Mass hysteria among a crowd of 2.5 million is the stuff of nightmares. I can't imagine the lack of consideration among pilgrims to allow that to happen to their fellow hajj-goers, unless there's also some sort of reward or dispensation specified for dying on the hajj. (Is there?)

But those people have families back home; what are they going to say, "Hooray, he died on the hajj. Now who's going to pay the bills?"

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 12, 2006 1:24 PM

And yeah. Crowd control. That's a good one.

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 12, 2006 1:25 PM

It´s a pity for the victims. I have to think about it although I bash islam.

Posted by: Franze at January 12, 2006 1:29 PM

Interesting in that the US media is covering this from early this morning (Jan 12), and even has updated the number of fatalities, yet as of right now (12.30 PM CST) the ArabNews.com is still talking about "Pilgrims Feel Elation, Relief", and "pilgrim traffic that flowed smoothly throughout the day". Nothing about the stampedes.

Is this the acceptable price that the Saudis are willing to pay each year? Hundreds of dead for a symbolic ritual? If 345 people died at the Vatican every year going to get the Pope's blessing, things would change.

Posted by: Mr Jones at January 12, 2006 1:36 PM

On the subject of 'payoffs', I have an interesting story. While in med school, I was friends with a Pakistani student who was smart as all heck . . . a devout Muslim I believe(but am not sure). At any rate, he regaled me with stories how his Father was a pathologist in Saudi and was a US citizen and sheltered tons of money tax free and lived like a king in Saudi with free phones, maid, cook ect... Young and naive, I toyed with the idea for a while. I was informed by my friend Mohamed that as a Jew, I should lie on the application--apparently more than a few western doctors have done this. I doubt I would have gone through with this. His Father visited and I was invited to lunch by Mohamed--with his father. To his distinct credit, he told me I would be 100 % NUTS to embark on such a journey and told me stories about the religious police, corruption ect, but told me it was safe for himself as a native born pakistani. He told me a story how he stayed on post during the gulf war scud attacks(when many Westerners fled) and was rewarded with a nice gift . . . 500 thousand in hundred dollar bills by a wealthy shiek. Still, I remember one saying he told me about Saudi Arabia as well as Pakistan, "David, arabia is the most corrupt place on earth and that's saying alot since I come from Pakistan."

Posted by: biorabbi at January 12, 2006 1:42 PM

"Hooray, he died on the hajj. Now who's going to pay the bills?"

We are. You know that.

ALWAYS ANGRY ALWAYS AGGRIEVED ALWAYS BITTER ALWAYS MOSLEM ALWAYS

The idea of 2.5 million angry rock worshipers all in one place is awesome. But these Moslems have got to loosen up. The Grand Mufti should let them pass around the meteorite mosh pit style, much like the Persians did with Ayatollah Khomeini's cadaver when he croaked. I'd pay good money to have that video on a DVD.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 12, 2006 1:46 PM

Shinoliite,

The Saudis keep saying, "No. You do not gain anything by dying during Haj.", inferring that according to Muslim burial customs, a foreign Hajji would be buried in Saudi Arabia. Many foreign Hajjis do not believe them.

Posted by: jay at January 12, 2006 1:49 PM

Just the place to pick up diseases, and then send them flying not only to the formerly diseased-ridden Islamic world, but now, given where Muslims have settled, even to the advanced world, to the four corners of the earth. Bird flu, TB, whatever you want -- come and get it at the Hajj, as you walk widdershins seven times around the Black Cube, and the Magic Wonderstone within.

Posted by: Hugh at January 12, 2006 2:11 PM

"Hooray, he died on the hajj. Now who's going to pay the bills?"

Apparently Muslims from poor countries are known to empty their entire life savings (and in case of India, government coffers) on haj!

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at January 12, 2006 2:15 PM

I know that this sounds pretty sick, but every year at the www.antijihad.forum, they have a poll on how many people will die at the haj.

I bet between 50 and 100.

Posted by: Voltaire at January 12, 2006 2:40 PM

Has anyone else noticed the similarities between their stoning these 3 pillars and the fact that Muslims hate Christians because they believe in a trinity? Well, that’s one of many reasons they hate Christians, I suppose…

Are they symbolically throwing stones at the devil or are they throwing stones at the Christian religion?

Posted by: illustr8rg8r at January 12, 2006 2:59 PM

Illustr8... Another interesting note: The 'president' of Iran keeps talking about the Mahdi (in the well) who will arise "soon" and rule the world for 7 years.

Christians know about the 7 year tribulation when the Anti-Christ arrives.

Interesting, huh?? Check World Net Daily for more info.

Posted by: Just_Linda at January 12, 2006 3:08 PM

"Has anyone else noticed the similarities between their stoning these 3 pillars and the fact that Muslims hate Christians because they believe in a trinity?"

Funny you should mention that, I was just thinking the same thing this morning when I heard about the trampling. I had no idea that what they did too.

I knew about the Merry-Go-Round the sacred rock thing

Posted by: Mr Ape Pig at January 12, 2006 3:13 PM

I guess Allah must have wanted them to die or he would have stoped it, eh?

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at January 12, 2006 3:31 PM

Vikrant
Apparently Muslims from poor countries are known to empty their entire life savings (and in case of India, government coffers) on haj!

Solution to this - have them buy just 1 wat tickets to Saudi-Arabia, and after they are done, settle outside Mecca (if they don't get to meet Allah in a stampede). That way, they stop being a threat to the countries they inhabit. This is significant, since a lot of formerly "moderate" Muslims become extremists after this "spiritual" experience.

India too should make their haj journeys 1 way - drop them at Jeddah, and then come back. Keep doing it until 100m+ Mohammedans have made the transition. That solves our population problems, and also makes us less vulnerable to a demographic Jihad.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at January 12, 2006 3:32 PM

"Just the place to pick up diseases..." Ouch, but true... However, the Saudis image the "pilgrims" with Western designed infrared sensors to try and prevent this exact scenario...

One more example of the West tireless efforts to make Islam stronger, more endurable, and far better than it ever could possibly be on its own...

Posted by: jsla at January 12, 2006 3:34 PM

I was in tears at this news...all those innocents ...woosh gone in blink.

The suffercation and crush of weight made me think of what my hubby had gone through the quake...wher he suffered a badly punctured lung....most terrible....my condolenses to all muslim bretheren....

Allah ..."thy chosen have fallen today"....I find it hard to take but you know best.

Voltaire.. your comments are shocking!

Pig...you are flying low today.

Den_Man says "It's hard to believe anyone could be so stupid as to buy into the whole Mohammedan
BS".

1.2 billion and rising 2.9% per year. Get to know the good sides too, they will be your neighbors soon.

Seymour Payne says "I really can't crank out any tears for these people. Like bedbugs and roaches, the sooner the world is rid of them, the better".

Unfortunately, it's comments that riles up more muslims and the west gets to "see more pain".

Posted by: Naseem at January 12, 2006 3:42 PM

I'd like to coin another new term:

Hajjkill disease

Posted by: Shy Guy at January 12, 2006 3:44 PM

I was at a major international airport in America last night. Mohammed the TSA agent denied me entry because I didn't have a boarding pass. I said why not I want to meet my brother who's on a layover.

The sneering Mohammed, nodding to the several dozen other Moslem TSA agents starting to look over, said "No, you not allowed. You no can be in."

Being a reasonable guy --- and being fearful of the several rifle carrying 6-3 policemen put there not doubt to keep an eye on our worse-than-useless Moslem security force --- I said to Mohammed, "Praise Allah, fuck you, and go back to Somalia where you belong."

Mohammed stared at me intently for the next hour, as I sat nearby visiting with my brother in a cramped hovel by the door.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ISLAM ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS MOSLEM

With every disembarking Moslem immmigrant, and with every American moron's conversion to Islam, we become a little bit less free.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 12, 2006 3:50 PM

1.2 billion and rising 2.9% per year. Get to know the good sides too, they will be your neighbors soon.

The demographic birth rate of muslims must really cranking up. If this birth rate continues, there wont be standing room on this planet.

They already are neighbours, thought they were never invited. They still come to the West in the millions though it must be clear to all muslims, that they are not welcome.

Posted by: DP111 at January 12, 2006 3:58 PM

TradeSports.com should have an under-over on the death toll next year.

Which gives me an idea, not that Robert would ever condone this, but we could turn this into an Annual Jihad Watch fundraiser whereby people pledge some amount per fatality and donate it in through Amazon once the official number is reported.

Peace.

Posted by: St_James at January 12, 2006 4:02 PM

Naseem says: Get to know the good sides too, they will be your neighbors soon.

Muslims are the good sides? How funny!

My neighbors soon? LOL!! I think not! They wouldn't be there for long…

As far as I'm concerned, the only 'good' muslim is the one bleeding out on the sharp end of my bayonet. Now THAT'S a 'good' muslim! At least that one would no longer be able to hurt innocent civilians with his Islamist terror.

Posted by: Den_Man at January 12, 2006 4:05 PM

Naseem posted: Unfortunately, it's comments that riles up more muslims and the west gets to "see more pain".

Oh really? So we should shut up or else we will see more pain? More suicide bombers from those who we have given a home, free education and health care - and then they mass murder the very people who have given muslims an opportunity for a decent life. And you have the gall to write that Voltaire is shocking.

It is comments such as yours, that justify mass murder, that are shocking.

Posted by: DP111 at January 12, 2006 4:08 PM

I was in tears at this news...all those innocents ...woosh gone in blink./i>

The suffercation and crush of weight made me think of what my hubby had gone through the quake...wher he suffered a badly punctured lung....most terrible....my condolenses to all muslim bretheren....
I agree with you, Naseem. Innocents dont deserve to die. Like they didnt deserve to on 9/11 or 7/7 or the tens of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits since 1989. Where were you when all this happened? Doesnt your heart go out to them? Or is it just for the believers that you shed a tear?

Voltaire.. your comments are shocking!
As shocking as the anti-Zionist comments which arise out of Iran and Palestine daily?

1.2 billion and rising 2.9% per year. Get to know the good sides too, they will be your neighbors soon.
Is that a threat? We all know of the end of times. And Islam is the fastest growing religion because each of the Mussalman has on an average 5 kids. Not because people are attracted to the beauty of Islam. Your own Pakistan was run over by Mahmud of Ghazni and Mohd Ghauri, who raped your grandmothers and killed your grandfathers, thus producing the pure Islamic race. This is the same thing that goes on in Darfur. You are welcome to preach here on the peacefulness of Islam, let us see how much conviction you have.

Unfortunately, it's comments that riles up more muslims and the west gets to "see more pain".
Oh, so you accept it. Muslims hate anything that goes against them and retaliate by killing the innocents. Ah, the religion of peace....

Is your circumcision over yet? I wonder when you will be traded for that new Landcruiser your father has an eye on.

Posted by: Mohd Is Satan at January 12, 2006 4:09 PM

Wasn't this a Zionist conspiracy???

Posted by: pythagoras at January 12, 2006 4:12 PM

Shy Guy,

Your new term gave me the best laugh I've had all year.

Cheers

Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at January 12, 2006 4:14 PM

Naseem writes:
"Seymour Payne says "I really can't crank out any tears for these people. Like bedbugs and roaches, the sooner the world is rid of them, the better".

Unfortunately, it's comments that riles up more muslims and the west gets to "see more pain".

Now, my dear Naseemah, do you understand the
difference between a comment on an internet forum,
and the real live preachers who call for the blood
of infidels in many mosques in every country where
you mohammadans exist? And who have been doing so for as long as Islam has been around? And do you
understand reciprocity?

Once again, you've paraded your mohammadan nature around for all to see, and it isn't pretty! Not only that, you're supposed to be one of the "good
mohammadans", and Ahmadi, real nice people, even
responsible for the 1 (one) mohammadan Nobel Prize
in physics, right? So, this is the mind of one of
the MMMs, the mythical mohammadan moderate:

"Mighty nice country you live in Seymour, better
not say anything BAD, or we might get riled up
and kill someone!"

Frankly, Seymour did step a bit over the line,
roaches probably serve some valuable function.
Muslims? When I start seeing masses of muslims
behaving well, I'll change my mind. Threatening
that they'll kill if insulted, which is what I
expect, makes me agree with Seymour. I laughed at
this, though I was hoping there would be more
mohammadans in Hell with their cult leader, the
pedophile prophet.

Posted by: American at January 12, 2006 4:17 PM

When I start seeing masses of muslims behaving well, I'll change my mind. Threatening that they'll kill if insulted...

Remember: always angry, always aggrieved, always bitter. Always.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 12, 2006 4:31 PM

I understand that Muslims view me as an enemy, that there are some Muslims who view me worthy of death because not because of my deeds but because of the place of my birth. I understand that practice of my beliefs would land me in jail or worse in parts of the Muslim world. I understand that Muslims, even those long-time residents of the West, may not be as dependeable as others in respecting authority or the dignity of others, despite their protests that their religion is all about dignity.

I understand this. And yet I am sad to hear of these Hajj deaths. Sadder still when I realize that these human beings died for a belief system that is based upon theft, spread by coercion and all too frequently defended by lies. A hapless end indeed for these poor souls. I pity them and pray for those dying so miserably and futilely. But I would not trust one of them were they still alive.

Islam is the pod version of religion, appearing mysteriously in the night and popping open, a vacant-eyed replacement where once stood a real human-being, all sense of the Golden Rule kicked to Blazes. The Hajj is how it all started, the lucrative pilgrim trade, people making their way to Mecca to pay their respects to the Arab deities. Mohammed's coup was one of creating a Monopoly out of this pantheon. Islam is less Monotheistic than it is Monopolistic. How many times in the Qur'an does it say something like "Allah and His Messenger?" (Answer: Quite a few times, actually). Sounds a lot like "This show is brought to you by our sponsor (NAME)" if you ask me. Did Allah want to make sure His Messenger got a Messenger's share of the goods?

I pity the ignorance that venerates such clap trap. I hope to God that God exists, and that He has pity on human insanity.

Posted by: Chatillon at January 12, 2006 4:58 PM

A ditty for the haj 2006

The devil made me do it,
made me crush my brother to death,
and now I'm out of breath,
from running to hit
the pillars in the final barrage
of the sacred pilgrimage
and end another glorious haj.

"Allah has power over all things."
Did allah make me do it?

Posted by: the poetess at January 12, 2006 5:27 PM

Once Mohammed was able to wrest the Kaaba from his rich uncle, he appointed a rock god named Allah to be the one and only true God (swt).

ALWAYS MOHAMMED ALWAYS CREEPY ALWAYS SNEAKY ALWAYS MOHAMMED

That's when he switched the Koran from the Ar-Rahman to the new God.

This abrogation thing is a bitch. It ain't easy to concoct a fake religion while building up the ranks of a violent gang and having sex all the time not to mention launching a juggernaut to take over the world.

Not only could he not keep his stories straight, he couldn't keep his Supreme Beings straight.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 12, 2006 5:30 PM

Naseem, while I view any loss of life as a trajedy, I can't help but remember that if this many Christians, Jews, Buddhists or Atheists had been killed in a similar fashion, Muslims would be handing out candy to children and celebrating in the streets like they did after 9-11. Maybe when you regard all life as sacred, the rest of the world will stop looking on Islam as a retarded, murderous cult.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at January 12, 2006 5:39 PM

Mass hysteria to get to paradise and they got there.
Its a dream of every Muslim to die in the so called "holy land" Arabia. The families do not grieve as they have attained paradise. A religion for the not so enlightened.

Posted by: faqi at January 12, 2006 5:39 PM

Chatillon - good and sensible post. I agree with you 100%. I have heard it said that the first victims of Islam are it's followers (namely women and children).

I love your analogy of "this program is brought to you by.......Allah and his messenger!"

I have never thought of it that way, but again, you are 100% right. Mo's ego knew no bounds once his power increased!!

But really, wasn't the Haj stampede caused by the evil joooooooooooooooooooooooos mind ray from outer space, that caused all these peace loving Muslims to go ape??? Isn't that why the Iranians need nukes??? To combat the evil jooooooooooooooooooooos mind ray that seems to be preverting so many Peace Lovers minds these days and turning them away from the true peaceful word of Islam? I mean, those Muslims have there work cut out for them, I heard the jooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooos got their mind ray from aliens on the planet Zorba from the outermost reaches of the galaxy!!

Really, honest, it's true. My story about the joooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooos mind ray perverting Islam is true, it's as true as the message of Peace in Islam itself!!!

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at January 12, 2006 5:47 PM

I have heard it said that the first victims of Islam are it's followers (namely women and children).

I have maintained this for a long time. It is not just women and children who are enslaved by islam but men as well. Like slavery, the system corrupts both the slave and enslaver. Muslim men are no more free then muslim women.

Posted by: DP111 at January 12, 2006 5:53 PM

"1.2 billion and rising 2.9% per year"

Well Naseem, having only two children yourself, it seems that you are not doing your bit to increase the Muslim population. Are you some kind of slacker?

Maybe when hubby comes home you could slip out of your potato sack and into something more enticing. Pull down the shades on your mud hut and kick the chickens out into the yard. You are not being enough of a field for your hubby. Do it for Mohammed!!

Posted by: GFB at January 12, 2006 5:56 PM

DP111, since the most they can ever hope for is "to be a slave to Allah", what else can you expect?

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at January 12, 2006 6:00 PM

Clearly as it seems these deaths always occurr when the stonning is done that this type of action should be banned the UN ahould look into it as Muslims are being killed. I trust the UN will get right on it after they finish condemming the Danes over some comics but hey stoning at religious festival that kills Muslims is okay.Could this panic which seems so common in Mecca be symptomatic of the Muslim culture always rushing not patent,unrully demanding,pushy laod not given to carring about human life like a stampede of wild boars.

Posted by: mark52 at January 12, 2006 6:05 PM

Well, Naseem, if I really thought my comment would rile up the Moslems, I'd fly it from an airplane over all major cities. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: The sooner the world--and by world, I mainly mean the West, but you can throw in Thailand and India as well, learns just how evil Moslems are, how dangerous they are, the sooner the world will rid itself of their presence. I would support any effort to toss them out of the U.S., not that I think that will happen anytime soon. But Denmark and Holland are moving in the right direction, albeit in fits and starts; ditto Germany. As for England, even if the English people themselves hate Moslems (as one said here recently), the government, at most levels is way too busy bending over and grabbing their collective ankles for them.

Posted by: Seymour Paine at January 12, 2006 6:12 PM

Ah, the Hajj Stompfest 2006. Don't forget to buy your t-shirts!

Posted by: Rick at January 12, 2006 6:12 PM

Bohemond posted: since the most they can ever hope for is "to be a slave to Allah", what else can you expect?

Nothing else. It is a shame muslims do not see that. I have argued that it is damnably hard for muslims to see the prison, when then are living within it, as it is afterall, the only home they have known.

On many occasions I feel pity for muslims, as they have shut themselves off in the cultural prison of islam, isolating themselves from the ever expanding human cultural evolution.

Sometime back I wrote on the Gates about islam and slavery.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2005/08/freedom-of-burqa.html

Posted by: DP111 at January 12, 2006 6:18 PM

I'd love to see a series of tee shirts, maybe called the Moslem Cotton series.

Nothing fancy, just pictures of angry Moslems framed with messages. Imagine in block letters the word MOSLEMS above a picture of an angry Ibrahim Hooper and then YA GOT TO LOVE 'EM beneath his frowning visage.

That'd be great.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 12, 2006 6:20 PM

Voltaire: I know that this sounds pretty sick, but every year at the www.antijihad.forum, they have a poll on how many people will die at the haj.

St_James: Which gives me an idea, not that Robert would ever condone this, but we could turn this into an Annual Jihad Watch fundraiser whereby people pledge some amount per fatality and donate it in through Amazon once the official number is reported.

Actually, we could draw a pool, where we bet on the number. We could avoid blemishing the fair name of jihadwatch by doing this on a different site. I suggest hajkill.com (someone quickly reserve that sitename), in honor of Shy Guy's suggestion above.

Of course, it would be gambling - that great haram in Islam. Of course, this would be online, but if it ever really became a bricks & mortar operation, we could contract Advanced Pig Farmer to provide all the bacon, rib-eye, sausages for such an operation (till the day he gets his Pentagon contracts). The winnings would be like the lotto - the guys who hit the exact number hit the jackpot, and smaller winnings for those within a margin of error. ;-)

Naseem: Allah ..."thy chosen have fallen today"....I find it hard to take but you know best.

Precisely! Stop bawling like an infidel! Instead, rejoice, for this was the will of Allah (pbuh), and these good Mohammedans are now with him and his raisins. As for the good sides, the only good sides are the ones that Allah calls unto him, for he knows best...

Posted by: Infidel Pride at January 12, 2006 6:25 PM

Muslim men are no more free then muslim women.
--- posted by DP111

Tell that to Miss Moslem when she's got a line of engorged Moslem Men snaking from her bedroom out into the street and halfway down the block.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 12, 2006 6:25 PM

Alarmed Pig Farmer

All muslims, men and women are caught up in the prison of islam. The slavery of muslim women is more public as I've posted in the GoV link, but as I said, the system corrupts both the slaver and the enslaved.

Posted by: DP111 at January 12, 2006 6:41 PM

Found a BBC dhimmi!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4605334.stm

innocent story about veiled barbie dolls for kids

but the punchline is at the end:

"The surge in sales of Muslim girls' toys, including the veiled Fulla, comes AMID NEW ENTHUSIASM AMONG MUSLIM WOMEN FOR WEARING THE VEIL"

of course, ignoring the threats and intimidation that women in Islamistan get if they dont wear it.

if thats not blatant dhimmi propaganda , i dont know what is.

Posted by: archduke at January 12, 2006 6:43 PM

Found a BBC dhimmi!

Needle in haystack.

Posted by: Interested at January 12, 2006 7:02 PM

I agree with Franze who wrote: "It´s a pity for the victims. I have to think about it although I bash islam."

These people are victims of Islam too. They were raised in a closed system in which they believe they are obeying God's commands. We should never cease to care for the average Muslim and pray that they will be able to break free from this oppressive system.

If all these people did was the "Five Pillars" of prayer, zakat, hajj, etc. then I would have no problem with them. These purely religious aspects of Islam are not an issue. The problem is that Islam is not just a religion but also an ideology of oppression. That is why Islam kills so many innocents.

Posted by: Provoslavni at January 12, 2006 7:28 PM

I wonder if everyone also feels a great pity for all
of those Nazis, victims of an evil ideology which
subjugates them. They were victims of Nazism, the ideology. Nice how that works, everyone can be a
victim.

Come on! That holds for children, but at some point,
children grow up, and are responsible for their
actions.

I don't feel pity for these people. I feel pity for
all of the infidels who the survivors will kill.

Posted by: American at January 12, 2006 8:44 PM

I don't rejoice in the death of those pilgrims. Still, it seems strange for me, as a Westerner, to hear the news of these Haj deaths repeated year after year with any serious adjustments by the KSA to insure this doesn't happen annually. With all of their money, can't the Saudis have their police study crowd control methods? Must it always be just..inshallah. As for Naseem's threat that the West will see more pain, I am not surprised. Muslims will always see themselves as victims and therefore will always justify the hate and violence that they do to the non-Muslims in the world. By the way, given all of the millions of Muslims that have made the Haj and actually lived through the experience, it seems to make no difference in the level of violence both in the Islamic world and in the West. I can only conclude that the ultimate Muslim spiritual experience is really only a empty ritual, on the same level as kissing the Blarney stone.

Posted by: maryrose at January 12, 2006 9:06 PM

Maybe when hubby comes home you could slip out of your potato sack and into something more enticing. Pull down the shades on your mud hut and kick the chickens out into the yard. You are not being enough of a field for your hubby. Do it for Mohammed!!

Posted by: GFB at January 12, 2006 05:56 PM

Hubby is home now, he was severely injured in the recent earthquake, punctured lung I think. He's recovering with the help of Naseem's nursing talents and kafir medicine because the magnificent Islamic world cannot find the time, talent, or resources to build any pharmaceutical plants. If they built the necessary facilities, they would have to hire kafir scientists or educate a few of their best and brightest in the West to staff them. Anyway, they don't have time for such trivialities when there's jihad to be waged, the world to conquer, infidels to convert or kill, and so much genocide, torture, rape, slavery, carnage and destruction to attend to. Whatever they need, they'll either steal or demand from the corrupt and wicked West. Kofi will see to it that they get their share of the Great Satan's wealth.

Let's see, Naseem has kids in college so if she married at nine, had her first one at twelve, she should still be good for at least five or six more. She's probably only around thirty, unless she got a very, very late start. I'm surprised she hasn't been stoned to death for dereliction of duty; there is simply no excuse for an honorable Pakistani muslima not to have twelve children unless she's slamming the door on hubby. That must not be the case or he would have killed her by now.

Posted by: Susanp at January 12, 2006 10:23 PM

Found a BBC dhimmi!

Hay in haystack.

Posted by: jsla at January 12, 2006 10:30 PM

American:

There is a real distinction to be made between those who have lived all their lives in a closed system and those who are responsible for the system.

Many of those killed in these yearly stampedes are women, children and the infirmed while the much-stronger Muslim men are doing the stampeding. This is just another face of the Islamic evil.

Likewise an 18 year old draftee into the German Army was not as culpable as an SS Grupenfuehrer.

Look at it this way, If you or I engaged in cannibalism, we would rightly be condemned. When a member of the Fore tribe in New Guinea engaged in cannibalism, he is not condemned because that is all he knows. Instead he is seen as an uncivilized savage who needs to be taught otherwise.

It is the same with these poor savages making the Hajj. The condemnation needs to be focused on the preachers, the madrassas, and the truly savage regimes in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, etc.

Posted by: Provoslavni at January 12, 2006 10:32 PM

Kafir Nonbeliever-

Occam's Razor would render your elaborate method unnecessary.

All you need to do is exactly what the pilgrims already do, only more so.

A rumor that a suicide bomber was in the crowd caused a similar Iraqi panic disaster on a bridge last year during yet another religious festival, killing many.

An hysterical sect, geared to irrationality and extreme emotionalism, and at a fever pitch for the hadj ceremony of "stoning Satan", needs only a tiny trigger to cause a stampede of the followers of Moo-ham-mad.

I would rather see them run from Islam rather than merely to their doom.

But, as long as they aren't, and as long as they threaten all infidels, especially skeptics like msyelf, I wish them what they wish me.

(The Golden Rule's boomerang clause.)

Posted by: profitsbeard at January 13, 2006 12:09 AM

What worries me about the Hajj is the idea of an outbreak of Bird Flu (or other communicable agent) amount 2.5 million people, who are living with minimal sanitary and public health standards, and planning to return to all over the world.

Mind you I'm not talking about bio warfare but the simple natural outbreak of TB or Flu or the like.

Posted by: Zach at January 13, 2006 2:44 AM

With the amount of money the Saudis rake in over this event every year, they should be able to put together the right conditions to ensure safety.

Why did Mohammad want the hadj? Probably because all the tithes, previously going to the 360 separate tribes, would now all be flowing to Allah and his Messenger. In other words, Mohammad created a monotheistic monopoly.

Does anyone know what the Saudis do with all this money? Isn't this collection supposed to go to charitable causes?

Posted by: Archimedes at January 13, 2006 3:48 AM

This is appalling. 345 dead out of 2.5 mil. About 0.0138%. The Saudis have tried to reduce the death-toll by enlarging the size of the stoning walls [to get more through per day]. Working on the theory that death during the hajj is tantamount to shahidism, maybe they should remove the walls altogether, and have 1.25 mil down one end , the rest down the other, sell both sides a large pile of rocks and let Allah's will be done. "Let him without sin cast the first stone".

Posted by: islamophobic pride at January 13, 2006 4:06 AM

I don't know folks. I'm not trying to ride in on my high horse here. I admit to despising the doctrine of Islam (as all freedom-loving people should). I confess to an almost visceral revulsion when I see a bearded Muslim man or a woman wearing the hijab (something I struggle with).

But some of these comments here have me shaking my head. I don't think Robert Spencer created JW/DW so that we could get our rocks off with blood-thirsty rants celebrating human tragedies.

Such comments only give ammunition to the enemies of this web-site, who then find it so much easier to tar Mr Spencer with the brush of hate-monger. Beyond that, many of the words I'm reading here drag us down to the level of our enemy, who routinely de-humanize 'the other' with similarly hate-filled sentiments.

I like to think what we are doing here is to educate and inform...to deconstruct every facet of Islamic theory and practice in order to understand and ultimately delegitimate this barbaric belief system.

I don't believe in self-censorship in order to avoid offending the sensibilities of Muslims. For example, a Leftist interlocutor once suggested to me at another web-site that comments about the Prophet's relationship with his child-bride Ayesha were counter-productive in the effort to encourage moderation and reform in the Muslim world.

I completely disagree. This relationship should and must be exposed in all its infamy because of the lasting influence it has had on the social mores of the Islamic world.

In the same vein, a tragedy such as what occurred in Mecca deserves sociological analysis. Robert wasn't wrong to post it. And comments discussing the bizarre ritual that led to it...and the emotionalism and irrationality that contributed to it are absolutely fair game.

But when we discard our humanity by callously celebrating the loss of life, we grow to resemble our enemy...and thereby lose a very important distinction that otherwise elevates us above them.

Sorry for the lecture.

Posted by: Cornelius at January 13, 2006 5:49 AM

According to Indian muslims whom relatives were crushed to death at Hajjjjjjj, these people will go to the haeven. But they also believe that Satan was somehow bribed by the Mosad and because of this Zionist Conspiracy, Satan stoned their relatives to death.

Posted by: iqbal at January 13, 2006 6:46 AM

Allah ..."thy chosen have fallen today"....I find it hard to take but you know best.

Posted by: Naseem at January 12, 2006 03:42 PM

Naseem:

What makes you so certain that this is about the will of God, whatever name you care to confer on the Almighty and not irrational obsessions given a religious facade, hysteria and Saudi greed for tourism dollars.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at January 13, 2006 8:12 AM

fireangel wrote: "Perhaps more muslims would get a clue about their religion if more of their family trees had branches."

On that point, I'll add an "Amen!" This problem is completely overlooked in the Multi-Culti Front encompassing the current 'Jihad for the Caliphate', or, in other words, annhilation of the other (us). All cultures are 'equally valid' and 'Who are we to judge?', Darwin be d*mned.

Posted by: Rick at January 13, 2006 8:22 AM

what kind of a god would want to have inoncent women and children killed at mecca? sick god for sure! Naseem how could you say allah blessed these people to death, while they glorified this god? sounds sick to me for sure!!! l only beleive it's human tragedy brought by human greed and lust for power that created islam !

Posted by: Lulu at January 13, 2006 9:05 AM

How long before someone blames Pres. Bush for the stampede?

Of all the millions who went to Pope JP2's funeral, how many died in stampedes?

I'm not going to celebrate the deaths, I think the whole thing is unfortunate. That's alot more sympaty than the dancing fools gave the 9/11 victims.

Posted by: Balrog at January 13, 2006 9:42 AM

Naseem.........The comments you don't like ...you poor thing.
Westerners have very much worse thrown at them from your supposedly religious leaders, so give me a break. We put up with so many nasty things from nasty imams but we turn theother cheek................up till now.

Posted by: marilyn at January 13, 2006 10:20 AM

I don't believe in self-censorship in order to avoid offending the sensibilities of Muslims.
--- posted by Cornelius

Aggrievement has been one of their most effect and dangerous weapons since the early 7th century.

YOU GOT TO LOVE MOSLEMS YOU GOT TO LOVE ISLAM YOU GOT TO ... OR ELSE

After years of death threats and robbery threats and slanders (Satanic Verses) the Koreish grew tired of Mohammed's bullcrap and complained to His rich uncle and the Holy Prophet became incensed and went off the deep end and Islam had found its perpetual energy source: being offended.

That was a religious moment. Right there on the burning sands of that worthless hell-hole Mecca.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 13, 2006 10:42 AM

The newspaper of my large American city carried a piece about this Hajj, a piece written by a reporter with a Muslim name, in which he took pains to mention that "women and men jostled each other". Are women and men allowed to mingle at the Hajj? Somehow, I doubt this.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at January 13, 2006 10:48 AM

I know enough about Islam to know that I do not want to be a Muslim.

For similar reasons, I would not want to have my actions ever confused with those of a Muslim, the type that carefully follows the precepts of Mohammed as laid out in Mohammed's recitations in his Qur'an and Hadith.

I will therefore not engage in fantasies in which ignorant but innocent people are harmed. I will not rejoice when such harm comes to them even through the pursuit of their own stupidity. They too are made in God's image.

As for those who actively plot evil, they must be resisted with as much force as is necessary to prevent them from doing so. Unlike the Jihadis, I do not believe war is ever good. I simply believe that at times it is the least of evils.

Posted by: Chatillon at January 13, 2006 11:39 AM

They too are made in God's image.

I'm not a religious man, but I think you meant to say They are made in the Devil's image. That would align much better with their beliefs, feelings, and behaviors.

Evil as is evil does. To proclaim evil God-like is to wave the white flag before Islam, a popular new activity of late.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 13, 2006 12:01 PM

It's true that schadenfreude is unbecoming, and
very un American, but alas it is a human failing.
Just to give you an idea, I wadn't ululating in the
streets and handing out sweets (I save that for
earthquakes ;-), I simply snickered a bit.

As for Islam being closed, I think in many cases
the ones who hate us have seen the West. Is it
OK to rejoice if they buy it?

As far as "becoming them" by rejoicing at their
suffering, that's a wonderful theory, and looks
nice when written down, and may even make you feel
like Jesus, or whatever moves you, but I think
that's nonsense. It's like the argument that
hunters are likely to become mass murderers; sure
I see the connection, but lots of things that look
similar are not.

Hatred is not always wrong. Some things deserve to
be hated.

Posted by: American at January 13, 2006 1:28 PM

Dr. Pepper
I believe they are. I remember a Nightline with Ted Koppel of many years ago, about Islam and hadjj in an interview with an ABC employee who had converted to Islam. One of the points he was making was the intermingling of the sexes, races, ethnic groups in the performance of the rituals. Apparently that was a very powerful spiritual experience....

Posted by: ovidius_naso at January 13, 2006 2:06 PM

"in which he took pains to mention that "women and men jostled each other"

How come if they were jostling together, that no women were among the dead?
It was an all male frenzy to stone the devil and it appears the devil won the battle.

Devil - 345 , Islam - 0.

Posted by: faqi at January 13, 2006 3:12 PM

Chatillon, I'm not rejoicing at anyone's death, but I do think that if you go on such event as the haj, then you do take your own life in your hands.

Posted by: Voltaire at January 13, 2006 3:46 PM

I don't think that bird flu is common enough in human population to be serious threat yet. I'd be more concerned with tuberculosis and polio from the African hajjis. I do know that nasty colds that the expats nickname "the Hajji flu" are very common right after Haj ends.

Posted by: jay at January 13, 2006 3:48 PM

With all those Moslem Men crammed into Mecca, I'd be concerned about and AIDS outbreak.

Hidden pearls.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 13, 2006 4:19 PM

Cornelius

I agree with you. I have known about islam and its perverse and evil character since June 1967. Despite the actions of islamists such as killing children just because they were Jewish, I feel that muslims are to be pitied.

Taking a more charitable and sympathetic approach to muslims, on the assumption that most of them are unaware of the central tenets of islam, allows us to take action, even of the most drastic kind, secure in the knowledge that our actions are for the good mankind, and muslims in particular. Even if this assumption is wrong, does not invalidate the approach.

In an article I wrote sometime ago, I argued the necessity of taking a charitable as well as moral approach, as this allows us freedom of action.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2005/08/freedom-of-burqa.html

Posted by: DP111 at January 13, 2006 5:06 PM

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2B66B34C-1900-4DDB-93EB-C05820FCC886.htm

Dying in Makka

Dying while on Hajj is considered to be very auspicious. The deaths have not shocked many people, with several pilgrims certain that those who die during Hajj enter paradise.

"I wish I was among the pilgrims who died on Sunday," Kamal Shahada, an Egyptian pilgrim, said.

"I would have gone to heaven, because dying in these holy sites of Islam would assure one a place in heaven," he said, echoing a widespread conviction in the Islamic world.

Libyan Muhammad Taylamun agreed. "The two million faithful who gathered every year at the holy sites for the pilgrimage hope to have the honour of being buried in this sacred soil," he said.

The scale of the tragedy which cast a shadow over the Hajj certainly provoked compassion among the gathering, but fatalism predominates among "the guests of God".

"Those who died will be missed by their families and friends but they have a chance no one else can have by dying on the holy land of Islam where they are then buried," said a Bangladeshi.

Dying while on hajj is equal only to killing an infidel, as far as getting into "heaven" goes. If a "moderate" muslim, I would prefer the hajj death trip. But that's just me. Sorry for all the "scare quotes". :b

Posted by: zhu97 at January 13, 2006 7:55 PM

Gee, this is a great website and a fabulous blog.

I bet all the people who post here are looking for a place to share the love and expand their minds.

I love how it's all impartial and thoroughly intelligent and all.

I bet you sway a lot of minds toward the "hate Muslims" point of view.

Guess you get a lot of Muslims commenting and giving alternative views all the time too. I'm sure they'd love to banter with you all. And I'm sure they'd come back time after time to enlighten themselves as to how retarded, evil and stupid they are.

Or is this a hate club for anti-semites who hate arabs and muslims instead of the usual? Is this a place for dried up haters to bond with their brothers and sisters?

Enjoy.

Just wondering?

Posted by: rebab-bob-beeboob-bedap at January 13, 2006 8:10 PM

cornelius, and others are right to condemn these callous remarks from some posters.

As for rebab, I doubt that he read "all of the (people's)" posts.

Posted by: Archimedes at January 13, 2006 9:19 PM

As I watch images from the Hajj all I can think of is I wish that I could get my hands on one of those famous suite case nukes and some how slip it into the luggage that they had tripped over.

Posted by: Real American at January 13, 2006 9:38 PM

Archemedis, DP111,

Thanks for the validation.

DP111,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm not necessarily advocating a charitable or sympathetic approach to Muslims. Some Muslims may warrent a degree of charity and/or sympathy depending on circumstance. Others warrent absolutely none.

I want to make it clear that I'm not shedding any crocadile tears over this tragedy. But neither am I celebrating.

Pig Farmer,

Yes indeed, aggrievement has been a hallmark of Islam and I believe this at least partly stems from the personality of Muhammad.

According to the Hadith of Bukari, when Muhammad solicited the murder of K'ab (a poet who had ridiculed the Prophet in his verse), he did so by saying K'ab had "hurt Allah and Allah's Apostle."

Bin Ladin used identical terminology when he solicited the murder of Ahmad Shah Massoud 3 days before Sept 11.

Posted by: Cornelius at January 13, 2006 10:06 PM

The liberal left speaks its ? "mind" as a flicker of light before the oncoming shariac darkness.

>I bet all the people who post here are looking >for a place to share the love and expand their >minds.

What would you know? Your tone proves that you made your mind up long before you came here.

>I love how it's all impartial and thoroughly >intelligent and all.

yes some of it is, which is more than I can say about the pus oozing out of the mouths of many muslim clerics and not a few Muslim "leaders".

>I bet you sway a lot of minds toward the "hate >Muslims" point of view.

Why? Do you recommend we love them and allow Sharia law and its barbarism to flood the world?

>Guess you get a lot of Muslims commenting and >giving alternative views all the time too. I'm >sure they'd love to banter with you all. And >I'm sure they'd come back time after time to >enlighten themselves as to how retarded, evil >and stupid they are.

Well you seem to know more about this site than most of us do who look at it every day. Why have you not posted before? You must have been extremely bored to have read all the articles and coments here to enable such an erudite opinion of the site. As for how evil and retarded most Muslims are that statement is as stupid as is the rest of your "opinions".

>Or is this a hate club for anti-semites who >hate arabs and muslims instead of the usual? Is >this a place for dried up haters to bond with >their brothers and sisters?

That is biased and ignorant and I am being totally stupid even answering you. But let me ask you one question? If you are a Christian or a Jew, have you ever visited Saudi Arabia for a prolonged stay? If not then are all your opinions based upon ignorance? If you are a female then I know you haven't visited SA unless you are a Muslim in which case this is pointless.

>Enjoy. Just wondering?

Are you capable of this? It really does sound like you came here with a definite axe to grind.
Some of the opinions here are extreme but on the whole the tone is less violent and less bloodcthirsty than most similar islamic sites.

But then we know you are either Muslim or a liberal who has never read the Qur'an, the hadith or a textbook on Sharia law, nor experienced Islamic "love" first hand.

Back to school now.

Posted by: Zathras at January 13, 2006 10:18 PM

Sad to say it - but that will teach these pagan moslems to throw stones at their god. numbat

Posted by: numbat at January 13, 2006 10:43 PM

v. funny, numbat!

rebab-bob-beeboob-bedap, we don't all hate muslims, and there are repeat muslim posters. Most of us hate Islam, because it is a death cult. If we could dismantle Islam, 1.2 bil people would be set free, and the other ~4 bil would be much safer.

from another story this site:

“It’s not that they’re bad because they’re Muslims, our problem was with their teaching of Islam.” ~ Majed El Shafie

Posted by: islamophobic pride at January 13, 2006 11:51 PM

I'm not taking pleasure in the deaths of 345 (is that the real number?)people, I just don't care. These are the people who want my family dead...they want our whole world enslaved to islam. Don't expect me to mourn my enemy.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at January 14, 2006 12:50 AM

Cornelius,

I was also disappointed in some of the callous remarks made about the deaths at the Hajj.I'm diappointed because I think we should be better then the enemy.An enemy that rejoices in death and human suffering. Having said that, five years of Muslims committing mass murder and rejoicing in the killing of innocents has hardened my attitudes toward them. Back in 2000 I would have been saddened by this "senseless tragedy" now I simply don't care. Muslims are killing non-Muslims all over the world, so I can't bring myself to shed crocodile tears over the annual deaths at the Hajj.It's not like these deaths are unusual I'm sure the same thing will happen again next year.

Posted by: Roxane at January 14, 2006 1:06 AM

For those who are critical of those of us who decide to use this as a morbid source of entertainment, do you have any idea of how many of these 345 were innocent, and how many were Jihadists? Once I have a such an analysis, I may sympathize with the innocent.

But experienence shows us that typically, people who return from the haj undergo a change towards a more devout i.e. fanatical practice of Islam. This includes erstwhile moderates. If in the process of this stampede such potential terrorists were sent to their martyrdom before they could hurt any infidels, why should that not be treated as good news?

Somewhat OT, but I came across this dateline in Dawn - the Paki newspaper

http://www.dawn.com/2006/01/14/top1.htm

Question - what is Mina? Did Mecca change its name while I wasn't looking?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at January 14, 2006 1:30 AM

Will the Islamic world make a meeting to see how these deaths can be prevented oh no lets have a meeting about the Danish comics and protest and get the UN involved .345 people killed well no meeting no UN,business as usual.No rioting over the mismanagement that cause the deaths of innocent Muslims.The government must be held accountable for there deaths if human life cannot be protected then UN should demand the festival to stop,the killing of Muslims must stop as the main sourse of the deaths in the world to Muslims is this annual festival perhaps it needs to have Un presence with UN troops to guard the innocent Muslims from being kille year after year.I hope CAIR will see to it that this will stop perhaps some lawsuits will cause safety to become better.

Posted by: mark52 at January 14, 2006 3:08 AM

Many posters above still don't seem to recognize or understand that Muslims are waging war against us -- While I don't think it's fitting to take a perverse glee in the deaths and setbacks of your enemy, it's not wrong to wish for his demise...

It is also not wrong to be hateful of your enemy -- Who was there, balefully weeping for the Nazis and Imperial Japanese, after they waged their hateful wars against us? Such persons existed, but they were nearly useless in the war we were waging, and I take great exception to the notion that these persons did anything of merit for our cause, and they certainly cannot be credited with preventing the flame of Western Humanity from being extinguished... We killed our enemies, waged a ruthless war against them, and kept our humanity all at the same time... After all, being in a war for our survival, it was appropriate to wage a fitting WAR... And since we were at at war, it was only appropriate to find ways and means to demoralize, disorient, and KILL our enemies and in sufficient numbers to finally pursuade him to stop waging war against us... Circumstances that happened to lead to our enemy's death in World War 2, (and I'm sure there were instances of accidents, or tramplings at rallies which claimed many fascist lives...) were not reasons to dance and hand our sweets in wild ululation... They were not reasons for sorrow on our part...

It would have been utter and disgusting folly to hope that showing our "soft side" would dissuade the Nazi or Fascist Japanese from his hate filled ideology of domination, supremacy, and annihilation against us... It only fueled his sense that we were contemptible... Showing our forgiving side, or by being fearful of expressing our desire for his destruction -- ("stooping to his level" as referred to above) would have done more harm to us, and aided him in his contempt... It would have been foolish and deserving of ridicule...

So if Islam really is waging war against us, and I fervently believe the Muslim is doing this with fervor, then it is utter and disgusting folly to hope that showing our "soft side" will dissuade the Muslim from his hate filled ideology of domination, supremacy, and annihilation against us... It only fuels his sense that we are contemptible... Showing our forgiving side to him, or by being fearful of expressing our desire for his destruction (also "stooping to his level" as referred to above) will do more harm to us, and aid him in his contempt and his cause of Jihad... It is foolish and deserving of ridicule...

Posted by: jsla at January 14, 2006 1:55 PM

fireangel: "Perhaps more muslims would get a clue about their religion if more of their family trees had branches."

Sorry to make my very first post here a stoopid question, but....

Could someone please explain that quote to me in plain English? I feel like a dolt, but I just don't understand the meaning.

Thanks

Posted by: Flatlander by the Lake at January 14, 2006 1:59 PM

fireangel: "Perhaps more muslims would get a clue about their religion if more of their family trees had branches."
____________________

Not sure but I think this is a reference to the rampant inbreeding and clanism of the Muslim world

Posted by: dennisw at January 14, 2006 3:16 PM

JSLA:

I think most visitors here do understand the situation: we are at war. The Weat is under attack, subversive and overt. This war is particularly sticky, due to its putting to the test Western notions of free speach, due process and freedom of association.

I don't like war. I would rather go the extra mile in the hope that ill will can be replaced with good will. But we're all aware that there are creatures who like to inflict hurt, who are all too eager to keep slapping one's face for as long as one chooses to offer it for beating. Is this virtue to allow one's self to be buffeted forever? I don't know that it is. But what if one's tormentor chooses to slap the cheek of one's child or one's parent? Clearly, this is not justice. It is unacceptable and must be resisted. War is thus sometimes necessary. But I don't like war.

The people who perished so miserably in this incident are not my friends. First, I don't know them but also I suspect that a number of them would wish no good to me, nor to my family and friends. They were infected with a disease of the spirit that I dread, for I feel it lurking nearby. Even today, everytime I see a picture of Ayatollah Khomeni, I am filled with such a visceral disgust that it takes my breath away. This guy is gone now to his judgement and good riddance. And I have to admit that the farce of his funeral delighted my dark side. But even as I catch myself feeling this anger and outrage, I still wonder: how did that creature get to be that way, when presumably at some point he was a human being? Was it through hatred, as fomented by Islam? I think we agree on this point.

I don't want to be infected with that Muslim disease. Yes, at times I pity the ones who are infected with that illness. Many of them are simple folk who don't have the breadth of experience to resist their sickness. I pity them, even as I gently and discreetly check to make sure that my wallet is in my secret pocket. Even those who aren't so simple find the tide hard to resist. If you were at Nurenberg during the rallies, would you have said "This is BS. I'm out of here?" Perhaps you would have. I'm not so sure I would have had the guts to do so. So pity isn't out of order and it isn't soft. It's the best of being human. That's what we're fighting for.

Posted by: Chatillon at January 14, 2006 6:42 PM