Sounds fishy to me.

How many Muslims are there in Finland anyway?

Posted by: Interested at April 23, 2006 7:33 AM

Ah, there you are. "A nationalistic movement." Clearly it is not what is said, but who says it. As they are "nationalists", anything they do is naturally "against freedom of religion."

I have argued repeatedly against supporting creeps such as the Northern League or the BNP merely because they are against Islam; but this shows how a sufficiently corrupted idea of freedom can be used to suppress freedom. Freedom means freedom even for people you dislike. Even for creeps.

Posted by: Paolo at April 23, 2006 7:36 AM

Dhimmi logic 101:

By publishing the toons, these guys have indeed violated the freedom of others to worship. The toons enrage the Muslims and provoke them into perpetrating violence on non-Muslims. This violence, which is caused by the toons, inhibits the ability of non-Muslims to worship. So the publishers of the toons are violating the freedom of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Bahais, ..., to worship. They must be punished.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at April 23, 2006 9:41 AM

The organization's Declaration of Principles.

Finland is dangerously dhimmi. The government was immediately apologizing after the cartoon rage started, even though Finland had nothing to do with the events. The prime minister said that the Danish government should apologize, which wouldn't endanger free speech (somehow).

I don't understand how this affects anyone's freedom to worship. Were Muslims deprived of this freedom? Were they unable to practise their religion because some website published the cartoons? Why wasn't this freedom endangered when cartoons depicting Christianity were shown on live television a month or two ago? They televised a discussion panel about the cartoon riots and related subjects, and showed some pictures poking fun at Christianity, one of which implied some kind of connection between Christianity and Nazism. There were, of course, Christians present, and the moderator asked how they felt about the cartoons. I didn't watch the entire two hour discussion, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't show the Mohammed cartoons at any point.

For some reason, officials, politicians and intellectuals are unable to see any inconsistencies with the idea that making fun of Islam deprives Muslims of their freedom to worship, while making fun of Christians does nothing of the sort.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at April 23, 2006 11:00 AM

How unbearable to have your own country, and your own countrymen turn on you in such a manner. And for what? To kiss the bums of a bunch of subversive liars and intruders who have no right to dictate to you what you should write or say. Is there anything more demeaning or sickening?

Posted by: feralee at April 23, 2006 11:30 AM

Is Finland a nation-state? Does it possess a distinct language, culture, history, laws ? Is Finnish nationalism, if by "nationalism" one means the desire to preserve that history, that culture, that language, and not to let it be destroyed by those who have no interest in the preservation of any non-Muslim entity, much less an Infidel nation-state, illegitimate? And if it is, presumably those who feel the same way in other European countries, or other Infidel countries outside of the Europe, are also illegitimate

Patriotism (perhaps a better name for the best kind of "nationalism" for that word has been so tarred by so many unpleasant, and undeserved brushes with fate)is itself suspect in Europe. One must be a "European" and not Italian or French. This is a great error. The highest artistic achievements will be achieved by preserving the local lanaguages and literatures, and the creation of a Eurabian sentiment, which is all based on the ignoble goal of the Big Market (for the E.U. is entirely now based on the view of man as homo economicus -- the very charge that is made against the United States, and against all those too-eager globalisers).

But who is riding high in Europe, where just as everything from chocolate to parmigiano is being regulated and local differences destroyed, so too are other kinds of local differences, adn the lingua franca -- probably English -- is reduced to the level of mere "communication" suitable for the conduct of business.

Those who run the E.U. -- chris-pattens and javier-solanas -- are imbued with an islamisant attitude, one of hopelessnesss, or helplessness, that those who possess such attitudes transform into something positive by convincing themselves there is nothing to worry about, it is all for the best. The E.U. will not stand up for local languages, literatures, histories -- the E.U. is all about effacing such distinctions, creating that unappetizing thing, New European Man.

And the U.N., once the world's hope now turned into something hideous, a sty of corruption and antisemitism and anti-Americanism, is also against the European nation-state, for the Islamintern International that controls so much of the U.N.'s agenda (see how much time has been devoted to Muslim issues, including the diplomatic isolation of Israel, in meetings of various U.N. committees over nearly the past 40 years)-- is the U.N. not devoted to diminishing the power, the self-consciousness, even, of nation-states, above all in formerly self-assured, rich, advanced, Western Europe?

Is the growing recognition, exhibited by some citizens within the nation-states of Europe, that Islam may not wish them or their Infidel nation-states well, and that Muslims are intent, not as a matter of whim but as a matter of doctrine. to impose on non-Muslims their own, quite limited notions of "free speech" (or rather, their own denial of free speech), as exhibited recently in the whole business of those cartoons, published by Danes in Denmark in a Danish newspaper for Danish readers -- is that recognition illegitiimate? Is patriotism illegitimate?

The very word "nationalism" has been so sullied by its identification, often completely without any basis, with assored moseley-and-mussolini blackshirt brigages, or skinheads and neo-Nazis. It may be impossible to rescue that word, but at least one should note that the word "nationalism" without more should not have been so tained.

Perhaps the word "nationalism" is too tainted for use. In that case, if the word "patriotism" implies purely political loyalty, perhaps some other word should be used to describe the justified and intelligent desire to preseve the diversity that nation-states in Eruope stand for, a diversity of languages, literatures, histories, that make them them, and make lives more interesting all way round. Surely cultural and linguistic preservation and poltical loyalties to a long-historied nation-state is a better guarantee of the capacity to withstand Islam and the temptation of appeasement than either the islamisant E.U., that leveller at every level, or the sinister U.N., could conceivably provide. They have both been tested, and found wanting.

England, France, Italy are more likely to defend thsemselves, and to offer space to political leaders who will defend the country against all of the instruments of Jihad, than sometning called the European Union, whose most powerful bureaucrats are intent on effacing national distinctions as they attempt to efface differences in the foods, and who have so far been political handmaidens of the forces of Islam. An undoing of the European Union may be necessary to preserving Europe -- in its constituent parts. Or perhaps, if it not too late, the E.U.'s personnel, and policies, will be changed.

Posted by: Hugh at April 23, 2006 12:01 PM

What would the brave Finns who so valiantly fought the invasion of the Soviet Union against overwhelming odds in 1939 have thought about such craven cowardice?

Posted by: Celsius at April 23, 2006 12:20 PM

I'm shocked to see that the Finnish government is so dhimmified. As someone with Finnish heritage myself, I can tell you they are headstrong, stubborn fighters. The Finns must be overheating in their saunas now. I've never been ashamed to be Finn, except today.

Posted by: thethinker at April 23, 2006 1:04 PM

I never said that these people (whose name, if I am correct, means something like "Finnish endurance", the quality that baffled the Russians) are anything like as bad as the Northern League, let alone the BNP. I said that this is the Finnish police's excuse to come down on them. As if the Rights of Man were suspended if you dislike someone. If I met a Northern League member, I would refuse to debate with him; but I would fight - and I mean fight, with fists, guns, whatever comes at hand - anyone who tried to force his opinions or punish him for them for any reason except direct endorsement of crime. Even though I view such people as poisonous, freedom under the law belongs to them as much as to us. However you may detest the views of someone, you have no right to do anything against them unless they do something properly criminal. I was taught in school that we got rid of crimes of opinion in 1945, and shot full of holes the guy who had introduced the concept to Italy, for good measure. It seems that the notion was not drummed into some Finnish brains well enough.

Posted by: Paolo at April 23, 2006 2:08 PM

What would the brave Finns who so valiantly fought the invasion of the Soviet Union against overwhelming odds in 1939 have thought about such craven cowardice?

You should ask them, since many of them are still alive.

But, we should remember that it's only cowardice if you know what's going on. If you think that Islam is a religion of peace and that Muslims are being unfairly persecuted by fascists, then you're not being a coward for being a dhimmi, you just think you're promoting diversity and tolerance.

When enemy tanks are rolling over the borders, it's easy to see what's going on, but Islamization is far more subtle.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at April 23, 2006 2:49 PM

http://www.suomensisu.org/content/view/75/87/lang,en/

Suomen Sisu

Looks a little extreme - I think in Europe the governments are using any excuse to crack down on these groups - I think that we can handle the situation better than around the 2nd world war - killing people who are different – or because we want to create more jobs.

There is a racial superiority element about this group. Truth is anyone can become Muslim – it is a belief system, the challenge is not racial purity! It is to stop the spread of the deadly and supremacist parts of this religious ideology.

Posted by: Pass It On at April 23, 2006 6:16 PM

Pass It On - so they are racists? So what? Freedom of speech exists especially for people we do not like. A fine state of affairs it would be if everyone else had to wake up in the morning and start wondering what they will say during the day so as not to offend Our highly privileged little shell-like ears.

Posted by: Paolo at April 23, 2006 6:56 PM

The group doesn't strike me as racist, they're simply opposed to the idea of mixing all cultures together into a jumbled mess, (as is happening in certain parts of Europe) replacing one culture with another or assimilating everyone into a big happy European family at the cost of national cultures.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at April 23, 2006 7:02 PM

Last post was unclear.

The group doesn't strike me as racist, they're simply opposed to the idea of mixing all cultures together into a jumbled mess, replacing one culture with another (as is happening in certain parts of Europe), or assimilating everyone into a big happy European family at the cost of national cultures.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at April 23, 2006 7:04 PM

How can the Muslims demand from others to respect Islam and their beliefs and their religious icons while the Qur’an commands the humiliation and the killing of non-Muslims for simply not embracing Islam as their religion, Sura 9:29?

The publishing of cartoon drawings has been regarded and taken as an affront to Islam, how would they describe the Qur’anic injunctions that incite Muslims towards hate and murdering the other, i.e. the non-Muslims?

Can his royal Majesty, the king of Saudi Arabia, state to Westerners generally and to the Danes particularly of whom it is required to respect Islam that all Muslims are required and commanded by Allah in the Qur’an to hate all the Jews and the Christians of the World?

"O ye who believe do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends … 5:51

Posted by: Daughter of Zion at April 24, 2006 7:59 AM

As Islam continues to reveal its true nature, it is hard not to view it as one humongous Charles Manson family!

Posted by: cactus at April 24, 2006 11:19 AM

Groups like 'Suomen sisu' are hardly even known to exist in Finland, they're all about provoking and feeling unity with other morons.

Posted by: m.juana at April 27, 2006 5:27 PM