They should be careful. If Hamza gets his way, there will be no more bars, and therefore, no more "priest/vicar and a rabbi" jokes.

Ayatollah Khomeni said it himself-- there's no fun in Islam.

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 28, 2006 11:20 AM

Who are these Holy Men to volunteer us for suicide?

If you're a rabbi or a priest and you're fence post stupid, well, then make like a fence post and keep your worthless mouth shut.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 28, 2006 11:30 AM

You just have to wonder how these guys dress themselves in the morning...they are obviously mentally impaired. Just because a jihadist can offer him tea, he must be really nice and no threat.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at January 28, 2006 11:31 AM

I saw the report about these character witnesses within some of the BBC items already posted on this site. I my first thoughts were "talk about damning with faint praise" and the old joke about the curates egg "good in parts".
But they are literaly damning him with faint praise. If they were witness summonsed by the defence they HAVE to appear. If "made me a cup of tea" or "treated me like a normal human being" is the best they can truthfully say, we can't really accuse them of dhimmitude. And in the absence of any better witnesses for the defence Hamza really hasn't got much of a defence.
I have said this once already today, I'll say it again, lets wait for Hughes J to sum up before we get too excited.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at January 28, 2006 11:32 AM

Sorry, I got distracted while inserting the html. I wasn't intending to shout at everybody.
I saw the report about these character witnesses within some of the BBC items already posted on this site. I my first thoughts were "talk about damning with faint praise" and the old joke about the curates egg "good in parts".
But they are literally damning him with faint praise. If they were witness summonsed by the defence they HAVE to appear. If "made me a cup of tea" or "treated me like a normal human being" is the best they can truthfully say, we can't really accuse them of dhimmitude. And in the absence of any better witnesses for the defence Hamza really hasn't got much of a defence.
I have said this once already today, I'll say it again, lets wait for Hughes J to sum up before we get too excited.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at January 28, 2006 11:34 AM

I am so ashamed.

But then again, I remember when I was ignorant of Islam.

Knowledge is hope.

Posted by: Shy Guy at January 28, 2006 11:47 AM

"He offered me tea" What a humanitarian!! I heard that Al Capone once offered Elliot Ness a cigarette. Capone must not have been in the mob.

Posted by: GFB at January 28, 2006 12:18 PM

GrannyW - my first thought too. The defence is clutching at straws here.

Do you remember the spoof "review" in "1066 and All That"? Trying desperately to find a quote that wasn't damning, they came up with "This slim volume..."

I was also put in mind of the Monty Python sketch, based on the notorious Kray Twins: "Dinsdale, he was a laavley bloke, like a bravva to me. Used to buy his mavva flowers and that."

Posted by: Interested at January 28, 2006 12:18 PM

More than likely, every year you meet a charming person who may be a paedophile, a thief, a wifebeater or some other equally disgusting act. If they get caught, does that mean I should testify for them that when I met them, they were 'lovely.' What is the point, and why would I want to?

Posted by: John Sobieski at January 28, 2006 12:55 PM

Unfortunately, that's the way most people, including political and religious leaders, behave. People tend form opnions about another person based on their personal experience with that person. If the experience is good, then that person's views fade in the background. Jihadists always knew and exploited that trait; during the early conquests, they managed to build good relations with Orthodox patriarchs, and occasionally other local leaders, who then betrayed the populace, putting it at the mercy of conquerors. Abu Hamza just follows this time-honored tactic.

Posted by: Liggett at January 28, 2006 1:16 PM

Gee - ain't that wonderful - "He offered me a cup
of tea." As a matter of interest did he make it himself or was that the job of his obedient Muslim Missus? After all, Hitler served coffee and cakes at his retreat in Austria. Like Abu Hamza this proves nothing except both of them knew how to manipulate people such as these stupid clerics. The Jews who head many Leftist organizations around the world make me wonder if some have a 'Death Wish.' As for Anglicans re: that dipstick Rowan Williams. A Minister is supposed to DEFEND HIS FLOCK NOT ABANDON THEM TO THE WOLVES.

Posted by: Morgane at January 28, 2006 1:52 PM

A couple of shameless, idiotic clowns.

Posted by: US_infidel at January 28, 2006 2:06 PM

And the hangman gave in to the convict's last wish and offered him a cigarette. A minute later (10 years later? What's the difference?) he was mowed down by the bullets of the firing squad.
And they all lived happily ever after - here and there!

Posted by: Polish infideless at January 28, 2006 2:41 PM

I have a photo of Hitler petting a dog.

All is forgiven O' Fuhrer!

Posted by: profitsbeard at January 28, 2006 7:21 PM

Our holy men are oft forgiving and merciful, just like Allah.

Meanwhile, the Mohammedans are scheming and plotting....

'War is deceit', said Mohammed. 'Terror made me victorious...'

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at January 28, 2006 7:31 PM

Those two clerics should be hauled into a mental institution for being suicidldal.

The Priest I expected because the Anglican Church is the only church that still is mainstream anti-semitic (Even my Church the Greek Orthadox is mostly not anti-semitic, except for a small number of Islamochristians).

However the Rabbi I did not expect at all. He certainly is unique, and I certainly did not expect a jew would be immune to lessons of the past.

Posted by: NicephorusPhocas at January 28, 2006 9:34 PM

JC called his flock "sheep". Now we know why with bellweathers like these two.

Bad enough havbing a violent enemy without bleeding heart fools like these two

Does having a belief in a God often destroy the rational thought process?

Posted by: Zathras at January 28, 2006 10:07 PM

Does having a belief in a God often destroy the rational thought process?

No, but politics certainly does, and that's what has afflicted these two clergymen.

Politics, aside from its noble aspirations, is entangled with the emotional desire to belong, the ego's desire to be right, and the human tendency to react to overwhelming crises with denial (a.k.a. "spin").

Any human institution is going to have a political element, and any religion, on account of its human aspect, needs to be humble and open to the grace of God to cut through the crap.

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 28, 2006 10:49 PM

And the vicar of St Thomas's Church in Finsbury Park, Rev Stephen Coles, told the court how the pair met for the first time after the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington to promote "inter-religious dialogue".

He said: "We got on extremely well. He was very hospitable. He asked me if I wanted a cup of tea and he treated me like a normal human being."

Hmmm. Like a normal human being with two hook hands and a bad eye from playing with bombs. What a damned idiot the Vicar must be.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at January 29, 2006 9:24 PM

Try Googling for "Rabbi Joseph Goldstein" or even a Rabbi Goldstein in East London.

He's a cipher, a nobody, or perhaps part of Neturei Karta, the fringe anti-Zionist group of orthodox-LOOKING Jews who were caught taking bribes from Arafat.

This story stinks. And yet it is now part of the mainstream.

Posted by: Aaron's Rantblog at January 30, 2006 4:09 AM

Waterdragon52, sorry to be chasing you - not sure if you have seen my reply so it is here again:

Polish Infideless:

Not to make light, but there are still a few of us Ashkenazim left, although yes, very, very few of my relatives who didn't leave Poland prior to WW II survived. And life there was very brutal for the Polish peasant classes in the period leading up to the Nazi invasion.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at January 28, 2006 06:23 PM
Waterdragon52, are ther more than 52 of you left, mythological creatures ;-)? But seriously I am very happy that not all of you have perished and we still have a few left in Poland (and it is not only such legends like Dr. Marek Edelman, one of my heroes, but a flourishing new generation of Polish Jews, the reason for my great joy and hope! More and more of bar and bat mitzvas in Warsaw and Cracow's synagogues! Mazeltov! Long live Polish Jews!), but if you think about the hunderds of periodicals printed in Yiddish, the numerous writers of Yiddish (to name just the most famous ones like Aleykhem, Ash, Peretz - sorry i do not know the official English spelling of their names), the villages where you could hear Yoddish (in fact the second official language in Poland) and hardly any Polish, the vibrant Ashkenazi culture of the 10% of the Polish population then you wil realize that it seems like Atlantis, a mythical land we can only try to reconstuct like archeologists nowadays. Gone forever, never to enrich the melting pot of Polish-Lithuanian Duchy, wher various groups coexisted peacefully and contributed so much to the Polish heritage, and Jews were one of the greatest contributors. Not to mention those polonised, assimilated with Haskala's roots, whom we owe so much. Do you know that every Polish child learns his/her language from the poetry of 2 Polish-Jewish writers for children - Julian Tuwin and Jan Brzechwa (real name Lesman)? Every Polish child recites their poems, generation after generation till the end of the world! I will send you some links (in English)in a few minutes (so please come back) in case you can be bothered to visit them at your leisure - it is worth it - you would never guess how many of you, how much of your heritage is alive in my country.

Posted by: Polish infideless

Please do not be daunted - i have pre-warned you:
(some may come up in Polish - just look for the British flag to switch to the English version):

">">http://jewish.sites.warszawa.um.gov.pl/wstep.htm>
http://www.fzp.jewish.org.pl/
http://www.diapozytyw.pl/en/site/
">">http://www.jewishcem.waw.pl/index2.htm>
">">http://www.midrasz.pl/new/midrasz/>
> http://www.wort.prv.pl/
> http://www.lauder.pl/
http://warszawa.getto.pl/en/site/kalendarium/
> http://www.klezmer-hois.cracow.pl/index.html
> http://www.jewish.org.pl/index.php
> http://www.jewishfestival.pl/
> http://www.centrum-anielewicza.uw.edu.pl/
> http://www.shalom.org.pl/index.htm
> http://fzp.website.pl/
> http://www.historiazydow.edu.pl/
http://www.holocaustresearch.pl
> http://www.cyf-kr.edu.pl/~ufsitarz/unyidd.htm (Cracow's Yiddish Page)
> http://www.cyf-kr.edu.pl/~ufsitarz/proverb.htm
> http://www.cyf-kr.edu.pl/~ufsitarz/trewir.htm
> http://www.pardes.pl/
> http://www.schorr.edu.pl/
> http://www.beit-warszawa.org.pl/beit.htm
> http://www.historiazydow.edu.pl/linki.html
> http://www.ajcf.org/
> http://www.midrasz.home.pl/index.html
> http://www.teatr-zydowski.art.pl/index2.htm
> http://www.zydkolko.prv.pl/
> http://www.is-pol.org.il/
> http://pskorczak.webpark.pl/
> http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=Poland1939-1945
> http://www.dzieciholocaustu.org.pl/
> http://www.warsawjff.ant.pl/
> http://www.forum-znak.org.pl/?t=wydarzenia

Posted by: Polish infideless at January 30, 2006 4:38 AM

I've blogged the so-called "rabbi" story in detail.

Posted by: Aaron's Rantblog at January 30, 2006 5:48 AM

Holocaust Memorial Day celebrations in Poland:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4652996.stm

Posted by: Polish infideless at January 30, 2006 5:58 AM

"On Thursday, Holocaust survivors mixed with the young at the memorial to the victims of the Warsaw Ghetto.

The tram has the Star of David instead of a number

A 1940s tram marked with the Star of David - like the ones that used to travel through the ghetto - will be seen again on the streets of Warsaw on Friday.

It will be empty. Nobody will get on or off.

Before World War II, Warsaw was home to the largest Jewish community in the world outside New York. "

Posted by: Polish infideless at January 30, 2006 5:59 AM

This is why I don't follow "religious leaders." Who are these two jokes? It becomes apparent that rather fight, they'd rather "try to get along with their Islamic brother." Don't they know that this man would kill them without hesitation for Islam? Take their heads? And more importantly, He's not their brother!! Muslims are sworn enemies of Jews, Christians, and all non Muslims? I don't care how "innocent" they may present themselves!!!
Hamza is a viper. And there is no way that you can take such a snake into your confidence and not get bit!!! And a viper's poision is very potent, very deadly. Hamza's venom is Islam. Very deadly. But then, you'd think that the Rabbi Goldstein would know that. Not to worry, the Jews in Israel know this and the citizens of the London, that ride public transportation know this. And the citizens of the United states more than know this. Nuts to the religious leaders tha won't stand up against the poision that is Islam!!" One day "Your soul will be required!!!"

Posted by: Ironman Hondo at January 30, 2006 9:32 AM

Abu Hamza and his co-horts in UK Prisons: Read article:
EXCLUSIVE JAIL RUN BY AL-QAEDA Fanatic thugs in razor attacks on prisoners Inmates are ordered to take up Islamic faith Chapel used to groom gang for terrorism
By Greig Box

VIOLENT Islamic extremists are terrorising inmates at Britain's toughest jail with an iron fist as they trawl for al-Qaeda recruits.

The gang of thugs - known as The Muslim Boys - intimidate frightened inmates at Belmarsh into joining their faith, beating those who refuse their bullying demands.

Some bloodied victims have been slashed by razor blades attached to toothbrushes. Others have had boiling water hurled over them. Prisoners say they are in fear for their lives.

The brutal brotherhood - whose gang on the outside is the Yard's Public Enemy No 1 - also host weekly "religious" meetings where it is feared members are groomed for terrorism by al-Qaeda chiefs.

Watching guards are helpless to take action as they do not understand what is being said. Some have been attacked at the "services".

In a bid to break the network, leaders have been transferred to other jails. But others step into their shoes.

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The reign of terror is disclosed in a leaked report - seen by the Mirror - from Belmarsh's head of security.

Referring to a review in December, it declares: "Prisoners reported abuse, assaults, intimidation and threats. Some of the atrocities were carried out with impunity during associations causing victims to fear for their lives.

"Most of the perpetrators are believed to be members of the Muslim Boys gang who intensified their drive to recruit other prisoners to the fold.

"They force prisoners to accept the Muslim faith - those who refuse suffer assaults. They promise potential converts protection from other prisoners and staff who they challenge at every opportunity."

A source said: "These people are terrifying. Extreme Muslims are pulling together and the jail has experienced a surge in violence, drugs and intimidation.

"The Muslim Boys' gangmaster orders most of the assaults on fellow prisoners. They rule through fear and are very hard to infiltrate."

Security chiefs are most worried at the weekly seminars held by the gang in Belmarsh's multi-faith chapel.

Our source said: "Belmarsh has got a huge problem tackling the recruitment of terrorist cells.

"These people hold religious services every week. Around 125 Muslims attend and top members of al-Qaeda preach.

"None of the staff has a clue what they're talking about. Six officers attend each service, but all they can do is stand and watch.

"Those in the chapel could be planning a major terrorist attack but the officers wouldn't know.

"We can't even tape the service and get it translated because it is against Human Rights. It's frightening."

A former intelligence officer said last night: "This is extremely worrying. The degree of indoctrination in prison might be much higher and result in a recruit more dedicated to terrorism."

Category A Belmarsh, in South East London, holds Britain's most dangerous terror suspects.

They include the four men suspected of planning to bomb London and an inmate thought to be a "senior member of al-Qaeda in the UK".

The report details how one "prominent" inmate was seen becoming increasingly involved with Islam. It said: "He started attending Muslim services. In a phone conversation with his mother, he directed her to read some books that will convert her.

"He also associates with the Muslim Boys and took an active part in an assault on staff."

Two chiefs of the Muslim Boys were moved from the jail in December. Gangmaster 1 is now in Brixton. Gangmaster 2 is at Whitemoor jail, Cambs. He is serving life for murder.

The report discloses that officers fear they are losing control of Belmarsh which is awash with mobile phones and drugs. An astonishing 32 mobiles and 191 drugs were found at the jail between July and December.

Two prisoners with terror links were "perpetual" phone offenders.

Handsets are rented out with prisoners inserting their own Sim cards. A source at the jail said: "Officers are struggling to keep a lid on it."

The Brixton-based Muslim Boys are London's most feared gang.

They are said to carry out forced conversions at gunpoint and are thought to be behind at least two executions, violent robberies, attempted murders and drug deals.

The Prison Service said last night: "We don't comment on leaked documents. Each prison has an anti-bullying strategy. Prison governors also ensure any sign of radicalisation is vigorously challenged."

COMPULSORY ID cards would have only "limited value" in the fight against terrorism, Lord Carlile the Government's reviewer of anti-terror laws admitted yesterday.

greig.box@mirror.co.uk

VOICE OF THE MIRROR: PAGE 6

GANGMASTER 1

'An extensive custodial history of drugs, assaults and threats of assaults to both staff and fellow prisoners. Members of his gang intimidate other prisoners and forcefully make them accept the Muslim faith. Those who yield are granted a false protection within the prison, whilst those who refuse suffer abuse, assaults and intimidation'

GANGMASTER 2

'In league with others he engaged in intimidation, assaults and recruitment of others into the Muslim Boys Gang/Muslim religion. The membership's aim is to confront staff and cause major disruptions to good in the prison. Has been seen, along with two others, going round the landing tooled up (armed with weapons). They bully fellow prisoners'

Posted by: faqi at January 30, 2006 8:30 PM