Good to see Bernard Bot wasn't Gulled by Abdullah into turning the other cheek.

Posted by: Interested at March 13, 2006 11:23 AM

I think Europe needs to give up its double standards. If we were to criticize Islam in the open, other religions should be open for criticism too. However, anti-semitism should still be banned because it is simply racism against Jews. Holocaust denial; I quite don't get it and seems to be a double standard really. They need to get rid of the laws that make it a crime. Like any part of history it should be open for examination and substantiated by proof, which we have in plenty.

There shall be nothing sacred and beyond critique.

Posted by: csa bill at March 13, 2006 12:41 PM

Talk about Islamic hubris. Does the gormless Abdullah Gul figure the rest of the world knows nothing about Turkist state support for the publication of Mein Kampf and the popularity of the Protocols of Zion?

Posted by: waterdragon52 at March 13, 2006 12:47 PM

First,let the Islamic Blasphemi law protect Christians in Saudi Arabia,Pakistan,and in other Islamic countries,where, a religious tract contaning 'Jesus is son of God' is punishable by death to one who distributes it to a Muslim.In Pakisthan alone, hundreds of Christians have been butchered for their beliefs,under the Shariya Blasphemi law.First,let the Muslims keep their house in order,and then dictate to others.

Posted by: rafia at March 13, 2006 1:01 PM

The E. U. will not, and should not, permit Turkey admission. It is not an ectoplasmic shape known as "Turkey" that was being supported all those decades, and that was allowed to become a member of NATO, but rather a subset of Turkey, the secularists of Turkey, the Turkish army and the Defense Ministry in Ankara. But too many, during the Cold War, were willing to believe that Turkey was permanently on the road to ever more secularism, ever more Kemalism. Too many thought that the Cult of Ataturk -- and not everyone recognized that it was merely a replacement for the only conceivable alternative, the Cult of Muhammad -- was itself permanent.

It was not to be. The beneficiaries of Kemalism may now be about one-quarter of the population. But they were never sufficiently grateful to continue to push Islam to the side of Turkish life. They never realized, for example, that instead of forever pretending that the Armenian genocide did not take place, they should have worked to have the question forthrightly studied, and once studied recognized, but recognized not as some fault inherent in "Turks" but rather, the result of Islamic teachings, teachings which also explain the massacres of the Greeks in Smyrna, the anti-Greek violence in Istanbul in 1955(in which 4,000 Infidel-owned businesses were destroyed), and the World-War-II era legislation, the Varlik Vergesi, that was in effect a kind of Jizyah imposed on non-Muslims (and on this, see the conclusions of a study by Faik Okte, who had been put in charge of collecting the tax). Kemalism itself was partly an attempt to glorify "the Turk," and instead of forced islamization, the ever-diminishing (through genocide, as with the Armenians, through massacres and riots, as with the less numerous Greeks who now, in a population of 70 million, amount to a few thousand, and through the creation of a dangerously threatening environment, as with the Jews, whose supposed benign treatment in the Ottoman Empire has been a staple of Turkish self-preening, and self-justification, and has proven in the past to be usefulwith quite a number of people influential in Washington. One staple was the refuge found, and given, within the Ottoman Empire to Jews expelled from Spain: "look at how we gave them refuge in Salonika when they were hounded out by Christians in Spain" is a statement one hears endlessly. But what does not hear are several other relevant observations. First, Jews may have been forced to leave Spain, but they were welcome in Amsterdam, also part of Western Christendom, where their presence, and influence in Dutch society at its very best, can be observed visually in the paintings of Rembrandt,(not that paintings should be studied as sociological artifacts), and in the fact of Spinoza and the beginnings, in Holland, of the Enlightenment. Second, the Ottomans who settled Jews in Salonika were replacing one Jewish community -- that had been forcibly removed prior to this -- with another. Third, the Ottoman Muslims never regarded the Jews as a threat; they were too small, and too weak, and their talents as traders, interpreters, dragomans, or as court physicians (a plaque alluding to the tradition of Jewish physicians for successive padishahin can be found in the Topkapi complex itself), and though Jews were alllowed to live, as Jews, in the Ottoman lands, it was as Jews, or as non-Muslims, that they also suffered from the usual disablitites that dhimmis could expect. In the European territories of the Ottomans, this in places included being subject to the devshirme. For more on the unvarnished history of the treatment of Jews, see Joseph Hacker's essay (the best one) in the Braude and Lewis collection.

During the Cold War American governments saw Turkey as a provider of stalwart troops. And so they were. They were stalwart because they were fighting their historic enemy, Russia, in its current embodiment, the Soviet Union. Some saw Turkey as permanently on the path to Westernization, the logical end result of the systematic constraints placed on Islam as a political and social force. Still others -- those who backed that short-lived and essentially worthless And they were, as John Foster Dulles was pleased to consider, part of the world of Islam, and Islam was "a bulwark against Communism." Turks fought bravely and stolidly in Korea (they also left behind what has now become tens of thousands of Korean converts to Islam).

The Cold War is over. Those once-valuable listening posts, those bases, are not quite so necessary. And in any case, they are not quite so useful -- we were not allowed to use such a base for that famous fourth division that never arrived in Anbar Province from the north, because Turkey "surprised" the Pentagon by not permitting it. Not the last of the surprises. In the past Richard Perle and Douglas Feith have both been registered agents for Turkey. The Turkey they saw consisted largely of those wine-and-dining Turkish generals in Ankara. This was in the pre-Erdogan days. But now Kemalism is shown to be transient, subject to constant wearing-down, and Islam turns out to be permanent. Wherever a country has been Muslim, there will always be far more adherents of the primitive consolations of a Total Regulation of Life and Complete Explanation of the Universe that Islam can at least theoretically provide, and always far fewer prepared to jettison it completely, so that at least in one's own family-line there is much less danger of it reoccurring, a symptom of mental disarray, in one's children or grandchildren. Unless one takes steps to distance oneself permanently from it, it remains -- an emotional and quasi-intellectual temptation (imagine the horror of educated Iranian exiles living in, say, Los Angeles, to discover that their shy and awkward son has -- and the Internet evidence they have uncovered is clear -- to Islam, the very thing which you fled, but still insisted, out of some kind of misplaced piety, to identify with, still called yourself "Muslims" because you felt you had to call yourself something and, besides, you kept dreaming that Khomeini was an aberration, that Islam, the benign Islam of your imaginings For you still can't bring yourself to come to grips with the whole thing in the manner of, say, Azam Kamguian or Ali Sina or other Iranian apostates. In much the same way, those Turkish beneficiaries of secularism were insufficiently energetic and vigilant, and the party of Islam never let up, and is recovering ground, cunningly and surely.

The West cannot ignore all the tell-tale signs. It cannot ignore the power of Erdogan, or the attacks on this or that secular university rector. It cannot ignore the fact that the Turksih movie doing boffo depicts American soldiers in Iraq (the same ones who got rid of the Saddam Hussein regime, and then stayed only to rebuild schools and hospitals, and hand out candy and soccer balls, and to get a rudimentary democracy going, and -- absurdly -- to prevent civil war) as "worse than Nazis," and to show a "Jewish doctor" who trafficks in organs taken from prisoners put to death, according to the movie, in Abu Ghraib. And if that same Turkey has at the top of the best-seller lists "Mein Kampf," and if it furthermore has all kinds of politicians making the most absurd anti-American, anti-Israel, and now, added to them, anti-European remarks, then one would be a fool to ignore all this.

And it is not being ignored. The same Abdullah Gul, who works for the same Erdogan, both of whom have absurdly described Europe as being a "Christian club" -- even as they belong to the "Muslim club" of the O.I.C. -- are now trying, despite not yet being admitted to the E.U., and one would think they would attempt to be on their best behavior, to demand changes in the right of freedom of speech as understood within Europe.

Well, perhaps it is fitting after all. By what Joyce with his Anna Livia Plurabelle would call a commodius vicus, the attempt by Turks to undo the rights of the Englightenment take us back to the Amsterdam of Rembrandt and Spinoza. Spinoza, the man who helped give Enlightenment ideas their earliest formulation, an Enlightenment that led, inexorably some might think, to the rights of the individuals, including the right of free speech. That right, which is only to be limited in this country when it is used to incite immminent and lawless violence, and in Europe where, for quite obvious and justifiable reasons, denyiing that the mass murder of Jews (the "Holocaust") took place is not permitted in a few places (e.g., Germany and Austria), is essential to Western freedom.

Yet this Abdullah Gul, representing a primitive and permanently menacing view of the universe, dares even now, when one might think Turkey would we walking on eggs, to demand a change in the rights protected by European countries, and by the European Community.

The request is absurd. Even daring to make the request is disgusting, and telling.

Posted by: Hugh at March 13, 2006 1:01 PM

Why do the western countries tolerate this nonsense. Turkey should not be allowed anywhere near the EU. Over the years the Turkish people have turned away form Kemalisam (Attaturks vision) and now is an Islamic state waiting at the doors of the EU, just like the Barbarians who destroyed Rome.
History repeats itself if we are not vigilant.

Posted by: faqi at March 13, 2006 1:46 PM

waterdragon52,

Can you tell me more about the Turkish state support for the publication of Mein Kampf? I haven't come across this anywhere, but I'd be interested to know more.

I've been following this story in the Turkish press. Zaman insists that Christianity and Judaism enjoy special privileges in Europe, but the current state of affairs there shows otherwise. Where do they get these ideas?

Posted by: Jen at March 13, 2006 2:32 PM

Jenn:

I am only repeating what I read elsewhere, just this morning actually, but cannot recall the source.

You might bet lucky checking out the archives at memri.org. re the dissemination of Mein Kampf in Turkey. I gather it's distributed at such a modest price as to suggest a subsidy to the publishers.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at March 13, 2006 4:31 PM

Thanks, waterdragon52, I'll check memri.org. Just took a quick look, but will need more time. The popularity of Mein Kampf definitely suggests another factor at work than simply a love of reading, not a favourite passtime in Turkey.

Meantime, just to keep stirring the pots of antiSemitism and Armenian genocide denials (when it can tear some time away from American-bashing), Zaman Online today published the following:

Zionist Jews Espouse Ahmadinejad

20 Methods Armenian Gangs Used to Torture Turks

Before reading those, my advice is to take your blood pressure meds first, and then look at it as a necessary exercise to remind us of Zaman's utter unaccountability, deliberate provocation, and shoddy, shoddy reporting. A sad excuse for objective journalism.

If Gul gets his information from the Turkish press, no wonder his thinking has gone a tad astray.

Posted by: Jen at March 13, 2006 5:43 PM

I hope this will take the EU a further step from letting Turkey in - ever!

Posted by: Lili at March 13, 2006 8:43 PM

Oops, that link above should have read "Anti-Zionist Jews ... "

Posted by: Jen at March 13, 2006 9:34 PM

It is pathetic that the followers of the great and perfect religion of Islam are so insecure that they must make these ridiculous demands of Western governments. A dogma as spectacular and indisputably true as Islam should have no trouble surviving criticism, ridicule, or contempt. Surely allah is up to any challenge. Why would an "all-powerful" deity who preordaines every life, death, resurrection, and afterlife right down to the nanosecond require the assistance of lowly humans in his divine design?

Whenever I find myself stunned at the boundless effrontery of muslims, which for some reason still amazes me, I recall one of the first things I learned about Islam many years ago. I was studying early Islamic history and muhammad's exploits, which began as armed raids on caravans to steal valuables and livestock and as he attracted more acolytes, his mundane bedouin banditry expanded and he began forcibly converting or massacring entire tribes. One of the first truly horrific episodes in muhammad's career as a homicidal thief and self-annointed prophet was the slaughter of an unarmed village of Jews who refused to accept Islam. Muhammad told his savage minions to kill the "enemies of Islam" although they were minding their own business, bothering no one, threatening no one. Their only crime was to reject Islam.

This simple story was an epiphany for me; it exposed the total irrationality of Islam and the greedy megalomaniac who inspired it. It took me days to digest muhammad's concept of "enemy"--- anyone who rejects Islam. As I studied further, I learned that self-defense against pillaging muslim armies was considered aggression against Islam. The only hope of salvation for the hapless victims in muhammad's path of death and destruction was to surrender and forfeit all assets, and accept Islam. This irrational, totally insane mindset is alive and well over 1300 years later among "inherently superior" muslims.

Posted by: Susanp at March 14, 2006 12:37 AM

Some think the Cold War is over and in a sense it is but it has turned and gone underground. Notice how the Russians are becoming more and more in bed with the Arabs.

Read the "Red Horizon" and learn how Arafat was a pawn of Russia.

I could go on and on about Russia. Don't underestimate them and their geopolitical objectives.

They have conned us into reducing our military, but the latest news is Russia is rapidly rebuilding their forces while we are preoccupied with the War On Terror. Brilliant strategy, except I see it, but can't do a damn thing about it!!

Posted by: learjet0450 at March 14, 2006 11:49 PM

Isn't this the logical extension of Europe's misguided laws to curtail "hate speech"? Aren't Europeans setting themselves up to be accused of injustice towards Muslims or any other segment of society who claim offense, or who self-determine that another's expression is "hateful" towards them or their beliefs?

This is request from Turkey is just one of the clumps of mud you're going to slide past along the slippery slope these anti-"Hate speech" laws have created.

Posted by: jsla at March 15, 2006 8:52 PM