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Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald discusses the strangeness of the phenomenon of black Americans converting to Islam:
Given Islam’s record on slavery, black Americans should think twice about converting. And there are other considerations. Islam does not permit music, though here and there folk music has been allowed. But music having to do with religious worship is absolutely forbidden. When black Americans convert, they are throwing out all of Gospel music, doubly wicked in Muslim eyes: the music itself is forbidden, and this particular church music takes its texts from Old Testament stories (stories involving Jews, and the Promised Land). It is curious that real Muslims regarded (and may still regard) Elijah Muhammad's Black Muslims as not the real thing, partly because of the claims made on behalf of Elijah Muhammad himself, and partly because of the music that occasionally was allowed (and may still be) at certain gatherings of followers.When black Americans discard Christianity for the sake of Islam, because they are fooled into believing that Islam is somehow the correct vehicle of protest, they manifest ignorance of the whole horrible Arab slave trade. That trade began earlier and ended (where it did end) later than the European slave trade. Also, it was, because it involved the castration on site of so many black African children, much greater in scope. The mortality rate was something like 90%, so that only 1 out of 10 black male children seized and castrated by the Arab slavers actually made it to the slave markets of Riyadh, Cairo, Baghdad, Damascus, Algiers, Istanbul, and similar centers of Islam. See "The Hideous Trade" by Jan Hogedoorn.
Those Afro-Americans who are made the obvious target of a campaign of Da'wa (as are immigrants from Latin America), and who choose to embrace Islam, are unwittingly, with that "reversion" to Islam (one in which they are seldom presented with the full meaning, or texts, of Islam), also turning their back on, discarding, jettisoning, the place of Biblical imagery and of the Bible in the history of black America. Decades ago, when the Black Muslims first got started (and because of Elijah Muhammad's own claims, and other doctrinal irregularities, Arab Muslims never considered them to be "real Muslims" and even today are contemptuous of "Black Muslims" as opposed to "black Muslims"), much was made of their ability to supposedly "straighten people" out -- have them wear coats and ties, give up drugs and alcohol, and so on. Well, perhaps. But what it also did is cause them to abandon their entire pre-Islamic history, and to thus sever ties with their own past, their own relatives who remained Christians or part of a Christian or Judeo-Christian tradition.
Finally, let's talk about racism. Anyone who has spent even a week in the Arab states of the Gulf, or taken a summer course in Arabic in Cairo or Damascus, knows that the most racist, most skin-color aware societies on earth, are those of the Arabs -- despite all the talk of a "universalist" religion. One student of my acquaintance, who had taken courses with, and been brainwashed by, Bruce Lawrence of Duke University, to regard Islam as a great thing, then spent a summer in an Arab country. He came back completely disabused -- no greater racists, he insisted, had he ever met in his life. He was from rural South Carolina.Why this information is not more widely written about in the press, including the black press, by black ministers who should try to hold onto their flocks and not let wanderers be seduced by the siren-song of Islam, which for more than a thousand years has meant nothing but kidnapping followed by enslavement or death at the hands of Arab slavers, is beyond me. And even today Arabs continue to show their contempt and hatred for blacks, not only in the enslavement of black Africans by Arabs in Mali and Mauritania, but by the Libyan mobs that attacked black African students and lynched a black diplomat a few years ago; by the Moroccans who have been known to deal with black African migrant workers by taking them and dropping them in the middle of the desert with no possible way of survival; and of course by the behavior of that member in good standing of the Arab League, the government of the Sudan, which over 20 years, killed or starved to death nearly 2 million black Africans in the southern Sudan, with survivors often enslaved. Ask Francis Bok, ask all the "Lost Boys" now in the United States. Now they have extended their genocidal campaign to fellow Muslims in Darfur -- fellow Muslims, but black Africans, and so dispensable. As the Egyptian Zaki Badawi recently said, "they were not real Muslims." And that was the end of his comment -- apparently that was enough for him to lose any interest in their being victims of mass murder.
There's much more to add. But the Islamic Da’wa campaign in America involves the clever targeting of blacks. The Boston Mosque was placed right across from Roxbury Community College, and part of the "deal" was for the mosque members to offer "free lectures" to students at Roxbury Community College and 2,500 "books on Islam" (you can guess which kind) for the college's library. In other words, the Mosque's backers were planning on using it as a center for conducting Da'wa among the black population of Boston. One wonders if the Rev. Eugene Rivers, or other ministers, have taken note of the history of Islam, of the tenets of Islam, of the menace of Islam to the wellbeing of those whom they instruct and guide and elevate and offer solace to.
Begin with slavery. Slavery was implicitly recognized by the American Constitution. But it is so no longer. Fortunately, the Constitution has always been subject both to formal modification (amendments)through the express will of the people, and to judicial interpretation ("It is a constitution we are expounding" wrote Chief Jusice Marshall in Marbury v. Madison). There is no way to modify the passages in Qur'an, the sayings and acts of Muhammad in the Hadith and Sira, that allow, permit, even offer rules for, the institution of slavery. Muhammad himself, and his Companions, owned slaves -- the slaves taken in battle. It is not possible, therefore, for any Believer to denounce slavery as a moral evil, for that would be to condemn Muhammad. And he is uswa hasana, the Model for All Mankind. So it just can't be done.
Within recent months, lest anyone forget, a leading Saudi imam wrote that slavery is an essential part of Islam, recognized and accepted, and to abandon that idea is an insult to Islam. Believers know, though they will not always talk about (they are engaged in deception about the nature of Islam, concious or semi-conscious, round-the-clock -- sometimes not only to Infidels, but even to themselves), the fact that under Islam, slavery has a place that cannot be denied. Slavery has received permanent textual justification -- and those texts, deemed sacred by Believers, are also immutable.
Black Americans, like other Americans, like Infidels everywhere, who because of the actions of Muslims themselves, and despite the efforts of the political leaders in the Western world to repeat pious nonsense about the real nature of Islam, are beginning to realize that as a vehicle for the expression of discontent, Islam is not exactly ideal. For Islam represents the greatest successful imperialism -- Arab imperialism -- in human history. After those it directly conquered in the Middle East and North Africa and Hindustan, the greatest victims have so far not been white Europeans, but black Africans, hideously seized, castrated, dragged to the Muslim slave markets by coffle and dhow, with 90% of them dying on the way. Islam demands that converts ("reverts") simply regard with indifference or hostility their entire non-Islamic past. That leaves the non-Arab convert alone -- with no music, no art, no history, with essentially nothing but Islam.
There are many available vehicles of protest -- of expressing, articulately, discontent or dismay. The ballot box is possibly the best. There are ways to protest effectively things as they are, including the cult of Growth and of the "free market" as the answer to everything, and the grotesque elevation of Homo Economicus, Economic Man, narrowly conceived, as the new Golden Calf. It is possible to be enraged by illegitimate disparities of wealth (and nowhere are such disparities of wealth more obvious than within the Arab Muslim lands). But Islam is not a vehicle of protest. Rather, it is an expression of total alienation, of giving up entirely from the circumambient society, and cutting oneself off from one's history. And practitioners of Da'wa in this country have, it should be obvious, certain identifiable target populations, starting with black Americans -- especially those in prisons, for whom a center of stability and cultural life has been the church. Causing people to cut themselves off from that center of black life and culture would cruelly do more than merely "change their faith." It might just possibly undo them altogether, leaving them as recruits for the Army of Islam, deliberately alienated from their own past.
It is important to keep in mind the nature of Islam as a vehicle of Arab supremacism, of cultural and linguistic imperialism as well as of economic and poltical imperialism. Look at the historic treatment of black Africas by Arabs -- look at the slave entrepot of Zanzibar, the seizure even today of black oil wealth in the Sudan, the massacres of the Ibos in the Biafra War by Egyptian pilots strafing villages, the history of Arab slavers over a thousand years, and the open, rampant racism of Arab societies, which so surprised and horrified Malcolm X during his stay in Algeria. Those attitudes of racism, that use of Islam as a vehicle for Arab supremacism -- not only against black Africans, but also against Kurds, Berbers, and all other non-Arab Muslims as well -- should be the object of careful study, by all those who are tempted by the siren-song of Islam. And the long history of Arab enslavement of black Africans that continues to the present day and has no end, should not be put out of sight, or out of mind.
Posted by Robert at February 4, 2006 6:59 AM
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It does sadden me to think because of ignorance, that some black people can be seduced by this monster of a cult in far larger numbers than non black people. they have an interfaith meetings on Sunday mornings on the local PBS chanel locally, and l wish some of the non muslim clerics would really ask serious questions especially on slavery.
l will be printing this article for some of my ignorant friends and family, great article!
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at February 4, 2006 7:16 AM
Slavery under Christianity is also justified.
And so some Arabs have done some bad things. What segment of humanity hasn't? Anyway, Islam, however it may have started, is not an Arabic religion - there have long been many black African Muslims and the largest Islamic country is Indonesia.
There is a great and ancient body of music written in Islamic countries.
Fanaticism as seen in many anti-cartoon protests must be opposed with accurate criticism.
Posted by: santori at February 4, 2006 7:29 AM
I wont bother to try and prove this, but I think the US Constitution mandated a $10.00 tax per head of 'imported', people. Thats slaves they are talking about. Not only that, but ten dollars was a lot of money in the seventeen hundreds, and there were a lot of slaves. The gov made lots of loot from those who complied, and was then a partner in slavery.
It has always amazed me that any black would touch anything to do with slavery. Their history is miserable because of the condition of slavery, imposed on them for so long, by so many.
How can they revere Mohammad when they know he was a grande slave master and a nasty one at that? And he had an 'attitude' about blacks. Islam certainly has a way of fixating certain people, like placing a chicken on a long white line. Possibly Black Muslims of the, Nation of Islam type, are the ones who really mis-interpreted the Quran, hijacked it, and turned it into 'their' version of reality. Otherwise, I have no explanation for this behavior.
at February 4, 2006 8:20 AM
What leaps to mind with me on this subject, is the movie made from Alex Haley's "Roots". I remember a scene on the slave ship, where one captive is assuring Kunta that "Allah sees all".
Mr. Haley's work had, and I imagine it still has, a profound effect on black Americans. I'm thinking, maybe some of them actually believe their ancestors were Muslims.
Just a theory.
Posted by: Abscedere at February 4, 2006 10:18 AM
Santori says:-...oh why bother replying!? It will go in one ear and come out the other.
Posted by: Shunkleash at February 4, 2006 10:33 AM
Islam offers something that no other religion today can: supremacy and triumphalism. It should be no surprise that these are appealing to African-Americans, who have a finely honed sense of their subordinate position in the culture, economy and minds of the majority population. This is not to assert that this is universally true, but those who have suffered the most from the ills that afflict this community, certainly believe it to be so.
Enter Islam. The best analogy I can think of is Nazism, to the Germans of post-Versailles and post-depression Mitteleurope.
Quijybo
Posted by: Quijybo at February 4, 2006 11:06 AM
Quiybo & Hugh-
Plus there is the "pay back time for whitey" thrill involved in doing anything against the societal grain.
If Santoria or that one African tribe's worship of the Dog Star Sirius got the same worried looks from the "crackers", then as many American blacks would be just as happy adopting these "faiths".
Islam, in this case, is just a tool to scare "honkies".
Juvenile... but Hohammad liked 'em young.
(Ask Aiyesha.)
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 4, 2006 11:30 AM
I meant "Mohammad" (pb&j), but now that I look at it, "HO" hammad works even better. (Especially in the "bitches and ho's" lingo of the "hood" Def, huh?)
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 4, 2006 11:33 AM
a certain Preacher (Nameless) for his and the churches safety (yes in America we have to now worry) about what muslims will do to us if we tell the truth..
anyway he read from the Koran...
And then asked a simple question...
If the Blacks (and he is black by the way)
Are so against slavery (which is good) and Right..
How could you convert to Islam knowing that
Mohammed and Islam not only endoursed slavery but that to this DAY 2003 sept i believe..
Slavery is widespread in islamic countries..
In the Sudan Blacks are raped by arabs to ensure that the black race is slowly replaced by mixed race arabs..
He said "How can you leave a country that has REPENTED of the evils of slavery..
And then Join a religion that not only endourses slavery but encourages it to this very day...
Especially BLACKS....
No Answer...
Posted by: jingoist at February 4, 2006 11:36 AM
The hatred for the white race is behind the conversion to islam, plus islam approves of revenge...no need to repent or feel shame for hatred.
Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 4, 2006 12:43 PM
Just because Islam is working hard to convince African Americans to do something does not mean it is succeeding. You guys remind me a lot of democrats who panicked about African Americans voting for Bush just because Bush visited a few churches.
http://www.zionism-israel.com/bio/laVonMercer.htm
Israel's biggest ambassador. Looks like impressive success by Islam (Not).
Also the triumphalism and supremicism is what appeals to everyone about Islam, which is why white Americans convert.
at February 4, 2006 1:48 PM
Slavery under Christianity is also justified.
That is absolutely absurd.
Islam, however it may have started, is not an Arabic religion
That is also absolutely absurd, a little google goes a long ways, but as they say, ignorance is bliss
Posted by: Bar at February 4, 2006 2:00 PM
But what it also did is cause them to abandon their entire pre-Islamic history, and to thus sever ties with their own past, their own relatives who remained Christians or part of a Christian or Judeo-Christian tradition."
-Hugh
Blacks convert to Islam out of anger and a misunderstanding of history. Moreover, many see the prohibitions against racism in Islam. Lets not deny that those prohibitions against racism exist.
To say that African Americans are of a Christian background shows that you don't understand the animus that lingers from centuries of mistrust. Had you been brought to be destined to be sold to people in a foreign place, populated with foreign looking people, who practiced a (to most) foreign religion that they even used to justify your servitude, you might develop a strong dislike to everything associated with your oppressor (religion included). Moreover, the truth is the Africans that were brought here were mostly animist, not Moslem. The fact that most were converted to Christianity and thus over time developed a "history" of being Christians equates to a false history for some blacks.
Unshackling oneself of your slave master’s name, and his religion, in the minds of these young men is the greatest achievement. Of course we know that it is folly to believe that Islam is somehow liberating since, as you have correctly pointed out, it is religion that still allows slavery. I am not arguing in favor of their conversion to Islam, far from it. In fact, it shocks and scares me to think that they do. However, you must attempt to put yourself in the minds of the young men that are vulnerable to the religion.
Blacks need self-esteem, but neither you nor I can give it to them. As a man who happens to be a homosexual, I am keenly aware of the unrelenting attacks against homosexuals in society. Some of you might laugh when you read my analogy to racism, but I do not care. Although I do not know what it feels like to be black and walk the streets, I can understand it fully on some levels. Luckily, I have the advantage of being entirely undetectable in my society. Nevertheless, I know the feeling of being detested by so many. Our society is absolutely filled with open animus toward gays, at least such things cannot be said openly about blacks. Yet I rise above it all since I have dignity. Although I have an education, health, a nice home, a wonderful family and a good job, none of those things give me the dignity I need to survive. My dignity comes from contemplation, from within, and not from a religion. No person can take it away from me no matter the vitriolic crap they throw around. I believe that once a black person gets the dignity, it likewise cannot be taken away. I cannot stop someone from attacking me if they feel (religiously) compelled to do so because I am gay, although I can defend myself fully. Even if I am attacked by such a zealot who discovers my homosexuality in this frighteningly and increasingly religious society, in my heart I will maintain my dignity.
Once more blacks get it, I sincerely hope they will find they don’t need Islam as a crutch. I have listened carefully to Farrakhan and he is not the complete fool some of you make him out to be. Sure, I detest Islam and believe he was foolish to join the cult. And like you all, I hate his statements about the Jews. Nonetheless, he talks about self worth. And to his target audience that is the key. The government cannot give dignity it to you. Your parents cannot give it to you. No one can you what you lack, not even Islam. I’m afraid our only device against such black men is not necessarily Christianity, but information about Islam - and much of it. Blacks must seek their own self worth, and not through such a terrible religion.
at February 4, 2006 2:04 PM
Bar,
This is a site about Islam; we hate Islam here and focus on it. However, when I read that you are not even aware of what Christianity is, it is time to dust off the books that have collected cobwebs in our modern age.
Bar, you asked if slavery is allowed in the bible. Guess what? It is!
1) Slavery is amply supported by a majority of passages on the subject. So yes, most assuredly the bible supports it!
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/slavery.html
2) Biblical references to slavery in amusing and simple form (Lego blocks with biblical passages):
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/slavery/ex21_21b.html
Is slavery supported in the Quran?
1) You betcha!
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/says_about/slavery.html
Christians studying Islam might be shocked to find out what the bible say about such cruel practices. Imagine how hard it was historically to end those practices when it was defending in the "holy book". It was only when the law of reason took precedence over the laws of god.
at February 4, 2006 2:18 PM
Jamaat al-Fuqra specifically targets Blacks in prison for reversion very successfully. They sort of wine and dine those who are out, provide housing, a community, much like Rev. Moon targeted trust fund hippies who needed desperately to belong someplace anyplace.
Posted by: Whistling Dixie at February 4, 2006 2:23 PM
Bar~ if Islam has Always been around, then:
A) how is it Mohammed is the one who brought it to the arabs
B) how is it the arabs themselves date islam from mohammed?
Posted by: Gary at February 4, 2006 3:04 PM
Lots of blacks like the victim identity, it absolves them of responsibility for their lives. They also look at other blacks who have generally assimilated and are successful as "traitors", and despise them. The successful ones(and I'm not talking about athletes or even entertainers) are proof against their excuses.
Of course there is also social-engineering going on with "affirmative action", which is not necessarily a good thing because it corrupts market-forces, is reverse-racism, and is not necessary.
The ultimate social-engineering operation will be when Hillary runs against Condoleeza.
Posted by: kentim at February 4, 2006 3:05 PM
Posted by: NicephorusPhocas: "Also the triumphalism and supremicism is what appeals to everyone about Islam, which is why white Americans convert".
Triumphalism and supremicism are aspects of power seekers.
According to Tolstoy, paraphrased somewhat... the good cannot seek power nor retain it, to do that, men must love power, and love of power is opposite of qualities from goodness...pride, cunning, cruelty. So if he is right, we know the good are not in power now, and are not likely to be in the future. This especially applys to Islam.
And worse than that, triumphalism and supremicism are acts of black magick. There must be someone for the triumphant supremist to lord it over (slaves/dhimmis). If that is what is so appealing about Islam, those attracted have a evil streak in them. This can be confirmed by simply paying attention. The the weak black magicians (which is every one of the Islamic, triumphant supremists), cant protect themselves from the force they unleash and just may just perish in the fires they set.
Allah has decreed it, and he knows best...
at February 4, 2006 3:16 PM
"Of course there is also social-engineering going on with "affirmative action", which is not necessarily a good thing because it corrupts market-forces, is reverse-racism, and is not necessary."
Kentim
Yes, yes, yes and yes you are right. I suppose an additional argument could be made that affirmative action in general is by itself something that hurts self asteem. However, do you have any other suggestion to remedy the situation?
I reckon a better way might be to greatly increase blacks' skills. But until then, what is the solution? We dare not turn our backs to them after suffering slavery and then Jim Crow.
"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." Mahatma Ghandi
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at February 4, 2006 3:34 PM
'Supremacism'
Interesting.
As another poster once said here: 'I am morally, physically and mentally superior to you' (not quite his exact words, but pretty close.)
Has anyone heard from giaour/what's-his-name, lately?
Posted by: Gary at February 4, 2006 3:42 PM
It's not just Islamic Da'wa that is seducing African-Americans; it is also the pathologically self-critical ideology of Western PC Leftism that has created a nebula of language and psychology for all "victims" of the evil white West to articulate, however incoherently, their disenchantment and disengagement from the only civilization in world history that has evolved to the point where all non-Western non-whites can have the best chance to enjoy prosperity, safety, and basic human dignity.
That disenchantment and disengagement, then, predisposes the African-American to be bewitched by the siren song of non-Western Islam.
Posted by: Dr. Pepper at February 4, 2006 4:59 PM
Hi Kafir Non Believer,
I don't really want to get into the race thing too much right now, other than to say that I believe the problem was generally taken care of shortly after the civil war, none of the other stuff was necessary beyond enforcing those laws.
Are you aware there were black people elected to congress and/or the senate in the late 1800's? Or that there was a black woman who was a self-made millionaire in the early 1900's? And that the suicide rate for both blacks and whites has tripled since 1950?
The reason blacks have a lower life-expectancy is because they kill each other when they are young. It has nothing to do with racists screwing them on healthcare or whatnot.
Freedom is not supposed to be all fun and games, sometimes it sucks. But real freedom must be played by the rules. The civil war forced the issue, eliminated a contradiction and it was resolved. The treatment of black slaves is not an exclusive event in human history, everybody has been f-cking everybody theroughout human history, including blacks f-cking others or themselves. I don't have any guilt, they are not the only victims in the world, and I've got enough to worry about without some sh-t that happened 140 years ago. Its all about power and control, and it will never end.
Would the black descendents of slaves in America be better off in Africa today?
I would just suggest reading some of Thomas Sowell's writing, or Booker T. Washington(he passed up a million dollar offer).
There's an alternative historical reality that has been conveniently washed from the consciousness of society for around the last 40 years.
Posted by: kentim at February 4, 2006 5:45 PM
Kentim,
You must not forget that after slavery officially ended, it lingered on. And where it was extinguished, Jim Crow went into effect. The legacy of slavery was very powerful. I understand your arguments about so many peoples being aggrieved through out history, but consider that we are a nation with an underlying sense of fairness. Do we act like the nations of old?
Lastly, consider the REAL Islamic bomb: racism. Racism leads to disenfranchisement, and leads to Islamic recruitment.
at February 4, 2006 6:04 PM
Well, if it lingered on it was because of locals not enforcing the law, and the remedy was to make them enforce the law, after all, they lost the fricken war. Or the blacks were free to move to a more hospitible environment. There are places in the USA I will not go to right now because of unreasonable risk. But I have the freedom to go there. Freedom of association and property rights prohibits government coercive intervention in the private sphere, if you can't handle that then you can't handle freedom. The fact is that the blacks had created their own community that if left alone would have eventually EVOLVED into a more pluralistic society than we have today in my opinion.
Forcing people to associate has not worked obviously, in spite of all the mass-media images pretending it has.
Posted by: kentim at February 4, 2006 6:22 PM
Kafir nonbeleiver:"Lastly, consider the REAL Islamic bomb: racism. Racism leads to disenfranchisement, and leads to Islamic recruitment."
That sounds good, but there is one thing wrong with it. Islam is not a race and neither are muslims. Racism is a tactical smokescreen used by muslims and apologists as a weapon.
And what does the reciever of racism, who has been disenfranchised, get out of joining up with the devil? Protection? Money? Acceptance by those who rejected him in the first place? Women? The only real reason to convert to Islam is if you believe Allah is God, and you want to worship on that basis. All other reasons like racism and disenfanchisement are false. The real Islamic bomb is the Quran and traditions of Mohammad, that have already exploded all over the place...
at February 4, 2006 6:26 PM
Kafir Nonbeliever
with all due respect, I didn't ask any questions.
I have been an avid reader of this site for at least two years, so I am well aware of what this site is about, although I am unwilling to paint all Moslems with the same brush.
The slavery that is being discussed here is forced slavery.
The book of Deuteronomy makes it clear that the only slavery condoned in the Bible is of a voluntary nature. Kinda like today, everyone who has a job is a voluntary slave. I imagine life was pretty rough back then, I don’t think being a voluntary slave then is much different then being a voluntary slave today, it puts food on the table and a roof over your head.
I am not trying to suggest that Jews or Christians haven't practiced forced slavery, I am just stating that the Bible does not condone it. Another example could be King David, he had more than one wife. Just because David practiced polygamy doesn't infer that God OK’d it. God clearly says in the book of Genesis that a man shall have one wife, not 5 or 10.
Gary, I realize I haven't posted in a while, but you know me better then that.
I was commenting on the second post down from the top, made by santori, He or She made the statement that Islam wasn't an arabic religion, albeit, they let it be known that they are clueless. I guess they think Mohammad was a Japanese guy.
Posted by: Bar at February 4, 2006 6:55 PM
Muslims here spread a lie that all blacks were Muslim,when they were brought to America as slaves,and the White Masters converted them into Christianity.But the real fact was,all the blacks,who were rounded up mostly in northern Africa by the greedy Arab slave mercants. These Blacks were not Muslims,but tribals.
Even Mohamed Ali,the famous Boxer have told that he is reverting back to his original faith of his forfathers,which is not true. It is a false roumour spread by Muslims,like' muslims were there ,when Columbus discovered America!.
Black slaves were treated as animals or chattles during Prophet Mohamed's time. He has metioned them as 'property,Which one's right-hand posseth'-which means the Masters property. Arab Muslims were allowed to use sexually, the black slave girls freely. Hadits have some degrading remarks about blacks,such as 'resin heads',and at one time,a black man was mentioned as 'black devil'.
Black American Christians are very very strong in their faith. It is a treat to attend their black Church services. Their Gospel songs,their way of responding to a sermon by standing up and lifting their hands up is a sight to see. I think RealChritianity will survive in America, becuse of these Black Americans. Nation of Islam 's black Muslims are shun by the Arab and other Muslims as not Muslims at all. Then what is the use of sticking to a unwanted religion?
at February 4, 2006 9:34 PM
The complex history of Christianity and the issue of slavery is very different than Islam's relationship to this horrible institution. Is there anything anywhere in the history of Islam corresponding to (for starters) SICUT DUDUM of Pope Eugene IV condemning the enslavement of the Guanches and other indigenous peoples of the newly colonized Canary Islands?
"They (the Europeans) have deprived the natives of their property or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery, sold them to other persons and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them Therefore We exhort, through the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ shed for their sins, one and all, temporal princes, lords, captains, armed men, barons, soldiers, nobles, communities and all others of every kind among the Christian faithful of whatever state, grade or condition, that they themselves DESIST from the aforementioned deeds, cause those subject to them to desist from them, and restrain them rigorously. And no less do we order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex that, WITHIN THE SPACE OF FIFTEEN DAYS of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands who have been made subject to slavery. These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of any money." January 13, 1435
A convenient collection of many such papal documents is contained in THE POPES AND SLAVERY by Joel S. Panzer.
Posted by: Tom at February 4, 2006 11:49 PM
"I have been an avid reader of this site for at least two years, so I am well aware of what this site is about, although I am unwilling to paint all Moslems with the same brush."
-Bar
That you don't consider all Moslems "bad" is hardly revolutionary. We here are well aware that not Moslems engage in the same behavior. Perhaps the "moderates" are unaware of what Islam is about. Perhaps they are not "devout"? Maybe they are just good old fashioned apostates.
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at February 5, 2006 12:49 AM
Kafir Nonbeliever: "Perhaps the "moderates" are unaware of what Islam is about. Perhaps they are not "devout"? Maybe they are just good old fashioned apostates."
There is no such thing as a moderate muslim. Those that put themselves off as 'moderates' know the Quran perfectly well. One is either a 'devout' muslim or not devout. A not devout muslim is not a muslim at all, he is an apostate.
Apostacy comes with refusing to participate in jihad. It is every muslims 'obligation' to participate in and support jihad. If you dont do it, you die a hypocrite. There are no muslim hypocrites...are there??? The trap...participate in jihad and take a great risk of dying, or apostate yourself and also take a great risk of dying. Mohammad figured that one out in a hurry...he promised them anything, and everything, but for most of them, he gave them death. Of course we all know that Allahs paradise reaches beyond mere death. It's so good that people are just dying to get in there.
You dont really die, you just get to lay on a cloud all day having sex with seventy two virgins, and eating grapes. Aint that just peachy. No wonder everyone is converting, grapes are hard to come by...
at February 5, 2006 2:24 AM
Bar~ It Has been a while. Apologies!
Posted by: Gary at February 5, 2006 7:43 AM
What Hugh describes --this immense ignorance about the unattractive features of Arab and Muslim history-- could not have existed without the complicity of intellectuals and educational institutions [including churches] in America and elsewhere in the West. "Academic" journals like Middle East Journal, "leftist" groups and publications, the mainstream press, like the NYTimes and WashPo and Time and Nswk, etc., goody goody bodies like the Amer Friends Service Committee, ARAMCO and oil industry executives, always or almost always covered up for Arabs and Islam. Of course, Bernard Lewis and --I believe-- somebody named David Brion Davis have put out books about slavery in Islam.
BTW, Hugh, I think you were referring to Eldridge Cleaver in Algiers, rather than Malcom X. Cleaver's letter from Algiers was fairly widely distributed at the time, around 1970.
Posted by: Eliyahu at February 5, 2006 8:20 AM
Eliyahu -- you're right and I will correct it. Cleaver was in Algeria in 1970, where he thought he would find soul brothers and found instead the Arab supremacist ideology which the Berbers in the Kabyle could have told him about, and so could tens of millions of black Africans who were victims over the centuries during which the Arab slavers were in full cry, specializing in the seizure of young black males and castrating them in situ (in unsanitary conditiions that can be imagined) and then finally appearing, with the one of ten that survived both the operation and the long march overland, or the trip by dhow, to the Arab slave markets of Cairo, Algiers, Jiddah, Damascus, Baghdad, Istanbul, and Smyrna.
Here's a relevant piece:
"In a January 1977 interview with The Boston Herald American, Cleaver said that
'having lived intimately for several years amongst the Arabs, I know them to be amongst the most racist people on earth. This is particularly true of their attitude toward black people.... Many Arab families that can afford to, keep one or two black slaves to do their menial labor. Sometimes they own an entire family. I have seen such slaves with my own eyes.'"
One wonders if Eldridge Cleaver is still read, and if he is read, are his views on the Arabs, that went against what he was expecting, but were derived from his own experience, on offer to students? Or would his take not fit the tendentious template of Third-World solidarity, and identifying with Arab supremacists (so much more appealing, apparently, than any other kind) rather than exposing them, or for that matter revealing Islam to be the vehicle for that Arab supremacism.
Posted by: Hugh at February 5, 2006 1:37 PM
Kafir, as someone else already replied slavery in Old Testament times was primarily voluntary. You won't see passages in there that are statements that decree taking of slaves to be an ongoing rite. The Bible, unlike the Qu'ran, is very contextual. Taking passages out of context, like one of those websites does, will not give the complete history or reason for such passages.
The tradition of voluntary slavery continues into the New Testament as in
James 1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Jesus himself was doing the will of the Father throughout His ministry and death.
Galatians 3:28:
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
The idea from this is that no matter our position in life we are servants to Christ and should do all things as unto Him. The master was obliged to care greatly for his servants as if they were his own family. Treating people as animals and abusing them because they were slaves or servants was certainly not in the words of the Bible
Now in the Qu'ran that is not the case. Those taken into slavery were treated as cattle and sex objects for their Muslim masters. Why? Because Mohammed did it. Jesus never did it.
As far as your admittance to being homosexual and being attacked by religious Christian people, well that is certainly not Christ like. Religious people often forget that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. However, Jesus when forgiving people would often say, you are forgiven, go and sin no more. So in other words He says come as you are but don't stay as you are.
at February 5, 2006 2:59 PM
The bottom line is that many Christians have been motivated by their faith to work for the elimination of slavery as an institution. Both Catholics and Protestants found resources in their very different traditions to mount ever stronger opposition to the slave trade AND the institution itself. Is there anything at all analogous to this in Islam's history? I think not.
The points made by "disciple" are important. One of the books in the New Testment is a letter from Paul asking a Christian slave owner to receive his runaway slave as a brother! A small group of several thousand early Christians (in an empire of hundreds of millions) was in no position to think about changing social structures, but it was in a position to look at slaves in a radically new way - as esteemed brothers and sisters in Christ.
Posted by: Tom at February 5, 2006 3:15 PM
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