Does Suffolk allow electronic calls to prayer?

Posted by: t-ham at November 8, 2005 7:42 AM

Every year, just as the clocks go back, there is a story about Christmas being cancelled. Some years ago Birmingham City Council coined the ghastly name 'Winterval' to cover all the festivals taking place from October to January. This was not actually a substitute for Christmas, but it was interpreted as such, not least by the then Bishop of Birmingham (cue for my favourite smutty limerick). The Bishop's name was Mark Santer; perhaps he should have declared an interest.

Christmas does not fit in with its “core values of equality and diversity”.

That old chestnut.

Posted by: Interested at November 8, 2005 7:55 AM

"Core values of equality and diversity"?

What "equality"? The only kind that makes sense is equality before the law. There is no other kind of equality. "Equality" of all beliefs, so that, for example, the major and historic faiths of England are not entitled to any special attention or support? Surely on sonething like the same thoery as that used by some (in a case with a great many differing opinions) in the "Pawtucket" case (Lynch v. Donnelly) challenging as unconstitutional, under the Establishment Clause, a Christmas display on city land, one in which the Supreme Court held that the creche scene had been leached of its religious content by the close proximity of Santa Claus or Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer -- I forget which).

As for "diversity," this absurd word, and absurder idea behiind it, should be retired once and for all. What's so wonderful about mandated "diversity" anywhere? I don't care if every single member of the MIT mathematics faculty consists of Russian Jews (it probably doesn't), or if the Graduate School of Architecture at Berkeley or Stanford is entirely staffed by people of Japanese or Chinese descent (it probably isn't). No one should pay attention to such things, as long as the criterion of merit has not been in any way diluted (and that includes the academic equivalent of the Test Oath)Why should I, or you, or anyone? Who needs diversity as a mandated thing? It will happen, where it will happen, if it should happen. And who really thinks that the outward and visible signs mean anything? And besides, A and B may be identical twins, but they are just as diverse as they could possibly be. But to push it always and everywhere is to rip even further, right to shreds, whatever remains of the social fabric, riven by resentments over this, and to destroy what remains as well of the idea of merit as the only legitimate criterion, especially where it most matters, when it comes to staffing universities, or hospitals, or airline crews, where the failure to maintain standards has consequences far more grave than the mere loss of efficiency or lessening of profits.

Posted by: Hugh at November 8, 2005 8:07 AM

This kind of nonsense, like the piggy business, is generally driven by politically correct local councils rather than Muslims or 'ethnic minorities' themselves.

Hugh, you're right about equality and diversity. Focus on equality of outcome, impossible because human beings are not equal, has reduced equality of opportunity - comprehensive education is a prime example of this. And as for diversity, you just end up with a multi-ethnic, polysexual, transgendered environment in which everybody must say and think the same thing.

And what are 'core values', anyway? I've never had any, and this has done me no harm.

Posted by: Interested at November 8, 2005 8:57 AM

Fine, we will just shop in a neighbourhood that DOES have CHRISTMAS light. Let's see how these morons will feel when their politically correct wallets are empty.

Posted by: cruzado at November 8, 2005 9:14 AM

When I grew up in Europe there were very few Mohammedans around, the first I saw was in the early sixties.

By myself, I wasn't religiously inclined and I didn't care much for church-bells then.

Nowadays, when I visit Europe, I do enjoy the sound of church-bells, I do appreciate the grand cathedrals and whatever is left of our culture, and I feel a need to protect my heritage.

Perhaps this is something we have in common with Oriana Fallaci, with many more who are not religious, but treasure our heritage.

It is well worth making efforts to protect it from the barbarians.

I think you feel that way too, Mr. Fitzgerald?

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 8, 2005 9:26 AM

King,

I think your comment begs the question. This is not about commercialization, but celebration. Let me tell you a little about myself. I'm Jewish and attended public schools in Chicago many years ago. At that time, it was still legal to sing Christmas carols in public schools. I'm just speaking for myself here, but I always participated in the caroling and always enjoyed it. I never felt excluded or "different." I loved the music and the holiday spirit. Some years later, I participated in a "Do-it-Yourself" Messiah sponsored annually by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. It was great. I'd guess at least 25% of the participants were Jewish, too. I still love the Messiah and the great old Christmas carols, the ones with the religious themes. I think they are some of the most beautiful songs ever created. My point is that we can celebrate religious holidays without feeling insulted or excluded if we want to. It's just a question, if you don't mind my saying this, of "tolerance."

Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at November 8, 2005 10:06 AM

Ah, the King is back.
So lemme see, the scum in the Middle East, otherwise called the Emirs, Sheikhs, Kings and Sultans can spend millions of dollars in celebrating their birthdays (as national days LOL), spend even more money on madrassas in Pakistan, Indonesia and I am sure even the West etc.
Whereas, an age old tradition of celebrating Christmas as a month of happiness is commercialization. Have you ever stopped to look into the eyes of kids (Xians, Jews, Hindus...) when they admire these beautiful times? Or do you have any idea how much fun it is to get the town painted in Christmas colours (I come from a small town where everyone used to pitch in to decorate the Main Street)?
Of course, I understand. If this money were diverted to funding terrorism in the West, Kashmir or Israel, you could have attained the 72 young virgin boys in Heavenistan, right?

Posted by: MohdIs Satan at November 8, 2005 10:22 AM

Time to haul out my illuminated Christmas pig lights for the festive season - it fits in with my "core values".

Two years ago in Toronto, some faceless bureaucrat decided that the annual Christmas tree in front of city hall would be renamed a "holiday tree" for the same reasons. The mayor at that time, Mel Lastman, was Jewish. He would have none of this nonsense declaring that it was a Christmas tree, everyone knew it was a Christmas tree and it would be called a Christmas tree. End of story.

Posted by: johnb at November 8, 2005 10:43 AM

JohnB - is it true that in Canada, you're not supposed to say 'Merry Christmas' but 'happy holidays'?

Just something I heard.

Posted by: Interested at November 8, 2005 10:49 AM

I would love it if all of the Hindu, Buddist, and Jewish communities throughout the UK would let their local councils know that they are not in the least offended by the lights, by the carols, or even by the nativity scenes. Let it be made perfectly clear exactly who is "offended" and let them explain why that is.

Hugh is so right about the pc leftist god of "diversity". In recent US history, it has resulted in overt discrimination against Jews in academia. Now, it results in overt discrimination against Asians (and I'm not talking about the leftist version of "Asians" who all seem to be from pakistan)

Posted by: Infidel33 at November 8, 2005 10:54 AM

And the beat goes on as overly decent dhimmis' try not to offend muslims at the cost of not celebrating their own culture.

Yes they bend over, not to pray but to be almost masochisticaly kicked in the ass by an ideology who does not respect, but actually hates the Christian principals, and celebrations that they espouse and stand for.

Does anyone hide the traditions of Ramadan? No,in fact the Whitehouse as well as other western leaders even celebrates this Muslim event with them. Do Muslim leaders come and celebrate Christmas with Christians?

Yes multiculteralism is alive and well, but the only adherants to its foolish endeavors are non muslims,infidels, what have you.

Yes keep bending over and letting the anti semetic muslims kick your butts, because that is exactly what they will do,and are doing.

OH DO THE IGNORANT FOOLS RUSH IN!!!

Prince Charles: Are you listening?

Posted by: Mackie at November 8, 2005 10:56 AM

leftist version of "Asians" who all seem to be from pakistan

In British English, 'Asian' is the term used for people from the Indian sub-continent, not people from the Far East, as seems to be the case in American English. We used to call those people 'Orientals', but now we'd probably say 'South East Asians'.

So I don't think it's a political thing, more of a tomato/potato thing.

Posted by: Interested at November 8, 2005 11:07 AM

Gee.

I could have SWORN someone or other - not quite an islamofascist apologist, but close - was telling me just the other day that Christmas was not being suppressed in the West.

It must just be me, 80% of the population, and this story that believes all that.

Silly me.

Prophet Geoff [bbuh]

Posted by: Geoff at November 8, 2005 11:37 AM

Interested, thanks. I'll be more careful.

Posted by: Infidel33 at November 8, 2005 11:45 AM

People,

lets be a bit more practical here.

No matter what we believe in as UK denizens, we unfortunatly have to pay something called 'council tax'. It is not cheap, adding about 120 pounds to the monthly household bill (or roughly, food money for 1 person for a month).

And, those said lights are payed out of this! (GRRR!)

So, _any_ sort of festive lights ought to be either payed for by those that like this sort of thing[1], or, the shops that want to advertise
their christmas goodies.

Bah humbug!

Imli, scrooge's niece.

[1] No-one will stop you from covering your entire house with of one of those ugly huge lit up Santas on sale at B&Q, tho, some people (like me for example) also feel there ought to be an ASBO for that kind of gross taste as well. *cackle* :P

Posted by: Imli at November 8, 2005 11:58 AM

Interested:"And what are 'core values', anyway? I've never had any..."

Boy are you lucky. I had a real big one once and had to go to the Dr and have it removed. It took months to recover, but I'm ok now...well all except the nervous twitch in my lip...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 8, 2005 1:06 PM

One of the ironic outcomes to the pursuit of 'diversity-at-any-cost' within an institution is oftimes the descent of that institution into the realm of mediocrity. In the end, it becomes unattractive even to the most highly qualified applicants among those racial or ethnic groups targeted for 'greater inclusion' in the first place.

Posted by: NonProphet16 at November 8, 2005 1:18 PM

Interested:

Re: "happy holidays"

No. OTH, when sending out greeting cards to business acquaintances at Christmas something like Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings is common. No big deal since, at least in Toronto anyway, the person on the receiving end is just as likely to be from India (Hindu or Sikh), China (Bhuddist) or a long standing Jewish Canadian citizen. No one takes offense any way. Although Mel Lastman (referred to above) was a bit of an idiot (I think he may have been suffering a touch of dementia in his last term - seriously), most people think he was right on with the "Holiday tree" episode. Some people get it, some don't. Mr. Lastman got it right that time. It's really all about common courtesy. Right?

Posted by: johnb at November 8, 2005 1:42 PM

johnb:

Mel was always a little off the wall to say the least (think his affairs with women employees while Mrs. Lastman was having trysts of her own), but North York Municipal Council was a relatively safe sandbox for him to play in. I guess age and the major case of Hep C he caught because of a negligent doctor didn't help matters.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 8, 2005 2:08 PM

You've got to be kidding me! They actually banned Christmas lights? Oh well, I guess they'll ban the tooth fairy too.

Posted by: delia7 at November 8, 2005 6:15 PM

Why is it these folks want all kind of inclusion including Ramadan and prayer rooms etc. but walk like they have a stick up their arse when it comes to "embracing" our religious observances? Multiculturalism is a two way street amigo...

Posted by: Kemaste at November 8, 2005 7:55 PM

Infidel 33 would love it if all of the Hindu, Buddist, and Jewish communities throughout the UK would let their local councils know that they are not in the least offended . ..

I'm not in the UK, but will make every attempt to make all my holiday purchases exclusively in the most festive shops - and let the shop owners know why.

Posted by: miira at November 8, 2005 8:50 PM

Wait a minute. Don't muslims still celebrate and don't politicans like Bush have Eid celebrations in the white house and other places?

Even in Australia politicians turn up for Eid celebrations, but it's ok not to celebrate christmas?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 8, 2005 9:11 PM

Waterdragon:

Mel was a strange charcter - always was. Think of his "Bad Boy" furniture days. North York was the best run constituents of Metro Toronto but you are right, I think it was the hepatitis C (contracted through open heart surgery and tainted blood) that did him in. That and a giant ego.

Posted by: johnb at November 8, 2005 10:51 PM

I was in Lowestoft a few weeks ago. It's a down to earth port that still has a substantial working fishing and shipping industry. It's not a haven of the PC gang. I doubt this has the support of any local people.

I come to this thread late; do I gather that KT has been deleted from this and other threads?

One of the things keeping me busy has been that I am preparing a repertoire of Christmas carols to play during the celebrations when the Christmas lights are formally turned on in our town shortly. We are having a parade, I anticipate the Morris dancers will perform (I hope to be well away from them, their musicians are very good, I am not) and the Boys and Girls Brigade Band and several others will march.

Rejoice. Unto us a child is born.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 9, 2005 3:17 AM

And they have not tried to tamper with this yet.
http://www.norway.org.uk/culture/misc/christmastree.htm
Although there is very little about this year's tree on the about London websites yet. And the Mayor of London site still only has last years information about how energy saving the tree was, and how Blue Peter supervised it being re-cycled, so its was still PC controlled. Actually I don't have a problem with PC when it's about re-cycling.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 9, 2005 4:03 AM

Lambeth has long been a haven for the PC multi-culti politbureau of the loonier elements of the left. Nothing they do surprises me anymore. On this occasion though, Muslim councillors were behind the banning. Anyway, who wants to set foot in a hell-hole like Lambeth? I'll be doing my shopping in Oxford Street.

Posted by: londongirl at November 9, 2005 7:13 AM

Londongirl - do you have a link for muslim councillors being behind the banning? Such would prove highly illustrative, I believe.

I wonder if I still have my "Ho-Ho Lite-Up Christmas Pig"?

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 9, 2005 11:59 AM

Geoff -

http:www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1627_xmas_lights_ban.htm.

It was a junior Muslim councillor who hasn't been named. I heard an interview on Radio London with Vanessa Feltz with the head of the council who was already backpeddling after realising what an idiot he was starting to look. The Daily Mail website is also running a column naming and shaming councils who are trying to put a damper on Christmas. The lastest thing is that the Home Office wants to cut funding for a carol service which is held in St Martin's in the Field every Christmas for families of murder victims on the grounds that it is not, ahem, inclusive.

Posted by: londongirl at November 10, 2005 2:16 AM

Thanks Londongirl.
I had a bit of trouble opening the link but I managed it eventually. Had it been edited since you last refered to it?

http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1627_xmas_lights_ban_.htm

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 10, 2005 4:49 AM

londongirl,

Peace and blessings be upon you for that link.

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 10, 2005 12:26 PM

The lights are paid for out of taxpayers money. They do not represent the taxpayers.

If they are not Christmas lights then they should all be unplugged, on behalf of the council tax payers.

All of them.

It would be better to have darkness than "winterval" lights.

Besides, Ken Livingstone, the London Ayatollah, used taxpayers money to have green lights for Ramadan, that is another thing which should be secularised.

Muslim festivals offend people too then, maybe those should be renamed in case they offend.

Posted by: IceDragon at November 10, 2005 6:02 PM

Why don't we invent a Mohammedmas Day?...oh sometime around say December 25th?.
Eminent moslem "scholars" should know the gestation period of a pig,and given enough money could be persuaded to come up the date December 25th.
the we could have lights on palm trees,give eachother presents of Kalashnikovs,get happy on hot sweet tooth-rotting coffee,roast a she-camel,eat hot roasted hand grenades from an open fire.
Then we could sneak back in Christmas on the same day.
Either that or vote out politically correct councils.

Posted by: Paul at November 13, 2005 9:07 AM