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Special to Jihad Watch: Professor Miroljub Jevtiæ assesses the situation in Kosovo and beyond. Professor Jevtiæ is a professor at the College of Political Science at the Belgrade University. He is visiting the United States this month with Bishop Artemije of Raska and Prizren (which includes Kosovo and Metohija) in a mission to awaken the West -– and especially the United States -– against the ill-advised direction of current policy and the disastrous impact it would have on Kosovo’s beleaguered Christian Serbs.
Professor Jevtiæ is the author of numerous articles on the theme of Islam, and has appeared as an expert on Islam on TV and in print media across the Balkans. He is an author of nine books dealing with the influence of Islam on the world politics, including Religion and Politics: Introduction to politics of religion (2002); Islam in the works of Ivo Andric (2000); All of Our Misconceptions (1999); The Crime Awaits punishment (1998); Muslims Between the Faith and a Nation (1996); Islam and Geopolitical Logic (1995); Albanians and Islam (1995); From the Islamic Declaration to the Religious War in Bosnia (1993); and Modern Jihad as War (1989). Other writings include "Bosnia In Paris" (December 3, 2005); "The West Must Learn Islam" (September 1, 2005); and "The Funadamentals of al-Qaeda in Kosovo: Islamization as factor of Albanization in the region of former Yugoslavia" (June 12, 2005).
Negotiations regarding the future status of Kosovo are about to begin. It is increasingly clear that the overwhelming majority of the world media, not to mention the government of the United States and its allies, favor giving independence to the Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija, which since the 1999 war has been administered by the United Nations under NATO military control. Or, to put it more accurately, the western world is in favor of detaching Kosovo from (Christian) Serbia by fiat and making it into an independent (Muslim) state.The main argument of those supporting this scenario, -- notably in the United States, where advocates of the Muslim Albanian cause have -- is that by doing so they would repair their image in the Islamic world and show that they do not have anti-Islamic inclinations. This, they think, would co-opt the influence of Islamic “extremists.” For example, as recommended in the official report of the 9-11 Commission: “Just as we did in the Cold War, we need to defend our ideals abroad vigorously. America does stand up for its values. The United States defended, and still defends, Muslims against tyrants and criminals in Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq. If the United States does not act aggressively to define itself in the Islamic world, the extremists will gladly do the job for us.” In addition, they think that the moderate Muslims in Kosovo (as the West incorrectly considers Kosovo’s Albanians to be) will create a prosperous, multiethnic democracy, which will, while still remaining sufficiently Muslim, serve as an example of how one can remain a Muslim and be secular at the same time.
This policy is founded on grave misconceptions. The first misconception is that by offering aid to the Kosovo Muslims, the hatred of the Islam world for the United States of America would be mitigated. The result would, in fact, be the opposite. In fact, the independence of Kosovo will increase the hatred for the US. One reason for displeasure of the Islamic world will be found, first of all, in the fact that the Muslims would still not be in control of what they claim as their third most holy place, the al-Aqsa mosque which is built on the site of the Temple of Solomon. And the entire Islamic world believes that Israel can control the whole of Jerusalem, including al-Aqsa, only because it has the support of the United States. Without the American help, they believe that Israel would be destroyed -- its own courage, wisdom and devotion to its cause notwithstanding.
However, there is no religious Muslim, whether “moderate” or “extreme,” who does not consider that Jerusalem must be part of a Palestinian state. And the existence of Israel denies the possibility of this. Therefore, from their point of view, the infidels can give the Muslims Kosovo; we can give them Bosnia, Kashmir, Chechnya, New York itself, as well as Paris, they will not be reconciled as long as they do not have sovereignty over Jerusalem. Should they relinquish this idea, be it in their dreams only, they would burn in hell. But Jerusalem cannot belong to the Muslims because the West, and particularly the United States, will not permit it. So if America can give Kosovo to the Albanian Muslims, they can certainly give Jerusalem to the Palestinian Muslims. But they stubbornly refuse to do so! And “Muslim rage” -- before which the entire world quakes over a few cartoons – will burn even hotter.In the psychology of all religious Muslims, anyone who is against taking Jerusalem away from Israel is an enemy, whether they are willing to say it openly or not. Moreover, a religious Muslim believes that it is not normal for the Christians not to reason in the same way and not to try to show to the whole world that their faith is superior to that of other faiths. The fact that in traditionally Christian countries the number of Christian believers, as well as the number of Christian places of worship, is on the decline, whereas the number of Muslims and mosques is on the increase, is seen as the triumph of the true faith over the false faith—the triumph of Islam over Christianity. This is why the fact that since the arrival of NATO to Kosovo over 150 Christian churches have been destroyed and some 400 mosques have been built, or are under construction, is for the Muslims a proof that if there is a faith which is supported by true God -- it is Islam! Because, why would the Christian God, why would Jesus, permit the destruction of churches, where He, Jesus, is glorified? Why would He, at the same time, permit the construction of mosques, where His existence as God is denied? Why would He permit it, moreover, in the presence of men who bear arms and who claim to be Christians?
So, instead of seeing the presence of the West in Kosovo and Metohija as a proof of religious tolerance, the Albanian Muslims, and Muslims in general, see it as a proof of the fact that Islam is the true faith, the faith which is the only way to the salvation after death. The granting of independence to Kosovo would simply validate the conviction of Muslim extremists that theirs is the only correct policy, and that they should continue on the path they have followed so far. The number of followers of this doctrine would only continue to grow as it has done so far. This would lead to the increase in the number of those who are against “moderate” Islamic regimes and who will begin, as recent Palestinian and Egyptian elections have shown, to undermine moderate and (even minimally) pro-western governments. Such countries will be headed by people who think like Osama Bin Laden, or others of similar ilk. They will build into their foreign policy platforms their aspirations to transform their confrontations with the West into a global victory.Their first target will be Israel. Because now, after resolving their problems in Kosovo and Bosnia, they will be able to concentrate with all their might on the main objective—the sovereignty over Jerusalem. First, they will use all diplomatic channels to pressure the West to deny Israel’s right to exist. If they do not succeed in this, they will prepare for the destruction of Israel by military force. If the West tries to thwart them, their aspirations to achieve parity in military technology will grow until they have reached supremacy. Afterwards, in the name of jihad, Israel and the entire western civilization will be destroyed.
Moreover, no advocate of this ideology has an iota of doubt regarding the humaneness of this position. This is because they do not kill out of hatred; they kill out of love. The non-Muslims live in sin because they do things prohibited by God: they drink alcohol, they eat pork, they recognize the rights of homosexuals, they tolerate the scantiness of female attire. All these are sins punishable by death according to Shari’a law if the transgressors continue to sin in spite of God’s warning as expressed in the Koran. The killing of these sinners simply ensures for them a more clement treatment on Judgment Day, because, if they are not killed for these sins, who knows what other sins they might yet commit?
This was the reasoning of Muhammad Atta and his comrades in terror when they killed on September 11. This will be the reasoning of an ever increasing number of Muslims who are not yet ready to see the West as a serious force which should not be taken lightly. This is how the Muslims will reason when Kosovo becomes purely Muslim and when the last traces of Christianity are erased from it, erased moreover with the help of countries which claim to be Christian. Granting the independence to Kosovo will be taken as proof of Europe’s own wish to cease to exist, as it not only allows the expansion of Islam but is actively promoting it by aiding those who are destroying churches, raping nuns, spitting on crosses and daubing with excrement holy images of Christ. And Christians represented by KFOR personnel, far from trying to stop these acts of desecration, stand idly by averting their eyes. Such a Kosovo will be a base for jihad aggression against Europe keeping Christian forces tied in the Balkans while the center of the Islamic world will devote itself to the unimpeded destruction of Israel.
The only way to change the situation, to avert this next escalation in the clash of civilizations is to mobilize the entire Christian world against the independence of Kosovo and Metohija and to support its continuance within Christian Serbia. The Muslims would not like this, but they understand that this is what should be done. Because in their minds they know that it is logical for the Christians to act together. And so they will understand that the Christian world is strong and should not be provoked. Regimes now in power in Egypt, Tunisia, and Algeria would not lose the support of the West. It will be understood that the relations of these regimes with the West are the only possible path for the Muslims, because the Christian West is strong.
This is the way of averting the clash of civilizations, which will be inevitable if we continue on the path we are following now. This does not mean that there will be friendship between the West and Islam, but there will not be open war either. There will only be the necessary collaboration. Besides the Koran orders the believers to respect those who are strong, because according to Islam strength always comes from God. God knows who should be given strength and who should be tested. And Muslims can only be friends with Muslims. The Koran is clear on this: Sura IX verse 23 begins: “O, ye who believe, choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith…”
Posted by Robert at February 8, 2006 7:56 PM
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Pox on Clinton. I said then and I will say it again, Clinton bombed the wrong people in the 1990's. We should have sided with the Serbs.
Never, ever side with a muslim country, they will just turn on you. Iraq will one day turn on us.
Posted by: FIVEOFNINE![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at February 8, 2006 8:51 PM
Its a disgrace what we did to the Christian Serbs. Kosovo was a Serbian (Christian) province and they let in Muslim Albanians and now the Muslim Albanians want it for themselves. Never, Never help or go to the aid of Muslims against the Christians. How the hell can Kosovo be Albanian? Albanians have Albania, the fact that Muslims breed like flies and then take over another country does not entitle them to it. The US has no idea about what is going on in the outside world. Muslims hate the US, what ever we do as we (rightly) support Isreal. Infiltration in to a country and then calling it their own does not make right.
Posted by: faqi at February 8, 2006 9:14 PM
"Their first target will be Israel."
-- from the article above
The first target "will be" Israel? Israel has been the first target, for the Lesser Jihad against it began at a time when the Arabs and Muslims did not have the OPEC trillions, nor the migrant tens of millions behind what the Muslims themselves regard as enemy lines, nor the technological means to disseminate, through audiocassette, videocassette, satellite channel, and the Internet, the full malevolence of their insistence on fighting the Infidels wherever those Infidels may be said to oppose the spread of Islam.
The Greater Jihad, of which the Lesser Jihad against Israel was a harbinger and of which it forms a part, is that against the entire Infidel world, which has no end until final victory.
The attempt to reclaim the former Ottoman domains, especially in the Balkans, and then al-Andaluz, or Spain (a subject of much discussion in the Muslim world, and hardly an Arab city exists that does not have "Andaluz" Street crossing Haifa or Palestine), does not precede a final assault on Israel, and the assault on Israel is hardly the next and only goal. All of these local Jihads are merely manifestations of a single set of teachings, to be found, and quite easily, in the Qur'an, the Hadith, and in the model for all mankind, Muhammad as depicted in the Sira.
Islam is a fihgting faith, not metaphorically but literally. Its founder was a military leader and conquerer. He gave advice for conquest. Among other bits: "War is deception." He explained the proper role of Islam: "Islam is to dominate and not to be dominated." It is a belief-system that came out of, or perhaps accompanied, a series of successful conquests, a belief-system that both promotes, and justifies, such conquest. It is a triumphjalist religion: every triumph over the Infidel feeds the sense of the inevitability of further triumphs, and swells Muslim hearts with a sense that they cannot be stopped. Every sign of compromise by Infidels, who live in a different world, with a different set of beliefs, including the notion that only through "compromise" and meeting others half-way can conflict be avoided, and peace achieved, will merely be taken by Muslims as a sign of Infidel weakness, and mean more, not less, trouble ahead. This is hard for many raised in a different way, with different principles, to begin to comprehend.But it must be comprehended. Islam can be contained but not changed, and not softened. Its goal is without limit: the entire world. Islam must eventuallly rule everywhere, and Muslims rule, for that is right, that is proper, that is as it should and must be. And it does not matter how long it takes.
A victory anywhere, whether over Denmark and the rest of Europe (forced to yield to Shari'a laws regulating blasphemy), or Serbia (forced to yield Kosovo), or Israel (forced to yield -- all of itself), will simply encourage Islamic efforts elsewhere.
The Western idea that compromise leads to peace does not mean a thing in Islam. The only way to stop Muslim aggresssion is to deprive Muslims of victories of any kind, and to ensure that they lack the wherewithal, as they did for centuries, to conduct major -- i.e. world-wide -- Jihad. And finally, if the Infidel enemy is not only overwhelmingly more powerful, but seen to be overwhelmingly more powerful, then Muslim rulers can invoke the concept of "darura" or necessity to explain their own failure to join in Jihad.
And that is why everywhere, in Kosovo and in Denmark's newspaper offices, in French schools (the presence of the hijab was demanded) and Italian public buildings (where the absence of the crucifix was demanded), and in Israel, where the rights of Jews and Christians to their holy sites would end the minute that Muslim rule were re-established, the demands of Muslims must be opposed, and defeated.
Tout se tient. Everything here connnects.
And the title might be: Today Jerusalem and Kosovo, tomorrow the world.
Posted by: Hugh at February 8, 2006 9:29 PM
From the main article:
"If the West tries to thwart them, their aspirations to achieve parity in military technology will grow until they have reached supremacy. Afterwards, in the name of jihad, Israel and the entire western civilization will be destroyed."
----------------
That seems strange.
I suppose if they only "try" to thwart them it makes sense.
I think we've "thwarted" Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya so far. Iran should be next. After that then comes Saudi-Arabia, then Pakistan.
The only military threat the islamic world can actually threaten us with is WMD. And I said military. Not dawa or demographics. Both of which are SIMPLE to counter.
We are in the Middle-East for control. Don't buy all the stupid proclamations about freedom and democracy. Of course it's a tricky operation, but as long as we can control the life or death of the "leaders" we can control what and how the government spends the money. And we don't care about simple greedy corruption, we care about WMD labs and production, or clandestine procurement efforts.
Posted by: kentim at February 8, 2006 9:56 PM
Mmm-hmm, I think that guy was trying to sneak something past us.
Posted by: kentim at February 8, 2006 10:07 PM
I'm not doubting that the Serbs under Milosevic committed some unimaginable atrocities. But the overwhelming preferential treatment of Albanian Muslims in the Kosovo affair was the third event in the myopic saga known as "Our Muslim Allies."
Though preceded by US relations with Turkey, and with the Saudis (especially from WWII onward), the one that seems to have set US policy into motion in recent times was Afghanistan.
Having been born in the year the Soviets invaded that country, I don't have a firm handle on how much the US knew at the time about the devils they were dealing with (too recent for the history books when I was in school), but I suppose it's conceivable that they didn't know. And that they didn't know how much they didn't know.
The second was the Gulf War. We saved the Saudis' and Kuwaitis' bacon (turkey or soy bacon, of course). Of course they were friendly.
The third was Kosovo, which was partly motivated by Western guilt in having not acted sooner to prevent atrocities such as Srebrenica. In a way, it may have looked like Afghanistan, Jr.: A mini-Russia in conflict with a smaller, Muslim neighbor. Kosovo was the first one that went sour in a hurry. I don't know what we're still doing there, or who we're protecting from whom at this point. File under: "Fool me once, shame on you."
One could call Chechnya a parenthetical Number 3.5 on the list. Though we weren't militarily involved, I remember the initial reporting being sympathetic to the "freedom fighters" who were trying to shake off the grip of the Russian bear. Then we realized they were terrorists. "Our bad." Misgivings were applied retroactively to Kosovo.
Number 4, then, is Iraq. What fools we were, in hindsight, to believe the likes of Chalabi who told us we would be greeted as liberators, and then Iraq, too, would become "Our Muslim Allies," overlooking profound differences in culture, notions of "tolerance," and collective ambitions of different peoples. The "American Dream" does not equal "The Iraqi Dream."
These assumptions (recalling the saying about "When you ass-ume...") set the stage for anarchy in Iraq following the fall of Saddam, and gave the insurgents, foreign and domestic, a head start in getting situated. File under: "Fool me twice, shame on me."
Hopefully, that series of events will at least constitute lessons learned if/when we have to take on the larger threat of Iran, so that history doesn't repeat itself.
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 8, 2006 11:07 PM
Never liked this "Clash of Civilizations" tag.
For that, you need two Civilizations. Not one Civilization and one Devolution.
I prefer "The Attack on Civilization".
(Or "Clash of Cultures", if you want to stick with that kind of formulation. Although it still gives a false equivalence between the combatants.)
The Cartoon Jihad has pulled the mask off Islam to most indifferent-to-religion Westerners, and it must be kept off.
More cartoons! More lampoons!!
Keep Islam honest!
And exposed!
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 8, 2006 11:35 PM
This is Exactly why i KNOW
Islam is no religion of peace but of WAR
Islam is a DEATH CULT
Islam will never rest until
ALL jews are DEAD
ALL christians ARE DEAD
ALL Infidels are DEAD
ALL countries are muslim..
ALL are living in caves with a diaper wrapped around their head..
Chanting twards a city waiting for a so called
god who will never appear...
Because ALLAH is FALSE..
Posted by: jingoist at February 9, 2006 12:19 AM
I want to pose another possible explanation why US and its Nato alliens got involved in Kosovo and in general Yugoslavian war before that.
If you remember, Europe was very much involved in this operations, helping the Muslims in Bosnia gain their independence. Kosovo came later, when Europeans decided that Yugoslavian empire in the Balkans was still too big, after Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina were made into separate countries. This was done to eliminate the Russian influence in the Balkans, a stategically important area as can be evidenced by experiences of WWI and WWII. It was mostly done because Europe wanted it, not the US. And of course, they sold it as saving Muslims. Honestly, do you think even pre-911 US and Europe ever really gave a damn about Muslims. Hell no and rightfully so.
The same thing happened in Afganistan, where US was only helping the Taliban in order to oppose the Russians. The same thing is happening in Iraq, where EU speaks and acts against the war in order to limit the domination of the US in the world. EU wants oil too.
And that is all fine and dandy, but continual fighting for power between US, EU and USSR while using muslim countries as the battle front have created this new, much more dangerous and unreasonable enemy, Islamia. The fact that the muslims continually benefit from these power struggles by ending up on the winning side somehow has invoked in their consciousness (through speeches at Friday prair) the will and desire for the reemergence of Caliphate. The fact that they have oil as a weapon does not help either when China and India suddenly decided to become industrial countries, thereby increasing demand for oil.
The only way to not allow Islamia to take over the world, which will be much worse than if US or EU or Russia took it over because Muslims are the most radical, unreasonable, deceitful and treacherous people on the face of the earth, is for US, EU and Russia to work together to squeeze and disarm this threat. I believe the cartoons outrage might change the opinions of Europeans sufficiently to elect representatives who would share current American policy towards the Islamia and Russians (with the Moscow cartoon exhibition) will join in as well. As long as China does not get involved, there is no doubt that "infidels" will prevail.
Remember, an enemy of your enemy is your friend.
Posted by: mosmike at February 9, 2006 12:51 AM
Two quick points before I call it a night:
- Milosevic is a bastard and a war criminal. I don't doubt that.
- As we refuse to accept the tu quoque argument from Muslims against Christians, we should also not use it as Christians and/or Westerners against Muslims.
My apologies if that comes across as terse, but the alarm clock doesn't negotiate! ;)
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 9, 2006 12:52 AM
First of all the sebrenica massacre was staged by the Muslims to get sympathy by a gullible west. Even the ultra PC BBC has written in the past this is a possibility.
Yugoslavia was broken up because Croatia wanted out. Croatia, Nazi Germany's great ally, was rewarded by Germany for its loyalty during the war. Germany was the first country to recognize Croatia. Because if you remember Germany was just reunified and it wanted to show the world it had a strong independent foreign policy and that it was a major player again. The US was at first hesitant to recognize Croatia. But the Clinton White house was more of a follower than a leader in foreign affairs. The Yugoslavian government had a legal process in place for seperation of the republics and it was ignored. The foreign western powers dictated how Yugoslavia was going to be split up. When Bosnia spererated it was natural to assume that it would be split up along ethnic lines, since the reason the republic were splitting up were based on ethnic differences. It would be natural to assume if the republics were able to go why not split up bosnia based on ethnic lines. Not so said the US. Then the cultural marxist elite that governed the White house during the Clinton years insisted Bosnia stayed together as a multicultural state and that the victims must be muslime. Even though the muslims were allied along with Croats in WWII with Germany and helped exterminate millions of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, etc.
When Serbia was bombed for what was going on in Kosovo I believe Clinton wanted to show the Muslim world that he was there friend. That seemed to work and they repaid us with 9-11. Clinton even brought in Al-queda into Bosnia.
If anyone doubts that there was ethnic cleansing in Kosovo watch this video on this site. There was ethnic cleansing. too bad it was the Serbs that were cleansed.
http://greathellas.blogspot.com/2005/01/multicultural-expressions.html
I have never felt angrieer about an issue before than this. If America bombs Serbia again I might actually go over and fight. This is a "line in the sand" issue for me.
Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at February 9, 2006 1:48 AM
Shinoliite uninformed pinko bastards such as yourself are worse than muslims. Muslims have power in the world because of people like you.
Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at February 9, 2006 1:51 AM
Lemme tell you a story of how i came "to Islam". ;) Waaaaaay back in the early 90's i would describe myself as a long haired hippie listen to pink floyd type. I will admit freely on this board that i was Pro-Palestinian. Meaning i thought that they should have a homeland. I thought of it not as Jews vs. Muslims, but rather Isreal vs. Palestine. A "nationalistic" struggle where they deserved a home. I wrote a few papers in college about it and got applauded by my liberal Professors. Then one day...............My father was visiting NYC and said 'let's go to the Museum of Art (MET), they are having a display of Medeval Spanish Art.'(i think most of you Jihad watchers know where i am going with this!!) He's from Spain and i am always interested in world history etc. So long to my suprise i find that rather than having "traditional" Spanish art like i thought it would be (catholic) it seemed to be more of a display from Syria or something! It was then and there that i learned about the Islamic conquest of Spain and the concept of 'el-andalus' and also of RECONQUISTA! ESPANA!........ GRANDE!
I learned a little of my ancestors hertiage. But that was 500 years ago! surly that has no relevance today???? SO i began buying books about Spanish & european History, which led me to the truth about A. the crusades, and B. the fact that the Muslims have been trying to take over and Islamisize Europe since 751!!!!!!!! I read about both Spain and the Ottomans and the Balkans. We Spanish got our act together but alas today the Balkans still suffers from the scars of Islamic conquest. Oh and those so-called 'albanians' are the equavalent of race traitors in my book. Now fast foward to post communist Yugoslavia 1991. this was before my 'great awakening' so i did'nt really understand the politics involved. But slowly as i read the news i began to realise that we were 'HAD' by the "bosniacks'they got the Islamic world to pressure us into supporting the Muslims against the Christians. They played the Media deftly. They do what they do now, portray the Muslims as ever-poor, ever-suffering, brown skinned (meanwhile the bosnians are white) oppressed people who are suffering ethnic cleansing and "rape camps" (ten years after it turns out those claims were Bullshit) But it was too late, the peace accords had been signed and the war was over. Which is good! I like peace, i dont like being fooled or manipulated. But then "kosovo" happened! :( although it was treated as seperate in the press from the civil war the parties involved were essentially the same. Muslim albanians vs. Christian Serbs. And guess who side we took again??? you got it! I would tell anyone who would listen that we were attacking the wrong people, but as usual most Americans could give a shit, to busy dancing to the Macarena. (i think it was popular in '99 right?) We even began 'tisk-tisking' the Russians for their oppression of (again) the poor oppressed Muslims in Chechnia. The Russians told us, rightly, to shove it up our ass. We CANNOT GET FOOLED AGAIN EVER!!!!!!!! Milosevic and the other Serb "war criminals" are heros in my opinion!
at February 9, 2006 1:53 AM
Profitsbeard: Never liked this "Clash of Civilizations" tag. For that, you need two Civilizations. Not one Civilization and one Devolution. I prefer "The Attack on Civilization".
Absolutely! The above description is guilty of one (or both) of 2 things:
1. Spin this war as one between East & West
2. Spin it as a war between Western Civilization vs. Islamic Civilization.
The first is completely false, as is evident in Thailand and India, while the second ignores Islam's 1350 years of barbarism, which hasn't altered over the millenium.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 9, 2006 2:03 AM
MataMoros great post. Your story reminds me of mine a bit. I used to be pro palestinian when I was younger because I thought of it as a nationalistic struggle and I didnt know the facts. I discovered Islam too reading about my backgrounds history. My dad would always talk about the Turks and being an immigrant who wasnt well spoken or educated I just brushed off his rants as non-sense. But when I read Greek History and the rest of the Balkans I was suprised as to how much more there was to the story. Well I am where I am now my eyes open and I know the truth. I too argued with many people about kosovo when it happened. Its amazing how many people in Canada refuse to learn the truth. I have won over a lot of people to our views. Which I strongly believe to be true but there are a lot out there that are just clueless.
Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at February 9, 2006 2:27 AM
good point Infidel Pride its more of a clash between Islam and Civilization.
Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at February 9, 2006 2:28 AM
stay informed.
http://www.balkanpeace.org/temp/tmp13.html
Posted by: samUwell at February 9, 2006 3:09 AM
pissedoffcanadian,
HA, now i know im not alone! :D I always knew the war between the Greeks and the Turks and it really steams me off! the whole 'near east' would be "byzantine" today if it were not for the Muslims warlike culture and religion. Did'nt the Greeks try to take back Constantinople "istanbullshit" from turkey in 1922 or something? only to be stopped by "enlightened" western powers??? I specifically chose the name 'MataMoros' from my families history because it means "muslimslayer" in Spanish (like MATA-dor means slayer) and many Spanish have that as a last name. It was My Great Grandmothers maiden name. I think more than any 'whiteboy' :) , we whose ancestors have suffered the most under Islamic "tolerance" (like Spanish,Serbs,Greeks,Albanians,Armenians,Bulgarians, Romanians (Vlad Dracul!!), Hungarians,
Croats, and yes even the POLES! have a duty to at least make people aware of the history of suffering and also tell people of the "general plan" that Muslims have that they feel that Europe belongs to them and they have a duty to take it by hook or by crook. It's even written in the Koran! look at the passage called 'the romans', it speaks of the Romans 'melting away' and being defeated by the rightous blah blah blah. A clear message that the Muslims must fight the "romans". But who was he speaking about? well good old Moh was so stupid he could tell the difference between the "romans" and the Greeks. As well as the fact that the Byzantine empire did consider itself to be the "eastern roman empire" So from 751 till 1918 the Muslims made it their mission to destroy the Hellenistic western civilised world. And for the most part they really did succeed......................
at February 9, 2006 3:15 AM
Anyone heard of Rade Rogic? You can find his torment and beheading in a video taken by those secular Muslims,505th Buzzim Brigade of Bosnia-Hezegovina Army.Rade was unlucky enough to get 'lost' and he lost his head in the process.
Terrible things happen in wars-war itself is an atrocity-we sure heard plenty about 'Serb atrocities' but the world is only now finding out
about the atrocities committed against Serbs.
For instance according to Western Media[BBC was big on these figures] over 200,000 people died in Bosnia. According to MUSLIM researcher whose figures will be revealed this month, the real number is nearer 100,000 nasty but hardly the Genocide claimed by 'impartial journalists.' One of the ironies of Balkans war is that Bosnian Muslims hired a JEWISH AMERICAN FIRM to publicise
their plight which it did with overwhelming success.
Few if any will have heard of the burning & killing of 3,000 Serb civilians in villages around Srebrenica - no investigation has ever been made that I know of, no Muslims hauled off to the Hague for these murders of Serbs.The killings happened before the Notorious Srebrenica
Massacre of Muslim Men & Boys which had the whole
Western World up in arms & rhetoric & righteous
indignation...Why were we only permitted to see one side painted as 'suffering angels' and the other as 'demons'?? Because that is what Clinton & Blair wanted us to see:Serbia had no oil and they were desperate to prostitute themselves[being oil whores] before the Saudis,Clinton would have given 'blow jobs'[forget Monica] to King Fard himself
as long as black gold kept flowing.
If Kosovo is lost to Serbia,the U.S,E.U. & Dhimmi
Britain will pay a terrible price for their treachery. Kosovo will almost certainly become with
Bosnia the springboard of Jihad into the heart of
Europe.
at February 9, 2006 3:15 AM
Wait a second. I'm not saying that radical islam is not a threat but if these albanian and former Yugo muslims are so crazy then how the heck did they put up with the commies for so long? Surely nothing would be more offensive to muslims than the godless commies! Than why did they not have some sort of Balkan infitada? The argument that they were violently repressed does not work because such tactics don't work against those who are eager to die for their religion anyway. So why were they not suicide bombing etc... like these guys are now-a-days? It's because in the absence of "radical islam" we don't see the jihadis. I know the concept or "Moderate islam" is taboo around here but let's think about this for a second. That's why the threat today comes from those who advocate radical islam not necessarily your average schlub on the muslim street. In the absence of an infusion of radical ideology like that which the Saudis are funding and spreading, it might be possible for this to not get TOO violent (though i'm afraid it will). I'm just saying for now we can think of balkan muslims as an example of a case where the absence of militant ideology let to a basicaly benign islamic culture. We have to stop the spread of militant ideology which means stopping the Saudis and Pakistanis from funding it and spreading it which means GET OUT OF YOUR FRIGGIN SUV and quit buying oil from the Saudis!
That said, i do favor immigration restrictions so they don't get a strong voting block. coexistence (in seperate places) may be possible
Posted by: fatnun at February 9, 2006 3:25 AM
Great posts guys. MataMoros now that I know what your name means I really like it. Yes you are right During the war in 1922 the allies did help the Turks especially the French and Italians along with the Soviets. Not only would of a big chunk of Anatolia remained Christian I do believe Greece would of been as large as Italy or Spain today. But many left because there was not much room left in the little country. Not only was the 1922 disaster a symbolic loss for western civilization. Allowing Christians to be eradicated from the lands where western philosophy began it was also the beginning of the age of ideology. WWI gave birth to Soviet Russian and the west no longer saw across civilization lines but ideological lines. And as Islam is preparing for a class of civilization all the western leaders see the world along ideological lines.
Matamoros said
" I think more than any 'whiteboy' :) , we whose ancestors have suffered the most under Islamic "tolerance" (like Spanish,Serbs,Greeks,Albanians,Armenians,Bulgarians, Romanians (Vlad Dracul!!), Hungarians,
Croats, and yes even the POLES! have a duty to at least make people aware of the history of suffering ... "
I couldnt agree more. Its funny I read this site along with my brother and we are both relieved there are others who have our views. But we are worried that most people here are people like ourselves who know about Islam because of our family history. This worries me because I really hope its others who learn about this. We already know. I get the feeling that most people on this site are of either Jewish, Iberian, or Balkan origin. Hopefully everyone in North America learns about the true history of Islam.
Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at February 9, 2006 3:48 AM
When any Nation is at War there are No Free Rides, No Innocent Civilians/citizens, and All Citizens are the Nation.
The Muslim-Islam enemies, of Israel & other kafir of the world, obviously know how to make & win a World War.
Israel & world of kafir friends, must some day, make-up its collective mind about how to do a war and one by whatever means and this one for Total Uncompromising Victory, no deals with evil, no haunting lines in sand, it's where one must totally destroy the enemy.
at February 9, 2006 4:03 AM
"Surely nothing would be more offensive to muslims than the godless commies! Than why did they not have some sort of Balkan infitada? The argument that they were violently repressed does not work because such tactics don't work against those who are eager to die for their religion anyway. So why were they not suicide bombing etc... like these guys are now-a-days? It's because in the absence of "radical islam" we don't see the jihadis. I know the concept or "Moderate islam" is taboo around here but let's think about this for a second."
-posted by fatnun
Under Tito et al, the Balkan Muslims were not as pious as the other Muslims. Mostly, it was due to ignorance such as poor knowledge of Arabic but also due to restricted travel (especially to the Middle East). If I recall correctly, at one point during Tito's reign, there were only a handful of Muslims who had even memorized the Koran in Bosnia. That is absurdly low even for an illiterate population and the Bosnians were not illiterate during Communist rule. We also need to remember that under Communist regimes where religious assembly was permitted, the meeting places were heavily monitered. Basically if an imam stepped over the line and called for the overthrow of the infidel ruler, he would "disappear". Sufism also had a strong influence in the Balkans and if you couple that with ignorance and an absent Muslim protectorate (Turkey) then the conflicts involving the Muslims and the infidel government would remain low. It just wasn't wise for the Balkan Muslims to wage war against the Serbs unless they had backup such as Turkey, the Nazis, the Croats, or NATO. If they were aware of "darura" then that would have been invoked. In Albania the mosques and churches were closed so there weren't many problems there during Communist rule. So yes, the Muslims will put up with an athiest government if there is no possible way to defeat it. Albania was extremely repressive and the Muslims were vastly outnumbered in Yugoslavia. Something similar happened in the former Muslim Soviet states, but much like the Balkans, after independence, Islam is making a comeback. Moderate Islam was not the reason why there wasn't a Balkan "intifada" during Communist rule but rather it was a combination of repression, ignorance, and unfavourable demographics.
Posted by: igor at February 9, 2006 5:07 AM
"So why were they not suicide bombing etc... like these guys are now-a-days? It's because in the absence of "radical islam" we don't see the jihadis. I know the concept or "Moderate islam" is taboo around here but let's think about this for a second."
what was said above about Communism is true, they never put up with any shit so they basically stomped out any BS. China's western Xing-hua province has a large "hui" Muslim population. Do you hear about "intifada" in China? OH HELL NO! they stomp all that shit. But they also have no freedom for anyone else either. As to your speculation about no "jihadis" in modern Balkans you could'nt be more wrong. I watched a tape of the Bosnian leaders in 1992 speaking to supports and the supports giving a rally cry in response. Guess what that response was? you got it. ALLAHU AKBAR! in 1992 no less! They had Martyr soldiers all throughout the Bosnian conflict with the green headbands. You'd think such fanatical brave warriors would be hard to defeat would'nt you? but as usual they totally sucked ass when it came to a stand up fight with the serbs and the Croats. They'll run onto a bus of children with a bomb but never face real men. Towards the nearing of the Dayton peace accords it began leaking in the press that middle eastern "Mujahadeen" were to be found among the ranks of the Bosnians. Then as the Serbs did'nt want to get killed because the borders had already been decided they began to ease up on the Muslims. So they tried to launch a "counter attack" thinking that they could grab land promised to the serbs. As usual it failed. Both countries were under a boycott of weapons and trade yet the Muslims whined that they could'nt fight well because they were under an "arms imbargo" (like somehow the Serbs were'nt, right?) But the truth as usual is that no Muslims army has been able to defeat ANY other Army in the last 200 years. Maybe their moon-god
has abandoned them??? Or maybe they have'nt sacraficed enough goats in Mecca?!? :)
at February 9, 2006 8:18 AM
Shinoliite uninformed pinko bastards such as yourself are worse than muslims. Muslims have power in the world because of people like you.
"Uninformed pinko bastard." That just made my day.
Here's a thought-- why insult when you can inform? Got articles? Got links? I'd love to read them and make up my own mind.
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 9, 2006 10:10 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I've got a feeling that at some stage in the not too distant future Slobodan Milosevic may be considered a freedom-fighter. The question is "Will our children be living as dhimmis in an islamic world by then or will our civilisation have overcome / defeated (the threat of) islam?"
Posted by: disillusioned_german at February 9, 2006 5:52 PM
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