Sounds to me like islam is scared of competition.

Posted by: freewoman at March 22, 2006 5:47 PM

This article is more proof that Islam can not be a religion from God.

Irrespective of your personal belief regarding the existence of a deity, a religion that must rely on the police powers of the state to enforce membership proves in itself that the religion tenets are no stronger than the men who enforce these tenets.

For those that do believe a religion is truly given from God, a God who possesses awesome powers over the universe, God does not then need mere mortals to enforce belief in Him for God has the power to lead men to Him.

Posted by: Lisa at March 22, 2006 5:48 PM

Lisa,
WELL SAID....

Could it be Islam is from, oh, I don't know,..... SATAN?

(Shamelessly stolen from another JWer post paying homage to SNL's Church Lady)

Posted by: No_Mooselimbs at March 22, 2006 6:12 PM

No_Mooselimbs

There is no shame and no stealing from this JW post (only RS has the copyright to material herein), but I do commend you from acknowledging the author of that post.

Posted by: Lisa at March 22, 2006 6:23 PM

Algeria is, like Egypt, a stratokleptocracy, a word that first appeared at JW, invented to describe those regimes, in such countries, where a thieving (kleptos) military (stratos) ruling class runs things for its own benefit. The FLN still runs Algeria; the tutelary spirits are Boumedienne and Ben Bella.

But in Algeria, along with the Arabs, a very large number of Berbers, also live. And Berbers live in France as well. And those Berbers are keenly aware that before the Arabs arrived, this was Berber territory. And Islam encourges looking constantly backwards, for one is stuck in a rut, and that rut is what was said and done, or thought to be said and done, round about 620 and 630, and then 650 and 660 A.D., and then a century or two or three for Islam's shakedown cruise, until everything was just as it should be, in the eyes of the Qur'anic commentators, and the gates of ijtihad were shut, and the cry was "all thoughts aboard that are getting aboard" and no more thoughts were to be allowed on beyond the original, now codified, and as rigid a creed as possible when, to its body of thought, rigor mortis sets in. E la nave va -- the ship of Islam set sail, or rather, because there was no water, simply sat there, stranded, in a desert of its own choice, the desert it carried with it, a desert both inherited and of its own making.

Muslims, just like Japanese businessmen, or faddists at American business schools, look to Best Practices. And what are Best Practices in Islam? They are the practices, they are the acts, the words, the silences, of Muhammad himelf, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil. If he did it, if he said it, if he permitted others to do or say it by remaining silent and not condemning or contradicting, why then it was right for All Time, for All Mankind. That is what Believers in Islam mean when they talk about Best Practices. They abhor the new; bida, or innovation -- not in the trivial sense of new gewgaws, the products of others, which of course may and should be exploited for the wellbeing of Islam, the furtherance of Islam -- is to be deplored.

In a mental universe like this, where someone from 1350 years ago is the Perfect Man and then, along with an uncreated and immutable text (even if that text is in many places simply incomprehensible, or was until Christoph Luxenberg came along), Muslims will naturally wnat to look backwards, to remember or summon up with greatest interest what happened in the days of Muhammad and the Four Rightly-Guided Caliphs, and for Shi'a, what happened to Hussein and Ali, and woe, woe, woe, is us. And if, in addition, whatever of civilizational interest was achieved, whatever products of the artistic or scientific impulse might, in the first few centuries of the Islamic conquest, have been created and must be harped on, in a constant self-reassurance, in a comical and exaggerated insistence on the greatness of "Islamic civlization" that does not withstand either scrutiny, or comparison with, not just the West, but China, India, and the pre-Columbian civlizations of America that are more and more being revealed to have been more impressive than whatever was "Islamic" in Islamic civilization. At long last it is becoming clear that during the first few centuries of Islamic conquest, when there were still large numbers of Christians and Jews in the Middle East, in North Africa, and Spain, and that many of the most immportant achievements, including the translation of Greek texts forgotten in the West, were entirely the work of such Jewish and Christian translators, and the handful of famous intellectual figures in Islam, when examined, always turn out to have been either non-Muslim, or a generation or two away from being non-Muslims (so still raised in an intellectual environment of some non-Muslim mental freedom), or if Muslim from a Muslim family, than very likely a heretic, a freethinker, like ar-Razi.

Now we come to North Africa, peopled once by Berbers, and a land where the Arabs invaded, and with Islam, the vehicle wherever it goes of cultural, linguistic, and political imperialism, the imperialism of the Arabs, who as they islamized peoples, also arabized them. For little Muslim children in Pakistan or Indonesia want desperately to be Arabs, to have an Arab lineage, but no Arab wishes to be a Pakistani or an Indonesian. No Arab wishes to be a Berber or a Kurd, and in the past, a good many Kurds and Berbers were persuaded to drop their non-Arab idneities, and to think of themselves as Arabs. How many of those Algerian "Arabs" in fact are Berbers, and do not realize it, and would be furious to find that out? Yet it is possible to find out, for there are certain DNA markers (see the results of genetic inquiries in Tunisia, by French investigators, including Dr. Semana, some years ago) that are linked to Berbers and Berber ancestry.

In Algeria, it is primarily the Berbers who are the converts to Christianity. It is the Berbers who, in France, most readily adopt to French ways, and who join such small, but signficant groups as "maghrebins laiques." For it is at least possible for non-Arab Muslims, who experience Arab contempt for non-Arabs, for their languages and cultures, who are able to see, if only it is pointed out and not smothered by the Arab Muslims who spend fortunes, trying to prevent this intellectual awakening by non-Arabs tired of having their own local customs, languages, and pre-Islamic or non-Islamic elements in their culture (as in Indonesia) simply regarded with contempt by Arabs. The Arabs say: "don't listen to the Infidels when they raise this issue, they are only trying to divide us, they are whispering the whispers of Shaytan." But we Infidels don't have to say a thing. The more advanced non-Arab Muslims can look at the treatment of the Kurds by Arabs, at the treatment of black African Muslims by Arabs, at the treatment of Berbers by Arabs (it was only recently, after decades of unrest, including riots in Tizi-Ouzou, that the right of Berbers to use their own language, Tamizaght, was finally recognized, reluctantly, by the Arab stratokleptocrats).

Of course the Arabs in Algeria are worried about Christianization. They are worried about it in the same way that they worry that Berbers in France, who start to read Kateb Yacine, the Berber writer who refused to write in Arabic, and denounced the Arab masters of the Berbers, the Arab supremacists, whenever he could, will get ideas. But some of them alredy have, and many more of them should. Why is there such a difference between the Berbers and the Arabs? Why do the Berbers, or some of them, actually integrate into French society when the Arabs seldom do? Is it no for the same reason that the Kurds have a chance to make a decent state for themselves, and offer Americans unfeigned gratitude quite different from what the Arabs, both Sunni and Shi'a, in Iraq offer? Why does one know, with a certainty, that if American troops seized Darfur and the southern Sudan, in the only move that will save the lives of people in both places from the attacks, the deliberate starvation, the looting, rapes, and mass murders, carried out by Arab Muslms, the Muslims in Darfur would, in numbers, if there were missionaries, throw off the beleif-system of their Arab masters -- and so, if things are done rightly, would many of those non-Arabs upon whom Islam was inflicted, a century or a thousand years ago, and which as part of the islamization caused them to take Arab names and phony Arab lineages, to look to 7th century Arabia for their guide, to read this Qur'an only in Arabic where possible, to memorize hundreds or thousands of verses in a language they either did not understand, or understood most imperfectly, a cultural and linguistic imperialism stronger than anything any European power ever imposed.

And that is one reason why the government of Algeria, the corrupt generals and the handful of technocrats (also corrupt) they hire, are worried about the appeal of Christianity. They should be. Even Muslims, but especially the non-Arab Muslims in North Africa, and elsewhere, are becoming, as they learn more -- and they could be learning much more -- more keenly aware of the idea that Islam, whatever its universalist pretensions, is the Arab national religion.

And why should Berbers in Algeria wish to continue to believe in the Arab national religion, when it stunts cultural achievement, limits artistic expression, discourages free and skeptical inquiry, and offers nothing like what the French language, French literature, French "Que scais-je?" offers?

Yesterday, all over the world, was la Journee de la Francophonie. Yes, if ever the French had a mission, it is first to halt all Muslim migration to France, to reverse it, and then to show the Berbers, for a start, that between the poverty of Islam, the Arab religion, and the French language, the "universal language" of Rivarol, with a universal vocation that makes the Arab Muslim enterprise look ridiculous, for it offers not only French, but through the French, all of European, and indeed all of Western culture -- a superior culture.

French, or Arabic? Christianity, or Islam? World civilization, with art, and free and skeptical inquiry, or Total Regulation of Life, and the habit of mental submission? No contest. None.

Posted by: Hugh at March 22, 2006 6:25 PM

Lisa, too funny, I shamelessly stole it from you!!
Alot of my vernacular is from that SNL era...my heydey years (and SNL's IMHO) before I had kids, when I could actually stay awake until midnight.

Posted by: No_Mooselimbs at March 22, 2006 6:49 PM

Of course, the "prior license" clause in the bill means that only pre-existing churches are allowed. No new church construction, let alone synagogue construction, is to be allowed.

Islamic civilization would be a good idea.

chsw

Posted by: chsw at March 22, 2006 6:53 PM

The Religion of Tolerance Strikes Again.

Lisa great points. Also Lisa and No_Mooselimbs .. what an enjoyable exchange!

Posted by: Daisytoo at March 22, 2006 6:59 PM

Daisytoo,
I answered your compliment to me at the end of here http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010648.php#comments
Sometime you gotta keep things light because this site can leave you really bummed out....or hoppin' mad....or thoroughly disgusted....or fill in the blank.
Mostly, though, it's been quite an education.
I watch/read the news with 'he/she gets it'(Michelle Malkin) or 'he/she doesn't get it' (Bill O'Reilly)now and work to get the JW word out and try not to sound like a wack-job. Robert and Hugh are great people to emulate.

Posted by: No_Mooselimbs at March 22, 2006 7:23 PM

An older link, to show what they are scared of:

http://www.meforum.org/article/104

"Christianity Is Life"

The Islamist campaign of violence in Algeria has turned some Muslims, especially Berbers, away from Islam and toward Christianity, reports the Algiers daily Al-Yawm in late December 2000, as reprinted in Courrier International, January 4-10, 2001, p. 29. The following extracts are translated from the French.

In Kabylie, people of all ages are converting to Christianity.

In certain towns and villages of Greater Kabylie, there is at least one church, as for example at Ouadhias, Draa Benkhedda, Ain el-Hammam, and Boghni. In the latter village, for instance, two churches have opened their doors during the last two years. Although the original builders of these two churches had worked in absolute secrecy, the number of citizens who have embraced Christianity has grown rapidly. The [Protestant] church of Ouadhias has played an important role in the proliferation of the number of conversions in Kabylie, and it is considered the Mother Church, never having ceased its activities, even after [Algeria's] independence [1962] and the departure of the French and humanitarian missionaries.

At a ceremony which we witnessed, things begin with prayers, the invocation of God, and religious chants in three languages: Amazigh (a Berber language), French, and Arabic. After the sermon, one ends with prayers, some of which are for the healing of the sick.

The media have played a great part in the conversions in Kabylie, the majority of radio stations have a strong following in this region. The faithful whom we met have confirmed that information had, in their view, an important role in the legitimization of Christian doctrines. Like Saïd –who confessed that he listens a lot to [the French station] Radio Monte Carlo and particularly its popular broadcasts in Amazigh. As for Slimane, he declares that "80 percent of the reasons which impelled me towards Christianity came from Radio Monte Carlo." There are also other radio stations such as "Miracle Channel" (7SAT) [a satellite channel], and most of the faithful confirmed that they listen to these stations which broadcast the Christian message throughout the world.

Another reason for these conversions lies in the healing and nursing, which pushed a number of people towards Christianity. When we asked Saïd, 28, the reason for his conversion, he explained that he was suffering with asthma and hospitalized several times. Then a friend advised him to convert. After his release from hospital, Saïd made his way to the church and began frequenting it regularly, every Sunday, for two months. "I was healed and I have not taken any medicine since." The same reason was invoked by Noureddine who came to Christianity for "medical reasons." Rachid, the [Protestant] minister of the church, declares for his part that: "I have healed many whose faith was strong."

Of course, doubts are legitimate. Were people with chronic diseases healed? When we questioned the person responsible for the church at Ouadhias about the conversions, he replied that there were more and more every day, his church alone celebrating 50 baptisms per year.

The deterioration of the image of Islam during the crisis has played its part in this rise of conversions to Christianity and the adoption of its principles. What is happening and what has happened in Algeria, such as the massacres and killings in the name of Islam,1 has [sic] led many, when asked what the difference, in their view, was between Islam and Christianity, to declare: "Christianity is life, Islam is death." For Samia, a secondary school pupil, the proof of the difference between Islam and Christianity was the mixing and relationship between the sexes, the former forbidding it, and the latter allowing it.

As to the means used by the Churches to spread their faith, there is the distribution of Bibles in three languages, Arabic, French, and Amazigh, and video- and audio-cassettes on the life of the Messiah, son of Mary, translated into Amazigh. As to activities in general in the Great Kabylie, and at Ouadhias in particular, Pastor Djamel told us that "the faithful meet every Thursday and every Friday, which are the days of rest [the Algerian weekend is Thursday and Friday], make friends through personal contacts, helping each other in all walks of life, the family, school and work."

Posted by: Fjordman at March 22, 2006 7:31 PM

When it comes to Islam, no Muslim should renounce it.He will be killed as per the Koran.
but ,when the Muslims convert others to their religion, they advertise everwhere, stating that even after Sept.11 killings,so many people from USA have converted to Mohamedanism (don't mention Islam),and Islam is the fastest growing religion. This is made possible because, we are lenient and treat every one as a free citizen.They go to our prisons,and entice all dangerous convicts to Mohamedanism,,by promissing them a better life,after their release. Shoe Bomber Reed was converted to Islam, to do that shameless job . In schools and Univercities, our girls are enticed by the Muslim Boys,and gadually brainwash them into Islam.
Islam is like a death trap
They sweet-talk you,and will be so kind and concerned with you,till you go inside that Death trap.
Once you go inside and convert to Islam,and latter realise that what ever they told you is a lie ,and your life is a nightmare,and want to comeout of the trap- the door will be shut,and you cannot do that,as renoucing Islam is punishable by death. Your children,if any will be taken out from you,and you will be in house arrest.
Every one should see the movie called "not without my daughter'-a true life story of an American women,converted to Islam by her Muslim Boyfrend,and latter used to beat her daily,and used her as a baby- machine,after taking her to his native. country.

Posted by: rafia at March 22, 2006 8:01 PM

Isn't the death threat for apostasy enough?

They now need to warn people not to even tempt Mohammedans to sign their own death warrants?

"Muslims leaving Islam" must be a growing problem if they need to legislate against it so overtly.

The same with the Afghanis putting their own apostate on trial.

Islam is looking more and more like an hysterical harridan trying to scream her customer back into bed.

The wilder the noises and more violent the threats, the less and less appealing Islam must seem, even to its own.

It takes courage to leave this cult.

And nothing but cowardice to remain.

A bitter truth Muslims must face.

Posted by: profitsbeard at March 22, 2006 8:42 PM

rafia: "They sweet-talk you,and will be so kind and concerned with you,till you go inside that Death trap. Once you go inside and convert to Islam,and latter realise that what ever they told you is a lie ,and your life is a nightmare,and want to comeout of the trap- the door will be shut.."

Why am I reminded of the lyrics to the Eagles song "Hotel California"?;

"Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
'Relax,' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave..."

Posted by: Caroline at March 22, 2006 9:00 PM

Hugh: "Even Muslims, but especially the non-Arab Muslims in North Africa, and elsewhere, are becoming, as they learn more -- and they could be learning much more -- more keenly aware of the idea that Islam, whatever its universalist pretensions, is the Arab national religion."

Fjordman: "when asked what the difference, in their view, was between Islam and Christianity, to declare: "Christianity is life, Islam is death."

profitsbeard: "Islam is looking more and more like an hysterical harridan trying to scream her customer back into bed"

Yes. Yes. And oh my gosh Yes.

Posted by: Daisytoo at March 22, 2006 9:18 PM

Yes, methinks this religion doth protest too much: 'we have over a billion followers, we're the fastest-growing religion'.

If the 'kill apostates' rule disappeared tomorrow, how many would be left?

Posted by: Lili at March 22, 2006 9:33 PM

No_Mooselimbs,

Thanks for pointing me back in the direction of your response. I agree that it's a good idea to take this serious problem as lightly (and seriously) as possible. Like you, I also spend a lot of time educating myself about Islamofascism; I've been immersed. I'm so grateful to Robert and Hugh for their diligence to truth and freedom ... both top drawer priorities of mine! It's not easy to be in this position is it? After all, we have had war declared upon us .. the enemy is clear .. we are fighting back .. and the enemy remains unnamed. Now that's crazy making. I wish I could say that I don't mind at all being perceived as a 'wack job' .. but sometimes I do mind. I've learned that if I listen long enough (and I have loads of opportunities since I live in what could be considered the World Capital of Moonbats) to my more sanctimonious acquaintances -- (apart from THEIR obvious wackiness :) -- the same concerns about Islam emerge .. albeit cloaked in condescending concerns and wrong conclusions about causation .. the concerns are common ground and I am consistently straightforward, not condescending ... and over time, some have dropped their cloaks and considered things a bit more straightforwardly in my presence. That helps keep me going!

Posted by: Daisytoo at March 22, 2006 9:46 PM

Daisytoo,
It's nice to have kindred spirits while kicking sand in the face of Islamobots!!!
Gotta get me a nice blue scarf!

Posted by: No_Mooselimbs at March 22, 2006 10:17 PM

Lili-

Without the "kill apostates rule", my estimate of remaining Muslims worldwide would be about 21,103.

Most of them out-of-work mullahs, imams and ayatollahs.

And three women in Gaza who like to yell a lot.

Posted by: profitsbeard at March 22, 2006 10:19 PM

I must say one of your better efforts Hugh. In the middle of the essay, I began reading it as if I was an Algerian Berber sitting on the fence. You made a compelling case.

Posted by: Cornelius at March 22, 2006 10:29 PM

The Algerians had a brutal civil war in 90s ostensibly to prevent a takeover by Islamists. It appears that in the current phase of history no matter if generals or mullahs are in charge, Islamism itself will not be denied. The verdict is already in; the best course for the rest of us is to isolate ourselves from the Muslims and let them sort out their problems themselves. We'll look in after about 15 to 20 years. After all they will be needing food which they can't produce, medicines they can't manufacture and jobs which their autarkies can't generate. I expect them to be hitting a brick wall within 10 years.

Posted by: ivan at March 22, 2006 10:50 PM

Remember how Marxists used to say all the existing communist dictatorships didn't represent true Marxism? One wonders how long similar excuses will be accepted for "true" Islam.

Are we supposed to believe that the Algerian Muslims who made this law don't represent true Islam? And the Afghan judge dangling the apostate's death sentence now, is that judge not representative? And what about the 'moderate' Sistani of Iraq, whom prominent left and right American intellectuals once suggested for a Nobel -- Sistani who is on record supporting the idea that non-Muslims are spiritually filthy and haram, and who says gays should be killed in the worst possible way? Or the 80,000 U.K. Muslims who according to recent polls agree with the 7/7/05 terror attacks in London? Well, that's "only" 5% of U.K. Muslims, a "tiny" minority that doesn't represent the "true" Islam, right? I know, it's worrisome that half a million UK Muslims, about 30%, apparently believe Western civilization should be replaced with Sharia, though not by violent means, thank goodness. As long as we become dhimmis by a fair vote, a few decades from now when Muslim demography will give them a majority, how can we really complain, right?...anyway it's considered bad taste, not to say dangerous, and we'll stop getting invited to dinner parties, so shhhhh...

Posted by: www.islamquest.blogspot.com at March 23, 2006 12:44 AM

Okay, someone explain to me - why was it a good idea to prevent the FIS from coming to power? Same question on Afghanistan - why was it a good idea to replace the Taliban with another Shariah regime, as opposed to completing what the Soviets started?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at March 23, 2006 1:43 AM

"Muslims leaving Islam" must be a growing problem if they need to legislate against it so overtly.

Posted by: thomas ato at March 23, 2006 5:01 AM

Infidel Pride, the difference between the FIS and the Algerian generals is the difference between mass murdering maniacs and mere thieves. The Algerian generals killed people when they got in their way; the GIA murdered whole villages, cutting the throats of women and children, pretty much for the fun of it. Granted that I would want to be ruled by neither, I still can see a difference. The worrying fact, however, about this law, seems to be that the generals are so spooked by the past years of Islamist violence, that they are willing to feed the shark by effectively allowing the Islamists to persecute Christians (because the piece of paper is one thing, and the effect it will have on the ground is quite another). It is Churchill's classic reasoning of feeding the crocodile in the hope that it will eat you last. As Muslims, the generals are hardly more credible than the self-worshipping Gheddafi, but this threadbare attempt to wrap themselves in the green flag shows that they are seriously afraid that if Christianity spread any further, they would be blamed and there would be another civil war. And that interferes with the business of transfering the national assets to Swiss numbered accounts.

Posted by: Paolo at March 23, 2006 7:21 AM

I thought this was the more 'moderate' Algerian Islamic government. Hmmmm?

Why don't they lock up the Christians - and then these captives can spread Christianity throughout their prisons.

Jesus ‘means’ love my friends..... Probably just what Islam needs!

Posted by: Pass It On at March 23, 2006 7:26 AM

Infidel Pride,

The difference between the Taliban and Karzai is that the former allowed its territory to be used to repeatedly attack America, while the latter allows America to use its territory to keep the former at bay; the former destroyed the Bhuddist antiquities at Bhimayan, while the latter is having them reconstructed; the former banned music, kite-flying and virtually all other forms of entertainment while the latter relaxed these restrictions; the former outlawed the education of girls, while the latter removed such a blatantly discriminatory edict; the former outlawed women working outside the home, while the latter has embraced the productive potential of women...need I go on.

There are very troubling aspects to the nature of the society emerging in Afghanistan, but to seriously claim there is no difference between the policies of the present government and those of the Taliban is to willfully ignore a myriad of facts on the ground.

Posted by: Cornelius at March 23, 2006 8:57 AM

Time to call a halt to pluralism! It's a one-way process.

Posted by: Mark Alexander at March 23, 2006 10:24 AM

Sounds to me like islam is scared of competition.

What you said. When the Jews mocked Mohammed's stupid scriptual mistakes, the Holy Prophet became scared of the competition. First, he murdered any Jew who dared criticism him. One by one. Always in the night, as they slept. And a religion was thus born.

Next he extorted the homes and bank accounts from a couple tribes of them, becoming rich overnight. Then he chopped the heads off of all men of a tribe of them, licking his lips and luridly rolling his eyes in the heat-blasted bloodlust of that awful pleasure, 800 times over.

It's what Condi said: Islam is a religion with a heart of gold. Or maybe what George said Islam is the religion of peace. Tony too, he's awesome. With leaders like this, we're at 632 mph bearing near nose-down into the face of planet. The BBC and PBS are doing introspective documentaries on this, so everything'll be fine I'm sure.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 24, 2006 12:28 AM

This seems like merely an attempt by the current government to calm the islamists more than anything else. The governemnt may have defeated most of the FIS and GIA members, but the islamists still appear to have, tragically, a substantial influence in algeria as well as morocco, (clearly seen in how much Mohammed VI has struggled to modernize is country and provide even basic reforms such as increased women's rights). This may even be simply due to the fact that many developing countires, muslim majority or not, often have an innate fear and hostility towards evangelicalizing.

I would imagine all is not lost on a country like Algeria though. From what I've heard they have been moving away from islamism at a rapid pace since the civil war, clearly making the decision that they don't want to be ruled by bearded killers and rapists. Unfortunately, this new decision may implicate they still have a long way to go, but there are also signs that the berbers are gaining influence and subsquently the country is becoming less corrupt, more deomcratic and islamism is not nearly as dominant as it was a decade ago. I suppose the best that can be hoped is that, like in Iran, the younger generation will get fed up with islamist influence and demand more freedom from the government, and as the older leaders die and they gain power things will change more rapidly. Even then we probably see islam as the dominant religion for a long time, but least ehn its power would be kwpt in check.

Posted by: Maxwell46and2 at March 24, 2006 12:19 PM

Cowards, they cannot handle open debate about their religion. They have to use force and coercion to shut people up for trying to explain a different view of God. If a Christian is well informed they can run circles around the best Muslim apologist, that frightens them.
The Devil hates competition.

Posted by: disciple at March 24, 2006 11:08 PM

Does anybody remember that before Algerian independence in 1962, there were voices, especially in France, that warned that an independent Algeria would become a bigoted Muslim state? Those voices were belittled at the time, both by "revolutionary" Leftists and by the Washington establishment that was also backing Algerian independence. Both promised that after independence, despite some disquieting signs of Islamic intolerance and fanaticism on the part of the FLN, everything would be fine. The new Algeria that would arise would either be enlightened and tolerant and democratic --for the Washington crowd-- or enlightened and socialist and modern and up to date for the Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Trotskyist crowd. The reality over the past 44 years has been worse than the worse forecasts of the French skeptics [that I am aware of].

Posted by: Eliyahu at March 26, 2006 5:27 AM

I forgot to add the Leftist forecast that the New Algeria would be progessive, c'est-a-dire, progressiste, eprise de la democratie et du progres, comme Goebbels s'est reclame a l'egard de l'Allemagne a la reunion de la SDN en automne de 1933 [selon Genevieve Tabouis].

Posted by: Eliyahu at March 26, 2006 5:32 AM