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British police are afraid that closing down mosque that exhort Muslims to wage violent jihad "may be seen as an attack on Islam," and assert that there are better ways to deal with the problem.
So fair and foul an example of dhimmitude and wrongheadedness I have not seen. Beckley should realize that the threat to close down mosques that preach jihad and the overthrow -- by peaceful and/or violent means -- of the British state could be the only thing that could mobilize peaceful Muslims in Britain to act against the jihadists and root them out of their communities. Or if they didn't do so, then at least we would know where the Muslims in Britain really stand.
"Worship closure plan criticised," from the BBC, with thanks to Daffersd:
Top police officers have criticised plans to allow the shutting down of places of worship such as mosques suspected of inciting extremism.In their response to proposals to give courts the power to close such premises, police warned there were better ways to deal with the problem.
Assistant Chief Constable Rob Beckley of the Association of Chief Police Officers said it was a "blunt tool".
"This proposal might be seen as an attack on religion," he said.
A consultation period on the plans, first mooted by Prime Minister Tony Blair in August, ended three weeks ago.
In response ACC Beckley, who is responsible for Acpo's community relations, said the plan could be seen as specifically targeting Islam.
"Being radical, being extreme in itself is not an offence," he said....
In other words, preaching the subversion of the British state and its replacement by a Sharia government -- by peaceful means -- is just fine by Beckley. Time to measure this man for a zunnar. His sanguine attitude toward Hizb-ut-Tahrir is another indication that he doesn't have a clue of what Britain is really up against:
The government is also considering banning the radical Muslim group Hizb-ut-Tahrir.ACC Beckley told Today: "They proclaim themselves to be against violence - what we need to do is test that but not just automatically ban them because there are some radicals within their organisation.
"There are individuals who we might be wanting to take action against or to look at very closely."
He added: "Extremism and radicalism, where it is not an offence - we don't want to drive that underground."
Posted by Robert at December 1, 2005 6:21 AM
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Extremism and radicalism, where it is not an offence - we don't want to drive that underground
No indeed, 52 people died the last time that evil went by the underground.
Couple this idiot with the other idiots who decided the diversity policy that means that 200 white male candidates for Avon and Somerset were turned down.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1895364,00.html
Then Sir Ian Blair, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police lambasts the middle classes for feeling too superior to apply to the police as a career. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1875819,00.html
Then having recruited two suitably diverse women in their first months on duty, probationers still, they rush together to answer a call http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1878390,00.html and one is killed and the other wounded.
How can they defend us, and maintain their morale, when they are so undermined from within?
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at December 1, 2005 7:06 AM
What is it about law enforcement?
The FBI is one of the most Dhimmified institutions in the USA. Have you ever seen Director Muller at a press conference or testifying to Congress? Among other liabilities, he is one of the few public servants in the country less articulate than the President himself.
He sends agents to CAIR for 'cultural sensitivity training' (the phrase itself makes me want puke). I understand the tactical benefits of keeping open the lines of communication to a community where potential terrorists exist in abundance. But are such efforts producing the desired reciprocity?
Has CAIR helped break up a single terrorist cell in the USA?
Posted by: Cornelius at December 1, 2005 7:27 AM
Also, there's the selective lens of the media. Of maybe 100 good cops who think closing mosques is the leasy we could do, there qwould be one dhimmi idiot (closet moslem, maybe?) who'll spout dhimmi nonsense and its precisely that nonsense that'll get more column space than the convictions of the good 100.
Posted by: voletti at December 1, 2005 7:32 AM
Okay then how many more bombings do the British Police need to understand HOW DANGEROUS RADICALISM AND
EXTREMISM ARE!
Otherwise a fantastic idea which needs to be put in place - tomorrow wouldn't be too soon. With cowardly Top Policemen, critters like Red Ken and Galloway lurking, bumbling pro-Islamic Charlie : the common folk of Britain are not well
served. Maybe it's time for an INFIDEL REVOLUTION
folks?
at December 1, 2005 8:00 AM
The UK continues to be the heart and soul of the Ummah in the West. Britain is home to nearly 2 million Muslims -- many of whom have been thrown out of other countries for extremism -- and their paladins: the BBC, Reuters, The Guardian, the Human Rights Racket Brigade along with dozens of public officials who are beholden to their Muslim constituency including the Foreign Minister and the Mayor of London.
Under the guise of liberalism, Britain is slowly but surely straitjacketing itself into a state where it will no longer be able to resist the most insidious form of Islamic conquest. It is instructive to compare the articles on this page highlighting the distinct responses to the threat by France and the UK. I do not count myself as a Francophile but the first country in Europe to accommodate Sharia will not be on the south side of the English Channel.
Posted by: Charles Martel at December 1, 2005 8:28 AM
the BBC, Reuters, The Guardian, the Human Rights Racket Brigade along with dozens of public officials who are beholden to their Muslim constituency including the Foreign Minister and the Mayor of London.
And let's not forget George effin' Galloway. Theoretically there's no 'f' in Galloway, but let's not split hairs, facial or otherwise.
Something amazing - an article in The Guardian about Ayan Hirsi Ali and the religious hatred legislation that isn't total twaddle, and is actually rather good. Here it is.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is much more than just a voice for the voiceless oppressed. In person, she is a thoughtful, calm, clear, almost pedantic spokeswoman for the fundamental liberal values of the Enlightenment: individual rights, free speech, equality before the law. At dinner afterwards, she told me how these liberal individualist ideals were first quickened in her by reading English literature as a schoolgirl in Kenya, where her family had fled from Somalia. She loved the work of Charles Dickens and George Orwell. (As a young Muslim girl, she briefly thought the horrible behaviour of the pigs in Orwell's Animal Farm helped explain why Muslims don't eat pork.) Then, studying political science in the Netherlands, she discovered the classics of western liberalism. Two authors she particularly admires are John Stuart Mill and Karl Popper.
at December 1, 2005 8:38 AM
The so called leaders of Britains Police are insipid & dangerous.
They are Political, pure & simple.
They have no interest in Justice, or Law & Order.
They are the hammer the Government uses to bang home the penalty for rejecting Multiculturalism in the UK.
Unfortunately for them, many Police Officers who deal with the real problems we are facing think exactly like we do here - in fact I know 2 personally who now view this site regularly.
Taking away the threat of Mosque closure gives the Muslim Community yet another green light to carry on regardless.
No sanction will be bought against any UK Islamic institution for formenting or supporting terrorism - in fact if it is found that they do, they now probably automatically qualify for extra funding from Central Government & the Lottery to help them "re-evaluate their position".
Weak. Weak. Weak. Super weak.
Posted by: albion at December 1, 2005 8:43 AM
Interested
Waterdragon posted yesterday that God is not a micromanager. I generally hold to this notion; occasionally however, The Black Lady upstairs sends civilization a precious gift. The latest is Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an intelligent and articulate black Muslim woman who by virtue of those characteristics and her personal suffering at the hands of the Islamofascists, stands above any attempted reproach by the rabble identified in my post. May she continue to cast light on the shadows and lead Europe out of the wilderness of ignorance.
at December 1, 2005 9:13 AM
Yesterday I posted that Bat Ye'or and Oriana Fallaci stood as twin towers, and rather theatrically wailed who will take their palce from the next generation. Sensibly various worthy candidates were put forward by later posters.
And how could I have omitted Ayann Hirsi Ali and Patrick Sookhdeo?
at December 1, 2005 9:20 AM
And how can I have failed to notice such appalling spelling?
at December 1, 2005 9:21 AM
Albion, Granny, et al:
Stark raving mad is what this is! Imagine if these folks were in charge during WW II. You'd have Nazis operating freely on British soil!
I suspect that, as in Canada, chiefs of police and senior policing officials are not chosen for the job by the rank-and-file, but rather recommended to their positions by senior beaurocrats and appointed by politicians. N'est pas?
Posted by: waterdragon52 at December 1, 2005 9:23 AM
Granny W - thanks for recommending Patrick Sookhdeo's 'Islam in Britain'. Everyone who cares about the Islamisation of society, not just Britain, should read this book. Clearly and dispassionately written, balanced and factual, it is nevertheless very alarming.
Personally I prefer it to Fallaci's rantings. Emotion is not enough.
Posted by: Interested at December 1, 2005 9:35 AM
I think that the British cops are correct in their assessment that a radical mosque is a valuable intelligence gathering asset and should not be closed.
There is no such thing as a 'peaceful' or 'moderate' muslim.
In the same way as there was never a 'peaceful' or 'moderate nazi'.
Islam is not a religion but a political grassroot movement, it is an anarchy with a religious touch and a crazy rulebook, and, what is more, it works along the same lines as Hitler's brand of 'herdmanagement'.
The world had a lot 'moderate nazis', last century. The ordinary, little people, who actually were quite friendly and decent, and who had very little conscious idea of what happened to their 'missing' neighbours and didn't think much further either, because thinking too much was painful and thinking aloud was deadly. The folks who lived in fear of the Gestapo knocking on their door[1], and, the people who never really understood much about what was going on, other than that the uniforms were shiny, the marches impressive and that some sort of paradise was promised at the end of the line.
Does this sound familiar?
As you look deeper into the social mechanisms that keep such cults afloat you will begin to notice those patterns -- and the major difference between those cults and democracy is that cults cement the status quo by not allowing new ideas, and democracies try everything more than once, and let the survival of the fittest sort it out.
Defending a democracy against faschism (and especially, faschism in drag!) is not easy since it appears to bust a few principles we cherish, free speech, liberty and so on. However, the German constitution has a nice clause here, and that is that every political party(and every public servant) has adhere to the 'Grundgesetz'(the basic law) and support it. However it is only applicable for policial parties and not to religious groups afaik, but it busts any faschistic party out of the game easily.
Something along those lines is our key in defeating this menace in a democratic and calm way[2].
As for the cops not wanting to close their honeypot, I think they are right, and to me, this is admission through the backdoor that this 'moderate muslim' thing is not working and that we cannot trust any of them at all, nor can we rely upon any muslim to help us here[3].
And, btw, should we, the cream of western civilisation, the one generation that has wealth, education and privelidge beyond the wildest dreams of anyone who lived before, should we not be able to handle this problem in a way that demonstrates beyond doubt that our system of democracy is the right way of doing business in this world?
;)
Imli, who just would like to work at fixing the problem, instead of fearing it.
[1] Many people wre denounced by their neighbours for no reason other than that they didn't see eye to eye. It was just like the witchhunts of the dark ages in this respect.
[2] Some people here get a bit hysterical about this, and, it just isn't helpful because it makes us look stupid. Consider the situation where you are faced with a rabid dog. Do you 1) scream in frustration at the universe? 2) quietly grab a catching pole and snare the beast? Moreover, say there was a cure for rabies. Would it not make more sense to administer that than to waste the unfortunate creature?
[3] And if they did inform the police about the Islamists, they wouldbe in danger themselves, which if you think about it is also unfair. Remember, they cannot criticise or even leave the cult without risking death. Think 'mafia' and 'omerta'. Islam is a nasty trap.
at December 1, 2005 9:44 AM
I'm glad my opinion was of use. If anyone else wants a copy, it comes highly recommended, click here http://www.barnabasfund.org/islaminbritain.htm Web price a snip @ £5.99 + 95p P&P.
Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at December 1, 2005 9:53 AM
I suppose there's really not a whole lot left to say about a police force that denies guns to its members.
Posted by: spect8or at December 1, 2005 12:34 PM
Assistant Chief Constable Rob Beckley of the Association of Chief Police Officers said it was a "blunt tool".
Blunt tool? They must have been referring to their dulled, practically non exsistent sense of self preservation..
"British police are afraid ...?"
I would be too, the gunless wonders..
Posted by: Kemaste at December 1, 2005 12:39 PM
The FBI is one of the most Dhimmified institutions in the USA. Have you ever seen Director Muller at a press conference or testifying to Congress? Among other liabilities, he is one of the few public servants in the country less articulate than the President himself.He sends agents to CAIR for 'cultural sensitivity training' (the phrase itself makes me want puke). I understand the tactical benefits of keeping open the lines of communication to a community where potential terrorists exist in abundance. But are such efforts producing the desired reciprocity?
Has CAIR helped break up a single terrorist cell in the USA?
Posted by: Cornelius
In response to your last question, the answer as you know is: No.
But it looks like maybe you are ready to read
Paul Sperry's Infiltration: How Muslim Spies and subversives have infiltrated Washington The link is to Sperry and excerpts from his book.
But you will be dismayed, if reading it, for it implicates and documents the RNC and your man GWB.
Posted by: Nariz at December 1, 2005 4:39 PM
they should keep that mosque open..after of coures its bugged..and keep tabs on who's coming and going...good way to get information on the islamofacists!
Posted by: Lulu at December 1, 2005 8:24 PM
The mosque's closure should be "seen as a LONG OVERDUE attack on Islam,"
Posted by: rocky at December 2, 2005 4:48 AM
Interested -- perhaps my view is so jaundiced that I am unable to conceive of ANYTHING good coming from Mr. Garton's pen, or the Guardian's sewer, er stable of opinion writers... My take on his craftily written article was not the same as yours. I couldn't help but notice the way he soft soaped the whole Muslim aspect of Hirsi Ali's fight -- how he only tangentially and somewhat apologetically introduced the issue of Islam. His oblique reference in passing the political opportunism of "some self-appointed spokespersons of the Muslim community in Britain" was just one example among many...
I thought there was also a subtext to his message, one which nicely whitewashes Islam's central role in Hirsi Ali's situation: He never once mentions Ms. Ali's apostasy! Nada. In fact, an unfamiliar reader may infer that she is a practicing Muslim, or, even more of a distortion, a Muslim women's rights activist! What an utter distortion of the truth!
He also took great pains to re-state the moral equivalency that always seeps into the post-modern fantasist's discussions about Islam. He tells us, yet once again, that extremism and intolerance isn't just limited to Islam -- no of course it isn't! He makes a special point, halfway through his thoughts, to reassure his there-is-no-objective-truth audience -- quoth the bogeyman: "if you say that, we will kill you. And not just in the case of Islam...."
(Oh yes -- never forget to qualify the statement! I had forgotten that other "intolerant" organizations such as the IRA and Timothy McVeigh's neoNazis in America have also taken out a death fatwa on Ms. Ali... Er, wait...)
He then proceeds: "Remember that violent protests and death threats from extremists in Britain's Sikh community forced the playwright Gurpreet Kaur Bhatti into hiding, and her play Behzti off the stage in Birmingham."
BINGO!
I'm so glad for his reminder -- I was just about to imagine that Islam had something to do with Ms. Ali's plight... Now that he makes the parallel, why that's EXACTLY the same kind of thing as blowing up 50 Londoners in the subway -- It's EXACTLY like 9/11, Madrid, and the countless other similar "dramatic" atrocities, only coincidentally wrought by pious Muslims. Indeed, this obscure threat by the Sikh community in Britain against an equally obscure Sikh playwright... yep -- it's definitely not just Islam...! Phew...! No need to worry...!
Thanks! Mr. Ash, for pointing out that the Muslims don't have the market cornered on heinous atrocities! Now can you clarify why you left the impression in your article that Hirsi Ali is still a practicing Muslim? Can you explain why you overlooked mentioning that her apostacy is first and foremost the reason she is under threat of death? Can you explain again why we shouldn't be worrying about the number of Muslims who concur with this "fatwa" since they're not alone in promulgating intolerance and hatred?
More fantasist filth spewing out of the sewer of moral relativism...
Posted by: jsla at December 2, 2005 3:18 PM
(P.S. I didn't once mention the leftism or Marxism of the Guardian or its writers to make my point -- not once...)
Posted by: jsla at December 2, 2005 3:22 PM
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