To further our aims should we not constantly revise history to make it fit the present?

"Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past"

Damn! That's the other side!

Posted by: Lisa at November 8, 2005 7:57 PM

There is no "war of civilizations" -Hugh

Absolutely correct. For a war of civilizations to take place, civilization must exsist on both sides, it does not.

Posted by: JadeDragoness at November 8, 2005 8:17 PM

It's unthinkable to undo history. But we can do the future, if we strongly strive to have a political voice. Only then, political correctness will be history and a new round of fencing the free world will start.

Posted by: enoughisenough at November 8, 2005 8:18 PM

History always comes out of its closets, no matter who tries to control it. As the forum's resident Bible-thumper, I revere a book as God-breathed which, essentially, is the losers'-eye-view of history.

Yet re this post and Hugh's earlier one on directed at the excuses made for the European Muslim rioters, I can say there is some justice in the accusation that Europe has been discriminatory (although I agree 150% that much of the trouble lies in the nature of Islam itself).

In an American university where I formerly taught, I had a student of North African-French origins who was both an apostate from Islam and highly critical of Europe's treatment of its swarthy- and dark-skinned immigrants, comparing France unfavorably with "racist" America. I knew a Sino-Malaysian fellow Christian who thought he'd found a home in Britain until he saw skinheads mob and trash his favorite curry joint in a "Paki-busting" incident, whereupon he headed for Canada. I'm not trying to feel smug towards Europeans, for we Americans wrote the book on ugly race-baiting, and I am trying to avoid the sort of Schadenfreude that too many of us conservative Americans indulge in when we see European attempts at multi-culturalism going sour. However, this makes me pray that God would prevent our American resistance to the mad jihad from turning into a willingness to go after everyone who looks Mideastern, South Asian, or Malay. The West's only long-term hope is that the small stream of Muslims who have found salvation in the Christ of the Gospel should turn into a flood--and for this to happen, Muslims should not be made to think that the Gospel is a club over their heads rather than a gate they are invited to enter (cf. John 10).

Did anyone here see Lawrence Eagleburger on Fox News discussing the French riots?

Posted by: Kepha at November 8, 2005 8:41 PM

Kepha,

I wholeheartly agree, things would turn ugly indeed if we pursue the Serb option. However, I do remain pessimistic about large numbers of Muslims accepting Christianity anytime soon, especially in our post-Christian society where very few are still observant. For example in Catholic France the number of people attending mass regularly is under 10%, its probably lower in the UK, no one knows the fundamentals of their faith anymore, we are unchurched, which is one the reasons why so many convert to Islam. Moreover, most Muslims know next to nothing about Christianity, except what the egregious late Ahmed Deedat used to say about it, and the social and in many instances, physical consequences of apostasy are too great for many wavering Muslims to bear.

Posted by: spencerd at November 8, 2005 9:47 PM

Islam in certain areas of Indonesia was mellowed by contact with Javanese or Sumatran tradition and culture, but that was decades ago. Rather than giving all the credit to the Dutch for taming islam, most of the credit should go to the beneficial influence of ancient Javanese and Sumatran traditions.

Now islam is a globalized strategic network supported by oil wealth and having no connection anymore with any tradition or culture.

The purpose of present day islam is to take over the world. We give away inches of territories and give away rights, but islam doesn't give any. It has a steely determination of taking and controlling.

Islam in its present form cannot be tamed.

Posted by: rocky at November 9, 2005 12:55 AM

These riots are Chirac's own choice. He preferred "dog" on "God" for the EU consitution. Now he has "dog" to bite him.

Posted by: Sopher at November 9, 2005 1:03 AM

My best friend (and Best Man at my wedding), who holds views similar to kj's (and is a grand teacher, btw), recently challenged my knowledge of history with a statement about Christian Rome. Altho I have read quite a few history books, he got me started on a track I hadn't considered before, and I am quite pleased that he did. I had quite a bit of knowledge about the religious history of the world, Europe predominantly, but now I am finding whole avenues I hadn't explored before- avenues which put the LIE to quite a bit of the claims by those who would tear Christianity down.

Point being: History ought to be a Major point of study in one's mental life.

btw, my best friend turned out to be wrong, for a great many reasons. When Ia blamed 'Christian Rome' for kicking out the Jews from Judea... well I already knew long ago that That was dead wrong- but now I have a full understanding of All the Whys. That's what I liked most about my friend's challenge- it worked both ways, we both grew.

Posted by: Gary at November 9, 2005 6:49 AM

Gary: I think we are on the same page. The past has large lessons to teach us--and there is a lot to it.

I am now teaching an ESOL history class in a high school, and pointed out to the students that the textbook gives us perhaps no more than .0002 percent of the historical record. I offer three extra credit points for each off-campus article on history read, and ten for a book (there's a written worksheet to go with it).

But, sad to say, I am also preparing a letter to the publisher of the textbook, since there are a number of egregious errors--and not just about Islam.

Posted by: Kepha at November 9, 2005 7:15 AM

Note: kt may be back...? in the guise of bin-censored.

Posted by: Gary at November 9, 2005 8:33 AM

Yeah, maybe now Europe will wake up. Deport all those rioters and their families to Algeria. If Algeria doesn't want them, let them go to "palestine" and claim that the JOOOZ have messed up their lives. The UN will be happy to hand them billions in welfare, I'm sure.

The Biafran War was about Jihad? Damn, I never heard that before. I guess I'd better get to wikipedia and read up on that. I knew that a million people were killed, yet another REAL massacre ignored by the "Israel is the WORST!" crowd.

Gary, I never said (nor have I ever thought) that Christian Rome kicked the Jews out of Judea. It was Pagan Rome.

You've NEVER heard me try to equivocate Christianity (especailly in it's modern form) with Islam. Christianity has killed, enslaved, massacred, etc. But Islam has done probably 10 times more, and--this is the important part--is doing so NOW.

I'm glad that you have such close liberal friends (besides me, of course)... you'll be pleased to know that I have many good conservative friends (not just my good-time buddies here at JW/DW.)

For those of you that hate liberals and/or eschew our company, I can only say this:

The quickest path to extremism is to talk only with people that agree with you.

I think Islam is living proof of this.

*******************************************

Mr. Spencer, have you considered another page here: Sharia Watch?

kj

fanorollins@yahoo.com

PS... Gary, to repay you for your kind words of friendship, I WON'T repeat that challenge I often leave for you... you know, the one about tax-payer money, Dawa, etc.?

Posted by: kj at November 9, 2005 8:56 AM

kj~ did I type the wrong initials? I was referring to a claim made by IA.

Posted by: Gary at November 9, 2005 9:01 AM

Ahhh, I see it. No, kj~ you would like my best friend, he agrees with you on a lot of counts. He was the one who made the claim (outside of the one Ia made here). He is Pagan (and the only time he has Ever dressed up in his life was for our wedding).

Posted by: Gary at November 9, 2005 9:04 AM

Not only did the Dutch help in taming Islam, but, as with Turkey and Tunisia and the Shah's Iran, Islam was to an extent reined in for many post-Dutch years by native tyrants: Sukarno and Suharto.

History has shown that the natural cultural power of Islam in regions conquered by Islam can only really be reined in by native tyrants (either corrupt or truly Occident-oriented or a combination of the two) or by Western imposition.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 9, 2005 12:24 PM

Some interesting posts in this thread! I like Kepha's ideas above... I am a devout secularist, though not a zealot -- I LIKE Christians -- I LIKE Jews -- I LIKE Hindus -- I LIKE Buddhists (sp?) -- I'll leave it at that for the time being...

Anyway, I have been thinking for quite some time about helping to fund christian outreach through whatever organization - mainly because I suspect this may be one of the only pathways for Muslims and Communists to pass from darkness into light ... That is not to take sides, as a COMPLETE agnostic, as to whether secularism or religiosity represents the state of light -- I would love to be able to believe in something like the afterlife -- or God for that matter -- but I cannot... I won't...

Nevertheless, I am very fond of some of the basic tenets of Jesus' "Christian" message -- two are especially useful for this discussion: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "Render unto Caesars that which is Caesars..."

The ethos of these Christian tenets represent certain high points in human spirituality and temporality --

I know, I know ! These arent' exclusive to Christianity, but nevertheless, the golden rule, and the logic of separating church and state are well entrenched now in the Christian gestalt...

I know, I know! I fully recognize these have more often been honored in the breech -- BUT -- it is becoming increasingly clear to me that the Christian context seems to be the only major world religion in which blossoms of true plurality, true tolerance, and true freedoms seem to sprout and flourish... This is not to say the other major world religion, Hinduism, doesn't share some similarity -- I find much there to admire -- but it's appeal is far less universal, and my understanding is that most Hindu scholars maintain that you must be reincarnated as a Hindu -- that it isn't something that you can "convert" to -- Whether this is true or not in toto -- Christianity seems to be the only religious vehicle that can provide the proper soil conditions for all the rest to follow -- Buddhism and Judaism are just too small and exclusive to have sufficient broad appeal in my opinion...

Anyway -- it's possible that supporting evangelicism is going to be a necessary part of a successful anti-Jihad --

Just a thought that's been kicking around in my head lately...

Posted by: jsla at November 9, 2005 4:47 PM

RE: Christianity has killed, enslaved, massacred, etc. But Islam has done probably 10 times more, and--this is the important part--is doing so NOW.

The difference is that the Qu'ran sanctifies those actions while those Christians performed
misdeeds. It is called "using the Lord's name in vain", to perform brutal acts in HIS name.

Posted by: learjet0450 at November 9, 2005 6:29 PM

Kepha and jsla,

A few years ago I read this article in an Middle East Quarterly. The article is about successful Christian prosletizing efforts in the Algerian Kablyie. If you read French there are similar stories on Berber web sites.
My point is that converting Muslims is difficult but not impossible. I also vaguely recall a long article in Paris Match a couple of years ago about French Muslims converting to Christianity, I wish I had kept it and I don't have the date of the edition in question.

"Christianity Is Life" Summer 2001

The Islamist campaign of violence in Algeria has turned some Muslims, especially Berbers, away from Islam and toward Christianity, reports the Algiers daily Al-Yawm in late December 2000, as reprinted in Courrier International, January 4-10, 2001, p. 29. The following extracts are translated from the French.

In Kabylie, people of all ages are converting to Christianity.

In certain towns and villages of Greater Kabylie, there is at least one church, as for example at Ouadhias, Draa Benkhedda, Ain el-Hammam, and Boghni. In the latter village, for instance, two churches have opened their doors during the last two years. Although the original builders of these two churches had worked in absolute secrecy, the number of citizens who have embraced Christianity has grown rapidly. The [Protestant] church of Ouadhias has played an important role in the proliferation of the number of conversions in Kabylie, and it is considered the Mother Church, never having ceased its activities, even after [Algeria's] independence [1962] and the departure of the French and humanitarian missionaries.

At a ceremony which we witnessed, things begin with prayers, the invocation of God, and religious chants in three languages: Amazigh (a Berber language), French, and Arabic. After the sermon, one ends with prayers, some of which are for the healing of the sick.

The media have played a great part in the conversions in Kabylie, the majority of radio stations have a strong following in this region. The faithful whom we met have confirmed that information had, in their view, an important role in the legitimization of Christian doctrines. Like Saïd –who confessed that he listens a lot to [the French station] Radio Monte Carlo and particularly its popular broadcasts in Amazigh. As for Slimane, he declares that "80 percent of the reasons which impelled me towards Christianity came from Radio Monte Carlo." There are also other radio stations such as "Miracle Channel" (7SAT) [a satellite channel], and most of the faithful confirmed that they listen to these stations which broadcast the Christian message throughout the world.

Another reason for these conversions lies in the healing and nursing, which pushed a number of people towards Christianity. When we asked Saïd, 28, the reason for his conversion, he explained that he was suffering with asthma and hospitalized several times. Then a friend advised him to convert. After his release from hospital, Saïd made his way to the church and began frequenting it regularly, every Sunday, for two months. "I was healed and I have not taken any medicine since." The same reason was invoked by Noureddine who came to Christianity for "medical reasons." Rachid, the [Protestant] minister of the church, declares for his part that: "I have healed many whose faith was strong."

Of course, doubts are legitimate. Were people with chronic diseases healed? When we questioned the person responsible for the church at Ouadhias about the conversions, he replied that there were more and more every day, his church alone celebrating 50 baptisms per year.

The deterioration of the image of Islam during the crisis has played its part in this rise of conversions to Christianity and the adoption of its principles. What is happening and what has happened in Algeria, such as the massacres and killings in the name of Islam,1 has [sic] led many, when asked what the difference, in their view, was between Islam and Christianity, to declare: "Christianity is life, Islam is death." For Samia, a secondary school pupil, the proof of the difference between Islam and Christianity was the mixing and relationship between the sexes, the former forbidding it, and the latter allowing it.

As to the means used by the Churches to spread their faith, there is the distribution of Bibles in three languages, Arabic, French, and Amazigh, and video- and audio-cassettes on the life of the Messiah, son of Mary, translated into Amazigh. As to activities in general in the Great Kabylie, and at Ouadhias in particular, Pastor Djamel told us that "the faithful meet every Thursday and every Friday, which are the days of rest [the Algerian weekend is Thursday and Friday], make friends through personal contacts, helping each other in all walks of life, the family, school and work."

Posted by: spencerd at November 10, 2005 5:35 AM

Christianity can make inroads among Muslims who are non-Arab, and who have fresh resentments against Arab cultural, linguistic, and political imperialism better than it can among the Arabs themselves, who do not, of course, resent the Arab supremacist ideology within Islam, but find it perfectly acceptable. Efforts that might succeed in the Kabyle, or among some Berbers in France, would be less effective with Arabs in Algeria (or those who, perhaps a generation or two or ten away from their Berber ancestors, assume they are Arabs, or know, but wish to stick with that "Arabness") or in France.

The Western world must do what it can to heighten both Infidel and non-Arab Muslim consciouisness of the treatment of non-Arab Muslims by Arabs. Look at the complete silence, and that silence was approval, of the "Anfal" campaign by the Arabs against the Kurds in Iraq. Not a word of protest, not a word of sympathy. Look at how, for so long, the Arabs of Algeria denied the Berbers even the right to speak their own language, and today do what they can to prevent the expression of Berber culture, rather than celebrating, preserving, and encouraging it.

Look at how non-Arab black African Muslims have been murdered in Darfur, and enslaved in Mali and Mauritania.

Islam pretends to universalist claims. The Arab imperialism within it - whereby islamized populations are encouraged to take Arab names, must keep Arabia in their consciousness as the qibla to which they turn five times a day, and whose 7th century inhabitants, their mores and customs, are to be taken as the Model for All Mankind, so that the heirs of more sophisticated civilizations, from that of Persia to that of Hindustan, centuries after their Zoroastrian or Hindu or even Buddhist ancestors were forced to convert to Islam, either on pain of death, or to avoid having to any longer endure the degradation, humiliation, and physical insecurity of the status of being a dhimmi, a non-Muslim under Muslim rule, have to work hard to preserve their own language (think of Firdowsi and Persian), and are encouraged to regard with at best indifference, at worst hostility, their own pre-Islamic past, or what remains of it.

Islam does not welcome that "diversity" we hear so much about. Islam would like Islam to spread everywhere. Ideally, everyone would surrender to Islam, but until then, non-Muslims by right should submit to the will and dominance of Muslims. Where that cannot be achieved by outright military conquest, it can be achieved by other means -- by aggressive Da'wa, and by demographic conquest.

And in Western Europe, that is exactly what is happening. And will happen, unless the non-Muslims decide to examine, and thoroughly understand, the tenets of Islam, and the history of Islamic conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims.

And then to draw certain conclusions as to what measures, once deemed undiscussable, might at last be discussable.

Posted by: Hugh at November 10, 2005 10:59 AM

Yes -- time to start discussing some undicussable topic -- HIGH TIME!

Thanks Hugh...

Posted by: jsla at November 10, 2005 5:42 PM

And then to draw certain conclusions as to what measures, once deemed undiscussable, might at last be discussable.

Yes -- time to start discussing some undicussable topic -- HIGH TIME!

Don't hold your breath. You'll have to wait another 50 years, or another few 911s -- whichever comes first. Bush called Islam a "great religion" this week.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 10, 2005 11:30 PM

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The fatwa of Mufkhaza

The fatwa of Mufkhaza (Pedophilia, with my humble translation)

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The fatwa of Mufkhaza [rubbing the penis between the thighs] of children

Fatwa number <31409> dated 7/5/1421 Hijri

All praises be to Allah alone and prayers and peace be upon the one whom no prophet can come after him----Moreover:

The Permanent Committee for Academic Research and Rendering Fatwas (religious edicts) has reviewed the religious opinion request sent to his beatitude, the General Mufti (Muslim scholar who interprets the shari’a), by the opinion seeker, Abu Abdullah Muhammad Al-Shammeri. This was referred to the committee by the general trusteeship of the committee of senior clerics as number 1809 and dated 3/5/1421 Hijri. The text of the religious opinion seeker’s question:

“The practice of performing Mufkhaza on small boys has recently become widespread, and especially during wedding celebrations. What is the [religious] validity of that knowing that the messenger of Allah, may Allah salute and pray on him, had preformed Mufkhaza on our lady Ayesha, may she find favor with Allah.”

After study by the committee for rendering fataws, it answered with the following:

Resorting to these illegitimate practices, which came to our lands through pornographic films sent by the infidels and the enemies of Islam, is not consistent with centuries-long Islamic guidance. However, concerning the messenger of Allah, may Allah salute and pray on him, having had preformed Mufkhaza on his fiancée Ayesha: she was six-years-old and he could not have intercourse with her due to her young age therefore, he, may Allah salute and pray on him, would place his penis between her thighs and rub it gently. Also, the messenger of Allah possessed a penis unlike that of the believers.

Based on that, it is not permissible to carry on Mufkhaza during weddings, in homes, and in schools due to its excessive danger… May Allah curse the infidels who brought these practices to our lands.

The Permanent Committee for Academic Research and Rendering Fatwas,

Member: Bakr bin Abdu Allah Abu Zayed

Member: Salih bin Fawzan Al-Fawzan

Chairman: Abdul Aziz bin Abdu Allah bin Muhammad Al Al-Sheikh

Posted by: have_mercy at November 11, 2005 1:31 AM

Hugh and jsla: Even Arab Muslims jump ship--as Walid SHoebat, Nonie Darwish, and others show. As a Christian, I praise God that more and more Muslims of numerous ethnicities are seeing the inherent violence of the religion in which they were raised, and being effectually called to saving faith in Jesus the Messiah. Yes, the Muslim world is on the boil, but perhaps this is the sort of divine shake-up that we sinful, stiff-necked, and stony-hearted falled children of Adam need every so often.

Jsla, as for the "render unto Caesar", it does negate the call to political radicalism which so many hoped we Christians would heed back in the 1960's and '70's--but one reason we didn't heed was that the cults of personality visible in Cuba, China, North Viet Nam, etc., over which our radical neighbors went ga-ga, simply reeked of the divine Caesars who fed so many of us to the lions back before Constantine. These same points will also attract us to those who'll reinstate the idea of LIMITED government.

Posted by: Kepha at November 11, 2005 11:40 AM

Kepha -- This was some fantastic wisdom from the Gospels:
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s." The world of the temporal and the world of the spiritual are to be separate -- surely each will be concerned with the other, but they should represent two different spheres of influence in the minds of adherents.

And we can witness daily that Christianity isn't immune to cults of personality either... Observe the 700 Club Billionaire Pat Robertson -- that one man cult of sewage, the smarmy voice of God on Earth -- God's Gerent -- He's issuing assassination fatwas, damning towns in Pennsylvania, blaming America's wickedness and homosexuals for 9/11, and all manner of Islamic sounding horse shit --

But really that's small stuff in the sway of Human History -- The big ideas -- the ones that count -- seem to transcend history and emerge and re-emerge again and again... My take is that Christianity's trajectory is generally upward with periods of retrograde backwardness -- whereas islam appears to retrograde in the main, and tends only to destroy --

Posted by: jsla at November 11, 2005 1:01 PM