Hirsi Ali is the Joan of Arc of our times - Muslim or not. Anne Frank must be turning over in her grave.

Benedict XVI Good Friday 2006: "...everything seems over, The wicked seem to triumph, and evil appears more powerful than good. But faith enables us to see afar,It makes us glimpse the break of a new day on the other side of this day."

How far to the other side? How many must die before the Euros get it?

Posted by: Jimmy Bones at April 29, 2006 4:21 PM

Once again, the appeal to "human rights" is being employed to perpetrate and disguise an egregious human wrong.

Posted by: scaramouoche at April 29, 2006 5:04 PM

Now there is a European precedent to expel someone from their own home, even if they've been convicted of nothing, just to make their neighbors feel safer.

So every Frenchman, Belgian, German, Dane, or Norwegian, ought to sue to expel Muslims from their apartments because all the young Islamic thugs, make the non-Muslims feel even more unsafe.

Let's see how that would fly in the European courts!

Posted by: Provoslavni at April 29, 2006 5:36 PM

This is just appalling! Hey, let's just dump someone out of their own home because they are a target for the muslims. On the other hand one can almost sympathize with her neighbors for no one wants to see a RPG fired down the hallway. The neighbors probably see themselves as "collateral damage". Provoslavni has the right idea. Sue to expel muslims from their apartments because of all the thuggery. Make this law can work both ways. Force the issue, draw attention to this.

Posted by: Caratacus at April 29, 2006 5:50 PM

Provoslavni has the right idea-because of safety concerns all Muslims have to leave appartment blocks. Was blaming the Dutch for this but see their court's ruling was overturned by European Law.
There is much gloating on Islamic Blogs over this ruling and I fear for this splendid and courageous woman's life. Hirsi Ali herself must feel bitterly betrayed by the Euro Dhimmis ready to throw her to Islamic Wolves.

Posted by: Morgane at April 29, 2006 6:06 PM

I have news for the people who don't feel safe with that brave woman living near them, they have millions of ticking time-bombs in their midst, we all do, that makes me feel unsafe. I would rather live next door to Hirsi Ali than a "we condemn terrorism... But."

Posted by: IceDragon at April 29, 2006 6:15 PM

Provoslavni has the right idea-because of safety concerns all Muslims have to leave appartment blocks. Was blaming the Dutch for this but see their court's ruling was overturned by European Law. There is much gloating on Islamic Blogs over this ruling and I fear for this splendid and courageous woman's life. Hirsi Ali herself must feel bitterly betrayed by the Euro Dhimmis ready to throw her to Islamic Wolves. Posted by: Morgane

I don't live in Holland but if I did I would turn the gloat of those Muslim blogs to bloat, by filing a similar suit, this time against Muslims, because I don't feel safe with a potential Jihadi, a potential terrorist living in the same complex, or as a neighbor.

In fact the "I don't feel safe" argument can be used for anyone and everyone.

Turn about is fair play.

Posted by: Nariz at April 29, 2006 6:28 PM

"When they came for Ayaan Hirsi Ali,
I remained silent;
I was not an Apostate from Islam.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.!

After Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892-1984)
dedicated to Ayaan's neighbours.

Posted by: Polish infideless at April 29, 2006 6:28 PM

Well, I know Brisbane's a bit out of the way for a Dutch MP but I've got a spare bed, it's cool if she wants to crash here . . .

Posted by: Razorskarr at April 29, 2006 6:38 PM

Yes, she can live with me as well. I have a spare bedroom.

Posted by: Voltaire at April 29, 2006 6:42 PM

Dutch: A noun meaning bed-wetting coward.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 29, 2006 6:58 PM

This is a very good article, not just for this thread but for the war in which an attempt is being made to dhiummify each and every one of us.

ALL FOR ONE - by Amit Ghate,

http://www.6thcolumnagainstjihad.com/Noteworthy_P2.htm

Posted by: DP111 at April 29, 2006 7:06 PM

According to a notice I saw over at Booker Rising, Ayaan Hirsi Ali will be at the New York Public Library tomorrow, April 30, at 1:45.

http://misskelly.typepad.com/miss_kelly_/2006/04/ayaan_hirsi_ali.html

If you're in NYC, please go and support her.

Posted by: kelley at April 29, 2006 7:17 PM

have_mercy

I can sympathise with the neighbours for it is not their fault. It is our collective governments that have left us at the mercy of the wolves, after having disarmed us. Now at the mercy of muslim immigrants in the West, the compact between the citizen and the state is breaking down, and each is looking to his or her own safety, as the nation state has miserably failed to fulfill the state's side of the compact.

Do read the article I posted above. I have felt this all along, that the Rushdie affair and the pusillanimous response of Western governments to it, gave the green light to muslims to terrify Western citizens into submission. From then on, each and every act of terrifying the Western citizen, from murders, bombs and cartoon Jihad, has been met by the governments by increasing calls of Islam as the RoP, and leaving the citizen to fend for himself.

What is happening now in Holland and elsewhere in the West, is a direct consequence of the dereliction of the primary duty of a government.

Posted by: DP111 at April 29, 2006 7:28 PM

It has nothing to do with the government. It is the filthy gutless cowards who are her neighbours - hey, wanna bet that they are well off? - who are slaves in their own minds and souls. They crawl. If the Mafia came and asked, they would not only pay protection, they would give them their daughters to go to bed with. They have no values, no courage, no virtue of any kind; for as C.S.Lewis once pointed out, courage is not a virtue, it is the shape every virtue takes when it comes to the point. I have no words hard enough to condemn this. I thought I could not despise the Netherlands worse than I do, but this is beneath anything I could possibly have imagined. The Dutch deserve tyranny and mass murder, and if it ever comes to a crisis, I for one will refuse that one penny of my tax money goes to do anything but dig them graves.

Posted by: Paolo at April 29, 2006 7:56 PM

Oh, and my flat is certainly nothing like Ms.Ali deserves, and probably not as good as she is used to, but she and any other enemy of tyranny and murder are welcome to share it.

Posted by: Paolo at April 29, 2006 7:58 PM

Paolo

What do you think writers or caricaturists do now. Do they simply shut up about islam or continue with their work regardless of the danger they will put themselves in. What this sitauation has shown is that people such as Hirsi Ali, the cartoonists and writers on islam, have no protection in law.

As the cartoon affair has shown, governments whose duty it was to protect writers etal, went the other way and bowed to the demands of muslims ie complicit in the shutting down of freedom of expression. This has left ordinary citizens no recourse whatever in law.

If there was any backbone in our governments, they would have warned muslims in Europe that any act of violence against writers or cartoonists, would not just be an attack on the individual but on the very foundation of the state, and that would have consequences far beyong mere trial and imprisonment. After all, this is what the war is about - to terrify the Infidel to till he submits and that islam dominates.

If governments and its arm, the law, will not protect citizens, then that sets us on the road to anarchy.

Posted by: DP111 at April 29, 2006 8:28 PM

DP111: you start, like these filth, from the presumption that the government has to act first. What a lovely surrender of individual responsibility, of the duties of a citizen, of common humanity. So if governing filth surrender to the mafia, we should do that as well. Sorry, I would rather imagine that I am at least to some extent a human being. SPARTACUS is a stupid and overrated movie, but I suggest you have a little look at the reaction of the slaves when the Roman says: "Give us Spartacus, and the rest of you can go free."

Posted by: Paolo at April 29, 2006 8:31 PM

Three hundred years, Dryden wrote the exact description of these blond, beefy cowards: "Vast bulks which little souls but ill supply."

Posted by: Paolo at April 29, 2006 8:33 PM

Anyone who would justify these filth would justify any evil whatsoever. It does not seem to occur to them that those who do not resist evil, or help those who do, are not neutral, they are accomplices. These vile creatures, human only in the zoological sense of the term, have sold their own individual moralities down the river, and not even for a mess of pottage: they have sold them for the privilege of being intimidated, terrified, cowering. That is what they ask the court to respect: their state of intimidation. And, DP111, it is simply not true that the State was not doing anything to protect them. That was just the issue. It was just the fact that they were being protected, that terrified them. They sabotaged the action of the State itself. To say that they are beneath contempt is too weak an expression for such flesh without a soul.

Posted by: Paolo at April 29, 2006 8:37 PM

By permitting Islam to take root in the Netherlands as they have, the Dutch people tthemselves opened to the manifold lethalities of Islam. Turning a blind eye to it as they seem to be doing now won't help them at all.

Posted by: pythagoras at April 29, 2006 8:40 PM

Paolo

Its all very well your fighting talk. The fact is that criticism of islam will not only put your life in danger but the the police will tell you in no uncertain terms, that they are unable to protect you, and that it is your fault anyway to have put yourself in that position. This is the actual state of affairs in Britain.

So what do you do? Do you walk about in fear, and assault any muslim who looks sideways at you. Or do you simply go about till one day you end up in the morgue from a sneak attack by a couple of Jihadis. Or do you form a gang of like minded people, as Spartacus did and wage war on those who wage war on you. That would mean the end of the rule of law.

So what exactly do you mean by "you start from the presumption that the government has to act first"

Oh and BTW Paolo, I'm addressing you with civility, so your "DP111: you start, like these filth" is not appropriate. Maybe you didnt mean it in the way it sounds.

Its 2 am - will call it a day.

Posted by: DP111 at April 29, 2006 8:54 PM

Paolo-

Always liked, and also thought, given the constraints, "Spartacus" was a decent film, and even profound, at times.

I am Hirsi Ali. Too.

Of course.

I'd like to move in next-door to the wimpy Hollanders and take Ms. Al's vacated spot, then name my new apartment-based business:

"Hirsi Ali Poppen"

(Hirsi Ali Children's Dolls),

-just to yank their little leashes give them a taste of the future's choices:

Either stand, or crawl.

Either kick out the scum who are threatening her, or prepare to be engilfed by their demands, their terror and their triumph.

More guards to intimidate the jihadists, not more intimidation
to be demonstrated by the victim.

(Or, better, move the neighbor out and replace them with Special Service agents, who dress like wimpy neighbors.).

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 29, 2006 8:59 PM

Paolo

The government is an agent of the state. The state's most important functionary arm is the law. It is the law that failed Hirsi Ali, whatever may have been the complaint of her neighnours.

If the neighbours felt that Hirsi Ali's presence was a threat, then it was because they know the state is powerless to protect them in an attack on Hirsi Ali. In effect they are saying that they have no confidence in the state's promise to protect its citizens or citizen, from a clear and stated threat.

Now I realise that the state cannot protect everyone, but it can by deterrence, if it makes clear that an assault on Hirsi Ali, would just not be an attack on her but on the foundations of the state itself, and that would merit a totally different response.

The state continues to treat the Jihad as a law and order problem, when in fact it is a war.

Posted by: DP111 at April 29, 2006 9:09 PM

DP111: I have spent much of my adult life in a country under constant threat by terrorists and mafia. That is why I find the response of the bodies-without-a-soul not only subhuman but incomprehensible. They are begging for the privilege to be terrified. That is so far beneath anything I have ever considered human, let alone decent, that the very notion that anyone might feel sympathetic to them is beyond me. It is like being sympathetic to a pile of rotten, steaming ordure covered with flies. Nor do I understand your allusions to governments. If you are not disposed to stand up by yourself, and do not think anyone should do anything without governmental assistance, I can hardly see what you are doing here, since none of us represent any government and most of us are both dissatisfied with ours and quite disposed to act without their support. So life is dangerous. Did nobody ever tell you that before?

Posted by: Paolo at April 29, 2006 9:10 PM

Oh, and another thing: since the cartoon nonsense seems to validate cowardice in your eyes, I might as well tell you that I have an online journal in my real name, where I recently published and commented all twelve original Danish cartoons. Vi er all Dansker nu.

Posted by: Paolo at April 29, 2006 9:14 PM

So the dhimmis want to have nothing to do with saving themselves? Is that the gist of it? They cluster with their closed circle of friends and ignore the jihad happening throughout their country. There is something seriously wrong in Europe, and submission without struggle seems to be the chosen path. Appalling, shocking, disturbing. This is very wrong. As for all these EU "human rights" charters, the anarchists must be pleased.

Posted by: John Sobieski at April 29, 2006 9:37 PM

DP111 said, "I can sympathise with the neighbours for it is not their fault. It is our collective governments that have left us at the mercy of the wolves, after having disarmed us."

I can guess by the spelling of "neighbours' that DP111 is living in Britian or some other colony. We are fortunate here in the USAthat the rising tide of gun control (ie, confiscation) has been beaten back, at least temporarily. Hopefully the Democratic party will not gain control of Congress. I do not think GHWB has the courage to veto a new gun control bill. Thankfully the misnamed assault weapons law was allowed to die.

Back on the subject - You bet, western governments have disarmed their people. Britian makes it a crime to defend one's self with a firearm. In approximately 32 states in the US one can legally carry a concealed weapon, with a permit of course. I'm looking to buy another evil autoloading pistol.

With all the posturing over the homeland Security Act and its so-called attack on civil rights plus the screaming about the NSA listening in on international telephone calls - please notice that not one new gun control law has been passed since 9-11.

Our enemies are not afraid to die, and we must not be afraid to kill them.

Posted by: Pelayo at April 29, 2006 9:48 PM

This is why the Dutch lasted sooooooo long in WWII! It appears she picked the wrong country to live in. She should not waste one more minute trying to save the idiots from their own doom. She is too important to the west to lose so maybe a relocation to some place that needs to be saved like London, Paris, Rome or perhaps may I suggest Washington D.C.

And we Americans need strong leades (god knows none are being elected).

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at April 29, 2006 9:55 PM

Seems to me there was no reason for the courts to become involved in the first place. Hirsi Ali is not the threat these cowards fear.

IF I were her, I would stand my ground since she broke no law. No breach of contract was committed by Hirsi.

I would firmly invite the neighbors to take the option of moving upon themselves.

I'm certain there are loyal Dutch who would be happy to move in as her neighbors.

Posted by: justamomof4 at April 29, 2006 10:06 PM

Leades = Leaders

Man, I have been watching Bush too much. Its like a bad infection.

Pelayo-Right on target. If she comes to the USA she can get some real weapons!

That would really complete the package: Smart, Brave, and Packing....Oh yes!

It will really be funny when one of the jihadist trys to get her with his beheading knife and gets capped....what can I say...never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at April 29, 2006 10:11 PM

It's difficult to decide who are the more reprehensible here: the Dutch or the Muslims systematically destroying their pride, their hearts, and their souls.

Posted by: Marwan'sDaughter at April 29, 2006 10:18 PM

Pelayo you bring up a good point about gun control. When I was young growing up in Canada I couldnt understand the need to own a gun. When a fellow student in school who was pro gun told me because simply without gun ownership the government had complete ownership over our lives. guns ensured freedom. I thought he was nuts. Now I realize how true it is that we need to be armed. Relying on government to protect us is wrong. I am now pro gun myself.

It seems the dutch are taking the same strategy as people in open water take to avoid be eaten by sharks. Huddle together and hope the shark eats the person next to you and leaves you alone. And hopefully while each person gets eaten one at a time there are enought people to be eaten that the odds are you will still be alive when help comes. My question to the dutch is who the hell are you waiting for to rescue you. Its your country.

Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at April 29, 2006 10:39 PM

Hope when sharia comes to town the "Neihgbours" rejoice. Especially the ladies and daughters. oh to see the look on their faces when they see their new masters looking down on them all sweaty and grunting and all. Hope they think of Hirsi Ali and how they all came to her aid. They have given up all that their Fathers and Grandfathers fought for.
W@nkers

Posted by: witwoo at April 29, 2006 11:05 PM

In fact, Anne Frank was turned in by a neighbour, if I am not mistaken...

Posted by: highbg at April 30, 2006 12:27 AM

When she was to appear in Toronto Canada the venue had to be changed three times because of threats by Islamists to bomb the building for letting her show Submission in Canada.

The real tragedy though is that even after CAIR dropped their Law-suits against people proving CAIR's link to terrorism and Hamas funding, a NDP MP ( Bill Siksay) has aligned himself with CAIR-Can's latest attempt to free suspected terrorists being held in Canada for having bogus documents and forged Papers while attending known radical Mosques with terror links.

Hamas was recently declared a terrorist org. and cut of funding by the Canadian taxpayers, but Mohummad Elmasry has posted a notice on his CIC website asking for money to send to Palestine
for "Government Workers" to feed their kids and pay the rent.

Yeah,right Mohammad, we still remember you saying that "All Israelis over 18 are valid targets for murder by suicide bombers".

Posted by: ala-sux at April 30, 2006 12:29 AM

This is a perfect example of anarcho-tyranny. The government has become so bloated yet it is completely powerless to enforce the law. In fact, it refuses to enforce the law and it is paralyzed by its political correctness to actually do something about the "root cause". Hirsi Ali is not the real threat here (and she has broken now law unless freedom of speech is now illegal in the Netherlands), it is the Muslims (not Islamists). Instead of adopting racial profiling and a non-suicidal immigration policy, they will let the Muslims wreak havoc and scurry the infidels off to safe places and hope and pray that the Muslims won't get them (especially ones with sharp tongues like Hirsi Ali). What are the Dutch waiting for? A nuke? Do something already!

Posted by: igor at April 30, 2006 1:03 AM

Dear Hirsi Ali, Come to America. You are welcome here, and there are plenty of big open spaces with brave people, where you can find a place.

Posted by: Oregon James at April 30, 2006 1:13 AM

In the movie "Downfall"(and I have to admit to historical ignorance here as I do NOT know whether this is true to history but I suspect that it is) Goebbels as gaulieter of Berlin is informed that his Volkssturm forces(made up of untrained and often unarmed old men and children) are simply being massacred by the red army. His comment was: " I feel no sympathy. The German people chose their fate....They gave us the mandate and now their little throats are being cut".

The point of this is that you cannot depend upon any goverment, even an elected goverment of the type now rampant in almost all western countries to really have the future of its people at its heart.

The time of the "strong man",the statesman or the leader with vision or some idea of the future and the welfare of mankind and who is prepared to place these first, is over. We now have "committee" governments where the leader is not the most suitable one with the vision and strength but the one with the most votes and whose sole aim is for keeping these votes and compromise is the order of the day.

Thus we have eunuchoid governments heavily dependent upon the subsidies of various and very mercenary lobby groups with a very narrow view of the world:their own interests. Most goverments worry more about trade than selfdefence as many of their strings are pulled by multinational comapanies who really do not care about individual countries so long as the trade continues. This is what drives them into dhimmitude. The oil is very relevant but it is just another part of the whole trade blackmail scenario by which companies without electoral control run many, if not all, western countries. Compared to a theocratic or fascist dictatorship they are sadly lacking in courage,unselfishness, direction and willpower

It will take some dreadful calamity for some "strong men" to be allowed power unless the uncorrupted populations in western countries force their governments to do so. However, idealists aside, most western countries have very few people who are starving, freezing, frightened or uncomfortable enough to go to this much trouble and while PC rules there is no hope.

The Dutch neighbours are typical of the smallminded selfishness which rules in the west and they are not alone here as much the same can be said for any western country.The same applies to the Dutch "government".

Democracy is very ill, weak and spineless.
I just hope that it is not terminal. We will find out when a crisis occurs whether twe have headless chickens or true leaders. So far the chickens have the numbers.

Posted by: Zathras at April 30, 2006 1:16 AM

So let me see: This is the same country that still prides itself on the Anne Frank story?

Well, we now know what would have happened to Anne Frank in today`s Holland. Endangering the neighbours... nope, can`t have that.

So I hope the government also addresses this issue and stops any celebration of Anne Frank. Coming to think of it, is not already dangerous to live next to a Jew in today`s Holland?

I am so disgusted.

Posted by: Derukugi at April 30, 2006 1:18 AM

For the residence of this housing complex - it must be like having Salman Rushdie living upstairs. The residents of the building are acting in their own self interest.

Though all this should direct the attention towards the teachings of Islam. If we allow the freedom of religion – but one religion is diametrically opposed to everything else, and holds a religious belief, that it has the right to act violently against all else, how can the citizens of other beliefs or persuasions, be adequately protected in the midst of this?

This week alone, the defenders of Islam have threatened, at least two heads of State and Bill Gates – {Bill Gates’ only crime being not having joined Islam}

That, a sheep, camel or goat herder [or their children] from the Islamic world, should decide – by violent means – who governs and operates in a Western nation – is just plain crazy!

Posted by: Pass It On at April 30, 2006 1:43 AM

Bill Gates? For what - is there anything on Encarta unflattering to Islam? Or is it simply that Microsoft Encarta maps don't show Israel as Palestine?

Or is there something that's gone unnoticed?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at April 30, 2006 2:28 AM

Just got back from united 93. Great movie. In the movie one of the passengers was either german or swedish. He was arguing with the other passengers who wanted to fight back not too. "he honestly thought if everyone just gave in the terrorists would let them go. Sadly we know he was wrong. I know the movie will be a success in North america. I hope the Europeans see it. Or maybe they are too busy seeing Syriana. What a piece of crap Syriana was. I paid $2 at the cheap theatre to see it. I almost asked for my money back.

Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at April 30, 2006 3:53 AM

One thing Islamic terror does is make moral choices almost impossible. Suppose you are a family with small children living in the same house as Hirsi Ali. Islamic terror forces you to to choose between protecting your children from bombs/arson etc., or protecting Hirsi Ali. The immoral (booting Hirsi) becomes simultaneously moral (I will protect my children), and the moral (I must protect my children) becomes at the same time tragically immoral (I must boot Hirsi Ali). A similar damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't schizophrenic morality was forced on people in Stalin's Soviet Union. Do I turn in the innocent truth-telling dissident I keep coming across who is merely passing samizdat? If I do, he will be executed. But if I don't, I risk my own death and could deprive my wife of her husband and my children of their father, perhaps I even risk my wife and children's lives. Is it moral to risk my children's lives? Evil social doctrines create insoluble moral dilemmas. - Omar

Posted by: www.islamquest.blogspot.com at April 30, 2006 4:06 AM

Paolo:
Do you have children who live with you? If you do, that might make the morality of your choices a bit more difficult to work out. See my post just above. - Omar

Posted by: www.islamquest.blogspot.com at April 30, 2006 4:19 AM

Dear Hirsi, come to Utah. I have a spare bedroom and a twelve gauge.

Posted by: dms at April 30, 2006 4:28 AM

The Dutch verdict mens that the state should have consulted with the other parties as well before placing her in a condominium. Sooner or later the other tantnts would have been threatened openly - that is the way the Imams work.

I do the verdict this is correct: The state is reponsible for Hirsi Ali and the others as well. Now they must find a better solution.

Posted by: FreeSpeech at April 30, 2006 6:18 AM

l can understand the powerless feeling of Hiris's neighbours, especially families with chidlren. but what these peope dont realize is that the futur will be only worse because they did not unite with Hirsi now before its too late. European life is so regulated, and by allowing so much socialism, they have given too much power to the government, now citizens react like children, unable to think for themselves and save themselves. its a pity.
l always wondered how so many Jews and others were rounded up so easily. l think Europeans are brought up to trust the government. Cdns are in the middle of thinking, between the US and Europe, and l am thankful for that ocean!

Posted by: Lulu at April 30, 2006 6:23 AM

Hirsi Ali's neighbours, you are targets anyway, if you are Dutch as opposed to Muslim. Bending over to become a Dhimmi "ho" won't save you from their ultimate plans. Their plans don't include Dhimmis, Dhimmis, you will be up the chimney with the rest of us.

Posted by: IceDragon at April 30, 2006 6:43 AM

The Dutch were never a brave people;
- In WW1 we stood aside as many men died in the tranchids in Belgium
- In WW2 we were overrun in 3 days by the German armies - we didn't even have the foresight to make sure all our governement files were destroyed, which lead to the deaths of more than 100.000 dutch Jews
- We don't back up those that speak out a meaning that is not in line with the political correct expectations... but condoned teachers having Russian and East-German flags in the classrooms during the cold war.
- I was born in Holland, but had to leave it behind as I did not want my family to suffer for my opinions.

And now this... one can only wait for the first muslim prime minister to govern what once was my country.

Posted by: Fairlane at April 30, 2006 6:48 AM

We are all doomed because of the demographics in Europe. Nothing else matters. Guns are useless in the polling booth.

Posted by: Celsius at April 30, 2006 8:01 AM

So Hirsi Ali is removed from the building and the other tenants believe that they are safe?! All they are accomplishing with this is feeding the false hope that the tiger will eat them last. In the end, such attitude will only cause them to silently march to the gas chambers. It is a behaviour pattern that is well familiar to the generation who lived through the war of 1939-45.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at April 30, 2006 9:12 AM

If you have a strong stomach:

http://stage.co.il/media/largefiles/doribenisraelkario299562.wmv

Posted by: emet-veritas at April 30, 2006 9:14 AM

Ms. Ali, move to Florida. There's no snow, lots of nice people. You may have to go back to translating, but at least you will be safe.

(PS... Utah sucks; it's colder than Holland and there's two million people with twelve last names. Come to Florida.)

Posted by: kj at April 30, 2006 10:07 AM

Apparently this whole scenario is backwards. Instead of Hirsi having to live with guards, walled off and afraid, maybe the muslims need to be walled off.

Think about this for a minute. They don't work, probably most don't, they don't care to see the sights of the country as a family,(keep the women home and covered)museums, or anything cultural.

So they have the muslims live in one area, they like hellholes so they should love it, and if there is a man that works, he goes to the gate, the guards check his identity and he goes off to work. This would keep the gangs of raping young men safely in the muslim area and not in the public. And if a muslim doesn't work, he would have no business going outside the gates.

The man who works, can do the shopping before he comes home and goes back through the gate.

Very simple. They know where the muslims are and if anything happens to a citizen, they know which muslims left the compound that day.

Posted by: freewoman at April 30, 2006 11:04 AM

The twisted logic for keeping the peace makes no sense except to appease the Islamists .
I remember a issue about prayer in the classroom, first a group tried to ban it for everyone,then others wanted a moment of silence for each religion to pray,then the non-faith parents didn't want the kids forced to stand through the ordeal,then the gym was sellected for all kids to pray befor class if desired,then the parents of non-faith kids felt theirs was being centered out by not being in the gym.

The issue kept going and I never heard the final results of how the Public school board pleased everyone , and the Politicians are just as bad , rather than punish the criminals and make the streets safe, we're expected to put bars on our windows and stay inside as to not incite the criminal to commit a crime against a person.

Posted by: ala-sux at April 30, 2006 11:41 AM

Omar

You can't compare communism with the situation of the Dutch in this particular controversy. I know The Hague very well. It's not a city of have nots, powerless proletarians and secret-police- fearing dissidents. Protecting your family from danger by cowardly accepting harm being done to others in communist Russia, for example, has absolutely no relevance to what's happening in The Hague now.
Those really fearful could move out at any time. They all have the means. The Hague is a rich, self-indulgent city.
This is not about saving your children from harm, like it would have been for a Russian welder reporting a so-called "saboteur" under duress.
Stop writing about what you obviously don't know a thing about.

Posted by: ovidius_naso at April 30, 2006 1:52 PM

islamquest said:

"One thing Islamic terror does is make moral choices almost impossible. Suppose you are a family with small children living in the same house as Hirsi Ali. Islamic terror forces you to to choose between protecting your children from bombs/arson etc., or protecting Hirsi Ali. The immoral (booting Hirsi) becomes simultaneously moral (I will protect my children), and the moral (I must protect my children) becomes at the same time tragically immoral (I must boot Hirsi Ali). "

No. Islam does not justify moral relativism. Moral relativism is what tried to make heroes out of the neighbours who did the only decent and humane action of protecting Anne Frank. They simply did what they should have done.

It is wrong to evict Hirsi Ali whether or not one has children. In fact, I'll go further than that. I am a parent, and trying to placate murderers and thugs to protect my children would not be right. It would not protect my children in the long run, and at the same time I would have taught my children that doing the immoral to protect themselves would make wrong become right. Allowing a child to see such a terrible wrong done to Hirsi Ali would harm the child as much as it would that brave woman in question. Thanks, but I'll choose to have ethcial and moral children who understand the difference between right and wrong and who are not afraid ever to do what is good and right, and who understand that really there is no choice to be made in that situation.

Posted by: libbysmom at April 30, 2006 3:34 PM

I honestly fail to understand what the people who talk about being afraid for one's children are doing on this site. For your information, we are at war. Everyone's children are in danger, like everyone's parents, grandparents, second cousins once removed, and pet sloths. Please do not use families as a justification.

Posted by: Paolo at April 30, 2006 3:37 PM

Dutch: A noun meaning bed-wetting coward. A memorable quote, but it also applies (alas and alack) to many, too many Brits, Scots, Welsh, Irish and Americans.. My most serious arguments (and accusations, eg being called a bigot or Islamophobe) have been from dhimmitized residents of the British Isles.

In re: Flight 93, I don't think I will watch it. I saw a trailer and a scene (since redacted) in which the "Shaheeds" all put on RED headbands, not the Green of Islam, the Black of Muhammad or the appropriate Yellow of Hezbollah, but the red of Maoists. The producers at that point had faint hearts, and were afraid to associate "terrorism" with Islam. I'll bet that there is a CAIR, or AMS or Islamic Institute (founded by Grover Norquist) representative at every shoot or editing session of any movie or TV show remotely touching Islam. (Worked on 24, didn't it?)

Posted by: Nariz at April 30, 2006 4:05 PM

If parents living near Hirsi Ali want to protect their children so much then THEY should move away before they call for her eviction.

Shame on the Dutch. I wish to remind all that the complete short film SUBMISSION can be see from the links at the bottom of

http://www.ropma.net/

(in English -only first minute spoken in Dutch)

Posted by: Odysseus at April 30, 2006 4:08 PM

libbysmom
Paolo

Thanks for standing up for truth. I fled Eastern Europe many years ago in large part because those around me invoked their children to explain their surrender to coersion and fear.

Thanks again.

Posted by: ovidius_naso at April 30, 2006 5:29 PM

Absolutely disgraceful and shameful..

What an apartment block full of rats...

the person who mentioned Anne Frank is spot on the money..

Perhaps the Dutch have exchanged one fascist occupier for another, and are just too busy collaborating and 'getting along'....

Posted by: entebbe at April 30, 2006 6:31 PM

Fairlane, above, makes interesting hisrorical points...I dont know if the Dutch were 'never brave people', all I do know is some anecdotes and maybe some historical facts..I travelled with a Dutch girl in central australia, sh was a backpacker...a fantastic girl, if the Dutch women are all like her, of course we should all emigrate there..she admitted there was some 'soul-searching' in the Netherlands, about Anne Frank and the Holocaust in general, that some people admitted 'perhaps we could have been more 'heroic"

In Changi or other Japanese POW camps, in Pacific in WW2, there were many dutchmen POWs from the over-run
Dutch colonies in East Indies..the word among other POWs Australians,. British, americans, was that you watched out for them, be careful of them..for informing to Japanese to reward themselves..

But meanwhile there were Dutch airmen fleeing from the East Indies, who flew in units with the Australian Air Force, their reputation was that they were 'madmen', ie, fearless, daredevils..

I worked with a Dutch manager at a place, he talked about his father and mother in the Nazi occupation ...he said the people couldnt do enough for the nazis, was the truth..the Germans called them 'the lovely friendly Dutch'...He said German troops came to a village, the girls 'laid it all out for them'...he wasnt talking about a food smorgasbord..

But, anecdotes...who knows in this day and age, which nation is brave, which are like this, even if this is a fair representation of these peeple in this one place, who of us has the impression it would be totally different where we are..

The Person who talks about 'this is just about hoping the tiger eats you last' has it nailed..

Im not sure if these are craven or gutless people anymore than just fuckwits who havent thought it through!
After Bali bombing, and Israeli tourist told an Australian, 'you Australians are Israelis too now'..

Perhaps we are all Dutch too now?

Posted by: entebbe at April 30, 2006 6:54 PM

The real root problem is we have become soft and allowed feelings to get in the way of the truth, canada had a Military general that watched the horrors in Rhwanda and was caught between to groups using Children as soldiers and front line shields because the thugs in charge knew the Peace-keepers didn't have the will to do what was right .

Those children with AK-47's were already dead since nobody retires from the death squads , the General suffered a nervous breakdown from the exposure to the conflict in his heart to protect civilians and yet not injure the exploited children used as shields.
Flight 93 and the movie United 93 showed the will of those who choose peace and have the survival spirit , and those idiot hijackers and the one with the bomb were actually more afraid of living than dieing .
We need to show the Islamists we're crazier then they are, and challenging the idiot to push the button on the bomb switch would have made his soil his pants from the bluff.
Once the suicide mission was obvious there is no downside except allowing the plane to reach its target and murder more civilians,what i saw was the typical hysterical basket cases that usual stop at car accidents to scream and say that "Somebody should help them" or " I feel so sorry for them" .
These types should never get a job in Emergency rooms where injured people need help and not tears and whailings of misery and "Why..why...oh why did it happen" , hospitals aren't grieving Centre's for the lucky ones that aren't sick, they are for the sick to help them get better and sometimes it hurts to re-set that bone or remove that organ.
I remember a Mother being dragged out of a room because she couldn't handle her baby getting a blood sample taken, the baby cried and she went nuts as if the Nurse actually wanted to hurt the baby in a Hospital room.
I came out of a serious auto accident with only a chipped bone in my right hand and a hairline crack in a shoulder bone, i was tossed through the air and people saw me land on my feet and walk back to my motorcycle that was imbeded in the truck of a car from a stuck throttle and run-away bike .
The Police didn't lay charges because the witnesses all told the same story , and the fact that i walked into the ambulance and the Police saw me cleared at the Hospital there was little a judge would do to blame me .
I should have died that day , even my legs only had bruises and yet they broke off the handle bar mounting brackets and upper fork yokes when I slid forward to go over the frontend on impact.
Good luck trying to bluff me at 35,000 feet, it's usually a sudden death and I'd never give them the satifaction of believing they controlled me with their attempt to inflict fear, as long as I appear crazier than the person threatening me
it changes the balance of power.

I've been at car accidents, I've seen dead people, and that last thing they need is an emoptional basket case peeing their pants and yelling for OTHER people to help them, we are so lucky to have rescue teams that see past the tears and would care more about my Justice to punish the killer than to harp about how my body parts are making them sick and someone should clean up the mess .

Posted by: ala-sux at April 30, 2006 8:14 PM

DP111, you are missing the point. Yes, various Western governments are failing in their basic duty to protect their citizens. But this means that the duty now devolves on the citizens themselves, atrophied though their sense of personal responsibility has become under decades of welfare statism. (It seems that the welfare state is a regime which makes the false promise of absolute security, and thereby gradually accustoms its citizens to thinking that personal security is an absolute right--to be protected, therefore, at no matter what cost to other people.)

It is perhaps acceptable to act in one's self-interest at others' expense under conditions of moral anarchy, where the people one is hurting could be expected to take no account of one's own interests if the positions were reversed. But that is clearly not the case here, since Hirsi Ali has already acted with courage and selflessness on behalf of all Dutch people, including those who are now repaying her with an eviction order. If you can't see anything disgusting in this there is probably not much hope for you. I might prove a coward in a similar situation, but at least I would know I was being a coward.

You say,

"So what do you do? Do you walk about in fear, and assault any muslim who looks sideways at you. Or do you simply go about till one day you end up in the morgue from a sneak attack by a couple of Jihadis. Or do you form a gang of like minded people, as Spartacus did and wage war on those who wage war on you. That would mean the end of the rule of law."

If your fellow citizens are waging war on you without fear of retribution from the state, the rule of law has already ceased to exist, incredible though this idea may seem to an Englishman.

Posted by: snowpea at April 30, 2006 9:08 PM

To Paolo -- After considering what you said (with some unnecessary aggression, I thought) and what Libbysmom said, my thinking has clarified and I've changed my mind. For one thing, of course the situation today is not as morally impossible as was Stalin's Russia. In the democratic West the center has not, by secret police etc., set every man and every family against every other as possible informers. So there seems little excuse for an inward-looking morality focused on children or family alone.

We are in this war together, though, so sacrifices and risks should be to some reasonable degree shared when possible -- which means that if a disproportionately large risk falls on families in one building (as with Hirsi Ali), the rest of the nation or the larger community should take up part of that burden by paying for some significant additional security to the people living near Hirsi Ali. If the state doesn't acknowledge and support its own war and those who are making special sacrifices for it, then when the sacrificers nevertheless fight on independently, they deserve special credit -- and when they refuse to fight on alone without special support (as perhaps was the case with these families around Hirsi Ali), their moral failure would seem to be also the failure of every one of us who has taken it easy when we could have done more to mobilize our fellows and community to give special support to those making special sacrifices. Unless we ourselves are making special sacrifices already. And I doubt all those in this thread who have condemned these families for booting Hirsi Ali are making special sacrifices or taking special risks or doing all they can to wake up the larger community that we are in a war (particularly in Europe) with totalitarian aggressors. I understand you have a blog on these issues under your own real name, Paolo, so I am not hinting reproaches toward you or anyone else personally. You alone know if you are doing your share and all you can. - Omar

Libbysmom said:

Allowing a child to see such a terrible wrong done to Hirsi Ali would harm the child as much as it would that brave woman in question.

To Ovidius_naso:

On this question I have learned from Paolo and especially from Libbysmom. They have changed my views. As for you, there was no cause for you to speak rudely. I am quite prepared to consider that a contribution of mine was mistaken. Do you think you make it easier for me to learn if you are disrespectful and hostile? That sort of gratuitous conversational violence has something to do with the anonymity of the internet. People know they can get away with indulging their fanatical emotions about what they believe, so they go ahead and indulge their half-blind first or second impulses to insult and attack, and to hell with any minimum of consideration for others. Impatience is also responsible: few people have the time to correct the first draft of a post -- so they express their first subjective emotions, which often are extreme and cause them to rampage destructively through the discussion like a bull through the proverbial china shop. "Screw discussion or reflection, I'm going to beat people over the head with my truth, I'm so certain of it!"

One reason I very much respect Spencer: Like few intellectuals, he seems pretty much without the petty form of ego -- and without animus toward those who disagree with him -- he doesn't take it as an affront, just reports, analyzes, reasons, and does so very forcefully, yet nevertheless seems gentle in spirit toward his opponents. Clearly Spencer is not someone who ever pulls his intellectual punches. He just expresses them with decency and compassion and like an adult whose ego won't collapse merely if others say something at variance with his views. The rare thing: an adult. What I wanna be when I grow up.

Ovidius_naso, I now think the comparison you objected to in my post was indeed a comparison of limited value (though not utterly worthless, as you portrayed it). I see that the comparison was of limited value for reasons some of which you mentioned. To that extent, I happily bow to you. Though in truth your rudeness made it difficult to understand you. What helped tranform my view was reading libbysmom's response. I don't see how you help yourself, or Spencer, or this site's cause by being rude. People need to pull together against the Islamic totalitarianism rising in Europe and elsewhere and learn from each other, not insult and gratuitously attack each other. If allies insult each other it only helps the enemy. - Omar

Posted by: www.islamquest.blogspot.com at May 1, 2006 4:04 AM

Snowpea

I dont think I'm missing the point. As you said, "Yes, various Western governments are failing in their basic duty to protect their citizens. But this means that the duty now devolves on the citizens themselves".

Which is precisely my point. The whole point of a civic society is that individuals do not take the law into their hands. The compact between the citizen and the state is destroyed as a consequence, and this inevitably lead to anarchy.

Paolo

That was very brave of you.

As you may know, I have known of the threat that islam poses the West since the Rushdie affair in the early eighties. At the time I wrote about the danger to freedom of expression, to papers in Britain. I was encouraged by the response but there were also numerous threatening telephone calls at all odd hours of the night. With a young family, you will realise this was not pleasant at all. The police at the time, and still are, clueless of the Jihad, and were no help at all, except to tell me to keep quiet. Unlike now, when many more know of the Jihad, I was left isolated and all alone.

Pelayo posted : I can guess by the spelling of "neighbours' that DP111 is living in Britian or some other colony.

Good detective work.

I thought most regulars at this site knew that.
-------------------------------------
Bank Holiday weekend and the sun is out. I think I will start a BBQ and put some pork chops on, and crack open a beer.

Posted by: DP111 at May 1, 2006 7:55 AM

Snowpea posted
If your fellow citizens are waging war on you without fear of retribution from the state, the rule of law has already ceased to exist, incredible though this idea may seem to an Englishman.

Snowpea, you have no idea of the state of law and order in Britain. It is not just the Jihadis but general state of law and order. Go over to the site below

http://uppompeii.blogspot.com/

Posted by: DP111 at May 1, 2006 8:02 AM

Since mention of my blog has got me some compliments I don't really deserve, I would like to make the point that, first, only maybe a dozen people read it, and, second, it is not really anti-Islam at all - I think I may have mentioned Islam perhaps twice since I started it. It is mostly a personal diary, and if it has a running theme, it is the Catholic faith. But some discussions with friends led me to publish the cartoons, each with an individual comment, and conclude with a firm statement that Muslims must not be allowed to set the terms of our debate about their religion, either by intimidation or by suggestion or by any other means.

Considering that hundreds of other bloggers had already done it before me, there is nothing very brave about this. At best, it is what I spoke of earlier - another call that, in the tyrants' face, "I am Spartacus too," or that, as I said earlier, we are all Danish now.

Posted by: Paolo at May 1, 2006 9:49 AM

Being aquainted with Dutch circumstances rather well I would not be surprised if those neighbours where of the "naturalised" sort,i.e.immigrated maroccans with a Nederlands nationality by brandnew E.U. passport. To the Dutch themselves that would mean this lot would belong to "them".
Having been legally stoned for a long time the Dutch found the behaviour of "them" rather on the rough side, but, after all they supplied and ran all the coffeeshops=(legal marihuana dens)and sometimes some of this legal dope money even found its way into founding one or the other football stadium. But in general "them" did somehow not assimilate into this Dutch idea of ultimate post-war liberty, and "them" did bring all their families, and then it was too late.
Since the Theo van Gogh incident the Dutch are actually very aware that they´ve invited a black wolf in a sheepskin into their ultimate liberal paradise, and they also are very aware that it is too late.
I personally feel sorry for the lot, even if they want to do something, they will have to clear it with the E.U., which is ridiculous: the E.U. just being a few containers of signed paper.
..and tenants in a housing complex in a big dutch city are generally not Dutch by bloodstrain, but by passport. The offspring of generations of political refugees from other countries. An enormous percentage of these from any and all sort of islamic countries. These have now learned how to use western tools and procedures to make things work for them.
The very most of them are not even aware that they are tools in this menace calling itself Islam.
So, it looks like Holland will be the first Black Hawk Down... or will it be Sweden?

Our shiny light of Freedom. We always will be stronger !!!

Posted by: cosmicAvenger at May 1, 2006 12:49 PM

So long, Netherlanders - you were brave for a while, but in the end, it was Dutch courage.

BDV

Posted by: Ben De Vries at May 16, 2006 1:46 AM