Islam are so easily driven into the ditch by posters like Ia786, is it possible for us to mount a successful campaign against the enemy's Jihad against us?"

I can only say that you must keep in mind that we actually NEED him here. If we only open this site up to people who think like us, we are only proving ourselves to be the same single-minded, thoughtless drones that we acuse him of being. What validity can we make of our claim if we don't allow an opposing viewpoint in which to refute? What shall we resort to in that regard - "I know you are but what am I" statements?

Posted by: Constantinople

at October 28, 2005 2:46 PM

"Mohammed's god Allah was one of Mecca's 360 pagan idols."
-- posted by Bohemond_1069

And don't forget that Allah was a name change; early in the chronology of Koranic recitations God revealed to Mohammed that his personal name was Ar-Rahman.

I believe that God changed his personal name from Ar-Rahman to Allah around the time He also recalibrated the qiblah (direction of prayer) from Jersualem to the Qa'aba.

Only in Islam would a God change his name on the fly, and also revise what is to be revered by a fundamental sacrament.

If I didn't know better, I'd say that Mohammed was making up these Koranic Revelations as he went along, changing things on an as-needed basis.

Like, after rejection by the Jews, pointing the prayers at the Ka'aba in Mecca and changing God's pesonal name.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 28, 2005 3:12 PM

I agree as well, Constantinople, about the need for ia786's presence here.

His "reasoning", his evasions and his inability to respond to the challenges posed and the proofs presented, even after repeated requests, illustrates a great deal.

His oscillation between "hurt" and arrogance is instructive, as well.

In terms of his emotions he's no more than 6 or 7 years old

Posted by: John Palubiski

at October 28, 2005 3:12 PM

thomas h. --

DR. Pepper,

... the point is, the extreme stubbornness of jihadwatchers keeps making ia786 and KT think that you do.
About stubbornness:
I think there is a great difference between stubborn pointing at facts and stubborn dismissing facts. There is no real discussion without the former, or with the latter.

I already said previously that the onus is on ia786/KT to give an inch, not the jihadwatchers.

jihadwatchers: "Islam is essentially diseased and no cure is possible"
No, Islam is not diseased - Islam is the disease.

That's what I meant by essentially diseased.

Dr. Pepper, if you heard admission that, indeed, Nazism was very bad, BUT the trains were made to run on time...

Again, as I said repeatedly in previous posts on this same thread, I am distinguishing Islam as ideology from Islam sociologically as the total sum of Muslims: both are Islam, from different angles, and each one depends on the other. However, Islam sociologically is not, as you yourself claim to believe, completely horrible ("not all Muslims are bad").

Secondly, on the Nazi parallel, I agree that Islam as ideology is as bad or even worse than Nazism; however, Nazism as sociology was far more concentrated geographically & temporally of far shorter duration, and therefore far more able to marshal a lock-step mentality in that space than Islam as ideology is able to do through the vehicle of Islam as sociology. Islam as sociology is incredibly disparate, vast geographically, diverse culturally, and strung out over centuries of time and, though it obviously manifests extraordinary capabilities in marshalling too many Muslims to thoughts and behaviors that threaten modern human rights and their societies, it fails to marshal the kinds of lock-step threat (as my repeated examples of the absence of any multi-millions blitzkrieg storming out of the Muslim world and from within the Western world in which they have immigrated) that Nazism was able to muster.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at October 28, 2005 3:12 PM

For the record (for anyone keeping score), I do NOT consider ia786's prior statement --

I do realise that Islam has caused a minority to do terrible things.
Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 10:09 AM

-- to show a sufficient degree of "giving an inch" which I called for in my challenge to him and KT.

ia786's statement here sounds like there is some small group of perhaps a few hundred individuals located somewhere in one location, perhaps all wearing purple jumpsuits and long beards, who like Jim Jones or David Koresh have been influenced by their religion but then twisted it beyond its good essence and became motivated to do "terrible things".

ia786 needs to admit far more than that to gain our good graces and establish a more productive and friendlier atmosphere for debate. I leave it to him and KT to use their intelligence and imagination to determine what "far more" means, concretely.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at October 28, 2005 3:19 PM

Now I'll be honest with you mate as you seem more open. I don't think that most of the people that post on DW are good people. I don't say that with arrogance, I say that with personal experience. ia has the gall to say we are not "good people".... we never thought about your kind until the last few years, ia. We didn't care if you beat your wives or made them wear sacks, or if you killed each other, but when your co-religionists decided to make their move for world domination (they figure with the oil money soon to run out- they had better do it now!) we perked up and studied your motives and "religion". You can claim we are not good people if you want to but we are people who are tired of the headlines in the news being about how your people are slaughtering our people in some kind of "holy war". We will not forget or forgive. I guess only people who lay down and give up are "good people".

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Posted by: Carolyn2

at October 28, 2005 3:21 PM

And I am convinced that KT is in fact a muslim because he never has shown disrespect for islam, as he has to Christianity.
If he was truly just a LLLeftist, he would hate all religion.

Posted by: Carolyn2

at October 28, 2005 3:24 PM

"it fails to marshal the kinds of lock-step threat (as my repeated examples of the absence of any multi-millions blitzkrieg storming out of the Muslim world and from within the Western world in which they have immigrated) that Nazism was able to muster...."

It may fail to do so literally -- but surely you'd agree that Islam has been responsible for far more death, alienation, and cultural, spiritual, and corporal genocides than 10 Nazi regimes in its long bloody history --

Germany was defeated, and now only roving bands of estranged odious Nazis are seen to be a nuisance... Compare this with hundreds of millions of Muslims who happily identify with Usama Bin Laden and delight in his atrocities, as well as the, as yet, ellusive and coy "Muslim moderate" -- the supposed ally in our fight against the extremist.

If Ia786 is an example of this stamp, please take note that he expends 100% of his energy trying to convince non-Muslims that Islam has nothing to do with the horrors it's perpetrating as we speak -- Why isn't he spending this time excoriating the extremist even he admits exist? What possible change would happen among the murderers in Islam (and they are legion) if Ia786 convinced every JW/DW reader that he's telling the truth about Islam? NOT ONE. NOT ONE Jihadi would change his actions or his opinions -- IN FACT, if Ia786 and the millions of other Islamic apologists are successfull in their disinformation campaign, then the board will be set for sweeping victories from the pointier end of the stick, that is, his terrorist brethren who are willing to act on their beliefs. His posts are the posts of the propaganda department -- He is a minion of the Goebbels section of the aparatus.

See how this excerpt from Nazi history applies regarding Heir Dr. Goebbels:

As the chief propagandist of Hitler's National Socialist Democratic Worker's Party (NSDAP), Joseph Goebbels employed propaganda methods far ahead of his time to enable Hitler and the Nazi party to seduce their way to absolute power...

Ia786's posts are simply part of the drip drip drip we hear from CAIR, the head of the Arab League, various Islamic "ambassadors" to the West, every Imam in the West, and nearly every Muslim in the West... Allah above all things, laws of their God above all other laws, the Muslim creed supreme above all others --

We've seen a variation of this movie before -- I am not fooled...
We can only hope to see a similar destruction wrought on Islamism that we wrought on the Nazis 60 years ago. But with 1.3 Billion adherents, and an as yet invisible movement to crush the fascists in their midst, and with no end to the Muslim mouthpieces willing to do their part to further the cause of Islam -- I agree with a post by Hugh elsewhere on this site entitled "Victory is not inevitable..."

Damn right...

Posted by: jsla

at October 28, 2005 3:35 PM

Chaz, (aka "The Hammer of God") see this link for more information on the origin of how Mohammed created "Allah".
http://www.letusreason.org/Islam6.htm
Allah is the name of the only God in Islam. Allah is a pre-Islamic name coming from the compound Arabic word Al-ilah which means the God, which is derived from al (the) ilah (deity). It was also the name of the chief god among the numerous idols (360) in the Kaaba in Mecca. Today a Muslim is one who submits to the God Allah.

Islam means submission to (Allah), but originally it meant that strength which characterized a desert warrior who, even when faced with impossible odds, would fight to the death for his tribe. (Dr. M. Baravmann, The Spiritual Background of Early Islam, E. J. Brill, Leiden, 1972)

Many believe the word �Allah� was derived from the mid- eastern word �el� which in Ugaritic, Caananite and Hebrew can mean a true or false God. This is not the case, �The source of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning �God� (or a �god�), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity.� (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (ed. Hastings), I:326.)

According to the Encyclopedia of Religion, Allah corresponded to the Babylonian god Baal, and Arabs knew of him long before Mohammed worshipped him as the supreme God. Before Islam the Arabs recognized many gods and goddesses, each tribe had their own deity. There were also nature deities. Allah was the god of the local Quarish tribe, which was Mohammed's tribe before he invented Islam to lead his people out of their polytheism. Allah was then known as the Moon God, who had 3 daughters who were viewed as intercessors for the people into Allah. Their names were Al-at, Al-uzza, and Al-Manat, which were three goddesses; the first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah. Hubal was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likeness of a man whose body was made of red precious stones whose arms were made of gold. (Reference Islam George Braswell Jr.)

�Historians like Vaqqidi have said Allah was actually the chief of the 360 gods being worshipped in Arabia at the time Mohammed rose to prominence. Ibn Al-Kalbi gave 27 names of pre-Islamic deities...Interestingly, not many Muslims want to accept that Allah was already being worshipped at the Ka'ba in Mecca by Arab pagans before Mohammed came. Some Muslims become angry when they are confronted with this fact. But history is not on their side. Pre-Islamic literature has proved this.� (G. J. O. Moshay, Who Is This Allah? (Dorchester House, Bucks, UK, 1994), pg. 138).

History has shown Mecca and the holy stone al-Kaaba were holy sites for pre-Islamic pagan Arabs. The Kaaba in Mecca was formerly named Beit-Allah meaning House of Allah.

The Koran tells us that Mohammed drove the other idols away; he made one God now the only god and he was its messenger. He kept the Kaaba as a holy, sacred place and confirmed that the black stone had the power to take away man's sins. He obligated every believer to make a pilgrimage to the stone at least once in his lifetime. (Sura 22:26-37) No Old Testament saint ever had a pilgrimage to the Kaaba and kissed its black stone.

Mohammed used the name Allah which was the name of a specific idol without ever distinguishing it from the idol the Meccan�s were already worshipping. This was a modification of their former worship but never a complete break. He never did say for the people to stop their worship of the wrong Allah, for the right one.

Al-Lat which is a T at the end of the name of Allah, was represented by a square stone whose major sanctuary was in the city of Taif. In the sanctuary was a black stone in the town of Qudayd between Mecca and Medina. She was the goddess of fate, a female counterpart of Allah. Al-uzza was the goddess of east Mecca. It has been said there were human sacrifices made to her and Islamic tradition tells of a story of Mohammed�s grandfather almost sacrificing his son the father of Mohammed to her. What prevented this was his seeking counsel from a fortune teller which told him to ransom his son with one hundred camels. Muslims look to this as the will of Allah to bring Mohammed into existence. (Reference Muhammad husain haykal, Hayat mohammed)

�The name Allah, as the Qur'an itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa.� (Arthur Jeffrey, ed., Islam: Muhammad and His Religion (1958), p. 85.)

The literal name of Mohammed's father in Arabic is Abd Allah. His uncle's name Obred Allah. These names show the devotion of Mohammed's families pagan roots, and also prove that Allah was part of a polytheistic system of worship before Allah was made the supreme and only god from the other God's. This should be proof to the pre- Islamic root of the name of Allah to the Muslim. Remember they were pagans who used this name. He kept his family name above all the other names. Mohammad had good intentions in removing the people from their polytheistic worship however he did not go far enough in his reform.

Mecca was the place where the idol Allah was located, so the people would face in that direction when they prayed. Prior to Islam the people would pray 5 times a day facing Mecca (The Encyclopedia of Islam p.303) Prior to Islam's beginning each Arab tribe used Allah to refer to its own particular high god. This is why Hubal, the Moon god, was the central focus of prayer at the Kaabah and people prayed to Hubal and they used the name Allah. The crescent moon was the symbol of the moon God Allah (Hubal) and is still used as a symbol of Islam today (although they have changed the meaning to be from Mecca to the moon Islam will spread). Today there is hardly a Muslim that knows its ancient origin. History records it as an ancient pagan fertility symbol that is found throughout the Middle East. Mohammed smashed all the idols that led the people into idolatry but the black stone was kept which Muslims continue to kiss today. This was another practice that preceded Mohammad.

Mohammed made Allah into a single being who, unlike the Bible's God, has no son. Because of this portrayal there is no fellowship or love among the godhead before God created man. Creation and man therefore become a necessity for God to express His attributes or characteristic's. This God has never revealed Himself to man but revealed only His will. This God is so removed from man that it is impossible to know him in a personal way, he relates to man only through his will and law. It is a religion of obedience no different than any other.

To the Muslim God is strictly singular, all seeing, all hearing, almighty, He is the first and the last. But what differs is that he has no Son and he cannot be called Father who relates to His son in a unique way (Son and Father does not mean offspring in historic Christianity).

Of the 99 names of God in Islam, not one is �Father� or has a personal connotation. The difference is not to be overlooked. The God of the Bible is personal and wants an ongoing friendship with each of us. Islam portrays God as one who expects us to do our religious duty or He angers. There are rules to be obeyed and one can only please him but not know him personally. No Muslim would ever consider being able to have a personal relationship with him, by talking to him, and loving him. Jesus instead taught Christians to pray �our Father in heaven� (Matthew 6:9). Throughout the Old Testament God was real to the prophets who had him personally speak to them and they to him. �Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another by profaning the covenant of the fathers?� (Mal 2:10)

In Islam some state that if one memorizes the 99 names of Allah and repeats them he will get into paradise because they give the believer power, making them conscious of God. Neither the Koran nor the Hadith speak of these names in such a way. The Suras in the Koran begin with �In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful. Yet in practice Islam's god is portrayed as stern, harsh, having compassion on those who do right and deals severely with those who do not. To a Muslim the God of the Bible who is described as triune is offensive and pagan, reminding them of what Mohammed destroyed. They interpret this as 3 Gods and not a unified one. � They are unbelievers who say God is a third of three. No God is there but one God.� While Muslims affirm Jesus' virgin conception, they deny he had any pre-existence that would imply He is God. To call a prophet God is the ultimate in blasphemy to them. � Verily God will not forgive the union of other gods with himself.� This is a true statement, however if Jesus is who He said he is, the true God, then it is they who are in union with another than the true God.

Muslims claim that the name Allah can be found in the Bible. This is no different than what the Jehovah's Witnesses do for the name Jehovah. Allah is not called Yahweh once in the Koran but neither is Yahweh called Allah in the Bible. So they can't be the same God. Neither is the word Elohim which is applied to Yahweh over 2,500 times in the Bible used in the Koran. Neither is he called I Am, which He said to Moses would be His name forever.

The God of the Bible identifies himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacobs name is later changed to the name Israel, being the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. The God of the Bible calls Jerusalem the city of David and that the Messiah would descend from his lineage. Neither does the God of the Bible does not mention Mecca or Medina but instead Jerusalem 800 times. Yet Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran, which the Muslim claims as there own.

The God in the Bible is called the God of the Jews, an impossibility with Allah. They are called his chosen people, but they are not Allah's chosen. Allah commands the Muslim to not take the Jews or Christians as friends, Sura.5:51 disdains the Jews. Mohammed said, �The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them.� (Mishkat Al Masabih Sh.M. Ashraf pp.147, 721, 810-11, 1130). So how could Israel inherit the land or any of God's promises from Allah, if he is their God. Clearly he is not the same God of the Bible.

Muslims trying to prove their position from the Bible point to the Old Testament with the word alleluyah, interpreting the first portion of the word alle as Allah. The word [H]alleluyah is not a compound Hebrew word. It is not two words but a singular word meaning praise to Yahweh. (alle- praise, lu-to, yah-Yaweh). The beginning of the word is Hallel meaning praise. This has nothing to do with an Allah, and the last syllable of the word is a reference to Yahweh the God of the Bible, this is hardly any evidence for their assertions. They are also confusing Aramaic with Arabic. This is not unusual, as Muslims will often take words and meanings set in another language and culture and adopt them for proof of their own book or religion.

This word play only gets more ludicrous as they try to have Jesus saying the name of their God. When Jesus was on the cross they claim when he cried out Eli, Eli it was really is Allah, Allah. The New Testament was written in Greek, however it points us to him speaking the Aramaic language, not Arabic. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1 which read in full says, Eli, Eli Sabbathani �My God, My God why have you forsaken me.� What makes even less sense for this position is the fact that they don't believe that it was Jesus on the cross in the first place, but that another took His place. Some think it was Judas; so it was Judas crying out Allah, Allah?

The first Arabic translation of the Bible came into existence about the 9th century. Nowhere is the name of Allah found in the Old or New Testament. When Islam became the dominant political force people were coerced to use the name Allah for God or suffer the consequences from the hands of militant Muslims. Because of Islam's dominance Allah became the common name of God. The translators of the Bible gave in to the religious pressures and substituted Allah for Yahweh in the Arabic Bibles, but this is not the name of the God of the Hebrews, nor of the creator who made heaven and earth because of its source in paganism. His nature and attributes have only a few basic similarities and many more differences.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at October 28, 2005 3:41 PM

ia786 --

I hadn't read your latest response to me before I put my post just behind this one.

"I asked the people to show my how 9/11 and 7/7 can be justified in Islam, many here say that those that committed those crimes were good Muslims."

Spencer and others have provided countless articles on this site (and he and Bostom have written books demonstrating their case) that show how there is in the texts, tradition and religious history of Islam plenty of justification for the 911/7/7 attacks.

Spencer's point, which he has repeated over and over again, is that there is some seriously diseased wood inside the tree of Islam and if the claims of good Muslims that there is good wood there too is to work in the real world for reform, the diseased wood has to be admitted, recognized and analyzed -- and only then can it be cut out. Your comments & attitude seem to show that you are stuck in the stage of Denial, and as Spencer has said repeatedly, you can't cure a disease, you can't solve a problem, if you don't admit that disease or that problem is there. You stubbornly insist on marginalizing the problem of Islam as a peripheral wart that bubbles up on an extremity; but all the horrible data emanating out of the Muslim world now, for years, and for centuries indicates the problem goes deeper -- and nothing short of radical surgery and a major operation will solve it. That surgery can be performed perhaps more safely for the patient if good Muslims do it, because if non-Muslims are forced to do that surgery, it might end up killing the patient. But good Muslims will never be able to do that surgery if, like you, they stubbornly insist that there is no deep problem to operate on and excize.

Yet the people here wish to paint ALL Muslims with the same brush, even though 99.9% Muslims across the World have never committed any terrorist attacks.

Your .1% number rises if you include

1) the jihadists in Thailand, Philippines, Nigeria, Sudan, Algeria, Chechnya, Pakistan/Kashmir, Iraq, Israel

2) the Muslims in thousands of various locales all over the globe who commit practices (corporal punishments of gays, executions of adulterers and gays, corporal punishments of petty criminals, honor killings, repression of women, female genital mutilation, religiously mandated prostitution and quasi-slavery, repression of free thought & expression including criticism and/or ridicule of Islam), that go horribly against modern human rights.

The Muslims involved in #1 and #2 are also not committing "terrorism" as that has come to be known and defined. But those Muslims in #1 and #2 are perpetuating Islamically influenced types of social disease that contributes to the atmosphere of extremism and barbarity emanating out of the halo of Islam that, in turn, tends to encourage and nourish the terrorists in their motivations, goals, actions, and support.

I would add a #3: There are too many Muslims around the world who are at best, ambivalent about their feelings of Muslim terrorists, and at worst, lean to support or admire them. Most of these "too many" Muslims also have never committed terrorism. But they contribute to the general atmosphere that is making this problem around the world worse, not better.

Bottom Line: you, ia786, need to show that you recognize the problem of Islam is far deeper and broader than your statements to date imply. If there is a Good Islam, then good Muslims are going to have to make deep, painful cuts in order to salvage it from the cancerous malignancies that have insinuated themselves into and around its Heart.

So far, your statements amount to nothing more than a willingness to cut off an offending little wart on the edge of the little toe of Islam -- and a stubborn criticism of anyone who points to a far deeper and bigger problem in the patient than that little wart.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at October 28, 2005 3:45 PM

When I think back on all the blessings Islam
has given the world, I can't think of a single one.

Posted by: otterfisher

at October 28, 2005 3:57 PM

To DC Watson:

I am an atheist, as are many who contribute postings here. You have told me, and presumably many others, to "Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!" with regard to the advertisement of God on the American currency. Therefore, I felt I should comment.

1. Your approach to settling arguments might be acceptable in a theocratic dictatorship, but not in the U.S. I think most religious and non-religious Americans value democracy and free open debate enough that they would not agree with your "Sit Down and SHUT UP" method of dealing with dissent.

2. Even if 100% of Americans believed in God, why on earth would "God" need to be advertised on the state currency? Do you agree with the principle of the separation of church and state? Do you agree with the First Ammendment?

3. I think you need to look at the polls to see the more precise breakdown of the numbers and what is meant by "belief in God." Lots of people are just nominal Christians, others are deists, and still others are disbelievers who don't like the considerable social prejudices attached to the term "atheist" so they just check off some other category based on their family's religion.

You quoted from a friend's email (from a soldier):

"I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE...ONE NATION UNDER GOD,
INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!"

I have no problem if you or your friend wants to say that. I do have a problem if people are forced or pressured to say "UNDER GOD" when in fact they do not believe there is a God. Plenty of atheists in the U.S. have put their lives on the line for their nation. See
http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html
and
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/index.html (scroll down to Atheists in Foxholes section).

I will also add that some of the toughest and most uncompromising critics of hard-core Islam are atheists (e.g., Fallaci, Sam Harris, Ali Sina). I'm not sure why you would go into an off-topic pronouncement that really serves no other purpose but to annoy atheists by telling them to "shut up."

In your responses to ia786, you said (among other things):

"Who do you mooks think you are?"

I don't know what your intention was, but it looks like you intended to make a slur about all Muslim people. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously and contribute constructively to criticizing fundamentalist militant Islam, these insults are just counterproductive.

From what I’ve read, Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald recognize the importance of having everyone on board in this vast project. In a recent jihadwatch article, commenting on Ahmadinejad's outrageous remarks, Robert Spencer wrote:

“...All Cheeky Humans -- men, women, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, secular Muslims, whatever -- must unite to make sure his dream (of imperialist Islamism) is never realized.” (parentheses added).

We're all affected by the spread of Islamist imperialism, and we need to work together to stop it. The strongest contributions I've seen on this thread, including some hard-hitting critiques of militant Islam, do not insult Muslim people.

Posted by: Archimedes

at October 28, 2005 10:32 PM

So we aren't "good people" as in "muslims are the best of people", or we aren't "good" multiculti, pacifist, suicidal dhimmis, poised to surrender to the forces of darkness (Islam)?

I'm a fairly good judge of character and I think we are exceptionally "good" people! At least we can disagree with each other in a civilized way, with no hard feelings or grudges to bear. I often disagree with Nariz, but not about matters pertaining to Islam. On that subject we concur, but our political philosophies are polar opposites. Despite our differences of opinion, I am quite certain that he is a good person. It would never occur to me to think or suggest otherwise.

It is so utterly typical that you would consider us "bad" people because we point out the numerous flaws in Islam, particularly the onerous tenets that directly threaten our security and long term survival. Don't you think that the victims of a diabolical plan of destrution have the right to at least discuss their plight among themselves?! You obviously do not, which is concordant with the exemplary behavior of your prophet, who considered self-defensive measures to fend off butchering muslim armies to be "attacks against Islam", and justification for total extermination of unarmed, defenseless civilians.

I know it must be incredibly painful for you to read the many true and accurate explications of Islamic doctrine that you find here, written by filthy kafirs who cannot possibly understand the mysterious, magical, cryptic Qur'an, as only true believers are privy to its phantasmagorical essence. It's a shame that "ordinary" muslims are "not allowed" to interpret their own divine book of revelations, which putatively contains every iota of knowledge required by humanity for all time. What did muslims do before the great Satan invented the internet and "ask the imam" became available for emergency advice, like "is it halal to wear makeup when praying?" Or "is it permissible to befriend a Christian?" Or any number of other asinine, sophmoric inquiries that have absolutely nothing to do with worshipping God, but are crucial elements of the all-encompassing oubliette of Islam.

We are indeed "good" people but if we don't measure up to your criteria, you don't have to hang out with us.

Posted by: Susanp

at October 29, 2005 12:27 AM

Constantinople,

This discussion has nothing to do with what you are saying. However I will write abit:

"By the way, why is it that of the "5 great prophets" you mention, that Mohummad is the only one that "Allah" says you are supposed to kill people for if they don't believe in him? I don't think Moses or Noah gave orders to kill anyone for not believing they were prophets. As a matter of fact, when the Romans were going to arrest Jesus, one of his apostles drew his sword in Jesus' defense. This was Jesus response:"

Prophets came at different times, they all experienced different situations. When Moses came he was opposed by the Pharoh, God destroyed him. God destroyed those that didn't believe in Noah. etc. God is the best of Judges.

Now I remember Moses reaching the promised land, he told the believers (Muslims) to fight for it. Many rejected him, they told him to take his Lord with him and fight. Only a few believers stood by his side. That was a holy war, led by a Prophet.

Now you sound like a pacifist. God is not a pacifist, God is the all knowing and all merciful, you should know that sometimes the Will of God has to be forced. Materialism and Evil have gripped the World, the Anti-Christ will take leadership of this. When Jesus returns, he will DESTROY the Anti-Christ, he will destroy his Army and Kingdom. That is the will of God, I hope to be with Jesus when he is fighting evil. I hope you do too.

"My heart gives me my direction; it just happens that direction is completely opposite to yours. Does that mean that we should hate each other? Does that mean that by your own religion that I should be killed?"

Mate I don't hate you. I never have, never will. I believe that all religions lead to the same path.

"What is it that he promises you Ia786? He promises an afterlife of wonton sex with virgins, pedophilic homosexual encounters with young boys, jewels, etc. These are all “ways of the flesh”, not to mention that homosexuality is considered an abomination in the Bible, even in the Old Testament, in which Islam is supposed to believe."

Nope. Heaven is what it is, all Mankind is from there. A life of ease etc.

Now in Islam, we are told to worship God, for the sake of God. Its not about 'I worship you, you give me this' No. That is what is termed as hidden 'Shirk' as one is associating something with God.

We seek God for the sake of God, we love God because God is Great. In Islam, love of the Lord is the deepest form of love, it encompasses everything. It is deeper than love for material goods, even deeper than ones love for him/herself. Heaven is what it is because of God, 'ways of the flesh’ don't come into the equation. Why do I seek heaven? Because of God, not because of all the things associated with heaven.

Posted by: ia786

at October 29, 2005 1:41 AM

After all I posted you come up with this:

___________________________________________________

Unless I have somehow botched the "context" of the two sacred quotes above.

___________________________________________________

I'm disappointed.

Your post means absolutely nothing, you didn't even bother to address my points which I took time to write up and post.

Please do so and please, please don't waste my time.

Posted by: ia786

at October 29, 2005 1:43 AM

"All religions are fantasies, dreamed up by ignorant savages to explain what to them is inexplicable. Later, when the inexplicable is no longer so, those fantasies serve to foster a sense of community amongst what are, mostly, solitary animals."

Even if they are, so what?

If someone wants to believe in Heaven and Hell what has it got to do with you? I believe in a religion and me following this religion has no negative consequences for anyone in the World.

I practise my faith properly and peacefully.

So what if you think its a fantasy, go ahead debate if you feel so strongly but people have a right to live as they want, you can’t force your ‘fanatical’ beliefs on anyone.

Posted by: ia786

at October 29, 2005 1:46 AM

"Spencer and others have provided countless articles on this site (and he and Bostom have written books demonstrating their case) that show how there is in the texts, tradition and religious history of Islam plenty of justification for the 911/7/7 attacks.

Spencer's point, which he has repeated over and over again, is that there is some seriously diseased wood inside the tree of Islam and if the claims of good Muslims that there is good wood there too is to work in the real world for reform, the diseased wood has to be admitted, recognized and analyzed -- and only then can it be cut out. Your comments & attitude seem to show that you are stuck in the stage of Denial, and as Spencer has said repeatedly, you can't cure a disease, you can't solve a problem, if you don't admit that disease or that problem is there. You stubbornly insist on marginalizing the problem of Islam as a peripheral wart that bubbles up on an extremity; but all the horrible data emanating out of the Muslim world now, for years, and for centuries indicates the problem goes deeper -- and nothing short of radical surgery and a major operation will solve it. That surgery can be performed perhaps more safely for the patient if good Muslims do it, because if non-Muslims are forced to do that surgery, it might end up killing the patient. But good Muslims will never be able to do that surgery if, like you, they stubbornly insist that there is no deep problem to operate on and excize."

Say it.

And I have asked many times to show me how 9/11 7/7 can be justified, nothing.

I wrote a post that clearly condemned 9/11 7/7, I was ignored. Why? Why do you think? Its obvious.

If you have anything, bring it.

__________________________________________________

"Bottom Line: you, ia786, need to show that you recognize the problem of Islam is far deeper and broader than your statements to date imply. If there is a Good Islam, then good Muslims are going to have to make deep, painful cuts in order to salvage it from the cancerous malignancies that have insinuated themselves into and around its Heart.

This is it. I ask for one thing and I get nothing.

Verses thrown about left, right and centre. I told you why they are not valid, I posted why the radical movement that does so is heretical. I told you that those responsible for 7/7 are not regarded as martyrs. Still you cannot answer.

What is the deeper problem you are talking about, let me see:

Muhammad was no Prophet, we worship another God, Islam is a false religion, yap yap.

That means nothing and is irrelevant.

Can you admit one can practise Islam peacefully?

People like you say there is a disease because you simply don't like Muslims or Islam. On top of this how many here like to see Muslim countries doing badly.

How many here accept that the Palestinian should even have a state.

How many are willing to say the Palestinians, Chechens or Kashmiris have a right to exist?

How many here would love to see Makkah nuked?

Its obvious. Now I will say this to everyone here. If you have anything on Islam, bring it. Islam is there for everyone. A lot of the people here just beat around the bush. If you have anything to say, say it. Why is it that you have no following? Why?

I’ve heard debates between the Muslims scholars and Non-Muslim fanatics, the fanatics are always beaten. Always. If you have anything bring it. Its evident from this thread that you have nothing. Just a deceptive nature, that is all.

Posted by: ia786

at October 29, 2005 2:02 AM

LOL.... you said the same crap:

I'm still waiting.

This is for everyone here.

Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran.

Name me one thing.

Posted by: ia786 at October 27, 2005 11:47 AM

Thanks to Quran's call to murder Jews and Christians, Daniel Pearl, a Jew, was butchered, 'on camera' in Karachi, Pakistan.

Thank you!

Obviously, you are suffereing from obsessive, compulsive 'Show me one/Name one thing' disorder.

ia786, get help.

Posted by: Alert

at October 29, 2005 2:06 AM

"I'm still waiting.

This is for everyone here.

Name me one thing you had to change, tell me anything negative that you have experienced that can be traced back to behaviour that is encouraged by the Quran.

Name me one thing."

Still waiting.....

____________________________________________________

""Give me any talk from a respected Muslim religious figure (Mufti) calling for the bombing of London or New York. Just one. Give me one talk by a senior Islamic Mufti calling for murder, looting and stealing, just one."

Still waiting......

Posted by: ia786

at October 29, 2005 2:07 AM

Informed Christian,
You are true to your name. I enjoyed your earlier posts.

Thanks also for contributing the Warraq materials and the PEW results. One thing about those PEW results: The percentages are different depending on how people answered the question (responses were not just dichotmous), but I think what you’ve described does give a good overall picture. We posters are at least educating each other in this exercise.

-----------------------------------------
You said,
“You forgot to mention Ibn Warraq and Hugh Fitzgerald, the author of this article that this thread is about.”

Definitely they should have been listed! (No slight intended).

-----------------
You cited:
“Archimedes ( http://profile.typekey.com/AlexandriaLibrary ) read this”

Sorry, nothing comes up on my server for that link.

-----------------------------
You said:
“Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights.”

Agreed so far.

You said:
“Jefferson wrote: I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1) The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion.”

This is a question of interpretation. How does one define freedom of religion? In my view, freedom of religion entails freedom to choose a religion among religions, or to choose no religion. Should someone so wish to be free from religion, why not? The spirit or intent of this, I think, is to allow people to believe/disbelieve what they want with regard to spiritual matters, and not to have the religions of the society forced upon the individual. I think this is what Jefferson intended. Otherwise, why use the word “free” at all? I think free and informed consent, and the conditions necessary to establish it, are critically important. I also believe it is necessary for there to be freedom in choosing or rejecting various parts of the scripture, if one is religious (e.g., freedom from certain passages in the Bible or the Koran).

The early presidents on religion:

George Washington. (No clear position. Washington was notoriously mum on the subject. Washington was, according to his pastor, a Deist).

“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.”
-John Adams.

“Religions are all alike—founded upon fables and mythologies.”
-Thomas Jefferson.

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
-James Madison.

--------------
You said:
“The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations.”

I hope they picked the good verses. (I’m quite serious).
http://www.evilbible.com/

-----------------------------------
You said:
“There is no such thing as a pluralistic society; there will always be one dominant view. Someone's morality is going to be taught -- but whose?”

I agree that a nation (or state) has to have one overarching set of laws and one set of moral principles. These must be subject to criticism and revision, permitting improvement. Blind faith and obedience to (an interpretation of) a fixed set of divine commands can hamper this process.

I generally don’t view pluralism (or multiculturalism) as constituting a form of ethics; it has ethical implications, but it is not ethics. I certainly don’t believe that all religions are equally morally valid.

-----------------------------
You cited:
“In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." The Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism to be a religion. The American Humanist Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained ministers. Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools?”

This is a legal definition. I think the proper definition of religion should be left up to the experts on religions. (Recently, a court in a U.S. jurisdiction decided that atheism is a religion. If so, I suppose anything could be a religion legally). Secular humanism seems so broad that almost anything could be thrown into that category.

As far as I’m concerned, I separate ethics from divine commandments. (I.e., I do not view divine command theory as a sound theory of ethics). If God existed, and he told me to go kill a bunch of people, I still would be responsible for the action, and therefore would have to decide beforehand, through knowledge and moral reasoning, whether this was appropriate. And I would (and should) be responsible in this world for the consequences. If I had to argue and reason with God in making the decision, I would do so, just like Moses did. (And curiously enough, Moses did so in apparent contradiction to the usual policy of mandatory obedience, e.g., compare that with Abraham being ordered (under test) to kill his son). Well, I don’t hear God. The point is that what is good morally is independent of divine authority, even if divine authority exists. People can be held accountable in this world; their gods cannot.

Posted by: Archimedes

at October 29, 2005 4:51 AM

"Please do so and please, please don't waste my time."
-- posted by ia786

Quit telling me what to do. One of the many problems with you Moslems is that, as supremacists, you assume authority of infidels, and that's a dream. Here in the West we try to be polite.

*****************

"You made a claim, no evidence to support it, just some verses and some tragic incidents."
-- posted by ia786

Just some verses? Wasn't the challenge to look for murder-encouragement in the Koran? Isn't the Koran composed of nothing but verses? Your half-assed "out of context" dodge without explanation reeks of down-market lawyering.

*****************

"In Islam, one is not supposed to Interpret the Quran on their own. This is not allowed. This is why we have Imams, Alims, Muftis etc."
-- posted by ia 786

Then you agree that an international felony law should be passed immediately whereby all Korans are to be collected immediately, and handed out to Moslems only when they're in the mosque and under the supervision of a holy man who understand this great document.

This will avert some of the horrible mix-ups we've been experiencing the last 1,390 years. Hurry up, we infidels are dying out here!

Oh, and can you explain away all the Imams, Alims, and Muftis, etc. publicly calling for mass murder based on the Koran? Who is to supervise these adult children?

****************

"I have been to Mosque all my life, I have done what the Imam tells me to do, be kind to your parents and those around you etc. I have never been told to kill anyone"
-- posted by ia786

Oh yeah? Let's try these on for size:

P * B * U * H

Koran 2:216 Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims).

Koran 4:75 What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?

Koran 4:76 Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah.

Koran 8:5 Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause.

Koran 9:5 When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers wherever you find them.

Bukhari V4B53N386 Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission.

Muslim C9B1N31 I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah.

Tabari VI:138 Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting.

P * B * U * H

ia786, by your own statement you hath forsook the Word of God (Koran) and Mohammed's Sunnah (Hadith, Sira, and Tarikh).

You're no Mohammedan; you're an apostate.

What went wrong with you? Did you get stuck with a senile Imam? Or are you soft and you can't work up a manly bloodthirst and do your God's bidding?

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 29, 2005 7:12 AM

"Leave Islam ia786 if you are naive. I think you are just lying here about being against terror and pretending to be "good" and stuff."
-- posted by Informed Christian

IC, sad as it may be, he's not pretending. He actually can't see the obvious, because his Moslem training has occluded his consciousness from visibility to the inconsistency, hypocrisy, and bloodthirst upon which Islam is constructed.

In that sense, Islam (read: submission or surrender) is a form of cognitive stupidity. This probably explains why Moslems have turned in such a lackluster performance in academics and the arts & sciences over the past 1,390 years.

Islam is a study in blindness, ignorance, hypocrisy, ugliness, misogny, dishonesty, supremacism, hate, murder, and conquest.

Oh, and they like to take your women and money, too.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 29, 2005 7:22 AM

"I told you that those responsible for 7/7 are not regarded as martyrs. Still you cannot answer."
-- posted by ia786

Oh yeah? Those poor Good Active Moslems were only doing their duty on 7/7. I know this cuz God tells me so:

P * B * U * H *** P * B * U * H *** P * B * U * H

Koran 33:22 Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme (and have been martyred) fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle.

P * B * U * H *** P * B * U * H *** P * B * U * H

For you to deny this commandment in verse 33:22 is a slap in God's face.

For you to deny the goodness and blessedness of the act of murdering dozens of English infidels is a kick in the knee to the Jihad and the devout heroes who carry out this sacred duty.

We need more soft-on-infidels Moslems like you.

Say, you're not taquiyya-izing us, are ya?

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732

at October 29, 2005 7:46 AM

"Leave Islam ia786 if you are naive. I think you are just lying here about being against terror and pretending to be "good" and stuff."

........yeh....right.......(?!?!?)

_________________________________________________

"Quit telling me what to do. One of the many problems with you Moslems is yap yap yap, and that's a dream. Here in the West we try to be polite."

Is that so, well I am from the West, I am polite however I don't recall Westerners laughing at people that die in Earthquakes half way across the World.

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""You made a claim, no evidence to support it, just some verses and some tragic incidents."
-- posted by ia786

You now change the challenge? Islam is not just the Quran, it is the hadith, the words of the classical scholars etc. Show me where Islam, that is everything that Muslims believe in, EVRYTHING, something that would finish this once and for all, show me where Islam encourages Muslims to commit atrocities such as 9/11 7/7 etc. Show me how Islam commands me to steal, loot and murder, I'm still waiting.

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""In Islam, one is not supposed to Interpret the Quran on their own. This is not allowed. This is why we have Imams, Alims, Muftis etc."
-- posted by ia 786

This will avert some of the horrible mix-ups we've been experiencing the last 1,390 years. Hurry up, we infidels are dying out here!

Oh, and can you explain away all the Imams, Alims, and Muftis, etc. publicly calling for mass murder based on the Koran? Who is to supervise these adult children?"

You are really childish, you know that?

Islamic learning cannot be washed away like that, you can't bypass it if you expect people to take you seriously. In Islam we are taught modesty, one never talks about religion unless he has studied it. Now you are like modernist Muslims (Osama, Wahabis), you (listen to this) take verses out of context and use them to justify mass murder!!

You are beating around the bush and not saying anything, show me one example where a respected Mufti has called for Mass murder and atrocities like 9/11 7/7 just one.

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""I have been to Mosque all my life, I have done what the Imam tells me to do, be kind to your parents and those around you etc. I have never been told to kill anyone"
-- posted by ia786

Oh yeah? Let's try these on for size:"

Same old material.

I refuted everything you posted earlier. I know you read it.

Next.

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(The interesting part)

"a786, by your own statement you hath forsook the Word of God (Koran) and Mohammed's Sunnah (Hadith, Sira, and Tarikh).

You're no Mohammedan; you're an apostate.

What went wrong with you? Did you get stuck with a senile Imam? Or are you soft and you can't work up a manly bloodthirst and do your God's bidding?"

So I am a Non-Muslim right!!! Oh yeh, does that mean you will leave me alone as with all those Muslims across the World that practise Islam peacefully? Will you let us be???

What!, No!!! What do you mean, you want us to become terrorists, okay.......I've got ya!!! Hypocrite!

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""I told you that those responsible for 7/7 are not regarded as martyrs. Still you cannot answer."
-- posted by ia786

Oh yeah? Those poor Good Active Moslems were only doing their duty on 7/7. I know this cuz God tells me so:"

Really, so the words of Muftis and leading scholars from around the World mean nothing....okay....since you know so much about Islam why don't you replace them. I'm sure with all those years of learning, studying and memorising you will do great (sarcasm)

(And you wonder why no one takes you seriously)

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"For you to deny the goodness and blessedness of the act of murdering dozens of English infidels is a kick in the knee to the Jihad and the devout heroes who carry out this sacred duty.

We need more soft-on-infidels Moslems like you.

Say, you're not taquiyya-izing us, are ya?"

So here we have a moderate claiming that terrorism is wrong and that murdering innocents completely wrong, yet we have some extremist trying to convince him that what happened on 7/7 was good, not forgetting that my brother could have easily died on that day.

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Chaz MarteL 732, I'm disappointed. Your points were weak, you were too easy.

You stamp your feet and make alot of noise but under it all you have...…….nothing.

You can challenge any Muslim scholar at any time, go for it, you will be humiliated and you know it, just as you made a fool out of yourself here. I actually laughed while reading your posts, thought you might want to know that.

The point to ponder about is the fact that you want people like me to become terrorists, you want more attacks. Life doesn’t mean anything for Internet Generals like you, its a game. You need to get a life.

It is my right to expose Islamic extremism, it is my right to battle extremism, Its my duty to show that Islam forbids all crimes and terrorist attacks, if that upsets you, too bad.

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Now I'm going to make some assumptions about you, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong:

-there should be no Muslims or Mosques in the West

-Brown/Black Muslims must be deported (Whites can stay)

-Aid should be cut off to poor Muslim countries

-Palestine has no right to exist

-the Chechens and Kashmiris have no right to exist

-Islam and the Koran should be banned.

-The US should bomb all Muslim countries

-Makkah should be nuked

oh and this - "Islam is a study in blindness, ignorance, hypocrisy, ugliness, misogny, dishonesty, supremacism, hate, murder, and conquest."

Please correct me if anything of these are wrong.

if you have anything on Islam, anything, bring it.

You just got demolished.

Next.

Posted by: ia786

at October 29, 2005 10:38 AM

"You now change the challenge? Islam is not just the Quran, it is the hadith, the words of the classical scholars etc."
-- posted by ia786

No, *you* stipulated the Koran, and I gave you several undeniable examples of Koran murder-encouragement, none of which has been knocked down by you.