Why is Le Pen always labeled "ultra" or "super" (some variation) right? That's a serious question. I'm not a Le Pen supporter, just curious. I've been paying attention to French politics a bit for years now and I don't recall anything which suggests he's the second coming of Mussolini.

Posted by: Beagle at November 16, 2005 9:54 AM

It would be best if Le Pen himself would somehow disappear, and the National Front votes go to Philippe de Villiers or to Sarkozy, or someone as yet unrecognized and unknown.

Posted by: Hugh at November 16, 2005 9:55 AM

Oh joy! The right will rise again!

Posted by: A.G.Frederick III at November 16, 2005 9:56 AM

After a quick Internet search - isn't it wonderful? - I think I know why Le Pen is generally considered a marginal figure. He seems to have foot-in-mouth disorder. His 1987 quote on the Holocaust was particularly ill-considered. Average Muslims say much worse, but he's a French politician.

Posted by: Beagle at November 16, 2005 10:02 AM

European politics are so extremely leftist that it is a misnomer to translate Chirac's government as "Conservative" in English... This man is far to the left of Howard Dean -- And as for Le Pen's "extremist" label by the French -- well he's more similar to Tom Tancredo -- hardly an extremist!

Posted by: jsla at November 16, 2005 11:25 AM

I think that, like most French people, Le Pen is a bit of an antisemite, though as another poster
mentioned, far less so than your average mohammadan, more like a Pat Buchanan.

Given this quirk, I think it would be better for
France if he were to step back. However, given
the horrid state of France as it is now, it may be that some mini-Mussolini like Le Pen is the
best option. It might benefit other nations, like
mine, to absorb the French Jews. I feel we missed out by not grabbing enough Hong Kong people a
few years back.

No muslims in though, it's the Religion of Bad News.

Posted by: American at November 16, 2005 11:40 AM

So far, from my reading, Le Pen seems just fine and dandy. I think most people who oppose Le Pen are irrationally parroting other people's (perhaps uninformed and prejudicial) opinions.

Le Pen, from an interview published in Haaretz Daily:

Can you understand the complaints in Israel about the "hypocritical" European reaction?

Le Pen: "Certainly. After all, I got a similar reaction during the war in Algeria, when I served in General Massu's 10th division. We were called upon to fight the terrorism of the FLN (the Algerian nationalist movement that fought against French colonialism). The intelligentsia at home criticized our actions. It's very easy to criticize from the armchair in the living room. I completely understand the State of Israel, which is seeking to defend its citizens."

Do you condone the Israeli action against the Iraqi nuclear reactor?

Le Pen: "Yes, of course. That was an act of prevention. True, it doesn't conform to international law, but in such a situation, there is no need to use it."

Le Pen was asked of his opinion on a variety of things:

The French Revolution - "A bloody calamity for the French people. This revolution spawned two dreadful bastards: Nazism and communism."

The skullcap - "The skullcap that Catholic priests wear? I don't have anything against the skullcap. It's a personal choice."

The Muslim veil - "It protects us from ugly women."

The Dreyfus Affair - "Dreyfus was exonerated and that concluded the affair. We should remember that among those who sided with Dreyfus at the time were people from the right, and that some from the left were among his opponents."

Collaborators with Hitler - "France was an occupied country. There were two kinds of collaborators: those who were forced by the Nazis to collaborate and those who viewed Hitler as the realization of anti-communist socialism. The latter were almost all leftists, by the way."

What is your definition of torture?

Le Pen: "I don't know. I would define it as `a series of violent acts that cause physical injury to individuals, actions that destroy the personality and leave traces.' Police and military interrogations do not fit this definition of torture. What's surprising is that the people who fought against torture here are the communists. And the communists are the ones who used to practice systematic mass torture in their own countries. The suffering caused by the terrorists is the real torture. The struggle against terrorists sometimes requires secrecy and it has its own rules. The enemy must not be allowed the advantage that permits him to plant bombs when and where he wants. In this struggle, everyone must carry his own burden."

Le Pen was asked about fascist elements alleged to have been in his party, the National Front:

Le Pen: “In [my party, the National Front], there was no mention of fascism or national-socialism. In my speeches, I always condemned communism, national-socialism and fascism. Incidentally, I define all of them as leftist movements that were spawned by the French Revolution. The only reason that our movement was pegged with the extremist label is because of our loyalty to the principle of `French Algeria' and our opposition to the policy of separation from Algeria, which De Gaulle instituted.”

Do you agree with Jacques Chirac's 1995 statement about France's responsibility for the crimes of the Vichy government?

Le Pen: "No. France was not responsible for this criminal policy. France was an occupied country, a country that surrendered and was left without the right to choose. Therefore, to be fair, you cannot say that it was a willing partner in this policy. On this I agree with De Gaulle [who viewed France as a `resistance country' - A.P.], and with practically all the French leaders aside from Jacques Chirac. I am sure that he made this statement for electoral reasons. It was a showy move designed to win sympathy in certain circles."

Which circles?

Le Pen: "In this case, Jewish circles. In a successful book that was published recently ["L'homme qui ne s'aimait pas" - "The Man Who Didn't Love Himself"], Eric Zemmour, a journalist from Le Figaro, quotes President Chirac as saying after his declaration of French responsibility for Vichy crimes: `I hope the Jews will stop pestering me from now on.'"

There's much more at the link from which I culled the above --
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=153419&sw=le+pen

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 16, 2005 11:50 AM

dr. pepper:

LePen is a racist and an xenophobe, which is why so many of us are filled with dread at the thought of his ressurection. Between the extreme situation with France's Muslim community and LePen toning down his animosity towards Jews, probably at his daughter's behest(she has political ambitions of her own) he's had a bit of a redemption, but that's all.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 16, 2005 12:05 PM

This could get really ugly. What I never understood is the requirement for so many immigrants. The explanation given was that the indigenous population are not breeding so immigrants were required to keep the social (read welfare) state solvent. But it seems to me that can only happen if the immigrants are gainfully employed. Some of the figures I have seen bandied about are anywhere between 10% to 40% of immigrants are unemployed. So, why would you keep taking immigrants in if there are no jobs for them ? If immigrations is needed then they need to be more selective from where they take them from. A wider variety of cultures to help balance the immigrant population. South America, Mexico, Poland anywhere in addition to or instead of France's former colonies.

Posted by: TooBad at November 16, 2005 12:06 PM

waterdragon,

I supplied considerable quotes from Le Pen (being interviewed by an Israeli journal -- which, by the way, interleavens their interview which I linked with lots of critical comments of Le Pen) to back up my sense that he's fine and dandy.

You provided nothing except assertions based on labels. Can you supply some information that will back up your assertions?

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 16, 2005 12:46 PM

This from the time Le Pen ran against Jacques Chirac---->>>

Le Pen is good for us,' Jewish supporter says

By Yossi Melman

"I don't understand why they say I'm an anti-Semite," Jean-Marie Le Pen said yesterday morning during a conversation with his unofficial advisor on Jewish affairs, Sonia Arrouas. He also told Arrouas that he hoped to be able to visit Israel soon.

In an interview with Ha'aretz, Arrouas said that in her opinion, "Le Pen is not an anti-Semite."

"It's true that years ago, he expressed views that had an anti-Semitic tone to them, but that was long ago, and since then, he has changed his view," she said.

The leader of the National Front had changed his opinions about the Jews after marrying his (second) wife Jany, Arrouas added. "All of Jany's best friends are Jews," she explained.

Arrouas emphasized that she was not a member of Le Pen's party and did not hold any official political position. "I simply assist Le Pen on an informal basis."

Arrouas is the daughter of immigrants from Tunisia and was born in Paris 40 years ago. After studying and working in the field of diamonds, she studied law and is now a judge. She said that she had checked Le Pen's views carefully five years ago before deciding to join ranks with him.

"I did this for the safety of my three daughters and for the security of all of the Jews in France and because all of the French governments are pro-Arab. Le Pen is opposed to the Arabs and is, therefore, good for the Jews."

Arrouas does not see a paradox in the fact that the daughter of Jewish immigrants supports someone who is considered a racist and anti-immigrant. "He's not a racist and is not opposed to immigrants. He is just against illegal foreigners - those who don't work and act like parasites in France. Le Pen does not oppose foreigners who have permits and work and contribute to society," she said.

Does she feel like a "court Jew?"

Not at all, she said. "Lot's of Jews support Le Pen, but they're afraid to admit this in public. I'm not afraid to express my views."

She believes that the members of the Jewish leadership in France strongly oppose Le Pen only because of their ambitions for power. "The socialist governments promised the Jewish establishment to preserve their power. They also promised to wage a battle against anti-Semitism, but didn't do a thing about this."

According to Arrouas, "Le Pen is pro-Israel and believes it is the only Western state in the Arab East and this is why Israel's security and existence is important to him." She added that a member of Knesset invited Le Pen to visit Israel several weeks ago, but couldn't accept this invitation due to the election campaign. She was unable to recall the name of the lawmaker.

Posted by: dennisw at November 16, 2005 1:16 PM

Thanks dennis.

The more I read about Le Pen, the more I become convinced that he has been a victim of the prejudicial smear tactics used by our dominant PC culture, a culture in which it is far too easy to whip out the labels "racist", "Islamophobe" and "xenophobe" and thereby smear honest critics of Islam. And the PC spinners even have the temerity to trot out the "anti-Semite" label against Le Pen, when in our era the camps most accurately characterized as anti-Semitic are PC Leftists and the Muslims whom Leftists love.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 16, 2005 1:45 PM

Like a previous poster said, the future can come back from the far right but it will never come back from islam.

Countries swing left and right all the time but they never swing back from islam. Remember that when you vote.

.
.
. Why does immigration seem important? The politicians think they will save the old age benefits system. However, the cost to the countries, if you consider housing, health cost, education of huge families, prison costs, crime, security from terrorism, etc. when added up (just look how much those riots cost and will cost in programs) is devastating to countries. Osama's goal!

Why is polygamy allowed when it is illegal? The law was made for a reason. I wonder how bad the polygamy problem is in various countries. Is it hidden or flaunted?

Posted by: Borg at November 16, 2005 2:31 PM

The following is a very brief analysis by the Wiesenthal Center of Le Pen and his policies written just before French presidential election of a few years ago.

http://www.wiesenthal.com/atf/cf/{DFD2AAC1-2ADE-428A-9263-35234229D8D8}/frenchelections.pdf#search='le%20pen%20AND%20antisemitism'

Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at November 16, 2005 3:40 PM

All I know of Le Pen is the comments he made in the interview posted here. He seems reasonable. Why do people always smear people to the right as racists or nazis. I agree with Le Pen when he states Nazism and fascism were products of the left. "Right wing Nazi" which we always here from the left when they attack somone on the right isnt even possible. The Nazis were socialists. Not only am I tired of these arguments from people on the left, I am a bit surprised that there are people on this site that have fallen for this crap.

The bottome line is instead of looking out for people who might be anti-semetic amongst people who claim not to be. Why not concentrate on the group of people who are unabashed in admitting they are anit-semites like the muslims.

Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at November 16, 2005 3:53 PM

Sorry to Mr. Wiesenthal but he seems like a bit of a hyprocrite. The kind of political system he wants to implement in France isnt anything different than what exists in Israel today. I am tired of having Muslims use Israel as an excuse for their crimes and I always stick up for Israel. But there is some hypocracy here.

Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at November 16, 2005 3:57 PM

Umm, before you condemn the right wing, remember, Mr. Spencer and posters here are also called right-wing and right-wing nutjobs. That means us.

Posted by: Borg at November 16, 2005 4:10 PM

Hey guys, I am French and here is my comment about Le Pen: Chirac and Co are supposed to be right wing... but they are the equivalent of the Labour party in the UK and certainly more left wing than Tony Blair.
As a logical result, our extreme right is not what the British or Americans would call extreme right... our extreme right is... let us say like the British Conservative party ? the US Republicans ?
Le Pen has been ostracised by the media for years. He is never invited. Our little communist guy, Olivier Besancenot, who represents less than 5 % of the votes (2002 Presidential Elections) is systematically invited on the political TV shows, sharing with us his "fashionable" revolutionary communist opinions. When (rarely) Le Pen is invited, the journalists dont let him speak, as they probably want to show their boss and colleagues that they hate him ! Actually he cannot say what he thinks, he is aggressed, so he answers the same way and all debate is spoilt. French people dont really know what he thinks and what the National Front really is, if it is dangerous, if there are dangerous groups in it. But 17 % of the French people voted for Le Pen on the last 2002 Elections ! It is a "contestation vote" as they say. A lot of people are just so angry with Chirac and Co that they vote for Le Pen.
As for Le Pen himself, I dont think he is dangerous. He was the only one who dared mention the issue of immigration and Islam. He was the only one who was courageous, hence people liked him (in secret, of course !). He is an old man now, and inside the Front National, nobody has his charisma... so I doubt that the National Front will do a good score in the future, but maybe the riots have changed things. Currently, polls show that Le Pen gained a few votes but not so much. But people never dare say they like Le Pen as it is such a taboo. But they still vote for him, when nobody watches ! Anyway, Le Pen should be allowed to express himself as he represents so many people in France, and it is a scandal that people like Besancenot can talk and talk on TV shows whereas their ideas are more dangerous (in my opinion) than Le Pen's ideas ! Besancenot, if he was elected, would just take the money of the people and turn France into a little USSR.
Lastly, Le Pen always has difficulty finding the 500 signatures from the mayors, signatures he needs to be a candidate for the Presidential Election. As a matter of fact, the mayors or other representants dare not give him a signature as they would be "punished" by their political friends, and at the end of the day, they would get less money for their city. It is like a little mafia this political world, as everybody knows.
Will he get the 500 signatures for 2007 ? Nobody knows that yet. But it would really be a scandal if he did not, as so many people support him. The 20 % of the French people who support extreme right would feel insulted + people like me who dont vote for Le Pen but would find it scandalous and unfair ... it would piss me off big time if he could not be a candidate and I think the "traditional right wing" = Chirac's UMP party would be very wrong to prevent Le Pen from being a candidate. Actually people like me would get so angry we would vote for Le Pen, as a "contestation".

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 16, 2005 4:47 PM

Joiesauvage -- Keep your chin up !!! I hope you and others like you can salvage your country from utter ruin -- I relentlessly write about the horrors of the French leadership -- but I really need to remember people like you are out there -- subjected to their plutocratic lies and fantasist filth... I only hope Europe can maneuver this mine field without succumbing to the disease of Islam and Jihad, and without tipping so far right that we see Nazism flourish again... Sadly Europe has been wallowing in anti-Semitism all along... and that's a bad sign...

But a GIANT tilt towards the REAL right, not some fake simulacrum of it can only be a good thing... Even if you go too far, I am confident it can be turned back... unlike your utterly fatal tipping towards leftist nihilism and moral relativity which has allowed the Islamic lie to spread like a fungus throughout Europe. THAT is a FATAL cocktail...

Posted by: jsla at November 16, 2005 5:00 PM

pissedoffcanadian:

Did you read through the report h,f& h provided to the end -- the part about Holocaust denial? That might just have a little to do with the Wiesenthal Centre keeping tabs on the guy, if not for his one-time friendship with Saddam Hussein, the provider of death benefits to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.

So far as I am aware, LePen has not directly repudiated such beliefs. Anyone have any indication as to whether he has or not. (I know his daughter and political heir apparent has publicly distanced herself from this aspect of her father's beliefs.)

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 16, 2005 5:20 PM

Waterdragon all I am saying is for the Wiesenthal centre to have any credibility it better go after Simon Peres who is a holocaust denier himself. He said the Armenian holocaust was meaningless. I am tired of this double standard when it comes to the holocaust. I dont know anything about Le Pen but I can tell you he is definately not as Anti-semetic as the muslim scum who inhabit France right now. So instead of going after people who are rumoured to be anti-semetic like some witch hunt why not concentrate on those who are openly anti-semetic. And the problem I have with the Wiesental centre is that it is hypocritical. It doesnt go after people like Simon Peres but it is militant against everyone else. One of the arguments muslims and anti-semites make is that Israel is trying to monopolize the holocaust for its benefit. I think it is in the best interest of centres like the Wiesenthal centre to prove this wrong by being consistent in going after all of those who deny the holocaust and stop crying wolf over every right of centre politician and calling him a nazi.

Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at November 16, 2005 5:36 PM

Would it really be such a bad thing if the so-called "far right" came to power in France and Britian? Wouldn't that serve as a huge wakeup call to leftists and socialists? I believe the dems were stunned when Bush was re-elected with the most votes in the history of the US. I think that one of the reasons Kennedy, Dean, Pelosi, Reid ect have become unhinged.

Posted by: Roxane at November 16, 2005 6:52 PM

From Turkish News Le Pen: Turkey is on the path of ‘re-Islamization’

An interesting insight Le Pen The Saviour of Jews in France From 2002

In fact, if Le Pen wins the Presidency, he can be expected to act almost immediately to send Muslim immigrants back to their own nations, and this would have the effect of weakening their political influence in France, while increasing the political influence of Jews. Such a win, would undoubtedly also start similar movements in other European nations.

Here's an interesting take Bi Cultural Europe is Doomed Seems the problem is not that Europe is Multicultural, but it is bi cultural (muslims v dhimmi's in waiting).

If anyone is concerned that Le Pen would be antisemitic, maybe they should read and read Bat Ye'ors Eurabia, for antisemitism in the form of Arab kiss ass and Israel bashing is endemic in europe among the establishment, the ruling class (both left and right).

Here's an interview with Ha'aretz

Excerpted: Because of his comment that those who are involved in the riots Don't even vote.

"I don't think there is such a thing as the `Arab vote' in France. The residents of the suburbs who are responsible for the violent incidents don't take part in the elections at all. The French government is simply fleeing from responsibility. It is declining to grapple with the violent activity. It fears that tackling it would heighten the violent atmosphere and so it is preventing the security forces from intervening. This is a very risky approach because you cannot retreat indefinitely: In the end, it won't be possible to put off a response, and by then it will have to be at a much higher level of violence than if it were done today."

Posted by: Nariz at November 16, 2005 8:41 PM

I think that one of the reasons Kennedy, Dean, Pelosi, Reid ect have become unhinged.

They were always unhinged, Bush's reelection simply released the darker aspects of their political personalities. Unlikeable, one and all.

Posted by: Dead Infidel Walking at November 16, 2005 10:15 PM

Pissedoffcanadian:

"... the Wiesenthal centre to have any credibility it better go after Simon Peres who is a holocaust denier himself. He said the Armenian holocaust was meaningless. I am tired of this double standard when it comes to the holocaust..."

could it be that Shimon Peretz was selling out the Armenians just to make some sweet little deals with Turkey?

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 16, 2005 11:02 PM

Thank you all, for a great disccusion about Le Pen. I have learned alot.

I agree with pissedoffcanadian...

"The bottome line is instead of looking out for people who might be anti- semetic amongst people who claim not to be. Why not concentrate on the group of people who are unabashed in admitting they are anit-semites like the muslims."

and I also respect....Borg

"Umm, before you condemn the right wing, remember, Mr. Spencer and posters here are also called right-wing and right-wing nutjobs. That means us."

If France is in danger why not Le Pen!

Posted by: El Cid at November 16, 2005 11:47 PM

I'm reposting this because I want everyone to see this - stopping this is a first step.

And another interesting polygamy story. This is in France, but it's coming to other countries soon.

http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20051111-021914-3739r

Experts who work with France's black community point to a different kind of family breakdown. Sonia Imloul of Respect 93, a non-governmental organization, says one of the biggest problems is polygamy, and cites the example of one family she knows with one father, four wives and thirty children, all living in the same standard 4-room apartment of French public housing.

"The kids sleep in shifts, and when others are asleep, they are on the streets because there is nowhere else to go," she says, adding the new curfew imposed under the government's state of emergency regulations is simply adding to the pressure.

THIS NEEDS TO BE STOPPED

Watching the Borg
~growing exponentially

Posted by: Borg at November 17, 2005 12:12 AM

Muslim culture is little more than sewage -- Why is it so difficult for people to grasp that it must be flushed?

Posted by: jsla at November 17, 2005 12:40 PM

hello JSLA !
actually i think that it is the french socialists and communists who are anti semitic... they are fiercely anti USA, anti Israel... Le Pen is probably less antisemitic than most of the french politicians. But of course, i guess that fact goes against all the prejudices so you will not believe me !
In a democracy, it is a shame that a man who represents 20 % of voters cannot find enough signatures to be able to be a candidate for the presidential elections. It is a politican manoeuver from all the other politicians to prevent him from being a candidate, for fear he would get too many votes, which happened in 2002 when Le Pen went for the second round. But they cannot insult 20 % of the French like that. It is not a solution. It is anti democratic and if it happens, it will create a lot of troubles for the future. People like Le Pen should be allowed to freely express themselves, expose their ideas, like any other politician. Then everybody could be the judge of what he is saying but right now, it is a ridiculous taboo, it is like everybody agrees with Le Pen in secret but publicly, they say he is a monster ! I find it quite unhealthy. They'd better speak freely and I am sure the National Front would get less votes...
Lastly, the National Front would not be so successful if we had a real right. Real politicians, courageous, able to claim what their values are, able to denouce crime instead of justifying it. A lot of people are angry, hence Sarkozy will be elected (I think - I hope). Because Sarkozy is the only one who is courageous at the moment.
People are not stupid. They are fed up with being called "racist" and all this bullshit whereas we have people directly attacking us and our values, destroying churches, burning old women in the street... in the suburbs today, 6 year old kids throw stones to old ladies and call them "sluts". I saw it.
So yes we want a real Right ! But if we dont get it, we will have to vote for the National Front. Sorry.

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 18, 2005 1:33 PM

By the way, I must be one of the very few people in France who is not anti American and not anti Israel. For me, civilisation is more on the side of the capitalist, Jewish New Yorkers, than with the arabo communists pro Jihad we have in France. If you lived in France you would be afraid, I am sure, of all which is said about the Americans. There is such a hatred. And and course, Israel is part of that hatred. I find it very concerning.

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 18, 2005 1:41 PM

I think what really pisses the French off is the fact that most Americans are a little angry and hurt, but overall don't care much if the French hate us... Of course we don't want you to hate us so, of course we'd rather be friends! Especially after we shed so much American blood and money saving France from oblivion... How strange that now, when France perhaps faces a challenge to her survival which rivals or exceeds the threat she faced under Nazism or Soviet Communism, her hatred of her only possible savior is at such a frenzy --But make no mistake, American nonchalance doesn't mean there aren't consequences for France's contempt of America...

"If you lived in France you would be afraid..."

Yes -- I know -- I have friends living there, and they are SICK of it... But I am more concerned for France herself, despite her bitter hatred... The French themselves should be most afraid of their hatred for America -- This, and an infinite Gaulic pride, seriously limits France's options in the world - and forces them into the company of other dogs and snakes.

French men and women should be far more worried about their hatred of America - even more than any American should. French enmity has long been a fact, even during WW2!

But we are no longer the so-called "naive" Americans the French once thought... This is of course not really a true characterization of Americans ( that we are naive ) but this distortion forms part of the basis for French hatred of Americans too - American optimism and self confidence is UNBEARABLE to the cynical French... Many would love to see us harmed, to see us fail in the world-- They believe this will enhance France's prestige in the world -- HA! It will do the opposite. This reflects extremely poorly on the French.

And they should be made aware.. Americans have never been as mindful of France's deep contempt, or conscious of her betrayals... Many Americans no longer care if France goes up in flames as she has done. This isn't wise, and many have been savoring your calamities and find a certain delight... And though this doesn't represent the thoughts and feelings of most Americans, it is sad to see. Mainly because Americans have usually been far better than that, but also because I think France will not find America to be much of a "partner" in the future. France will now find that she will pay dearly for all her hatred i think...

Perhaps figures such as Sarkozy will turn this around, but after 65 years of French pomposity, French duplicity, and French treachery -- the "alliance" has probably run its course...

Posted by: jsla at November 18, 2005 4:27 PM

The rumor has just crossed news wires that the execrable traitor Johnny Depp, so dismayed by the recent "violence" in France, is indicating he may leave and return to America... But wait!

This is a rare opportunity for France AND America to join together -- perhaps we can unite and make sure this fellow moves to someplace more genial and complaisant -- perhaps Bahrain? -- Qattar? -- UAE? -- He could move in next door to Michael Jackson -- adjoining estates... Maybe they can buy some plots on that preposterous island shaped like a palm tree -- Summer in Dubai, winter in Doha?

And perhaps France can reprise her magnanimous gesture of a giant statue once again to commemorate this and future defections... And again, perhaps America can join with France in this endeavor -- I picture a new monumental statue for our age -- with a new message of hope for huddled billionaires everywhere... A stupendous gift to the sultanates of the ME -- I propose a Giant Faery, holding aloft the giant beacon of a magic wand -- bigger -- brighter -- better than the Statue of Liberty -- clad in gold leaf! It would have to be modest, of course -- perhaps an ethereal chaddor wearing faerie ?

It shall be called "The Statue of Fantasy" and inscribed on the base it could say something like: "We send you our refuse, our pampered poseurs yearning to be freaks..." Or some such thing...

Posted by: jsla at November 19, 2005 10:46 AM

Hello again JSLA,

Thank you very much for your comment.

Some Americans still seem to love the French and it breaks my heart, I think "if only they knew what the French think....". But what the Americans admire in the French is not their courage, power etc. but rather their cute landscapes, taste, clothes, elegance, good cuisine, fine architecture, historical patrimony, cathedrales... fantastic literature and maybe some fantasy about the French "libertinage" (in all those elements they are not totally wrong !).

For me the Americans represent a great Nation, certainly a very special nation, which has acquired a capital role in geopolitics and global economy. It is a very special nation in that for the first time in history, the most powerful nation in the world is also the one which defends liberties... (ok it is not perfect, but "la fin justifie les moyens " as Machiavel stated).
The US is a nation among some other great nations with special qualities like France, Britain, Spain, etc. all those nations which have brought (or are still bringing) something valuable in history (Law, democracy, philosophy, music masterpieces etc).
All the nations in the world have their special genius. Hence no nation should be hated as is the US in France, especially as the US is particularly successful and virtuous. The French are jealous like little kids. Instead of taking what is best in the American culture and let themselves inspire by it (which they do anyway), they prefer to criticise. It is true that the French like criticising everything (a national sport), but what irritates me is that they dont criticise any other country in the world. No mean word against Saudi Arabia, Cuba, North Korea, etc. The French claim they love the other cultures, that they are so open minded... but it seems that they focus all their aggressiveness on one scapegoat: America. It is hypocritical as on the other hand, they of course like travelling in the United States, and are always excited about what comes from the US.

You will understand that for people like me, who are reasonable and who do not dislike the US, life in France can be sometimes bitter. I started noticing the French anti americanism when I was 15 (that is, 15 years ago). I was already upset at that time, because I just FAILED to understand why my fellow citizens hated the US so much. It did not make sense to me... I had learned my history lessons and knew that the Americans had sent so many young boys to France to fight against the German army, and that afterwards, they had given a lot of money to the French. And afterwards, they had won the cold war...
Year after year, I got used to the fact that my strange fellow citizens hated the USA. The worst was when I went to university or rather "grandes écoles". I went to two of the most elitist Parisian schools: HEC (business school where the future CEO go) and Sciences Po Paris (the school which trains all our politicians and high civil servants). Those schools are extremely famous in France (unknown abroad...), and selective, so the best students are supposed to go there.... trouble is, the "best students", the "elit", are the ones who are the most anti american. There was a real "lavage de cerveau"... at HEC it was still ok, because it is a business school hence everything is inspired by the American MBAs. However, the future little capitalists who had only one idea in mind: make a good living, were still anti american... but the worst was at Sciences Po. They were obsessed with America, the great anti model of everything. We had, for instance, a 2 hour lecture about "the violations of the Human Rights in the world", and 1 hour and 45 minutes were related to.... the USA ! I was the only one who found it ridiculous... you know, as if the USA was the worst place in the world, as far as human rights are concerned... We had English courses with American teachers... I dont know where they found those American lecturers but I can tell you all they did was a fierce anti American propaganda, they hated the US. One day I went to my American teacher and argued with her: "if you hate your own country so much, why do you teach us about it ? Why don't you teach us about what America does well instead of depicting it as the worst place in the world ? You should be ashamed of what you are doing because all those youth who are listening to you BELIEVE you, and all you do is foster the French anti americanism". The teacher was embarrassed, she answered me "errr all I want to do is make you react, encourage the debate"... but she did not understand that day after day, at Sciences Po, the future "elit" of the nation was told that America is the worst place in the world and everything which goes wrong in the world is the fault of the Americans... very simplistic.

I did not like my studies at Sciences Po and many times, I wanted to stop before I got graduated. I finally got graduated and the ONLY positive thing about those years of study at that school was that I understood FROM INSIDE how our future decision makers are trained, what they are taught, and hence, what the future France will be. And I am not very optimistic.

"this distortion forms part of the basis for French hatred of Americans too - American optimism and self confidence is UNBEARABLE to the cynical French... Many would love to see us harmed, to see us fail in the world" The French resent the fact that the Americans still have faith in something and are able to name "good" and "evil". They laugh at the American so called "religious fundamentalism" as if it is totally barbarian to go to church. However, they dare not say a word against the imams...

This is a summary of what the average young Parisian / "lobotomised" French person says about the US:

- In America, inequalities are huge, if you are sick and have no money, you die. There is no social protection and the only thing people are interested in, is money.
- The American people have no culture and no taste. They are all fat and watch TV and eat hamburgers.
- The Americans want to conquer the world and for that they are ready for any injustice, torture, etc. They claim they are good people but in fact, they are more cruel than any other nation.
- The Americans only care about themwelves. They pollute the earth and waste more energy than any other country.
- The American are religious fundamentalists, comparable to Ben Laden and Co. They can put you into jail if you dont go to church, if you sleep with your neighbour's wife...
- The Americans are racist and hence, the American jails are full of black people.
- The Americans are barbarians and uncivilised because they still apply death penalty, mostly to young, black (innocent) people.

On the contrary, of course, France is the enlightened nation, humanist, able to help all the other nations, to protect its Poor, to protect the Earth, to abide by international Law... with culture everywhere, refinement, and the French are advanced in that they are not stupid enough to think that there is an "Evil" and a "Good". No, those wise French people know that the criminals are in fact innocent victims... they are "beyond Good and Evil" (so in practice, they keep excusing the criminals and are not interested in the victims - cf the recent riots).

"But make no mistake, American nonchalance doesn't mean there aren't consequences for France's contempt of America..." I am actually stunned at the Americans' patience and tolerance towards the French.

"This, and an infinite Gaulic pride, seriously limits France's options in the world - and forces them into the company of other dogs and snakes". Indeed, the French have always tried to ally the Arabs against Israel, in order to have power on the US. You hear everyday some French people praising Iran, Morroco, Qatar etc. whilst they claim that the US is the kingdom of Evil.

Personally, I got divorced from France after 9/11, because so many people around me rejoiced. I heard people say "Good thing that they died" and hence, I have known, from that moment, that I will one day become an American. After all, the US was created by some Europeans fleeing oppression, and it is what is happening in France again: oppression.

One of the reason why I like Sarkozy is because he is not anti American. Let me remind you he is from Hungarian origin, some emigrates who fled the Russians to go to France. And he is also partly Jewish. To know more about the story of the next French President, read that article (in English):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarkozy

I think he will be the next President of France (recent poll: 70 % of the French were backing him) and hence we can expect better relations between France and the USA. It has to be noted that the French politicians often use anti americanism to be popular, because it flatters the lowest feelings of our fellow citizens, it is an easy critic and at least, everybody agrees on it ! It is like our football team, something which makes everybody feel part of the same country ! But Sarkozy would not do that.

Lastly, it would be interesting to have real figures about the French anti americanism. It is possible that the "simple people" are not that anti american. And people can say they hate the US but when they meet some Americans, still find them nice and get along with them better than they would get along with people from totally different cultures. So all my last comments apply to the category of people I know the best: the Parisians, mostly young, who went to university + the media, journalists, who are all very left wing.

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 19, 2005 2:14 PM

Hi joiesauvage...

"It is possible that the "simple people" are not that anti american. "

I am CERTAIN this is true... I think many across Europe are desperate and furious over the horrific incompetencies of their leadership... European leadership is far worse than our own in America, and that must really suck! The people know it too well...

I am sure these 'simple people' are probably natural friends of America and Americans... I somehow doubt they are ashamed to talk about "good" and "evil" or discuss patriotism... I am certain they have common sense. If Americans seem like we are similar, that we are peasants -- WHO CARES? I'm not ashamed. Our countries are BELOVED to us... There is no shame in that... Just the opposite is true -- The fancy post modern elite should be ashamed...

First -- THEY ARE WRONG... Their theoretical utopian deconstructed world has turned into another nightmare...

Second -- THEY ARE DANGEROUS... They continue to repeat the same lies and distortions and refuse to face the damage they have causede... They refuse to listen to the people...

Third -- THEY ARE GOING TO DESTROY EUROPE... What punishment can be devised for these traitors? I can't think of anything sufficient to make them pay for their crimes against the West...

America is guilty of some of these things on a far smaller scale -- But Europeans must begin waking up... Europe's future is in doubt! The statistics on your socialist economies, the demographics of your post modern breeding habits compared to the breeding seething exploding Muslim masses is very grim indeed, and the recent calamity of the riots is only the tip of the iceburg... These are very bad signs...

I was greatly encouraged by one thing recently -- the COMPLETE rejection of the EU Constitution -- it was a very hopeful sign I thought... But there is so much more to do... As you say, perhaps it's not too late... Already the morons in leadership are beginning to beat the drum about Turkish accession, and the laughable "Counterweight to American Hegemony" idea is rearing its ludicrous head again -- back to very bad signs...

Posted by: jsla at November 19, 2005 7:39 PM

JSLA,
Unfortunately, most of the people who voted against the EU Constitution did it because they thought the EU Constitution was too "free market oriented" !! So it was the communists and co. But the other people voted against because they are indeed fed up with our politicians and "elite" and also the media propaganda (the media were all FOR the Constitution, they threatened us like "if the Constitution is not voted, it will be a catastrophe" etc. and it made people angry).
Another great news was when Le Pen did such a good score at the 2002 Elections, I tell you why: there had been such a propaganda in the media, during months and months, about the fact that Jospin (the socialist candidate) was the best, that he would win, that the polls were for him... it just pissed people off ! I know some people who usually dont vote for Le Pen, but they voted for Le Pen just to evince Jospin and it did work: Le Pen did more than Jospin on the first round ! You should have looked at the faces of the journalists when they got the news... he he he !
So the French people are able to show their angriness in quite a funny way... They dont lack humour ! and you might also be glad to know that less and less people read our newspapers. At the moment, Sarkozy is getting such a large support from the people that it seems that the journalists have decided just not to talk about it. So last week we had a poll showing Villepin and Chirac percentage of popularity... but nothing about Sarkozy ! Everybody knows that when people do a poll, they ask about a lot of politicians, not only Villepin and Chirac, so we drew the conclusion that Sarkozy did such a good score that the journalists decided not mention it.
Yes, sometimes, our journalists sulk...

Posted by: joiesauvage at November 20, 2005 11:04 AM