This should surely be considered evidence of organized jihadist activity, i.e. groups within the ummah resorting to organized violence against Infidels motivated by Islamic principles to 'stive hard against Infidels' and 'fight in the way of Allah', in accordance with strictures in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

This establishes a loose analogy between the recent riots in both Paris and other cities in France, as well as in Birmingham, England.

Posted by: JTF at December 14, 2005 5:10 PM

Question to our Aussie friends here:

Is there any site available relating economic stats for Australia? For Example, the media is quite willing to misrepresent what happened in France as the result of racism and poverty... what is your situation?

Posted by: Gary at December 14, 2005 5:14 PM

Robert,

Their logic makes perfect sense. The Arab Christian is the Arab Muslim's perfect dhimmi. Considering the way the nationalist Arab Christian has supported his own destruction for the greater good of the ummah in Palestine, I can perfectly understand how Muslims in Australia would assume he'd support them in race/religion riots there. I'd be more surprised if the Arab-Australian Christians didn't back up the Muslims. After all, how many Arab Christians value religion over nationality?

Posted by: scissor at December 14, 2005 5:42 PM

"... the race-hate war, which began as a battle against young white males over use of suburban beaches."
-- The Australian

It's heartening to see that Oz newspapers are as fake as those in the USA and England.

The so-called "race-hate war" was a violent reaction to years of Moslem threats against Aussie white women, Moslem rapes of Aussie white women, and finally the Moslem attacks on lifeguards.

And the fight wasn't "over the use of suburban beaches," it was about avenging incessant criminal Moslem behavior by giving the Moslems a good old fashioned beating. The authorities refused to do deal with these feral animals, so the street folk did.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 14, 2005 5:48 PM

Please do not forget that the Baath Party was started by Syrian-Lebanese Christian-apostates who converted to Islam and urged all Christians living in the Middle East to convert because “Islam is Arabism.” Many of the self-professed leaders of the Maranoite Diaspora have huge Dhimmi tendencies.

In the aftermath of 911, Coptic, Chaldian, and Assyrian community leaders along with many representatives of the aboriginal Christian communities of the Middle East joined in a declaration which both condemned the attacks and affirmed that they are neither Arab nor Muslim, and their wish that they would not be associated with either. The Maronites did not lend their voice in any strength to such denunciations of the MSM pronouncement that the majority of Arabs in America are Christians. In fact, I think most Maronites believe that they are Arabs and that the Phoenicians and the Canaanites were proto-Arabs.

Posted by: have_mercy at December 14, 2005 5:50 PM

Gary:
What stats are you after? Like most countries, certain sections of the community seem to be more likely to be living in poverty than others. Free education, free healthcare, unemployment benefits, community programs and more are all available for those in need.

Posted by: AngryMuppet at December 14, 2005 5:53 PM

I guess I just haven't caught on to the beguiling logic of the mainstream media.

Like terrorists, they mostly attack soft targets. They rarely mess with Muslims because they might get hurt. They preen and posture after criticizing those who don't fight back.

"We spoke truth to power!" Yawn.

Posted by: Beagle at December 14, 2005 5:55 PM

Four churches? Do they have any idea how that looks? It's pointing the finger AWAY from the white YOBs and Christians and directly at the true source of the aggression. Thank G*d for the Islamic 'blind spot'. They don't know how people behave in real life toward each other and so there's no cognitive dissonance when they torch a church. To them that's a logical thing to burn, it's part of the hated infidel lifestyle, but also they don't find anything wrong with burning down a house or building of someone they don't like. For Australians or anyone else, really, that is an unthinkable thing to do. You wouldn't burn down the home of your worst enemy, unless you were very sick. But they don't understand that little detail and though we know what YOBs are like, and they may be a pain when they're on the beach, but they fight you first before they'd let you torch their mom's church, or one their auntie goes to or whatever. They just would not do that. So the fickle finger of fact, has, in fact, like the broken clock which is right twice a day regardless, found a fact that's undeniable. It can only be Muslims who burned these churches. It's not like that's something that happens in Australia every day...or even every year! They just 'put paid' to the notion that this is 'white racism'. It may be 'racism' but it's more like 'Middle Eastern racism' to me against the indigenous Australian population.

Posted by: foreign devil at December 14, 2005 6:07 PM

AngryM (I almost wrote 'Aunti M', gah)~ I have to guess it is the poverty stats. Knowing what the EU is doing to its workforce (France in particular), and then seeing this in Australia... Which coutry has always impressed me as being in pretty good shape, relatively speaking.

Posted by: Gary at December 14, 2005 6:15 PM

FOUR churches in Sydney's southwest have been attacked in 24 hours as the city's riots spread from race to religion.

Idiots. It has always been about religion, if we are willing to stretch our imagination enough to consider Islam a "religion". What race is Islam again? Of all the world's religious communities, Muslims are unique in their singular inability to adopt or adapt to Western values when they immigrate. Multiple generations of Muslims have failed to peacefully integrate into the welcoming societies of the UK, France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany, Italy, USA, Australia, Spain, Italy, etc., etc. These are facts, not opinion. They come from many countries and represent several "races" so nationality or "race" is not the issue. The common denominator is Islam. It's repeat behaviour. Watch my lips: it's repeat behaviour. It's always the same story, has been for more than a thousand years. It's repeat behaviour.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at December 14, 2005 6:19 PM

To paraphrase Heinrich Heinlein: Where they burn cars and churches, they soon burn people.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at December 14, 2005 6:22 PM

It still begets me as to why they would migrate to a different country and not follow the rule's and regulation's of said country...Islam is no religion of peace or acceptance and hence should not be given a second thought.

Send 'em back to where they came from.

Posted by: chuck at December 14, 2005 6:23 PM

I see the Muslims in Australia, or anywhere else for that matter aren't man enough to face adversity straight up. They can rape Western women, and pick on buildings. Why are they targeting Churches? Why haven't they tried to attack the 5000 Aussies that were defending (albeit unconventionally) their homeland from those who would replace bikinis with those ugly ass, drab, Jerry Springer reject Buirkhas? Cuz they'd be beaten within an inch of their pitiful existence, that's why.

Wow, they beat up some Churches. Of course,they don't hit back. Muslims are such punks. Bwahahhahahahaha! Buncha gutless, senseless sissy boys.

Posted by: Asylum inmate at December 14, 2005 6:43 PM

Well muslims have won, since the police have won special powers to close down pubs, and shops which sell liquor.

Apparently this was all caused by alcohol. If only Australians didn't drink so much alcohol then the protest on sunday wouldn't have happened.

It's got nothing to do with the fact that muslims have been sexually harassing Australian women, or calling them sluts for wearing bikinis.

Posted by: Voltaire at December 14, 2005 6:53 PM

Gary:
Sorry, but I do not have time to find the specific stats for you but these would be a good place to start...

Aust. Institute of Family Studies
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/info/trends.html#employment
Working but Poor
http://www.sprc.unsw.edu.au/dp/Dp91.pdf
Immigration Statistics
http://www.dimia.gov.au/statistics/stat_info/index.htm

Hope that is of some assistance.

Voltaire:
They have also been given the power to shut down an area and confiscate cars in an attempt to prevent the 'middle-eastern gangs' and their rampages. Of course, they needed to be seen to be taking action against the Sunday protestors or we would never hear the end of the anti-muslim discrimination, blah blah...

Posted by: AngryMuppet at December 14, 2005 7:00 PM

Gary look up the community profile of different suburbs in Sydney.

They list employment and occupation and income listings.

You can try "Sutherland shire community profile" which is where the suburb of Cronulla is.

There are also other suburbs you can look up if you want. Try googling, the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

Posted by: Voltaire at December 14, 2005 7:08 PM

Thanks, both of you!

Posted by: Gary at December 14, 2005 7:16 PM

Posted by: Voltaire
It's got nothing to do with the fact that muslims have been sexually harassing Australian women, or calling them sluts for wearing bikinis.

Thats, putting rather lightly dont you think ?
Gang Raping/and at least in one case sodomizing young girls as young as twelve,by up to sixteen scumbags is not sexually harassing

It is religion
Qur’an 8:29 “O you who believe! If you obey and fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion to judge between right and wrong, or a way to overlook your evil thoughts and deeds.”

Posted by: Hulegu Khan

To paraphrase Heinrich Heinlein: Where they burn cars and churches, they soon burn people.
http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15466&highlight=#15466

Posted by: infidel-k9 at December 14, 2005 9:48 PM

This link provides relevant background.
http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

Posted by: dms at December 14, 2005 9:52 PM

Guide to MSM logic, Oz-style.

gang of ME males beat up 2 lifesavers : wayward youths behaving badly
Aussies retaliating : RACISM!
ME males 3-night rampage : retaliation
churches used by Chinese and Tongans attacked/burnt down : riots spread from race to religion

Also from same edition of the Australian:

"And among the thousands of people of Middle Eastern descent, who gathered outside the Lakemba Mosque following rumours it was under threat, were both Christian and Muslim Lebanese - groups that have often been at odds with one another.

But the apparent race riots of Sydney, which have helped unite the Lebanese community against a shared threat, could also raise the heat on their own simmering identity tensions."

Yeah, right.Christian and Muslim Lebanese uniting against a shared threat..outside a mosque? Compare to this post (from a smh blog):

"I feel compelled to ask muslims here generally where were your concerns and charity when so many christians and non-muslims were being slaughtered and massacred throughout the middle east particularly in Lebanon (the most defiant christians in the middle east)...you sat around watched and let it happen and frankly, if your religion was to get it's way there would not be not one non-muslim person left alive in that country today, it would be another islamic state. Unfortunately most of us had to flee our beloved homeland in search of peace in another land and to Australia and Australians we love you very much and thank you wholeheartedly for taking us in when our very own (..but of different religious beliefs)...wanted to execute us. What saddens me most is those oxymorons who are turning the whole world into the tumultous middle east and for what?? So you can have 7 virgins waiting for you in heaven!!!! IF you idiots had ANY idea about spirituality (which islam CLEARLY lacks)...you would understand it does NOT become about physcial sensations anymore we evolve beyond that, practice spirituality not religious causes of hate & murder.

To the hardliners & extremist, those of you that where born here, what is YOUR problem?? You have dual citizenship even if you were born here go back to the middle east or the hell your religion has created and leave us alone to those of us that have respect for the law our fellow being and humanity and let us live in peace!!

To the muslims who do not condone this sort of behaviour "thank you" but it has really come a little too late, your religion has been preaching hate for too long,damage is done!!!!!

And to the stupid lefties in Newtown handing out pamphlets "defending muslim rights" WHAT THE HELL ABOUT OUR RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How about you walk along the streets of Iran, Egypt or Jordan as you are, with your tattoos, nose piercings, dreaded hair, ripped clothes and stoned giving out those pamphlets, I guarantee girl you'll be dead in minutes, your happy to defend their rights BUT YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS, IDIOT!! DON'T GET INVOLVED IN MIDDLE EASTERN POLITICS UNLESS YOU HAVE LIVED THERE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT REALLY GOES ON!!! And for the record THERE ARE NO WOMEN'S RIGHTS EITHER!! And for the record when you defend muslim rights you take away women's rights, just ask any of those women who regrettably converted to islam and now are paying the price!!!!"

Posted by: Jade at November 9, 2005 11:29 AM

Wonder if that's our own dragoness? If so, hope she doesn't mind me re-posting here.

And I wonder how the followers of Mohammad would react...if for eg, the Lakemba mosque burned down?

Posted by: islamophobic pride at December 14, 2005 10:31 PM

Islam thrive on striking fear into the heart of the infidel.

Islam's instruments know that they have full impunity because the authorities (faithless or agnostic) will not move a finger for fear of being branded as intolerant.

Meanwhile those at the receiving end, the church going Christians,are experiencing what Islam wants them to feel.

Posted by: rocky at December 14, 2005 10:43 PM

Just reading some more international and local news. It is really beginning to piss me off that most are still referring to the incidents at Cronulla as been some sort of drunken, white rascist, hick event. Anyone who knows Australia is well aware that despite some trouble makers within the crowd the event was simply a reaction to culturally provocative actions of an identifiable element within the community.

Much of the media and most politicians are drawing conclusions based on correlations rather than causation. Just because the group singled out for retribution happened to be 'non-white' does not in itself make the actions racist. All this talk about some sort of racist underbelly is just a joke. Indians, africans, asians, greeks, italians etc all happily co-exist in Australia.

Why is it time and time again that muslims of any "race" or ethnic background are the source of major social rifts?! For all those ignoramuses out there ISLAM is the issue, how stupid do you have to be?? Look at the premier of Australia's second most populous state, Steve Bracks as just one example. This guy has a Lebanese background but has happily adopted Australian/ liberal values and consequently has the broad acceptance of the community.

The media has a LOT to answer for. It seems so much easier to sell newspapers and broadcasts by whipping up this racist diatribe than dealing with the real more complex underlying causes of these problems. If we continue to use convenient excuses for what is a very serious matter, effectively sweeping the issues under the carpet, we will all face a potential Beirut in our own backyard. For the uninformed, that was a war or cultures and religion, not one of race. Despite the media's best efforts to hide the truth the general populace are increasingly aware of what is really going on. Just about every bad news story these days has a connection to Islam, people are beginning to understand that this is more than just coincidence.

Posted by: secularaussie at December 14, 2005 10:46 PM

Scissor,

Please don't blame the victim. The reason that the Muslims hate the Arab Christians even more than others is because after nearly 1400 years of occupation and enforced dhimmitude, these Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, and Egyptians have held on to their Christian Faith. The Muslims want to shame the Lebanese-Australian Christians because they REFUSE to buy into the Islamic ideological line.

It is Muslims who insist that to be Arab is to be Muslim and the very existence of Arabic speaking Catholics and Orthodox puts the lie to their whole Jihadist propoganda machine. If these Arabic Christians did not value religion over nationality, they would have become Muslims centuries ago. Instead they have kept the Christian faith in the face of slavery, rape, and martyrdom. I wonder how many secularized Westerners will be able to do the same?

I assure you, the Lebanese Christians stand with the Australian youth against the invading Muslim hordes.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 14, 2005 10:55 PM

You got to move, you got to move,
you got to move child, you got to move
But when the Lord gets ready, you got to move

You may be high, you may be low
You may be rich, child, you may be poor
But when the Lord gets ready, you got to move

You see that woman, that walk the street
You see the policeman, out on his beat
But when the Lord gets ready, they got to move

You got to move, you got to move,
you got to move child, you got to move
But when the Lord gets ready, you got to move

Posted by: otterfisher at December 14, 2005 11:40 PM

We can all be sure of one thing about these riots, like all the rest, the end result will be more gains for the muslims. The more aggressive they become, the more pampering they
receive, by the very same politicians and media who pander to almost all of their demands, while covering up their overt Islamic agenda. Churches burning, young girls being gang raped, I’ve read the media reports of many of these cases,
many here on JW/DW. The media call the causes for this strife “rumour”, they don’t report the truth, far better to label people “Islamaphobic”, than piss of their Saudi {Wahabi} shareholders, are you listening Rupert Murdoch you poor excuse for an Australian, your Country needs an honest assessment about Islam in Australia, now more than ever and you’re hiding under your desk for fear of another
ticking off from your Saudi masters. Australians have bore so much of the brunt of this war since 9/11, it’s now reaching in to their towns and cities.

Posted by: sul3j at December 14, 2005 11:41 PM

61 Highway
soundclip

by Mississippi Fred McDowell
recording of February 13 1964, at his house near Como, Mississippi
from You Gotta Move (Arhoolie 304), copyright notice

Lord, that 61 Highway is the longest road I know
Lord, that 61 Highway may be the longest road I know
She run from New York City, down the Gulf of Mexico

Lord, it's some poor sand down, Greyhound buses don't run
Lord, it's some poor sand down, Greyhound buses don't run
Just go to work with me baby, look down Highway 61

I said please, please see somebody for me
I said please, please see somebody for me
If you see my baby, tell her she's alright with me

I'm gonna buy me a pony can, pay for fox-trot and run1
I'm gonna buy me a pony can, pay for fox-trot and run
Lord, when you see me comin', pretty mama, I'll be on Highway 61

I started school one Monday mornin', Lord, I throwed my books away
I started school one Monday mornin', baby, I throwed my books away
I wrote a note to my teacher, Lord, I'm gonna try 61 today

Lord, if I have to die, baby, fo' you think my time have come
Lord, if I have to die, baby now, fo' you think my time have come
I want you to bury my body, out on Highway 61

Lord, it's amazin', baby, Lord, don't want you to have no fun
It's amazin', baby, don't want you to have no fun
Just come down to my little cabin, out on Highway 61

Posted by: otterfisher at December 15, 2005 12:03 AM

Why do you all become upset with the same media and politicians who combined to pillory Pauline Hansen in an outrageous display of cooperation between all political parties, the trade unions, the multicultural society and all ethnic groups?

They gaoled her on a "beat up" charge and then to show their "compassion" released her upon condition she stay out of politics and not ask for an investigation into the charges.

Her only sins were NOT having a university education and being abrave woman who was not afraid to stand up for true justice and true equality without the nepotitic, superethnic crap we see every day in the form of minority advantages. She had more b*lls than both houses of parliament.

That should have given you a clue about the response to the Muslim scum induced rioting.

Why are thses morons so blind?
Why is the truth so feared?
What advantage to they gain by this wholesale lying?

Most Australians whether educated or not would not put bother to put a politician out if he was on fire. we seem to have only contempt for our politicians and the media and yet we vote them back in year after year. Whyso? Because there is NO real choice. The major parties will not allow the birth of a really true third major party as it will destablise politics here so it will be stopped by any means available. They will NEVER admit to a mistake about the lunacy of allowing nonassimilatables into this country and hence have to blame it upon the poor aussie yob as usual, who will be the first to die for this country if it does get out of hand, as it will. It is only a matter of time.

Posted by: Zathras at December 15, 2005 12:09 AM

Please is there any body who can give me links to any images of the churches,as I would like to add them into the P.I.G.thread I am doing on another thread,Just at the moment I can not find any,Seems like the MSM is hiding them from us
Many thanx in advance
Shiva

Posted by: shiva at December 15, 2005 12:43 AM

Zathros, you say "her only sins were NOT having a university education and being a brave woman who was not afraid to stand up for true justice and true equality". As you suggest, she was tough, in fact , Geoffrey Blainey, who pre-empted Pauline's immigration concerns some 20 years ago, and was promptly pilloried by his peers as a (take a deep breath)"racist".

Posted by: islamophobic pride at December 15, 2005 12:46 AM

last post got mangled, meant to say that Blainey was an (emiritus) professor of history at some melbourne university

Posted by: islamophobic pride at December 15, 2005 12:50 AM

This round in Sydney has been fought and is already lost.

The "Bra Boys" who were at the heart of the rally, have accepted Dhimmi status to their new Muslim masters. I hope they are good at getting their trousers down and bending over....

The international media/ home media has steered away from the fact that the churches have been burnt down/ shot at/ were 'non white' churches. They have also steered clear of the fact that the 5000 crowd was not all 100% 'white'. In fact their were (from what I here and have seen) infidel Asians in the crowd also. But alas - not reported on.

At least there is one "good thing" for me in this, from a selfish point of view that is. More infidel Sydney-ites will continue to sell their houses and move up to QLD, inflating my property prices. But I would much rather have a country than wealth. I am not like my politicians!

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at December 15, 2005 12:57 AM

Hugh, did Omar of bagdad destoy the library of alexandria or not?..if you don't respond i will assume that the story is false.

Posted by: otterfisher at December 15, 2005 1:31 AM

So, no muzzies up North, 3x ?

Of course MSM don't want to report "the fact that the churches have been burnt down/shot at were 'non white' churches" ; that would imply moslems are racists! Youre not some kind of islamophobe, I trust?

Posted by: islamophobic pride at December 15, 2005 1:33 AM

Hugh,,who burned the contents of the Alexandria library?? don't make me follow you around like a hound dog..because i will..

Posted by: otterfisher at December 15, 2005 1:47 AM

Otterfisher:

"Hugh,,who burned the contents of the Alexandria library?? don't make me follow you around like a hound dog..because i will.."

From The Straight Dope:

"There's considerable disagreement among historians on how and when the great library was destroyed. But before we discuss its end, let's discuss its beginnings.

Libraries date back to earliest historic times. Archaeologists have found libraries--that is, storage places for clay tablets carved in cuneiform--in Mesopotamia, dating from around 2000 BC. As clay tablets and cuneiform gave way to scrolls and an alphabet, Greek authors and scholars around the 5th century BC began to develop history and philosophy, and the evidence strongly suggests they had access to libraries. Aristotle (384-321 BC), the teacher of Alexander the Great (356-323 BC), had a personal library of around 400 scrolls, one of the largest in ancient times. When Alexander marched east to India, he designated administrators in the libraries and archives of the countries he conquered to study local laws and records to determine the best means of governing each region.

The great library at Alexandria in Egypt was founded by the Ptolemy dynasty around 290 BC, in a palace district known as the Brucheion. Alexandria was the largest city in the western world at the time, the home of the papyrus industry and the center of the book trade. The library was called a "museum," that is, a "house of the muses"--what we would call a school of arts and sciences. A smaller "daughter library" was built in the same district about a century later at the temple of Serapis.

Neither would have looked like a modern library. To begin with, there weren't bound books in those days, but rather papyrus scrolls. Papyrus was made from reeds from the banks of the Nile. Hammer them flat so that the juice bound the fibers, then dry them out, and you had sheets on which to write. Sew several sheets together, wrap them around a center pole, and tie on an identifying tag (author and title of work, perhaps), and you had a scroll. A typical scroll would be about one-tenth the length of an average book.

We don't know the actual size or content of the library at Alexandria. Some estimate 600,000 scrolls, although that's probably an overstatement. The daughter library is thought to have contained about 40,000 scrolls.

Scrolls, unlike books, don't stand upright on the shelf, but lie in a heap. To get one, you have to shuffle around the others. It's unlikely there was a precise filing system.

The library consisted of a group of buildings, including lecture halls, study rooms, dining rooms, gardens, and an astronomical observatory. The buildings were connected by a series of covered walkways, with statues, plantings, and pools, so that scholars could study in the shade.

The library tried to get copies of all known books, sending agents far and wide to acquire texts. Scrolls were bought, copied and stolen. Boats visiting Alexandria were required to lend any books on board to the library; some were returned.

The Alexandrian library flourished for several hundred years, and was the center of cultural development in the west. Scholars from every field of knowledge and every corner of the Hellenistic world came to learn, study and teach at Alexandria. Paid staff included grammarians, historians, astronomers, geographers, mathematicians, physicians, and poets. They studied and revised the works of earlier writers, beginning with Homer--the division of Homer's works into separate books is thought to be a product of the library. Scholarship consisted mostly of compiling, editing, criticizing and commenting on older texts, rather than composing new ones.

The list of famous scholars who studied at Alexandria in antiquity is long. Euclid wrote his Elements there. Archimedes was a student at the library. Legend says the pharaoh Ptolemy II convened seventy Jewish scholars to translate the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) from Hebrew into Greek, producing a work called the Septuagint. The astronomer Eratosthanes, working at the library, taught that the earth was a sphere and computed its circumference (he was off a bit).

Now to your question: How did it come to an end? We don't know exactly--in fact, we know very little about the library's history. That hasn't prevented historians over the centuries from proposing various scenarios. The three main suspects are Julius Caesar, Bishop Theophilus, and Caliph Omar. Contrary to myth, there wasn't one great fire that destroyed the library, but instead several documented fires over a span of centuries. It seems likely, then, that the destruction of the library was gradual. The problem is that we have few contemporary accounts, and later writers often have some axe to grind.

The first significant fire was around 89-88 BC. Egypt was torn by war and civil strife under Ptolemy VIII, and much of Alexandria was burned. Athenaeus visited the library and wrote about the fire much later (around 200 AD, so it obviously wasn't completely destroyed), reporting that the scholars at the museum had been scattered, and that "great numbers of grammarians, philosophers, geographers, and physicians [roam] the entire world, forced to earn their living by teaching." Though never restored to its former greatness, the library was rebuilt and survived for many more years.

The next fire was in 47 BC, when Julius Caesar and the Roman armies conquered Egypt. Caesar burned the harbor as part of this campaign. Seneca (3 BC-65 AD) says that 40,000 books were incinerated in this fire; others say less. We do know that many volumes were looted by Caesar's army and shipped to Rome.

Some people therefore blame Caesar for the destruction of the library. However, while the library may have been damaged during this episode, it probably wasn't destroyed. Forty thousand books would only have been a small fraction of the library's collection. A fire in the harbor wouldn't have reached the library proper, although scrolls stored in warehouses might have been burned. The Greek geographer Strabo (64 BC-24 AD), writing during the reign of Augustus, seems to have had some acquaintance with a functioning Alexandrian library. Suetonius, writing around 125 AD, says that the Emperor Domitian (reigning from 81 to 96 AD) used Alexandrian scholars to replace texts from Augustus' library at Palatine after a fire. This is strong evidence that the Alexandria library continued to exist well after Caesar burned the harbor.

The next fire came 300 years later, in 273 AD, when the Roman Emperor Aurelian invaded Egypt as part of his war with Zenobia of Palmyra. Much of Alexandria was burned, including the Brucheion district. Whether this fire destroyed the entire library or whether some portion was rebuilt is not known.

As Christians gained dominance in the region, they felt uncomfortable with pagan temples full of pagan documents. In 391 AD, Theophilus, the patriarch of Alexandria, urged a mob to destroy the temple at Serapis, presumably at the same time destroying whatever books were left in the daughter library. This was hailed as a great victory of the Christians over the pagans.

The final fire was in 645 AD, when the Moslem caliph Omar conquered Egypt. The story is that Omar was asked what to do about the books in the library, and gave the reply: "If the books agree with the Koran, they are not necessary. If they disagree, they are not desired. Therefore, destroy them." According to tradition, the scrolls were used as fuel to provide hot water for the soldiers' baths for six months.

Alas, this story is almost certainly apocryphal, invented in the 12th century. If Omar burned a library, it was probably a Christian library in a church built on the site of the daughter library.

Whom do we blame for the destruction of the library? We like Matthew Battles' summary. He notes that scrolls (like books) erode and fall apart over time, and we're dealing with five or six centuries. If an old scroll were crumbling, a scribe would have to make a new copy by hand. Battles writes:

Before the flames, before theft and censorship, the fate of books is bound up in the constant shuffling and transformation. Though Alexandria's libraries were universal in scope, their librarians faced hard choices. Manuscript scrolls were costly and time-consuming to produce, and the scribes' precious labor could not often be lavished on minor texts. Naturally, only the major works were copied in any great quantity. The rest--the secondary, the extra-canonical, and the apocryphal--dropped out of view.

Battles suggests that the destruction of the library wasn't due to a single great fire, but on account of "moldering slowly through the centuries as people grew indifferent and even hostile to their contents."

He concludes: "What happened to the books of Alexandria? Many, many centuries happened to them--too many for their inevitable dispersal and disappearance to be staved off, no matter whose mobs rioted in the streets, no matter which emperors set fires."

Resources:

Library: An Unquiet History, by Matthew Battles, 2003

History of Libraries in the Western World (4th edition), by Michael H. Harris, 1995

--SDSTAFF Dex
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board"

Posted by: Vincent Wong at December 15, 2005 2:03 AM

Zathras,

Can't agree with you on the Pauline Hanson issue. Her problem was that she appealed to the lowest common denominator and played on people's rational and irrational fears. If she was a little more factual and considered in her arguments she could have potentially gone a long way. She was a one issue person who, from my recollection, was concerned with just keeping Australia white. The real issue is one of integration and shared cultural values. Islam is a hostile cancer that seeks to destroy the very society that sustains it.

Her economic policies were just a joke, a 1% tax on every transaction for instance. Fact is, if you want to be a successful politician you at least need to have a good general knowledge of the world around you. I do, however, admire the grit she showed in the face of great hostility. The aboriginal issue is also a vexed one and simply cutting off all government support without a substitute plan would just be ridiculous.

We need politicians who are prepared to call things as they but who are also educated, have a good understanding of the world in general and persuasive in delivering their arguments. In short, they need credibility and they need to be able to sustain it. You have to argue the issues, not just emotions and gut feel.

Posted by: secularaussie at December 15, 2005 2:18 AM

I don't know if the link to Green will show up here. If it does it'll take you to amazon.com where book number five is the story here. It's not about the library at Alexandria itself but is the best book on dictionaries I've encountered. Often the reviews are negative, caliming that the book is boring. One must wonder what the reviewers expect from a book on dictionaries. I love it.

Battle's book above is passable, as in give it a pass unles you have little else to do or can't find better sources for library history. As I recall, one good place to look is in Georges Rioux, The History of Ancient Iraq. Another good source is from the letters by the man who edited the Dead Sea Scrolls, whose name I can't recall at the moment. Will get back to this tomorrow with the name and further proper details.

There is a current effort to rebuild the Library at Alex. The head curator asks that people stop donating further copies of the Lonely Planet Guide to Egypt. Also, to the great relief of those who might otherwise be nervous, all books in the Library are vetted so as not to offend against Islam. Phew!

Chasing the Sun: Dictionary-Makers and the Dictionaries They Made (Hardcover)
by Jonathon Green

Do I have opinions on the situation in Australia? Of course I do. I have opinions on everything. Will return with those as well.

Posted by: sonofwalker at December 15, 2005 2:50 AM

Whatever politicians say, whatever excuses the leftist media uses, the truth is - THOSE WHO AREN'T PREPARED TO FIGHT FOR THEIR LAND AND CULTURE WILL LOSE IT!
GLOBAL JIHAD has reached Australia : either the Muslims go or Australians do... Aussies are a tough bunch so I'll put my money on them & even cross the Tasman to help if need be.

Posted by: Morgane at December 15, 2005 2:50 AM

Secular Aussie I agree with most that you say about Pauline Hansen except that she wanted to keep Australia white. That is just not true, Her aim and it was limited was to NOT allow minorities whether aboriginal or not to have access to special priviliges which the majority coulod NOT access. I carefully went over her 2 famous speeches to see just what she was about and then I looked around myself at the response to her. She did not really care so long as they assimilated and they did not wish special priviliges. However other than this issue there was little relevance in her party's profile. Had she not been martyred as she was she surely would have been killed. Such was the effect she had. The silent majority really did agree with her.

I was using her as an example of what our politicians can do if and when they feel threatened (and they did by her) and I was not making her out to be a St John the baptist of local Islamic jihad.

To explain this more carefully>>>If they can stoop so low to destroy someone they fear, why should we ever believe any word they say?

Similarly the media...end of story.

Posted by: Zathras at December 15, 2005 2:56 AM

Pauline Hanson was an uneducated fool and an embarrassment for Australia.

She was definitely racist, no less.

She may have had her heart in the right place, but she offended all the Asians, especially the Chinese and the Japanese, who were already heavily invested in all kinds of businesses and real estate, which drove prices up and scared many Aussies.
The Asians were a blessing for Australia and they didn't deserve her diatribe one bit.

Sure, there are some problems with the Vietnamese and some Chinese, they may be a different race, but they have the same values.

Pauline Hanson was clueless about Islam and Muslims, she never mentioned them in any of her speeches, not that I'm aware of.
This is about a violent and totalitarian ideology in the name of 'religion', and only few of us grasp the magnitude of the problem...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at December 15, 2005 3:15 AM

Sheik Yer'mami I suggest you check up on her speeches before you quote media propaganda about her. The distortions that you quote are those from the media who had a definite agenda with her and it was done so to discredit her in the eyes of every Asian and it well succeeded.

Essentially what she was on about was as i said above.

Islam was never mentioned as far as i know.
She was made out to be a racist. Show me where she was one!!

She was certainly uneducated but was not illiterate like Muhammad and did not use God to justify her comments.

If she was an embarrassment( and yes i did cringe myself) look at George Bush.

Her biggest fault was that she trusted the advice of those who were more educated than herself but who were also far less honest.

I WAS USING HER AS AN EXAMPLE OF REPRESSION OF OPINION AND OF MEDIA DISTORTION UNDER THE COLLUSION OF POLITICIANS AND THE MEDIA.

Do I really write that badly that no one can understand me?

Posted by: Zathras at December 15, 2005 3:58 AM

I think that this concentration on the library at Alexandria is another example of Islamic
Disinformation (=outright lies).

There were libraries at Ephesus, Pergamun, Antioch, Cyrene, Cesarea, Sirmium, Toledo Constantinople and probably a host of other conquered cities. Certainly NONE of these were as large, as comprehensive or as famous as that at Alexandria. But all contained works now lost forever as like their Christian communities they were totally destroyed.
Similarly monasteries in conquered areas.

The Islamic hordes had neither respect nor value for western writings and it showed by the wholesale use of manuscripts as fire starters.

They still have no respect for anything western yet are very quick to use it against us.
What eternal parasitic hypocrites!!

Posted by: Zathras at December 15, 2005 4:00 AM

C'mon, Lads! Let's not fall apart over Pauline, heck anyone can tell she's a better dancer than a politician! The point is, she brought up an issue (immigration) that was well overdue (consider......er, um....Islam! for eg). University History Professor Geoffrey Blainey had gone to the (virtual) gallows 12 years previously for breaching the same subject.

Posted by: islamophobic pride at December 15, 2005 6:22 AM

Pauline Hanson was an Allah-send for Islam.

See how masterfully Islam plays the race card in Australia.
Without the media beatup on Pauline Hanson and the race issue several years ago they wouldn't have been able to extract anywhere near the mileage they have from the racism card.

She has definitely made it harder for the ordinary Australian to identify the real problem is Islam.

To hell with all the touchy-feely, godless, multiculturalist, heaven-on-earth humanists and their saint , bigger-than-Jesus John Lennon.
I wish I had the Imagine album so I could run over it several times with my car.

To hell with former Australian Prime Ministers Whitlam, 'the-Jihad-we-had-to-have' Keating and the crybaby silly-old-bugger Hawk for getting Australia into this mess...arrogant fools all.

Posted by: Mike_W at December 15, 2005 6:33 AM

now calm down mike, lie down on your stomach, put your arms behind your back, wrists together and listen...

All We are Saying.........
Is Resist the Jihad.......

yeh, your right, islam understands forthrightness..

Posted by: islamophobic pride at December 15, 2005 6:53 AM

All We are Saying.........
Is Resist the Jihad.......

Lol, islamophobic pride, I needed a good laugh, thanks :)

Posted by: Mike_W at December 15, 2005 7:02 AM

Morgane your a ..gasp.. kiwi..and I spose you some kinda..[croak]....islamophobe..

Posted by: islamophobic pride at December 15, 2005 7:12 AM

That is an astute point Mike.

We are in a maze of media/politician creation where they have played the racist card to get rid of PH and now must sing to the tune of blessed multiculturalism. This would be funny if it were not here.

I vaguely remember the Blainey thing but was under extreme academic pressure at the time and do not know much about it sorry to say, as i feel that I should.

Name ONE Australian Prime Minister/Premier worth urinating on if he were on fire!!

No!! Make it ONE Australian politician.

Posted by: Zathras at December 15, 2005 7:59 AM

Australia belongs to all Australians of every race and creed

Posted by: rumi at December 15, 2005 1:21 PM

The Quran forbids attacking churches -notice that protection of synangogues and churches is put even before mosques.

"And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty" Quran 22:40

Posted by: rumi at December 15, 2005 1:25 PM

I meant to write "James M. Robinson" on the Nag Hammadi Library. Miss a meal and I can't recall the sequence of the alphabet. Two meals and I forget how to speak English.

Posted by: sonofwalker at December 15, 2005 2:40 PM

'certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered' rumi

...but where is he remembered in a synagogue or church? They worship GOD in those places. Not allah. However I do suspect he gets mentioned from time to time...

Posted by: Gary at December 15, 2005 2:40 PM

Rumi:

"Australia belongs to all Australians of every race and creed"

You're preaching to the choir on that one, Brother. I think most people who visit this site believe in the law of the land and the need for its impartiality towards all citizens. No single group can arrogate special provileges to itself and flaunt the law, written to preserve the rights of everyone. This is the same throughout the West. Perhaps your comment is meant to affirm your belief that all citizens/residents in Western countries have a responsibility to denounce actions that violate the law of the land, particularly in those cases where other people are summarily deprived of life, limb or property without access to due process.

Now, can the same be said in the case of, say, Pakistan, i.e. that it belongs to Pakistanis of every race and creed? What about Iran? Does Iran belong to Iranians of every race and creed? What about Saudi Arabia?

Posted by: Chatillon at December 15, 2005 3:08 PM

Zathras:

I beg to differ:

I saw PH on TV and I read the transcript of her 'inauguration speech' . She said " The country is being swamped by Asians"- and a lot more of the same. These remarks are racist and offensive.

In an interview on "60-minutes" she was asked whether she was 'xenophobic' and she didn't know what the word meant. Sure, GWB may not know it either, but there is no need to argue over which of those two is a bigger embarrassment.

Her 'advisors', themselves rather ambitious characters with inflated ego's, (this is an understatement) did as much damage to her career as Brutus did to Caesar. She's gone and she didn't win the dancing contest.

A poster above stated quite correctly:

"Pauline Hanson was an Allah-send for Islam.

See how masterfully Islam plays the race card in Australia.
Without the media beatup on Pauline Hanson and the race issue several years ago they wouldn't have been able to extract anywhere near the mileage they have from the racism card.

She has definitely made it harder for the ordinary Australian to identify the real problem is Islam. "

Put your faith in Alexander Downer! What a 'dancer' he is!
Then you might really learn to shake a leg...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at December 15, 2005 3:27 PM

The Mohammedan poster above (rumi) claims that Australia is for all Australians. That is quite right:

Then he claims it for Allah, by stating it is "for every race and creed".

One would have no problem with that if it was not for the fact that Islam is not a creed but a totalitarian ideology that seeks world domination by all means including terror and murder.

Australia belongs to all Australians, not to Mohammedan infil-traitors who want to make it Islamic.

As for the 'protection' of churches and synagogues in Islamic countries we are well aware about the constant attacks with firebombs and machine guns, the killings, the constant, relentless jihad from Pakistan to Africa and from Indonesia (where they chop the heads off little girls who are on their way to school) and of curse the burning and shooting up of 4 Churches in Sydney.

All we need now is a lying, in-your- face Mohammedan, to tell us it isn't so....

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at December 15, 2005 3:46 PM

Rumi- You say Australia belongs to all Australians. Yes ,I agree. But a real Australian never dreams of burning Australian churches,never ever dream of raping its daughters,never ever plot to plant bombs to kill innocent ciitzens,never plan to bring stealthily one's own kind of people into Australia ,to support them ,in their above criminal activities. You say Koran forbids attacking churches-- then how will you explain the thousands of churches demolished and christians killed in Islamic countries? It is just an eye wash ver batum slogan you muslims have-" Koran never allows that"!.Every time when you cannot answer a questian about Islamic barbarity- your ready answer is "Koran never allows that!.
Why churches were burnt in Sangli Hills of Pakisthan-Two Salvation Army Churches and Two catholic churches?(in spite of millions of dollors aid to earth quake victims from christian countries)
Why Several Goptic churches in Egypt were burnt down recently by the Islamic Brotherhood?
Rumi, can you explain why the grewsome killings of Russian school children,London passengers,Sept 11 slaughters,beheadings of school girls? It is in the Koran Rumi-- It is in the KORAN!!You canot deny it. Allah hates those who do not worship him. In Koran ,he oreders muslims like Rumi to kill the non-believers, decaptate their heads,hide and wait for them to slaughter.Rumi, it is not my own words. If you deny it, you are not a true muslim. I will give the exact verses in your Koran. If you say Australia belongs to Australians, learn to be faithful and respect their culture,be considerate to your other co-religionists,and have a thankful heart that Australia accomodated you-unlike your ISALMIC COUNTRIES. Rumi, can I go to Saudi Arabia and demand Saudi citizenship and say Arabia belongs to me ? My head will be rolling in the market place.!

Posted by: rafia at December 15, 2005 6:35 PM

Rafia, well said, bravo!

Posted by: El Cid at December 15, 2005 7:20 PM

Rummi aka loser boy, when you practice what you preach we non-muslims are in trouble, that fact is your cult degrades non-muslims. l do not see any Churchs built in Saudi Arabia, so your point is moot.

Posted by: Lulu at December 15, 2005 8:16 PM

Rami,

It always cracks me up when I see your Allah being referred to as the "all mighty all knowing"! What a cop out. That is why all the infidels refer to you jokers as zombies, you can't think for yourself, you just follow blindly the world of a camel humping paedophile. I can't think of anything else in the world that could be more absurd.

I challenge your all mighty all knowing allah to come and kick my arse, surely that can't be a hard thing to do, I mean, he is supposed to be a pretty bright guy, yeh? I assume he is a guy because no doubts you people wouldn't allow a woman to run the show. I mean, how bad would it look if all the mohammedons got a bonner when being invited through the gates of paradise by a woman?

Or is it that Allah is gender neutral, perhaps even a hermaphrodite? Imagine the shock if Allah was actually swinging it both ways, you just never know, you crazy kids.

C'mon, entertain me, give me some evidence. Strike me down with some terrible flesh eating disease, just anything to prove that this whole Islam thing isn't just a huge practical joke being played by some psychopathic desert dwelling fool.

Posted by: secularaussie at December 15, 2005 8:20 PM

Sorry for the length of this post but I thought this article in The Australian newspaper was one of the best that I have read in some time.....

***********8
By Keith Windschuttle
16dec05

IT was inevitable, given the prevailing mind-set within government and the media, that Sydney's beachside violence this week would be called race riots.

The New South Wales Premier, his ministers and many newspaper headlines all used the term.
However, a more ungainly but nonetheless more accurate description would have been multicultural riots.

For the doctrine of multiculturalism is really to blame.

The tensions that exploded this week were defined into existence by multiculturalist policies and ideas.

It wasn't the youths at Cronulla beach who decided that all Lebanese constitute an ethnic group.

That was done for them by politicians, bureaucrats and academics in the name of constructing ethnic communities.

Those youths certainly can be blamed for trying to beat up a few outnumbered innocents but not for responding to people as ethnics in the first place.

In earlier periods, Lebanese immigrants were not defined as an ethnic group.

Lebanon is one of the oldest sources of Australian migration.

People have been coming from that country since the 1880s.

They were never defined as aliens under the old White Australia Policy and their numbers gradually grew from 601 in 1891 to 2670 in 1933.

Until 1975, almost all were Maronites or Christian Lebanese.

They prospered here, married into the local community and, within two generations, became largely indistinguishable from the Australian mainstream.

One of their offspring, Nick Shehadie, a former lord mayor of Sydney and the husband of NSW Governor Marie Bashir, captained the Wallabies in three of 30 Tests for his country.

How Australian can you get?

After 1975, the onset of civil war brought Lebanese Muslims here on grounds of humanitarian resettlement.

At the same time, the policy of multiculturalism was initiated by the Whitlam Government and entrenched under Malcolm Fraser.

Multiculturalism began and, until recently, was regarded by most Australians as a civilised concept to ease immigrants into their new environment.

But it became corrupted by partisan politics. As former Labor Government minister Barry Jones has admitted, immigration became "a tremendously important element" in building up a long-term, non-English-speaking political constituency for his party.

In the 1980s immigration policy switched from national interest to ethnic preference, from demographic and labour market need to family reunion.

In the name of cultural diversity, the bureaucrats in charge used welfare and housing policy to promote ethnic community building.

This concentrated non-English-speaking immigrants in western and southwestern Sydney.

Most affected were the post-1975 Lebanese Muslims. By 2001, 73 per cent of all Lebanese in Australia were living in these Sydney suburbs.

Multicultural policy was always justified by the assumption that the xenophobia of old Australia was the problem.

This presumption still reverberates in the voices of politicians and journalists who have responded to this week's events as if Australian youths are the real culprits.

Hypocritically, they denounce racial stereotyping of ethnic groups but freely typecast Anglo Australia.

Multiculturalism is also at odds with the core tenets of liberal democracy, where rights inhere in the individual, not the collective, and where people's representatives are elected politicians, not self-appointed ethnic spokesmen or godfathers.

Multiculturalism is a reversion to tribalism that is anachronistic in a modern, liberal, urban society.

In Sydney it has been plain for at least a decade that, instead of ethnic communities living happily in the diversity of social pluralism, multiculturalism has bred ethnic ghettos characterised by high levels of unemployment, welfare dependency, welfare abuse, crime and violence.

The social engineers responsible should have been well aware of the likely outcome, especially for young men.

All the evidence from the numerous studies of similar ethnic ghettos in North America and Europe show they produce much the same result, whatever the colour or ethnicity of their inhabitants.

Ghetto culture for young men everywhere is characterised by interpersonal violence, sexual irresponsibility, incomplete education, substandard speech, a hypersensitivity about being disrespected and a feckless attitude towards work.

The Lebanese assaults on the Cronulla lifesavers that led to this week's mass retaliation were nothing new.

This behaviour has been with us for more than a decade.

When the former principal of Punchbowl Boys High, a school dominated by Lebanese Muslim youth, suffered a breakdown and sued the NSW government, he gave an insight to the local culture.

Between 1995 and 1999, students armed with knives had threatened classmates, teachers were assaulted and gangs invaded classrooms.

On one occasion, the principal had a gun held to his head by a Lebanese gang member who threatened to shoot him.

One of his students was convicted of murdering a Korean schoolboy and three other students were jailed for their roles in some of Sydney's most notorious gang rapes.

In 1997, during a house fire in another Sydney ethnic ghetto at Auburn, known as Little Lebanon, police and firefighters were attacked by youths hurling rocks.

An ambulance had a window shot out, ensuring all future ambulance calls to the locality were accompanied by police escort.

Little Lebanon was a concentration of Muslim families from the same rural district who had come to Australia first as refugees, then as chain immigrants.

At the same time as all of this was going on, however, most Anglo Australians were giving the lie to the stereotype of latent racism.

Outside the ethnic enclaves, instead of racist or ethnocentric attitudes to newcomers, old Australians were working with, marrying and having children with them.

Studies by Monash University's Bob Birrell of the most revealing test of immigrant integration, the marriage rate, showed that by the end of the '90s less than 10 per cent of second-generation marriages of people of European descent were to someone from their parents' country.

Much the same was true of immigrants from south and east Asia.

Only 6 per cent of Indians married within their ethnic group, as did only 18 per cent of Chinese.

In short, most immigrants, whatever their race, married Australians of other nationalities.

However, for the Lebanese, of whom most of marriageable age were Muslims, these figures were reversed.

No less than 74 per cent of Lebanese brides and 61 per cent of Lebanese grooms married within their own ethnic group.

Moreover, these figures had increased since the early '90s, when they were about six percentage points lower.

This pattern may have fulfilled the community-building objective sought by Lebanese political and religious leaders, but it has been a disaster for their constituents' relationship with the rest of Australia.

Put this week's beachside violence into its political and social context, and the conclusion is clear.

It is not race that is the problem but culture.

Multiracialism has been a success in contemporary Australia but multiculturalism has been an abject failure.

Keith Windschuttle's most recent book is The White Australia Policy (Macleay Press, 2004).

**********

Posted by: secularaussie at December 15, 2005 8:34 PM

Multiracialism, multiculturalism ..any more big words people want to throw into this issue?

Let's not confuse the issue ny more.

The problem is simple and only contains four letters.

The problem is ISLAM.

Posted by: Mike_W at December 15, 2005 8:55 PM

oops, five letters...just woke up :)

Posted by: Mike_W at December 15, 2005 8:56 PM

Even Kieth who writes clearly and Lucidly and with factual material spoils it all at the end.
He uses the word "Cultural" instead of religious.
Shame in view of the fact that he explains the plight of the Maronite Lebanese earlier on in the piece.
But the mood is changing and surprisingly Iema seem to have lost his dhimmitued in his recent comments.
I just spoke to a retired NSW PO who echoes TIM Priest and is seriously pissed off with long term dhimmitued of the NSW pols and police chiefs. It caused huge drops of morale in the cops on the street for years as they watched ordinary Australians being insulted, spat on and intimidated for years, whilst the officers hands were tied behind their backs.

Posted by: chevalier de st george at December 15, 2005 8:59 PM

Sheikh yer’mami

>>>I beg to differ:

…that is yr privilege and yr right here as elsewhere

>>I saw PH on TV and I read the transcript of her 'inauguration speech' . She >>said " The country is being swamped by Asians"- and a lot more of the same. >>>These remarks are racist and offensive.

I went though both of her speeches and not only the transcripts but the original recordings as well. There was only one area of suspicion in my mind and it was vaguely present but in such a manner as to be interpreted however you liked it and I do agree that this part could have been termed racist. But I myself did not notice this at the time as it was only when others drew my attention to it that I saw the possible racial interpretation. There was a difference between the media transcript and what she said, so I looked at Hansard which was quite accurate.
I know that we are really splitting hairs here but I will not accept that she was a racist who had a racist agenda. Her aim was to limit immigration period and what other way is there of reducing the Islamic effluent into this country without sounding racist/ religiously intolerant If this also reduced Asians generally then too bad. Sometimes you have to have collateral. (No one dare take this as an indication that I am anti-Asian as I can quickly demolish that one).Now I know that she did NOT have an anti-Islam aim but her aim was to reduce the numbers of minority groups who expected special favour for being a vociferous minority and true equality for everybody. What is so wrong with that? Look at where most immigrant groups are employed and then look at why we allow so many similar to come here. We need cheaper labour to keep the multinationals happy and encouraging massive immigration of poor MEs and Asians is one sure way of getting this. Why do you think that the minimum basic wage has been abandoned? So that we can compete more evenly with Asian countries. This is all part of a Liberal party agenda that goes back for over a decade and she almost upset it for them by challenging their views

>>>In an interview on "60-minutes" she was asked whether she was 'xenophobic' >>>>and she didn't know what the word meant. Sure, GWB may not know it >>>either, but there is no need to argue over which of those two is a bigger >>>embarrassment.

Your point here?? They are both morons and perhaps by his actions dear old GB has alienated a lot more people (not saying that I believe in this totally but it certainly would beat her numbers) Personally I have no time for smarta**es who show their intellectual superiority (??) by trying to make fools of less smart people. More especially if it is via the media. I refused to watch this as I knew that it would be a crucifixion.

>>>Her 'advisors', themselves rather ambitious characters with inflated ego's, >>>(this is an understatement) did as much damage to her career as Brutus did >>>to Caesar. She's gone and she didn't win the dancing contest.

Agreed totally but have no idea re the dancing and care even less.

>>>A poster above stated quite correctly:
>>>>"Pauline Hanson was an Allah-send for Islam
>>>>See how masterfully Islam plays the race car in Australia.
>>>>>Without the media beatup on Pauline Hanson and the race issue several >>>>>years ago they wouldn't have been able to extract anywhere near the >>>>mileage they have from the racism card.

I have already agreed to that and, in fact, it was the reason why I made the point in the first place. However both you and Mike have the point by the tail as by the politicians and the media using the racist card against PH they have no choice now but to suffer the consequences of their actions. This was NOT PH’s doing but theirs. They played this card to get rid of her and now they are stuck with it. If they point out that the cause of the riots were Muslim youths then they are supposedly taking her tack. Why do you think that the media generally are so happily licking the Muslim backside? They have no choice.

>>>She has definitely made it harder for the ordinary Australian to identify the >>>real problem is Islam. "

Sorry to disagree but the blame here lies with the media and the politicians who crucified her on the racist cross.

>>Put your faith in Alexander Downer! What a 'dancer' he is!
>>>Then you might really learn to shake a leg...

Never watched it and have no idea as to what you mean

Posted by: Zathras at December 15, 2005 11:27 PM

Zathras:

Lets make an end to it: PH is done and she won't be back.

Downer is the ultimate slime-ball with silk-stockings. He can 'diplomat-speak' for an hour without saying anything.
What I mean is: he quicksteps and sidesteps any issue successfully and being the ultimate tart -never offending anyone, never doing anything, which means never doing anything wrong- he has staying power.

These are the people we've got.

What will you do to change it?

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at December 16, 2005 3:58 AM

Pax Nobiscum.

I didn't come here to justify or praise PH and although she had ideas which found resonance throughout Australia they were diluted and prostituted by her "friends" and twisted totally by her enemies.

End of a subject which most here found boring.

But I only mentioned her to point out that the media and ALL political parties colluded to free themselves of the threat of a wildcat third party and they played the racist card to do so.
That was only reason her name came into it.

They are now colluding to deflect the blame onto the good old Aussie Yob who will be, as usual, the first to volunteer and the first to die in the next war.

They like the Muslims must think that we are all inherently stupid and suspect nothing.

AS for "silver spoon or fatty " Downer I have already said he is a founder member of the "wouldn't p*ss on if they were on fire club" but is also totally representative of the eunuchoid party parrots that we call politicians.

The fact that we vote for such nincompoops is a true indictment of the lack of political talent in this country and a measure of its subsequent prostitution by the party system.

While we have the current party set up and the nature of those parties remains the same we will always have the sh*t floating to the top.

What to do? No idea legally although i can think of a lot of illegal ideas but commonsense demands that I say and do nothing.

Posted by: Zathras at December 16, 2005 6:03 AM