I am confused as to why we need such Forums? I know of the saying "No smoke without fire"!

Well, had Muslims not painted Islam in such a bad light these educational meetings would not be necesary would they?

How about forums about Jews for the Muslims, help them understand their unfounded hatred! How about a Budist day to teach about a true peaceful religion?

I understand why so many westeners believe the religion 'cant' be evil; it is because most people are honest and genuine and find the idea far to difficult to believe... The thing is they MUST believe and undertand the Pure evil of Islam!

Posted by: ausbrit at January 24, 2006 5:39 AM

Somewhat OT:

An absolutely brilliant interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/takingastand/pip/nqi5q/

If there is any chance of an Islamic reformation, this inspirational woman will surely lead it.

Rick S. and other Muslim apologists, listen and take note.

Posted by: Charles Martel at January 24, 2006 5:42 AM

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_040726rw.shtml

"The Archbishop of Canterbury is to mark the third anniversary of the September 11 terrorist attacks by praising Islam in an address from the pulpit of an Egyptian mosque, reports the Sunday Times."

with that sort of stuff going on, its no wonder that the Church Of England is losing members at a disastrous rate.

regular church attendance in england amounts to about 1 to 2 PER CENT of the population.

so, despite all the official "archbishop" titles, Dr Williams leads nothing more that a minority sect in England and doesnt reflect the reality of how the Brits thinks or feel.

Posted by: archduke at January 24, 2006 5:50 AM

The Church of England has been more concerned with political affairs and ecumenism than the real world of persecution and sin. If they dared to open their eyes, they might end up seeing that it is the Islamic world that needs tolerance.

Posted by: robinusmaximus at January 24, 2006 5:55 AM

Hello all,

I really love this guy...Dr. Rowan Williams. Here are some of his beliefs:

1) "The Crusades were a serious betrayal of Christian beliefs."

2) "Most Christians would now say that the history of the crusades, for example, or the religious wars in Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, were serious betrayals of many of the central beliefs of Christian faith."

His comments, (made in Pakistan), were an attempt to reassure Muslims that the Churches are anxious to avert confrontation between the West and Islamic states.

I mean here, we are with sites like JW "Desperately" trying to educate anybody about Islam and how the crusades were a necessary defensive action ...almost 300 years too late. And on the other end we have the head....THE HEAD no less of the English Church (the Queen doesn't count...as she is not allowed to say anything), in virtually apologising and saying in essense "Our forefathers were wrong...for giving you a hard time...for killing lots of muslims...and that it was not self defense by the christians .....BUT an unforgivable act of aggression"...

Even I know that christians had little choice but to fight the crusades ...or see the beginning of the end of christian faith.

Now he was trying to convince muslims over there...so he wouldn't have had much trouble on that score. Let me say again that this is being said by the Archbishop of Canterbury NOT a muslim....boy ...could it get better than that?

Oh wait a minute...it just has....he is doing the same thing over here....only this time he is trying to convince the christians....ha ha ha ...no it doesn't get much better. ....I think he envies Islam you know.

"Here is , his latest quote.
"Any attempt to revive the crusading ideal today would not garner much support among Christians".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=JTJ4WHJ23G51TQFIQMFSFF4AVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2005/11/18/nchur18.xml

Personally I think there would be tremendous support for it.....I think he should be replaced with Angela Merkel before the christian faith is no more....for as you can see we have no such problem with Islam.

Posted by: Naseem at January 24, 2006 6:17 AM

for as you can see we have no such problem with Islam

No, no such problem with Islam for Islam is a backward, sclerotic, and tyrannical political ideology holding its aderents captive to 7th century concepts of triumphalism, warfare, and vengeance.

There is no chance at the moment that Muslim leaders or scholars with any broad following would make statements similar to those of Williams; for example, taking responsibility and apologising for the genocide of 1 million Armenians or 80 million Hindus.

The Qur'an is the literal word of Allah and Mohammad his holy prophet, so everything written and every violent act committed in the name of Islam is sacrosanct. Faithful Muslims are proscribed from critical thought, much less critical analysis of their own male

Posted by: Charles Martel at January 24, 2006 6:50 AM

The Qur'an is the literal word of Allah and Mohammad his holy prophet, so everything written and every violent act committed in the name of Islam is sacrosanct. Faithful Muslims are proscribed from critical thought, much less critical analysis of their own malevolent teachings and history.

Posted by: Charles Martel at January 24, 2006 6:52 AM

"combat the ... misunderstandings of Islam"

(Yawn) There's only so much creativity you can infuse into taqiya before it becomes the same old boring lies.

Posted by: US_infidel at January 24, 2006 10:43 AM

Bridges to the non-Muslim world in the context of Islam are means to conquer non-Muslims or for deceived non-Muslims to become Muslim...that is all.

Posted by: Abby at January 24, 2006 11:01 AM

Naseem:

Were you living in the UK when there was a TV program called "Yes, Prime Minister" being broadcast? I'm thinking in particular, of the episode when a new Archbishop of Canterbury needed to be appointed and the PM's choice narrowed down, and I stand to be corrected on this, an athiest and someone who had converted to Islam,with the latter having the edge because at least he still believed in God.

I'm sure GrannyW (whose posts I have missed over the last few days) would have plenty to say about Rowan Williams.

To everyone else, I had an odd thought come into mind this morning as I read a piece by Christopher Hitchens about the founder of the infamous "Lord's Resistance Army", a Ugandan Catholic named Joseph Kony, who has dragooned countless children into his sect. Hitchens thinks Kony suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder, a psychiatric diagnosis, that I believe has lost its vogue. Having been married to a bi-polar manic depressive for 22 years, I'd say that's more likely to be it.

My point is that, today, we recognize instantly what a Joseph Kony or a Jim Jones or a David Koresh is... ...hardly anyone we'd recognize as the connection between the Divine and humankind. When will the vast majority of Muslims connect the dots and recognize the mental disconnect between their veneration for Mohammed and Islam and their desire to be decent human beings.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at January 24, 2006 11:10 AM

Building bridges requires that the footings on both sides of the span are on solid ground. Otherwise the span becomes a plank suspended over the abyss. The Archbishop of Canterbury has perhaps forgotten this principle. Maybe he likes the feeling of standing in the limelight, receiving applause, going back for the curtain call. It's all a matter of finding the right audience, isn't it? "Man they loved me in Pakistan. I just 'killed' in Pakistan."

The Archbishop graciously assumes on behalf of the West the burden of an "unforgiveable" wrong. Thanks, but he really should not have, not on my behalf anyway. Does he forget the words of his putative Lord, who states that all sins will be forgiven, except blasphemies against the Holy Spirit? Yes, sincere Christians are conflicted about violence, ranging from positions of absolute pacifism to theories of "Just War." This latter theory is the one at play in the history of the Crusades. In my opinion, the Crusades are only to be faulted insofar as they may have resembled Islamic jihad's gleefulness is murder, theft and rapine. But the rise of the orders of warrior monks, at least in their first years, puts the lie to the notion that the Crusades were solely a land grab.

No, your Eminence, I think that the West can be forgiven the Crusades, given a sincere desire to avoid any injustices perpetrated at that time as a result. In the mean time, your colleague in Rome has recently commented on Islam's inability to reform. So as you are accepting your accolades from the snake pit (Hmmm, where's the applause coming from?), remember that the snakes will never accept to having acted in any way other than perfectly in accord with their book. Their history and virtue and outrage are as intact today as they were way back then. And until such time as they put that mindset down, snakes they remain.

Posted by: Chatillon at January 24, 2006 12:40 PM

Hello all,

Chatillon, I'm sure if I was christian I would echo the same sentiments that you have, except I would have been more forgiving....I mean we are all human after all.

One thing I did think about though, .....if the crusaders didn't come all those fateful years ago to the holy land....it is likely that the whole world would already be muslim.

Your name may have been Muhammed Chatillon and you too would have been a muslim....just imagine the impossible...

the world would be at Peace....what do you think?

Posted by: Naseem at January 24, 2006 1:13 PM

Building bridges requires that the footings on both sides of the span are on solid ground. Otherwise the span becomes a plank suspended over the abyss.

Very true. Other pertinent and impertinent plank-related Islamonuggets might include: "take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s", and, less charitably, "thick as two short planks", or, when patience runs out, "walk the plank".

This Archdruid (as Granny W calls him) is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Posted by: Interested at January 24, 2006 1:21 PM

Your name may have been Muhammed Chatillon

"Might have been", not "may have been". In the context of Islam this distinction, often seen as pedantic, takes on a particular significance.

Posted by: Interested at January 24, 2006 1:24 PM

Naseem the oblivious Muslim machine spits out a punch card:

it is likely that the whole world would already be muslim... the world would be at Peace....what do you think?

In a world populated only by Muslims (G-d forbid), Shia-controlled regions and Sunni-controlled regions would be waging eternal war... kidnapping, enslaving, and beheading one another.

More tragically, there would have been no Louis Armstrong to sing "What a Wonderful World".

Posted by: Charles Martel at January 24, 2006 1:40 PM

Hello all,

Interested....I am so glad that you are "interested" in my words... I now know that my English ( I also speak, Urdu, Punjabi and some Hindi) will improve so much....all the better for me to blend in when seeing my son in the UK.

Charles Achmed (for there would have been no Martel) says " In a world populated only by Muslims (G-d forbid), Shia-controlled regions and Sunni-controlled regions would be waging eternal war"....naaah don't you believe it, Just like there was no division during Mohd (pubh) , the Kalipah would not allow such division.

Charles also says "More tragically, there would have been no Louis Armstrong to sing "What a Wonderful World".

Forget about Louis Armstrong.....we have some wonderful Nasheeds (ballard singers), check out the link below:

http://www.islamrocks.com/nasheeds/talib-al-habib.shtml

Posted by: Naseem at January 24, 2006 1:54 PM

... for as you can see we (Moslems) have no such problem with Islam.

Apostate! By the command of God, you must be decapitated for the crime of subverting God's sacred word and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet. Thou hath shatteth upon the most holy and sacred scriptures.

Take three steps back with your left hand clearly visible above your head!

MORE KORANS MORE HADITHS MORE SIRATS MORE MOSLEMS MORE ISLAM MO MO!

And kill them (infidels) wherever you find and catch them.
--- God in Koran 2.191

Killing infidels is a small matter to us.
--- Mohammed in Tabari 9.69

The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: "Kill! Kill! Kill!"
--- Tabari 8.141

The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive.
--- Bukhari V5B59N512

Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing.
--- Mohammed in Ishaq 489

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 24, 2006 2:10 PM

France is holding a demonstration against its dhimmi politicians and loony Left supporters, a demonstration organized to express disgust at the government and media for covering up the attack on 600 train passengers by a mob of rampaging Muslims on the rails from Lyon to Nice, Jan. 1 this year. Enough is enough.

In support of them, and to meet each other face to face to begin organizing our own resistence we are also donning blue scarves on Jan. 26, Thursday.

T-ham, Volatire, and I are showing up at our respective McDonald's diners from 7-9:00 pm to sit and wait and greet anyone who shows up. Today we're pleased to announce that Baltic Waves will also join us.

There's no great feat involved here. All we ask is that you go to the most public of public places and wear a blue scarf in solidarity with those who are fed-up with Islam in our world. You can do the same in your town or city. There is a McDonald's near you, it's certain. Stand up for Human rights by sitting down for a few hours on Thursday evening. Wear a blue scarf. Meet some friends and chat them up. Baltic Waves writes:

Anyone for Park Ridge, IL on Northwest Hwy /or on Rt 14, in Cary IL (across from the Jewel)?

Posted by: sonofwalker at January 24, 2006 2:37 PM

Hi Naseem:

If I may respond to some of your comments

"...if I was christian I would echo the same sentiments that you have, except I would have been more forgiving."

By all means, be more forgiving. Set an example for forgiveness that puts me to shame. Indeed, spread the word of forgiveness throughout your community. And while you're at it, set new standards for tolerance, tolerance recognizable as such by the tolerated. Show the world that history doesn't burden the Ummah and prevent its redemption for historical misdeeds. Start in Pakistan, with your own minorities, Christian and others. Let forgiveness and tolerance spread to other Islamic lands. Forgive believers who don't believe Mohammed. Let church bells ring in Mecca under the protection of your forgiveness and tolerance.

"...it is likely that the whole world would already be muslim."

If you mean to say that, in the absence of armed resistance, Muslim conquest would have been inevitable, I can only respond that you have the knack of stating the obvious my dear. Most folks are easier to subdue when they're dead.

"... you too would have been a muslim....just imagine the impossible..."

I sometimes do wonder how I would behave, being forced to choose between outwardly espousing Islam or enjoying life under Muslim protection, as one of the "People of the Book." The first thing I would miss in either case would be our conversations. As a Muslim I would never address a woman (you are a lady, aren't you?) as party in a debate: women are far too feeble-minded. As a dhimmi, I would never dare address any Muslim at all as party in a debate if I was at all attached to the notion of having my head attached to my shoulders.

But history, so far, has not decided this issue for me. I still have a choice and I reckon it just wouldn't work out, me going over to Islam. Perhaps like other posters on this site, I started with some questions about Islam and found coherent, ingenuous discussion of these questions hard to come by. I then re-examined the mores and values handed down to me. They were small treasures, not at all ostentatious, but they compare favorably to anything I've heard anyone say about Islam. While all humans are created equal, the same cannot be said for ideologies. And perhaps Islam is more a brain fever than an ideology at that. I choose not to be infected.

"...the world would be at Peace....what do you think?"

If the world were Muslim tomorrow, I think it would soon enough be at war again. Within 50 years of Mohammed's death the Ummah had two civil wars. And then there is the burden Islam would have of supressing mankind's natural desire to exercise free will.

You see Naseem, morality can only be embraced through the exercise of free will, not through compulsion. I am not arguing for the absence of law. Legal systems based upon the rights of one individual ending at tip of their neighbor's nose are the only ones we have with any hope for justice on this earth. Such systems allow individuals to use their conscience in running their life while providing clear enough limits on behavior.

"Conscience" is a concept that has a hard time in shame cultures, where the fault in any deed is more in being caught out in it than in committing it per se. But where is the virtue in Sharia? If Sharia simply said something like "An eye for an eye," one could say there was some value. But instead it applies harsh penalties, amputations, stonings, beheadings for infractions that frequently are disproportionately less than the punishment or a matter of morality or belief. Muslims consistently conflate the concept of "submission" with "compulsion" ("Hey! C'mere. Let me help you to submit. Hehhehheh").

Religion in the West is a matter of conscience, between the Creator and the creature. In Islam, religion is a matter of compulsion, between the prisoner and the executioner.

Would you call that peace? I wouldn't. It is certainly submission, but not the submission brought about through humility and personal acceptance. It is the Islamic submission of conquest and compulsion. You may keep it for yourself, if you like, but I hope better for you. Good luck.

Posted by: Chatillon at January 24, 2006 3:35 PM

Caveat emptor. If Muslims want to build bridges it is only so they can have access to invade the country they're building the bridges to. And they will probably want that country's residents to build the bridges for them.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at January 24, 2006 3:46 PM

What does islam say about Christians?

Check it out here. (see Intolerance)
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Allah will mock Christians when they burn in Hell, asking them Where are the partners (e.g., Jesus) now? (40:73, 28:62-64).

9:29-9:35 (Final Policy). Christians are polytheists/disbelievers who must be converted, subjugated (dhimmi status), or else they must be killed. Muslims who fail to carry out this policy will go to hell (Sura 9).

24:62. Only the true believers believe in Allah and the messenger.

30:12-16 says Christians on the Last Day will be divided among those who believe in Islam versus those who do not. Those who do not will go to hell.

Christians and Jews who fail to convert to Islam: 9:29: “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by his messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay tribute readily, being brought low...”

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

They (people of the book) disbelieve in Allah and confound truth with falsehood (3:70-3:71). Christians lie when they talk about the son of God (18:4-5). Christians are disbelievers because they say Jesus is God, son of Mary (5:17).

Jesus taught them compassion and mercy in the Gospels, but Christians turned to monasticism…many of them are evil-livers (57:27).

Christians and Jews condemned to hell/cursed/doomed/bad/evil/turned into swine or apes, etc. (2:61, 4:48, 4:50, 4:116, 4:47-52, 4:55, 4:157, 4:160, 5:12-5:13, 5:37, 5:51, 5:53, 5:59-60, 5:72-73, 5:79, 9:29-35, 18:52, 33:26, 59:14, 98:1).

Must convert to Allah only, or else be doomed (2:62-65, 3:85). Note that 3:85 refers explicitly to the Islamic religion as the “Surrender.” Jews are wrong-doers who will face a painful doom unless they believe in Allah (4:160-161).He who ascribes partners to Allah is lost, as if a bird has snatched him out of the air and taken him away (22:31).

Expulsion of Jews and Christians From the Arabian Peninsula.

Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4366: Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:"Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: 'I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.'"

Priests and Rabbis do “evil work” (5:63).
Some of them (people of the scripture) are believers, but most of them are evil-livers (3:110), wretchedness is upon them because they disbelieved, slew the prophets wrongfully, were rebellious and transgressed (3:112).

Muslims won’t get hurt fighting them (the people of the book), who will turn and flee and afterwards will not be helped (3:111)

The Jews and Christians flung the scripture behind their backs and gained evil (3:187)

Christians and Jews who disbelieve scripture are the worst creatures in Allah’s sight (98:6) and will receive hell-fire.

Posted by: Archimedes at January 24, 2006 4:09 PM

I wonder what a phone book would look like in a muslim world? The column for Mohamed Mahmad Mahmhod Mahmet Mohammed Mohammad... They would need several books just for the M's.

Like George Forman naming all his children George Forman, even his girls. It must get confusing. When a man has four wives and they all name their first born boy Mohammad does he have four children with that name or a variant thereof? First name and last. It sure seems like it. Insanity reigns.

Posted by: Borg at January 24, 2006 4:14 PM

How can they build bridges when Mohammad burned all the bridges in Suras 5, 9, etc.?

Posted by: Archimedes at January 24, 2006 4:18 PM

The Muslim apologists for Islam dish out, and the non-Muslim willing apologists for Islam gratefully accept, a ghastly gallimaufry of nonsense, and then those non-Muslims come back Oliver-Twise-like requesting "More, please, sir."

This kind of building of "bridges" requires, I'm afraid, a willing suspension -- of disbelief.

Posted by: Hugh at January 24, 2006 4:38 PM

Archduke, from the Lewis thread:

"Prince Charles will open the Festival of Muslim Cultures in Sheffield tomorrow and over the next 18 months events will take place across the country to promote understanding of the Islamic faith."

18 months of state-funded pro-Islam propaganda!

Posted by: Archimedes at January 24, 2006 5:27 PM

Rowan Williams is a good man, in himself. And a very learned one. Which is his strength, and also his weakness. He seems to find it hard to realise bad in others. His studies mean he has less experience of evil than other archbishops. Dr Carey, who is able to say in retirement things I wish he could have said while "in harness" grew up in East London and still has a good pastoral touch. I greatly admire the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, who wrestled with evil up close and personal in Uganda, in the shape of Idi Amin.

But for the Anglican Church really getting to grips with the problem I cannot recommend The Barnabas Fund highly enough http://www.barnabasfund.org/ (site now available in Russian)
And the publication Islam in Britain is still available at the web price of £5.99 + p&p@ 95p.
http://www.barnabasfund.org/islaminbritain.htm

BTW I see that todays duty officer in the collective that names itself Naseem is the one with English as a second language O-level.
"I now know that my English ( I also speak, Urdu, Punjabi and some Hindi) will improve so much" Improved overnight in fact, must be one of the miracles Mohammed never managed.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at January 24, 2006 5:58 PM

Why would you want to build a bridge to Hell?

And does this ecumenical clown understand that the real Jesus worships Allah and is lower than Mohammad?

Or has the old blighter already 'reverted', secretly?

Give him some porridge and a demotion to a bishopric in the village of Cocks.

Posted by: profitsbeard at January 24, 2006 7:10 PM

More Churchillian resolve from Blair

FIRST LIVINGSTONE-NOW THE PRIME MINISTER

Prime Minister Tony Blair led tributes to the influential Muslim cleric Dr Zaki Badawi, who died on Monday.

Mr Blair said the religious leader was a "wonderful mixture of the spiritual and the practical" who dedicated his life to the service of his faith.

http://uppompeii.blogspot.com/

This Badawi is the same who cautioned Prince Charles from taking sides on wether apostates of islam should be executed.

Posted by: DP111 at January 24, 2006 7:30 PM

Rally against Islamofacism - Feb.1 nationwide - Group demands Muslim Nazism be documented by Holocaust museum

January 24, 2006
Efforts Against Islamo-Fascism and Muslim Anti-Semitism

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1575

Posted by: DP111 at January 24, 2006 7:48 PM

I think that Archbishop Ronan Williams knows full well the nasty secret of islam, however he is constrained by his role as head of the established Church ie he has to follow PM Blair's advice when addressing islamic topics.

Posted by: DP111 at January 24, 2006 7:51 PM

The Governments of the world should know that Islam cannot be defeated. Islam will be victorious in all countries of the world and Islam and the teachings of the Qur'an will prevail all over the world." (Ayatollah Khomeini)

Such statements by Khomeini and many muslims, make it hard for muslims in the West to persuade free people that their religion islam, is misunderstood.

There is no misunderstanding whatever. In fact all these expos and inter-faith gatherings, are actually increasing the level of misunderstanding.

Posted by: DP111 at January 24, 2006 8:06 PM

Are these people going to paper over the Qur'anic passages calling for the mass slaughtering of the world's 'infidels' (non-Muslims)??? Yes??? Oh!

So much for educating the masses!

Posted by: pythagoras at January 24, 2006 8:15 PM

The Church of England's leadership hasn't by and large believed in anything Christian for the last 40 years. One of the few remaining scholars and bishops who actually believes in Christianity is N.T. Wright. Wright's work as a leading, if not THE leading scholar in the Quest for the Historical Jesus amounts to a major apologetic for Christianity. (See his, The NT and the People of God, Jesus and the Victory of God, The Resurrection of the Son of God. Warning: These are not small works and are not light reading.)

All of Europe's major Christian traditions are a wisp of what they used to be because they long ago tossed away Christian belief for various philosophical trends (Hegelianism, Existentialism, etc.) or political causes (marxism) expressed using Christian terms. They are men without chests, as C.S. Lewis once wrote.

This is why the Episcopal Church in the US is at 2 mill members and dropping. 50 years ago, they had 9 million members or so. All of the mainline Protestant denomiantions, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist are and have been dying on the vine because they have no life in them-they have ceased to be Christian. They have nothing to offer or at least nothing different than secular Leftist causes offer. They have the outward form, but none of the power thereof. I know, I was raised in the Episcopal Church. Don't expect any help in the Crusade from them.

What Europe needs to figure out is that you can't fight something with nothing. Even if you stop Muslims from coming in, you will still have Muslims making converts. Christianity is in a far better position to compete in a fair and open society than Islam is. Christianity has weathered the intellctual currents of the Enlightenment but Islam has no experience with it. Muslim apologetics are about as sophisticated as what the local Jehovahs' Witness passes out.

If someone would translate some basic Enlightenment tracts, selections from Kant or David Hume's Dialogs concerning natural Religion into Arabic or Urdu you could easily soften and disperse the muslims in Europe. If European professors would use the hammer and tongs on Islam that they did on Christianity, things would change.

Posted by: American_Palamite at January 24, 2006 8:36 PM

It sounds like this Dr. Rowan Williams is a muslim in disguise, or just an idiot who has never read a bible or a Koran.

Where do these people crawl out from under?

We don't need to quote the koran to prove what Islam really is, they have proved it throughout history by their actions, and they continue to do so today all over the world.

That this imbecile would even admit publicly his obvious ignorance as to what the 2 papal decreed crusades were about (the third never really got off the ground) is proof enough of his lack of education, and allegiance to Islam.

Posted by: Mullahmasher at January 25, 2006 3:36 AM

I was on holiday in October. I walked into the village church, where I had never worshipped before, for Holy Communion. The vicar said during the sermon, "the Koran may contain the odd pearl of wisdom but never forget, it is not the word of God." And later (not solely on the subject of Islam) " It is our right, indeed our duty, to remind our politicians and our Bishops when they get things wrong, as being human they may".
Needless to say, when I am next in that area, that's where I will go.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at January 25, 2006 4:04 AM

"Chatillon, I'm sure if I was christian I would echo the same sentiments that you have, except I would have been more forgiving....I mean we are all human after all.
One thing I did think about though, .....if the crusaders didn't come all those fateful years ago to the holy land....it is likely that the whole world would already be muslim.
Your name may have been Muhammed Chatillon and you too would have been a muslim....just imagine the impossible...
the world would be at Peace....what do you think?
Posted by: Naseem

Not a chance. Islam has another inherent problem it cannot overcome.
Once Islam conquers and destroys a civilization and erases it's culture, devours it wealth or "booty", Islam stagnates and dies. Then the culture it devoured re-emerges, and begins to florish once again. Another Caliph from another region shows up and destroys it again. Then there was always the rivalry of who should be Caliph.

The history of the Caliphs shows this happening over and over again. When Islam isn't at war with the infidel, it's at war with itself. There is never peace in Islam, there never was and never will be until Islam and it's rock god and pedophile pervert prophet are destroyed once and for all.
War within Islam began even before Muhammad died, and Islam became even more fractured and at war with itself after he died. Islam was never at peace and never will be, even if the whole world was Islam.

So dream on.

Allah rock-bar

Posted by: Mullahmasher at January 25, 2006 4:16 AM

Hello all,

American Palamite says "All of the mainline Protestant denomiantions, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist are and have been dying on the vine because they have no life in them-they have ceased to be Christian".

I have two questions here!

I know that Protestants came along when Henry the VIII decided he wanted an heir & more than 1 wife (Hmmm, wonder where he heard that from) and split with the Catholic church in Rome but still:

1) Why are there so many Protestant denomiantions, and does the queen recognise them all?

2) How have they ceased being christians? Surely simply not going to church does not make you less christian? Why has interest in christinity waned so?

On a personal note if I were christian I would be appaled, disgraced & angered by Bill Ronan's stance and approach.

He doesn't look the part, he doesn't speak the part....he has made the position of Archbishop common as muck.

And the worst thing...the worst... is for him to grossly insult your forefathers who paid the ultimate price....some of you who are reading this now..(Granny) may well have had forefathers in those battles...that they were wrong is being said by the head of the church....you have to seriously question Bill Ronan's beliefs...because they probably are not christian ( but I am no expert on this and am willing to be corrected).

You also say "Christianity is in a far better position to compete in a fair and open society than Islam is"......and the trick to ....eh eh?

Chatillion says "Let church bells ring in Mecca under the protection of your forgiveness and tolerance".

On a personal basis I see little wrong here...
my daughter has some friends at Lahore Uni who are christian. They have come to my house with her and we have had some discussions ....until my daughter ends it....."mum, you have hijacked my friends for yourself...we want to chill".....but her friends say I'm cool.....

Still I think I talk too much....

Posted by: Naseem at January 25, 2006 5:10 AM

Charles Achmed (for there would have been no Martel) says " In a world populated only by Muslims (G-d forbid), Shia-controlled regions and Sunni-controlled regions would be waging eternal war"....naaah don't you believe it, Just like there was no division during
Mohd(pee be on him) , the Kalipah would not allow such division.

Posted by: Naseem

You are a terrible liar, Naseem. But that is the muslim way.

What about the battle of Badr? the Battle of Yamama?
The Caliphs were constantly killing each other. Read your cults history. Wars between Shiites, Wahabbi's Sunni have been going on before and ever since Muhammad the pedophile died.

Posted by: Mullahmasher at January 25, 2006 5:27 AM

Still I think I talk too much....

Posted by: Naseem

Indeed.

You really don't understand what a Christian is, do you. The "church" is you, and the gospel is word of Christ which you should follow. Churches are simply gathering places where one might hear the gospel of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Don't worry yourself with the different politics of churches. All that matters is that you follow the gospel.

But, were aren't here to worry about Christianity. It's Islam that is the problem in this world. the Koran is a corrupt, mispelled, contradictory work of grade 6 students (smart for a muslim I guess) which tells it's followers to kill, steal, rape, lie. That's Satans bible.
"allah isn't the same as God of the Gospels and Bible.

Allah doesn't even mean "god' the word for god is ilah. Allah is a contraction of al-ilah (the god) you god of the koran has a name, its Ar Rahman. "Allah" was what the pagan rock worshiping Arabs called their rock god and his rock daughters, Al Uzza, Al Lat, And Manat which they kept in the rock god temple the Ka'aba.
A pile of un hewn rocks without a roof that you now call 'allah's house' LMAO! that's some house for a God who created the world, don't you think?

That black rock in the side of it is actually your "allah' rock god.

You should read your "scripture" sometime. it's all in there. Maybe that's why your Imam's don't want muslims to read it.

Posted by: Mullahmasher at January 25, 2006 5:47 AM

I see that the entity collectivly named Naseem has changed attitudes and presumably duty poster overnight.

on January 24, 2006 06:17 AM Naseem said
I really love this guy...Dr. Rowan Williams.

Less than 24 hours later on January 25, 2006 05:10 AM Naseem can no longer even get the Archbishop of Canterbuy's name right. Bill Ronan indeed.

I'm not as green as I'm cabbage looking Naseems, however many of you there are. I think Mullahmasher has summed up my own opinion nicely.

You talk too much, you write too much, and given enough rope you will hang yourself.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at January 25, 2006 6:48 AM

Chattilon:

Great reply to Naseem, who still can't quite understand that although Muslims are indeed numerous -- 20% of the global pop and rising, they are also, by and large, the most undeveloped, illiterate and strife-torn nations, constantly demanding alms from the rest of the world.

Muslim nations shriek about their oil wealth (for what other wealth have they) being stolen from them. Their wealth is indeed being stolen, but not by the developed nations, but rather by the ruling elites of their own nations. And how they belly-ache over their wounded pride. Really great potential for global leadership and peace. Pfewwy!

Posted by: waterdragon52 at January 25, 2006 8:21 AM

"Muslim nations shriek about their oil wealth (for what other wealth have they) being stolen from them. Their wealth is indeed being stolen, but not by the developed nations, but rather by the ruling elites of their own nations. And how they belly-ache over their wounded pride. Really great potential for global leadership and peace. Pfewwy!
Posted by: waterdragon52

This is proof that islam causes atrophy of the brain. For some reason, muslims can't do math, and understand that their oil would still be sitting in the ground, worthless if it wasn't for westerners coming along with western technology and drilling the wells, and building the infrastructure to turn it into gas and other petroleum products.

If it wasn't for western countries BUYING that very same oil from them, they would have no wealth at all.

Unfortunately for Muslims, they sit in dirt houses in the desert herding goats (and making out with them too) just as they did 1400 years ago. They blame their poverty and ignorance on the west, While the Mullah Mafia, dripping with gold chains in worse fashion than Mr.T, and driving the most expensive cars, all bought from the oil money they control, tell these ignorant illiterate desert monkeys that their misery is all the west's fault, that they are "stealing" their oil wealth.

From birth, they have these poor simpletons brainwashed into Islam, never giving them a chance to first learn to read, write, or use math. No- they are given a Koran, written in a language they neither can speak, or read, and make to recite it, never knowing the meaning of what they are reciting, or even knowing if they are holding the koran right side up.

Although Muslims are born like anyone else in the world, with a mind, at first they are happy and playful, inquisitive and anxious to learn, that is until the brainwashing of Islam takes hold. by the time they emerge from Koran recital school, where they are punished (and sometimes sexually abused by pedophile Imams) until they can recite the entire koran.

This makes the parents very happy, having a child that can recite the koran. it doesn't matter that the child cannot read and write, or even tie his shoes, only that he can recite the Koran, and is now qualified to be a entry level Imam when he grows up.

The child emerges from this experience completely different than when he went in. He is now listless and dull, never smiling and has cold dead eyes. He may go on to learn to read and right after this, but islam has taken hold of his mind, and has now began to atrophy it.

It takes alot to make a muslim see the truth about Islam, and to get them to recognize how ridiculous and full of lies the Koran and the rest of Islam is.
The shock value is 1000 times worse than when a western kid finds out for the first time that there really isn't a santa claus or easter bunny.

Posted by: Mullahmasher at January 25, 2006 9:00 AM

"Forget about Louis Armstrong." ~ Naseem

Racist! But then muslims ARE racists (their dirty not so little secret).

Posted by: Rick at January 25, 2006 9:18 AM

Hi Naseem:

In your last posting, you declare that you on a personal basis see little wrong with church bells in Mecca (I'm assuming that your approval includes the churches and church worshipers to go with the bells, etc.). You also describe your daughter's friendship with Christian girls and that seems nice and normal enough. But then you end your note with a comment: "Still I think I talk too much..." What does that comment mean? Second thoughts? Nervousness?

If your words are meant to sound fair to a certain group --for instance to the individuals frequenting this website-- but are not addressed to the group where such words really need to be heard --such as the Muslim community where you reside-- then I would have to say the difference between you and Dr. Williams becomes blurred in my eyes.

Both of you would then seem to be performing in front of audiences with their own established view points and you would both be speaking simply for the sake of pleasing one's personal agenda, the audience's inclinations or both. You yourself already know that I do not agree with Dr. Williams' comments on the Crusades, but if he has an issue with historical events that he believes Christendom should consider, then let him speak clearly to his flock and let him listen with open ears and heart to their response. Likewise, if you truly believe that the Ummah should start acting charitably towards minorities, permitting true religious freedom throughout the Muslim world, then you are obliged to make this a real issue with your correligionists and make it happen. I think they will engage you in this debate with great vigor.

Any failure on your part to genuinely reflect on past history would in my opinion put you in the same company as Dr. Williams: At best your hearts are in the right place, but your heads are not. It is then possible that you do indeed talk too much. Maybe you should then read more widely and listen with open eyes and heart to those you with whom do not agree. If your aim is to dissemble and muddy the waters, then Granny W may be entirely correct in her observation that you are not who you pretend to be. I would cry myself to sleep if I found this to actually be true. I would be desolate, perhaps crying aloud: "It seems that my Naseem is Naseems, a collective, a hive of personalities working to deceive me. What is her real name? Legion?"

Melodramatic, Eh?

Posted by: Chatillon at January 25, 2006 10:21 AM

Hello all,

Chatillon...Ahh so nice of you to say the things that you ...lovely to chat to you.

Now some of the points. Despite what Granny & some of the others say..... I am NOT a collective.... I am Naseem...one 40+ female Ahmadi muslim in Lahore, Pak.

You say "Any failure on your part to genuinely reflect on past history would in my opinion put you in the same company as Dr. Williams: At best your hearts are in the right place, but your heads are not".

I am afraid that I cannot agree with that. Dr Williams can say something..and may get villified but would keep his head...the same cannot be said for me. The position of a woman in Pak (saying something contraversial) is delicate ....the position of an Ahmadi woman (particularly in Pak) is virtually non-existant.

Do you realise my dear Chatillion that I take a risk every time I post here. If my comments were to be scrutinised (& probably if JW technical staff were to "shop" me, but I am not so worried about that...I think it would cause an outrage here...loss of privacy & all that) & were deemed to be contrary to Islam .....I could be in prison for 3 years minimum with no chance of amnesty...this is curteosy of Zia Ul Haq who took away our status & dignity e.g. We cannot bury our dead in a muslim cemetry for example...we have to have our own as we may pollute.

But I have to put that to one side...look above the danger and put my real feeling into this forum and they are that ...I wouldn't really mind church bells around...as long as they posed little danger to the local community.....however that is different from me shouting this from the rooftops ...bacause there wouldn't be a head there which would be shouting for very long...and I could endanger my family...and currently I am not prepared to do that. I'm afraid that a lot of the postees don't appreciate (or much care about that).

So why am I here (in Pak)....well I got married and been here for a couple of decades...things were better before....and you cannot have everything in life.

There are many army types around where I live, they get the pick of land, sites...and you have to be careful...and then more careful on what you say & to whom...Ahmadis are not the Sunni's favourite "Infidels".

Having said all that I like being an Ahmadi...together with peddlling the softer side of Islam....it kinda fits neatly ...which is why conversion is not really an option for me.

You say "you are obliged to make this a real issue with your correligionists and make it happen".

Well I do that ...sometimes... I push the boat out and ask people to bear with me and consider hypothetical situations ...and ofcourse we have been in some heated arguments...but you have to be careful.

I remember some Ahmadis ...getting injured locally ...and police just waving the complaints away....but this is part of the corruption in Pakistan ...and not so much to do with Ahmadi Islam...you know what I mean.

And as for me talking too much...everybody on this site seems to think that....it has little to do with me being scared.

And as for me supporting Islam getting global domination...as long as the Ahmadi viewpoint is the one that get's there in the end....then that's a reasonable compromise.

Posted by: Naseem at January 25, 2006 11:36 AM

People, even if there was a bridge between Christians and Muslims, the Islamofeces would just bomb it anyway.
Nazz, good to see that you're still on the sinking ship Islam. May the prophet be your life preserver!!! Glub, glub, glub.

Posted by: Ironman Hondo at January 25, 2006 11:50 AM

I'm not as green as I'm cabbage looking

Wonderful expression, Granny W. Naseem gives itself away in the variable quality of its English and the inconsistency of its mistakes. It may be a collective, a brace of Naseems, but I think it is one person, who is actually reasonably bright and writes fluently, and often, but not always remembers to "dumb down".

It is best ignored.

Posted by: Interested at January 25, 2006 12:56 PM

It is true that none suffer so much as the believing (in Islam) women. And the poor lamb who said that had cause to know.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at January 25, 2006 1:08 PM

'I remember some Ahmadis ...getting injured locally ...and police just waving the complaints away....but this is part of the corruption in Pakistan ...and not so much to do with Ahmadi Islam...you know what I mean.'
~~~~
But wait, Pakistan is the pure, perfect Islamic place... Islam everywhere but it never gets the blame. Everything is islamic but islam has nothing to do with anything that is not good. "Utopia" in action. The perfect imperfect world.

'We cannot bury our dead in a muslim cemetry for example...we have to have our own as we may pollute.'
~~~~
This is just sad. That muslims believe that another's thoughts in life would pollute a cemetary. How can a thought pollute the ground? It can't. It's just another form of humiliation to punish those outside the "group think". Even bowing to the same book isn't enough there.

Posted by: Borg at January 27, 2006 10:57 PM

And it is true there will never be peace in islam. Because people are not the same and there will always be someone trying to force someone to be more 'pure'. It's a faith(if it can be called that) that started with fighting and has always been fighting. Mo was a warrior, Aisha became a warrior, all the companions were warriors and there will be fighting within the groups even if all people in the world turn to islam. Of course islamic ideaology won't get the blame then either. And by then no one will be allowed to discuss the problems like they can now.

Posted by: Borg at January 27, 2006 11:06 PM