He was always, morally, an ass. For worrying so much about the American bombing of Dresden, in Nazi Germany, in what was it? -- "Cat's Cradle" -- a clear demonstration of that. People who think that the American and British bombing of Germany can be mentioned in the same breath with what the Germans did are moral idiots. Vonnegut was and is a moral idiot. And he no doubt had some kind of influence on the already idiotic young who appparently found him so appealing. I was of that age. I couldn't stand him.

Posted by: Hugh at November 19, 2005 8:59 AM

What an arrogant %$@#! How about the high the people whose bodies are being pierced by screws and ball bearings, the people who wake up with missing limbs, or mangled, the high that the family and friends and community feel when they find out their loved ones have been ripped apart by one of these monsters? Vonnegut can go to hell.

Quijybo

Posted by: Quijybo at November 19, 2005 9:19 AM

Hugh:

I could not agree with you more. Apparently even as far back as WWII, Vonnegut while in the middle of a conflagration as a POW in Dresden was able to be sympathetic to the enemy. The Nazis' had no concern as they through everything they could at Britain night after night; buzz bombers ,V1 and V2 rockets with greatly motivated compulsion.

The problem with people like Vonnegut irrespective of his performance in the Battle of the Bulge is that you cannot have it both ways when you fight against a determined enemy.

Mr.Vonnegut forgot that we did not have smart bombs in those days. What is terribly Clear though is that he has no demonstrated understanding of the Islamic Ideology of Jihad that has been an ever growing aggressor all over the planet.

With his kind of thinking, we would all be speaking either Japanese, or German by now.

Posted by: Mackie at November 19, 2005 9:34 AM

I liked him better when he wrote as Kilgore Trout. Feh.

Posted by: Gary at November 19, 2005 10:04 AM

...or perhaps that was Phillip Jose Farmer. In any case- no offense to those who do Not have a grudge against people of faith- I wonder if he and nariz belonged to the same organizations?

Posted by: Gary at November 19, 2005 10:06 AM

Having been a POW in WWII,I wonder if Vonnegut has been suffering all this time from an untreated malady of "Stockholm Syndrome"?

Posted by: Mackie at November 19, 2005 10:16 AM

I think the Dresden incident happened in SlaughterHouse Five, not Cat's Cradle.

Posted by: kafira at November 19, 2005 10:21 AM

So suicide bombing is "Dulce et Decorum Est" Kurt? You are cordially invited to taste the sweetness yourself -- in the middle of a barren wasteland so that you, and only you, will feel the effect and harm no one else. The sweetness seems to be lost on the innocent victims of these valiant warriors that you idolize in these moronic and misplaced ramblings. Dotter on somewhere else, your freedom to make an ass of your esteemed self (self-esteemed?) is insured by those you mock. Those you praise will surely eat you last. Clue: writers are usually the first to be purged.

Posted by: QuickHenryTheFlit at November 19, 2005 10:37 AM

I was of that age. I couldn't stand him.
Ditto.
As I had friends who were fans, and frequently being in need of a light book (physical weight) to read on the train I borrowed enough to be able to support that opinion.

I think Kafira is right, the Dresden episode is from Slaughterhouse 5; I don't recall cats cradle being among the selection I did persevere with before I was driven to my Mother's collection of Catherine Cookson. Which shows how poorly I took to Vonnegut.

I grew up in a London that was still badly damaged by the blitz. My father was in the fire brigade, my Mother worked on munitions, my future Mother-in-law was a nurse dealing with the casualties, my aunt of 4'9" was ARP. My grandparent's house was bombed out and my Nan and younger uncles lived for some weeks afterwards at Liverpool Street underground station.
15 years later I played on bomb sites which would still be closed suddenly when a uxb was discovered (that still happens even now, 60 years later) Todays adventure playgrounds are for wimps. The bombing of Malta, I believe, was even worse. So while I can have sympathy for the people of Dresden, who suffered a fellow experience to that of my family, I cannot regard it as the atrocity that certain others do.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 19, 2005 10:40 AM

I wonder if he has studied Islam.
He sounds to me like someone who is ignorant of the basic Islamic tenets of hatred and total intolerance to non-believers. He sees the conflict morally in terms of a simpler time between more honorable opponents. Perhaps he sees parallels between Islamic suicide bombers and Kamikaze pilots. Very sad.

I've always been amused by his writing.
However, even though he has brilliantly and humorously portrayed the essential idiocy of much of mankind's behaviour I can't recall his actually finding any solutions.

It's as if he points out the folly of man's behaviour and then goes and watches TV or in some other way just tunes out...like his characters.

Posted by: Mike_W at November 19, 2005 10:50 AM

I've never heard of this guy. I've never read any of his works, but from the sounds of it, I'm blessed in that regard. Now let me see if I've got this right: he's a pacifist, but fought in WWII, and now supports terrorism...Can we say "delusional and psychotic." I can't believe that we let people like him stay here. We should just stick him in a box and send him to Iran, or Saudi Arabia. Even though he thinks terrorism is "cool" (to use his "drug street slang" like some teenage kid), because he is not a muslim, he wouldn't last five minutes there. Someone should really slap some reality into his thick skull.

Posted by: pastor_matt023 at November 19, 2005 11:41 AM

Vonnegut is among my favorite writers, and he remains so. As writers of fiction, Leftists can be quite talented; it's when they try to dabble in reality that they slip up. Leftists are masters at living in what the philosopher Voegelin called a "Second Reality" -- and such mastery is no mark of distinction but the mark of a colossal moral and psychological failure. Still, sometimes the artwork of mental patients can be quite entertaining.

Slaughterhouse-Five is the novel about Dresden, among other things.

The novels I liked best were God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater, as well as Breakfast of Champions, and his final novel (he announced his retirement from writing fiction at that time) Timequake.

That quote from the article here --

"[Voegelin] equated the actions of suicide bombers with US president Harry Truman's 1945 decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima" --

is priceless, and reveals deliciously the twisted & childish logic of the Leftist, demonstrating an astonishing inability to put two and two together:

1) Hiroshima was horrible and evil and shows how horrible and evil America is

2) suicide bombers are freedom fighters defending their honor and "self respect"

3) the actions of suicide bombers can be equated with the action of Truman dropping the bomb on Hiroshima.

Now, if the Leftist with his short attention span will try to remember his #1 assertion, he would find himself, at the very least, in a position to condemn the suicide bomber. Yet somehow, the Leftist has a missing synapse that enables him to indulge, forever, the blatant contradiction:

Suicide bombers = Hiroshima

Suicide bombers -- good

Hiroshima -- bad

Of course, even if the Leftist were to dissolve the contradiction by condemning suicide bombers (equally with Truman), that would still be unacceptable to us. But at least the Leftist would be showing the incipient signs of an intelligent contact with First Reality.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 19, 2005 11:45 AM

"So while I can have sympathy for the people of Dresden, who suffered a fellow experience to that of my family, I cannot regard it as the atrocity that certain others do."

Not only that -- all the post modern latter day revisionism ignores what would have happened had Germany and Japan not been BROUGHT TO THEIR KNEES IN UTTER SUBJUGATION -- We'd have settled for half compromises which would have all but guaranteed the resurgence of Japanese Fascist Imperialism, and Nazism and fascism would rule Europe even more than they already do today! What would the consequences be had we not ANNIHILATED these ideologies through all out war? Perhaps nothing can be worse than the fates of people under the pall of bombs in Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, Tokyo, Horoshima etc -- Nothing, that is, unless you consider the idea that rather than dozens of annihilated cities killing hundreds of thousands in a stretch, you extapolate it out to tens of thousands of cities with hundreds of millions immolated in like manner...

And NEVER forget that the harrowing deeds visited upon the Germans and Japanese were ultimately their own doing... they had chances to modify their dreams of world domination -- they had chances to "moderate" their beliefs -- they had chances to step back from the brink -- they were warned -- yet they insisted on transgressing... They did this because they were convinced the timing was right, and their goals might be realized. And of course we now know our victory was NOT guaranteed.... They could have won...

It sounds vaguely familiar -- Oh yes -- JihadWatch...

Posted by: jsla at November 19, 2005 11:55 AM

It's hard to tell if Vonnegut's remarks can be excused by senility, but I don't think so. I've heard allegedly sane westerners half his age praise Atta et al., citing the same kinds of absurdity as justification. What can we say? Useful idiots like Vonnegut need only read the Koran themselves to find out the terrorists' justifications.

Vonnegut thinks that a bunch of brain-washed death-cultists, who did not believe that they themselves would die but instead would be ushered to the highest place in paradise, with 72 perpetual virgins, etc., were courageous. Nonsense. Courage requires acting, in spite of a legitimate fear, for the greater good. Courage was exemplified by the people attacked on 9/11 as they risked their lives, and gave their lives, trying to save innocent lives. Al-Qaeda, and Vonnegut, think that the lives of those who died on 9/11 were worth nothing. Maybe Vonnegut thinks world-wide dominance under sharia rule is the 'greater good.'

There are a couple of things that Vonnegut can do to help his country.

1. Read the Koran and get educated.
2. Failing 1, go join al Qaeda. With your intellect on their side, you will make our job of demolishing them so much easier.

Posted by: Archimedes at November 19, 2005 12:58 PM

Bomber Harris deserved the statue erected in his honor.

Posted by: Hugh at November 19, 2005 1:14 PM

Bomber Harris deserved the statue erected in his honour

He did. I watched it the morning it was lowered in place outside St Clement Danes, supervised by the sculptor Faith Winter. I was late for work but had to watch, fascinated. Although it was defaced quite quickly by militant pacifists it is still notable how the flowers laid in tribute out number any protest.
That first week after it was unveiled by the Queen Mother I took particular notice of the notes accompaning the posies. Flowers placed by people from the East End, Coventry, Plymouth Rotterdam and "now in Israel" stick in my mind.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 19, 2005 1:58 PM

V1 = Buzz Bomb
V2 = Rocket

Posted by: PRCS at November 19, 2005 2:20 PM

Clearly Mr. Vonnegut has just awoken from his time capsule and realised its not 1969 anymore. He questions the patriotism of Mr. Bush the american people and the war in Iraq for three reasons:

1. Because he doen't have a fucking clue.
2. Because he is a lunatic in need of treatment if he thinks it is brave, sweet and honourable for a crazy penis loving muslim to blow himself up killing inoccent men wowmen and children.
3. Because he thinks the young american kids who go to Iraq to fight crazy muslims and give their life freely to make sure that what happened on 9/11 does not happen again are evil bone sucking monsters instead of HEROES!!!!

Well here is a three question test I put to this moron so that he can get his equilibrium back FAST.

QUESTION 1:
The US liberated Iraq so as:
A- To spread western influence (a.k.a. democracy) in the Middle East
B- To find weapons of Mass Destruction
C- To steal Iraq’s oil

If your answer is C, then you should know that the cost of the war greatly exceeds the potential oil revenue. I say 'potential' because the oil belongs to Iraq and nobody seriously believed that the USA were going to pump Iraq’s oil and steal the money from the Iraqi people - except leftist liberals and muslims maybe.

QUESTION 2:
US policy-makers wanted to liberate Iraq because:
A- they are pro-democracy neocons
B- they are crusaders
C- they wanted to give juicy contracts to their friends at Halliburton, BP, Chevron, Shell etc
D- they are jews

If your answer is C or D then you should know that the US forced the UN to launch an inquiry on the oil-for-food scandal. Here are some of the corporations that were implicated by the Volcker commission : Chevron, Texaco, Mobil, Shell, BP.

Please ask youself, if oil corporations which are "controlled by jews" in turn control the US government and are powerful enough to make America go to war, would you expect the the Bush government to launch an inquiry against 'big oil'? Answer me punk ass!

QUESTION 3:
If you answered C or D to any of the previous two questions, please answer the following :

Would you describe yourself as:
A-A relic of the 60's and a drug peddling wishy washy intellecutal
B-An old windbag idiot looking for some publicity for your book
C-Anti-Semitic, anti-American lefty
C-A conspiracy theorist
D-A loser
E-all of the above

The Correct answers Mr .Vonnegut are: A-A-E

Ignorance is bliss....

Posted by: Shunkleash at November 19, 2005 2:29 PM

His books were of some amusement, as were the recurring characters eg the science fiction writer Kilgore Trout (himself?). Galapagos (circa mid-1980s?) was written in the future tense and future-perfect tense. From memory, the identity of the first person was the ghost of a Swedish seaman (did someone say "Stockholm Syndrome"?). Maybe his mind was slipping then. Nevertheless, Vonnegut owes it to his readers and the homocidal bombers themselves, to to some elementary research on Islam.

Posted by: islamophobic pride at November 19, 2005 3:22 PM

Or as they were familiarly known in England
V1 Doodlebug
V2 Flying bomb.

According to my parents the doodlebugs, while they killed people, were not so feared. They were slow and easily shot down. I still have one of my Father's books, the account of a senior fire officer of racing a doodlebug down the A12 road, hoping to get to a fire before it did. When the sound of the engine cut out, that meant it was about to drop.
The V2's were hated. They were silent, flying faster than sound, and indescriminate where they landed. Literally the places they landed on never heard what hit them. The noise came after the destruction.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 19, 2005 3:37 PM

There are many extenuating factors besides his politics that explain Mr. Vonnegut's bizarre statements. He's an 83 year old who's had a very hard life. He was imprisoned in World War II, which inspired his semibiographical novel Slaughterhouse Five, and has a history of smoking, alcholism and depression that led him to try to commit suicide in 1984. His mother Edith Lieber committed suicide and his son Mark is a schizophrenic. These factors probably go a long way to explaining Mr. Vonnegut's fascination with death.

Posted by: Patrick at November 19, 2005 4:24 PM

These comments come as no surprise to me -- Mr. Vonnegut's orientation was evident long ago -- Any American who believed in fighting was depicted as a bumblehead or genuine psychopath -- any character who resisted the 'fascist warmonger' was a hero... It was the age of "man against the machine' or more accurately 'man against the "bad" collective in favor of the "good" collective.' All authority figures were depicted as perverts, or power addicted fascist drones... He was very lucky to find a receptive audience for his messages in its day...

I wonder if his morose despairing books are still taught as "great literature" as they were when I was in school? I remember my marxist indoctrinators trying to shove crap like "Cat's Cradle" "Slaughterhouse 5" and "Breakfast of Champions" down my throat and gushing over this drivel as if it was on par with Thomas Moore, Plato, Hegel, or Shakespeare... They couldn't wait to shove these pet anti-American theories of false "anti-war," false "anti-fascism," false "liberalism," false "multiculturalism" along with their idolatry of the anti-hero down our poor starving little intellectual gullets... It is now gratifying to witness these false prophets fall clattering and muttering all the way towards their meeting with earth...

It must be especially hard after the fall for them to see the irrepressible Americans, who, despite the efforts of Fondas, Daschles, Vonneguts, Vidals, and Haydens, still remains -- Not only remains, but remains one willing to spend trillions for her defense, and to kick some scrofulous butt...

With each bullet we fire, each billion we spend, whether on boondoggles or equipment, more secret jails... each thing America does must seem to these tired out infidels like daggers in the heart -- a new crushing stone laid upon their chest, added to the mound which history is preparing and upon which they will be forgotten.

Posted by: jsla at November 19, 2005 5:03 PM

..or perhaps that was Phillip Jose Farmer. In any case- no offense to those who do Not have a grudge against people of faith- I wonder if he and nariz belonged to the same organizations? Posted by: Gary

That's enough slander Gary. The only "people of faith" that I have a grudge against are those who are fascistic in their faith, and at the top of that list lie the Muslims.

I've already stated, that I am as Orianna Fallaci, a product of western Christianity, my values are a derivative of my liberal (not fundamentalist or uptight Roman Catholic) morality..They are true Judeo Christian values, the best, not the worst.

People of faith come in all flavors, and you ostensibly have your negative opinions about some people of faith.

And FYI, I was a Trad Catholic, Catholic Truth, underground Latin Masses, and Latin Hymns. And I still feel the hair on the back of my neck rise, when I think of those masses, hear those songs, and I adore Gregorian Chants. And each year I put up my Christmas Tree, and play Handels Messiah.

My problem is not with faith, but with some arsehole people of faith, like you and the muslims, whom you resemble more than you realize.

Posted by: Nariz at November 19, 2005 7:53 PM

His life hasn't been so hard. He's a bad but successful writer. He has done ads -- for some Healthcare company I think -- with his son (who has done his own series). There are plenty of people who have had it far worse. They don't write books that are full of sympathy for the Germans during World War II being bombed by the Allies. And his latest statements show moral dementia, which one might link to the more general kind, except that he has given evidence of such moral dementia long before. The amount of sympathy available should be rationed. He long ago used up his ration card.

Posted by: Hugh at November 19, 2005 8:09 PM

I have another comment for Gary.

Your behavior is that of an infantile mind, taunting, petulant wounded.

You have a penchant for striking out and striking back, behind the back, at those whom you feel wound you, or whom perhaps threaten you somehow.

I notice that you have a penchant, for making snide comments and slanderous accusations against people, who may or may not have visited a thread or read your post.

The mature person responds,on topic, to the articles posted and not grab any opportunity to make snide remarks and slanderous accusations against people whom might not even have read them or have a chance to respond.

But that doesn't stop you. I noticed you make slanderous accusations against me every chance you get, even when I'm not around to respond.

Your behavior Gary is identical to the behavior of children in a school yard, yelling neeners, neeners, neeners and hurling gossip and slander behind their back.

You do not do yourself, your cause or this site any favors nor bring credit to them.

And further Gary, I take notice, that for a young boy with VERY Strong opinions and beliefs, you lack the facility, intellectually and morally to back up those opinions, either by answering cogent and precise questions like kj's,perenial question which you constantly avoid (very Muslim like BTW), or stepping into a venue where you don't have a hallelujah chorus and waging your own personal Jihad (which in my estimation is not at all Islami related, but a Jihad against some bete noire of your imagination, one created by Rush Limbaugh maybe, called "liberal" or leftists).

I will give you this much though, you (and others like you who post here) have a distinct facility for converting allies into enemies, merely because they don't drink your Kool Aid.

For every non religious "liberal" or "leftist" whom you taunt, threaten, try (and I mean try, for you fail to succeed) to ridicule or intimidate, you actually create a sympathiser for the Muslims.

Your attitude, tactics, rhetoric stink and are counterproductive.. but you are too full of ego and self to realize it, and too immature to admit it.

Shame on you.

Posted by: Nariz at November 19, 2005 8:14 PM

You once told one of the other posters here that he suffered from a neurological disorder, ie, because he believed in a Higher Authority.

And then you laughed at him.

We defeated those people who looked upon the Jews in the same fashion, 60 years ago.

I have NO respect for you, I have NO need to answer you on anything, and I hope to God that your particular mind-set never gets into the Oval Office.

Zieg Heil, buddy.

Posted by: Gary at November 19, 2005 8:24 PM

Vonnegut suggested suicide bombers must feel an "amazing high". He said: "You would know death is going to be painless, so the anticipation - it must be an amazing high."

This "amazing high" is nothing more than a twisted feeling of adrenalin and satisfaction about murdering innocent people.

The last high of a terrorist sharply contrasts the terrible feeling that awaits them in the after life-not in the bosom of Allah's virgin whore house- but in the depths of hell.

Posted by: Johnathan at November 19, 2005 8:36 PM

83 year old Vonnegut's glorification of suicide bombers comes out of his lack of knowledge of these islamic bombers motives and faith. One cannot equate the real advanced countries war tactis,where in your enemy will be fighting face to face with you,to these suicide bombers' cowardly and sissy method of ignigting themselves among innocent civilians.This is no warfare at all!. Furthermore,a person,of Vonnegut's caliber should be more patriotic to his country ,rathter than glorifying an enemy of his country. It is the curse of America- the very people,who eat the fat of the country,throw mud at their own country men,support Amercica's enemies,for their own selfish goals. There is no unity of US countrymen to stand as a single block against the enemy. Otherwise,will the CAIR,and other such organisations will be functioning in our own country ,demanding action against true american patriots?

Posted by: rafia at November 19, 2005 9:09 PM

So I'm sure he would have the same admiration for George if he dropped one on some key islamic city............like Mecca??????????

I am fighting for my self respect by demanding that my leaders protect me and my family by bombing Islam into submission.

Posted by: RedTemplar at November 19, 2005 9:25 PM

"83 year old Vonnegut's glorification of suicide bombers comes out of his lack of knowledge of these islamic bombers motives and faith."

No, not so much a "lack of knowledge" explains Vonnegut's dementia, but a presence of PC "knowledge".

Half of you posters here at jihadwatch are still clueless. It's 2005, over 4 years since 911, and you are still clueless about the scourge of Leftism that is crippling and hobbling the West's concerted response to the problem of Islam.

I can only shake my head.

We now have 3 terrible Problems to deal with:

1) Islam

2) PC Leftism

3) The inability of a good half of the non-PC minority to see the #2 problem.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 19, 2005 10:34 PM

Awhile back in the spring I had a dispute on a forum that lead to a issue with Vonnegut and the person touting kurt as a genius and great thinker failed to see the pattern from his brief biography that was a condenced version with key historic events.

Kurt had a painfull upbringing with a suicidal parent and going through the depression with a father ekeing out an existance .
Allot of Kurts tragedies were internalized as if responsible for them and his observations of family tragedies created the mind set to focus on the event and not use foresight to see the challenge to learn from it and create a new reality to lifes pitfalls many of us survive.

One telling sign of a learn behaviour when the targedy bell rang and made him salavate was from "Slaughterhouse 5 " and his versioon of the Liberation of Europe from the Nazis .
This event mirrors the Iraq tragedy that Kurt misread , while war was never meant to be fair of even wanted it can be viewed in the futuristic hindsight as needing to be done so children won't have to re-fight the same issues in 30 year .

Kurt wrote that he saw the allied planes near his camp and saw the bombs bring so much pain and death that he was sick of what the west was doing , the past set him up for failure because Kurt should have saw all the future children that could live free and live long enoough to see grand children hae the same life of peace.

Kurt would have us believe that if we took all the guns away from the Police we would see crime go down to almost Zero , and if Israel disarmed itself all the Palestinians and Islamists would open of flower shops and start quilting circles.
Emotion oftens hides the truth or what must be done and the idea that Al-Qaeda and the terrorists are the victims is a dangerous and naive perspective on the reality of our world.

The only advantage to this type of person is that while our survival instincts kick in and creat well-founded fears to be heeded , the Jihadists will kill most of these idiots first and the real warriors that want peace will fight these cowards and thugs to stop them from passing on their defective gene that is in the self-distruct modes and wants to take us with them.

Kurt has been a victim of his own upbringing
where pain was embraced and taking risks was for fools that don't know the future, but Kurt would still be in that Camp if selfless pilots thought like him and stayed at home in their comfort zone and felt it's better to keep people in cages for life than bomb they for a day of liberation.

The paradoxical irony by these people is amazing , and the leftists actually think we can't see their mistakes because WE are the idiots that die for their freedom.

Posted by: ala-sux at November 20, 2005 1:42 AM

If vonnegut really thinks that mass murder suicide bombers experience and "amazing high," then he is either mad or very ignorant or both. These bombers are typically very nervous and tense. That's one of the ways in which they can be spotted. After all, they are not always sure that they are really going to be rewarded with their 72 virgins or boys in paradise.

Speaking of how so many academics and artists --would-be or genuine-- talk this mad/moronic pro-terrorist line, recall that before and at the beginning of WW2, many artists/writers/academics/journalists in Britain and France were pro-Hitler, really that Hitler wanted peace, etc. Consider Jean Giraudoux, Marcel Deat, and others. The novelist Jean Giono wrote that Hitler was a poet in action, or something similar. So this disease of the "intellectuals" or trahison des clercs/treason of the intellectuals, as Julien Benda put it, goes way back. And one way to fight it is to point out what I just wrote: That this mental disease goes way back. By the way, Giraudoux was a pro-Nazi French playwright who wrote The Trojan War Will Not Take Place [La Guerre de Troie n'aura pas lieu], usually called Tiger at the Gates in English. This play by a Nazi-lover was a favorite of the anti-war left during the 1960s.

Posted by: Eliyahu at November 20, 2005 9:36 AM

Great author

Political idiot

He never got back from the 60's, and that's why his books since, SUCK

On the other hand, many of the rest of us DID get back.

I'll always have fond place in my heart for Billy Pilgrim, Sallo (Sirens of Titan) and Ice-9 (Cat's Cradle), but they are no substitute for the reality of 767's on the 73rd floor, and their REAL meaning about commmittment to action in the REAL world.

He's hardly worth quoting about real events

Posted by: epaminondas at November 20, 2005 9:46 AM

Patrick wrote "There are many extenuating factors besides his politics that explain Mr. Vonnegut's bizarre statements. He's an 83 year old who's had a very hard life. He was imprisoned in World War II, which inspired his semibiographical novel Slaughterhouse Five, and has a history of smoking, alcholism and depression that led him to try to commit suicide in 1984. His mother Edith Lieber committed suicide and his son Mark is a schizophrenic. These factors probably go a long way to explaining Mr. Vonnegut's fascination with death."

Thanks for the explanation, Patrick. Vonnegut wore thin for me pretty quickly. Although his writing is well crafted, his content is morally lazy and he is, finally, cynical. Reading him was the equivalent of being lectured by a bar-fly (no thanks!) and now I understand my impressions were formed by his suffering.

Of course, the thing to be concerned about is not what poor Mr. Vonnegut has to say, but that there are those who seek him out for his sadly blunted opinions and then print them as if they were thoughtful. Now that is troublesome.

Posted by: Daisytoo at November 21, 2005 1:43 AM

"Half of you posters here at jihadwatch are still clueless."

Now, come on. We're not ALL that bad, Dr Pepper.

"We now have 3 terrible Problems to deal with:

1) Islam

2) PC Leftism

3) The inability of a good half of the non-PC minority to see the #2 problem."

I keep telling/reminding my leftist friends of the political INcorrectness of Islam. They are stunned into silence.

Posted by: islamophobic pride at November 21, 2005 5:54 AM

As a teen, I discovered Kurt Vonnegut and Saul Bellow at about the same time. To this day, I think Bellow, Alov Hasholom, had (and still has) a lot more to say. Shortly after having _Slaughterhouse 5_foisted on me, I was on a trip, needed a sci-fi book to pass the time, and picked up something entitled _Mr. Sammler's Planet_ (by Bellow). It turned out to be something other than the Sci Fi I wanted, but it was perhaps the first literary work that made think that maybe civilization was both salvageable and worth salvage.

The Bible came next.

Mr. Vonnegut, kindly shut up. Try to teach your pacifism to the Filastin Arabs you so admire these days.

Posted by: Kepha at November 21, 2005 11:46 AM

Kepha:

Vonnegut clearly falls into the category Orwell described as "intellectual pacifist" and dismissed as default fascists.

I used to enjoy reading his books when I was younger. Many of them were very amusing, and his style so read-able, but I expect if I tried reading much of it again, save perhaps the short stories, that they'd be terribly, terribly dated. Bellow's work, I expect would stand the test of time much better. Thanks for reminding me of Mr. Sammler's Planet, one of my favourites among Bellow's novels along with Humboldt's Gift.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 21, 2005 12:53 PM

"If vonnegut really thinks that mass murder suicide bombers experience and "amazing high," then he is either mad or very ignorant or both. "

I say who cares how they feel? It is immaterial...

Note to self:

When confronted with an enemy who has proven he will stop at nothing to annihilate you -- when confronted with an enemy who has proven he is undeterrable (Japanese Kamikazes, Muslim homicide bombers) ponder the humanity of the enemy after you have first killed him... That's the time to get all reflective and stuff... Not while he's coming after you...

The mindset which imagines that its defense will be enhanced by wasting time and energy pondering the humanity of his enemy is foolish in the extreme. Fantasizing that by understanding those who hate you and want to murder you- imagining that they can somehow be mollified or assuaged by something you yourself can do, can learn, can think about them... This is a mythic belief -- it betrays a certain naievete and a dangerous delusion of omnipotence -- It is deadly....

Posted by: jsla at November 21, 2005 5:04 PM

Vonnegut is committing an act of evil in praising suicide bombers (although the terms human sacrifice bombers or plain mass murderers would be far more apt)--whether or not he knows it. I never would have believed a writer of his stature would be capable of such a thing.

I sure hope Vonnegut doesn't mind losing democracy, freedom, and western civilization. Because at this point these WILL be lost if more of us behave like this man is.

Is this guy going senile or on something? Or has he always been like this?

Whatever--I am now getting rid of all copies of my Vonnegut novels (dozens). Good riddance.

I am truly horrified!

Posted by: pythagoras at November 22, 2005 8:00 PM