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In a Jihad Watch essay, the European writer Fjordman, whose blog illumninated the Islamization of Europe for quite some time, describes the plight of all too many non-Muslim women who marry Muslim men:
There are significant numbers of non-Muslim women who have become involved with Muslim men through marriage. An extremely high percentage of these relationships break down. It could be a good idea to take a look at certain Islamic ideas regarding relations with non-Muslim women, some of them not always openly expressed, so that other women may gain some insight into what to expect if they do get involved in such a relationship.The Norwegian organization Human Rights Service, dealing with issues related to immigration and women's rights in particular, features an essay online written by a Norwegian woman, for security reasons using the pseudonym "Marie." She tells of how, when the relationship with her Muslim husband ended, he signalled quite clearly that their child was "his property." He also threatened her physically if she disobeyed him, and has threatened repeatedly to kidnap the child and bring it to his Islamic home country. In an article in the Middle East Times entitled "Beyond homesickness: Western wives in Egypt," American "Karen" tells of her experiences in Egypt:
With Karen's niqab (veil) covering up most of her face, you can still see bitterness in her eyes. You can hear resentment in her voice as she tells her story. She claims to speak on behalf of many Western women living in Egypt, married to, or divorced from, Egyptians. After converting to Islam, Karen moved to Egypt with a few other women who shared with her idealistic ideas about living in a Muslim-majority country. They were soon confronted with the reality about the people's "ignorance of Islam" and deviation from its teachings. "It's a men's country, [where] men don't take women seriously ... and tend to take advantage of them." (…) She decided she couldn't stay in Egypt unless married and she accepted a marriage offer by an Egyptian man, a decision that she regrets. Cultural differences made Karen feel "oppressed" in her marriage. (…) Karen chose to remain in Egypt after her divorce. She likes the religious basis that bounds them. It was her decision to wear niqab -- uninfluenced by her ex-husband -- out of religion-related motives. Karen also likes the "healthy family structure" in Egypt.Hugh Fitzgerald of Jihad Watch has written several insightful essays about this topic:
"I was just a stepping stone to a green card," said one victim of visa fraud. "I married a terrorist. I married somebody who did not like America, who didn't like Americans." I have known one or two of these stepping-stones. Some are complete innocents, others don't want to know. But it is not always the Green Card alone. Sometimes it is the Green Card, and the stepping-stone's property, or even inheritance, as well. And it happens all over Europe as well as in North America and Australia. Indeed, one can find guides on Muslim websites for the "muhajiroun" (Holy Warriors) as to the advantages of marrying an Infidel woman. And since women are essentially chattel, who really cares what happens to them?
There is something not neutral, not innocent, something disturbing, about the Western women who choose to live in Muslim countries for a short or long period, and when they do, and find it necessary (or sometimes even without finding it necessary) to the dress code for local women, do so uncomplainingly, willingly adapt, at times with a certain secret pleasure. The most advanced women born into Islam (starting with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Homa Arjmand, Azam Kamguian) try to become free of this male-imposed dress when they can; the most un-advanced, most primitive women in the non-Muslim world, on the other hand, find themselves not only finding nothing wrong in "Islam's treatment of women," but justifying and even celebrating what some of them call a "portable seclusion," instead of addressing the attitudes and behavior of Muslim men toward women (any female traveller to Muslim countries can be called to the witness-stand) that might make such "portable seclusion" necessary. You see: it's fun. It's a kind of civilizational slumming, or rather, a rapid abandonment of all supposed principles that supposedly meant so much to them at home. Where be that famous feminism now?
It is highly recommended for non-Muslims to read some of the Islamic websites giving online fatwas, religious rulings on specific matters related to Islamic law. Be aware that some of the ones in English are "softened" in tone to cater to a non-Muslim audience and give them a "positive" image of Islam, but there are still some that give a fairly accurate picture of Islamic thinking. One such websites is Islam Q&A. This is not an extremist website, but rather a site that provides a good insight into Islamic mentality, based on authentic Islamic texts. Here is a small selection of quotes about marriage to non-Muslim women that any Western woman getting involved with a Muslim man should read and understand:
The married woman should remember that obedience to her husband takes precedence over obedience to her parents. (…) sharee'ah almost commanded women to prostrate to men, were it not for the fact that it is not permissible for anyone to prostrate to any human being. 'Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: "Marriage is slavery, so be careful with regard to whom you give your daughter for enslavement." In al-Tirmidhi and elsewhere it is narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "I urge you to treat women well, for they are prisoners with you." So a woman is like a slave or prisoner of her husband, and she cannot go out of his house except with his permission."
It is not obligatory for the Muslim husband "to have the approval of his first wife if he wants to marry a second wife." Moreover, Allah "has enjoined disciplining women" by hitting them, when they do not obey their husband, for instance by going out of the house without his permission. This is based upon verse 4.34 in the Koran: "Men are overseers over women, by reason of that wherewith Allah hath made one of them excel over another, and by reason of that which they expend of their substance. Wherefore righteous women are obedient, and are watchers in husbands absence by the aid and protection of Allah. And those wives whose refractoriness ye fear, exhort them, and avoid them in beds, and beat them; but if they obey you, seek not a way against them; verily Allah is ever Lofty, Grand."
One of the conditions for a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman is that "the Muslim man should be in charge of the family." This includes bringing up their children as good Muslims. What the woman thinks of the choice of religion is completely irrelevant in this regard. She is little more than his servant and a machine for making Muslim babies to expand the Islamic Ummah:
The husband "does have the right to forbid her to go out of the house, even if she is going to go out to go to church, because she is commanded to obey him. He also has the right to forbid her to commit evil openly in the house, such as setting up statues or ringing bells. That also includes celebrating innovated festivals, such as Easter, because that is an evil action according to Islam." It is not permissible for a Muslim "to allow his wife from among the People of the Book to celebrate her festivals in his home, for the man is in charge of that woman and she does not have the right to openly celebrate her festivals in his home, because of the resulting effects of corruption, forbidden things and display of the symbols of kufr (disbelief, infidelity) in his home. He should keep his children from taking part in those innovated festivals, because the children belong to the father and he should keep them away from these forbidden celebrations."
This condition of the children being raised as Muslims is absolute, and "a Muslim should not put himself in a position where he will be forced to raise his child as a kaafir (infidel) in a non-Muslim country, where a child may be forced to study something about Christianity, for example, or he may be taken to church on Sundays, or the law may be on the side of the non-Muslim woman, allowing her to raise him in her family's religion, etc." IslamOnline, too, agrees: "If a Muslim man marries a non-Muslim woman, then their children should be raised up as Muslims."
One of the most frequent warnings to Muslim men planning to marry women from the People of the Book, the Koranic term for Christians and Jews, dhimmis or second-rate citizens in an Islamic society, is that "the states and governments of these women will give them custody of the children. This will cause these children to be lost and to fall into kufr." With this in mind, it is recommended that the Muslim "should try to move to a Muslim country where you will be able to give your children a sound upbringing, because staying in the kaafir lands is not permissible except in cases of necessity or where it serves the interests of the Muslims."
Many Western or non-Muslim women have noticed that their previously charming Muslim boyfriend suddenly became a lot more possessive once they had married or got a child. As one of them tells, "when they are engaged, they promise you everything, but after you are married, they give you nothing. After marriage, you are like a slave---supposed to be ready at their every beck and call!" This is what I will call the Reverse Frog Syndrome. Young girls have fantasies about finding a prince to marry, especially a frog that turns into a prince when kissed by the right girl. But sometimes you can also marry a prince that turns into a frog. This can happen in all countries, of course, but it seems to be much more frequent in some cultures than in others. One well-known case of a woman that married a charming, seemingly Westernized man in the USA who turned into The Muslim From Hell as soon as they went to his home country is Betty Mahmoody, made famous through the book and the movie "Not Without My Daughter." During a summer "vacation" in Iran, her Iranian husband suddenly turned around 180 degrees and became a very conservative Muslim. For a year and a half, Betty and her daughter were held hostage by her husband and his family. He forced her wife to wear a veil, informed her that they would never return to the United States and threatened to kill her if she should try to escape.
This is not at all uncommon. These aggressive, Islamic traits are see most clearly once a relationship between a Muslim man and a non-Muslim woman breaks down. To a Muslim, it is simply intolerable that an inferior woman, and a non-Muslim one to boot, can defy his authority in such a way. It's an insult to his integrity and his honor that cannot go unpunished. If they have children, it is his right, indeed duty as stated by Allah, to ensure that these children, his rightful property, are given an Islamic upbringing. If that means taking them by force from the mother, so be it. Helge Tangen in the Norwegian police section Kripos says that there has been an explosive increase in the number of abduction cases in recent years. Statistics from Denmark show that these children are usually taken to countries in the Middle East. Tangen does not doubt that "Multicultural marriages" increase the risk for such child abductions. In June 2004, Swedish mother Elizabeth Krantz's five children were kidnapped from Sweden by Krantz's estranged Palestinian husband Ismail Nowajah. The children were taken to the Gaza Strip against their will and in contravention of Swedish law. Ismail Nowajah said he disapproved of the upbringing his children were getting in Sweden, where they were born, and that he wished to bring them up according to a stricter Islamic code. Nowajah signalled, however, that he was willing to release the children back into the custody of their mother in exchange for five million Swedish kronor (about 720,000 US dollars).
This is why the Vatican has warned Catholic women to think hard before marrying a Muslim. Calling women "the least protected member of the Muslim family," it spoke of the "bitter experience" western Catholics had with Muslim husbands, especially if they married outside the Islamic world and later moved to his country of origin. What about Christian men who may marry Muslim women? Not a problem: such marriages are forbidden by Islamic law. A Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim woman, but not vice versa. Even Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat married a Christian woman. This is, as we have seen, to ensure that the head of the household is always a Muslim, and to ensure that any children born from an inter-religious marriage will be raised as Muslims, thus contributing to advancing the cause of Islamic supremacy on earth. If a non-Muslim woman gets children with a Muslim man, she basically becomes a tool of Jihad.
Abduction cases are even worse in countries where Muslims form an overwhelming majority. In 2004, two Pakistani children were snatched away from their Christian mother by their Muslim father. As a teenager of 17, the children's Christian mother, Maria Samar John, had been abducted and held prisoner for five months until her Muslim captors literally sold her for the equivalent of $2,000, her name was changed to Kalsoom and she was forced to thumbprint a certificate of so-called "conversion" to Islam. For the next two and one-half years, she was a virtual slave, locked in the house and beaten by both her husband and mother-in-law for refusing to say the Muslim prayers. She had borne a son and was pregnant for the second time when she found a mislaid house key and managed to flee her captors to return home. Soon afterwards, her husband sent men to recapture her.
The situation is even more difficult for non-Muslim women who not only marry a Muslim man, but also convert to Islam, sometimes due to pressure from his family. On the Internet, a German woman who has married a Saudi man, converted to Islam and moved to Saudi Arabia wrote a post on her blog titled "A good fake Muslima:"
I only became a Muslima because my husband asked me to. (…) I hadn't problems respecting Islam. Unlike Christianity it doesn't come along with a shameful history and more skeletons in the cellar than the human mind can imagine. It might have had its fair share of idiots and culprits marching over dead bodies in order to conquer new grounds but compared to Christianity their numbers were small. Throughout centuries, Islam presented itself as an enlightened and rather peaceful religion.
Now, what happens if this "fake" Muslima decides that she no longer wants to be a fake, and that Islam is not quite as "enlightened and peaceful" as she had been told? Well, according to traditional Islamic law, a man leaving Islam should be executed, as Muhammad himself said: "Whoever changes his religion [leaves Islam], execute him." A woman leaving Islam gets slightly softer treatment, she is after all only a women and thus with a mental capacity closer to that of a child. Some argue that it will suffice to "just" imprison her in the house until she repents or death takes her.
If she lives in a non-Muslim country, she may be slightly less in danger of being killed, but her marriage to the Muslim man will in any case be finished. The man should divorce her and leave her. A Muslim man may be married to a Christian of Jewish woman, but not one that is considered a non-believer. If she leaves Islam, their marriage becomes null and void, because the Koran says: "Likewise hold not the disbelieving women as wives"
Muhammad has said that "war is deceit." Lying to non-Muslims in permitted in Islam if this helps to advance the Islamic cause. Another quote by Muhammad is that to tell a lie is forbidden in Islam except on three occasions: In war, to reconcile two opposing parties and to your women. This means that non-Muslims, and non-Muslim women in particular, should never take anything said by Muslims at face value. To get some insight into what many Muslims really think of Western women, notice the extremely high number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in Western countries. If "Marie" had done more research before she got too involved with a Muslim man, perhaps she wouldn't be a virtual prisoner in her own home now. It is possible for non-Muslim women to gather information from the Internet about the darker sides of Islamic culture, and learn from the bitter experiences made by others. If they fail to do so, they could find themselves entangled in something they cannot easily escape from, perhaps trapped in it for the rest of their lives.
Posted by Robert at May 18, 2006 9:25 AM
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Well, duh....What does this tell us that we already didn't know? Oh, that 'Marie' was/is stupid. Ok. That Karen and Elizabeth were/are stupid? Ok. As Ron says, theres no cure for stupid.
Posted by: SCV![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at May 18, 2006 10:21 AM
I hope this article sends a warning to non-Muslim women to stay away from Muslim men and mariage. It is enough that women in Islam have to deal with the oppression of that faith; but for non-Muslim women, it can be horrible.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at May 18, 2006 10:22 AM
Unlike Christianity it doesn't come along with a shameful history...The EU's new history. It's doubleplusgood rightthink. In thirty years the EU has managed to expunge 1,300+ years of Islamic imperialism. From the early conquests, Tamerlane's pyramids of human heads in India, to the Ottoman's brutality, even kidnapping of the first born, it's all been washed away through the European Arab Dialogue.
Not to mention all the false claims which ascribe western or Roman inventions to Muslims, also EU approved.
Europe is doomed so long as the EU's political schemes and plans for global dominance trump observation and common sense.
Posted by: Beagle at May 18, 2006 10:29 AM
I was watching the Islam channel on Sky and a Muslim was saying without any form of irony that it is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a non Muslim woman as long as she bears Muslim children and those children are the sole responsibility of the Man to do what he wants with. A non Muslim marrying a Muslim woman is totally forbidden and the man must convert to Islam to marry a Muslim woman. Sort of like being made to swim in a cesspit for love, ain't no love worth that!
Posted by: IceDragon at May 18, 2006 10:35 AM
Here in my state, Muslim men are actively pursuing relationships with Hispanic immigrant women. I know of one case where the woman worked for us and all of a sudden began showing up for work in a hijab. She began to proseletize other employees, ask for prayer time and became a general liability on the business. She soon after married the man, and at last count had three children of mixed Mexican/Pakistani decent.
The woman went from being a fairly committed LDS member to being a full-on Muslim. Through her acquaintances, three of her friends have also married Muslims. Needless-to-say, we found a replacement for such a weak-minded employee.
I have brought this up in other topics, but what is concerning to me is the ability of Islam to placate and pander to the lower elements of our society. I am positive that there is a focus on Hispanic immigrants using the tenets of egalitarianism and inclusion which some Hispanic immigrants feel they are not experiencing in the U.S.
Posted by: detocquevilledisciple at May 18, 2006 10:43 AM
"Well, duh....What does this tell us that we already didn't know?"
People SHOULD know this, but not everybody does. That's the point.
at May 18, 2006 10:43 AM
For the life of me, I can't understand why a western woman with all the benefits and freedoms that men have, would want to become a cloaked slave. If the only difference in the two cultures was something as simple as what color wine to have with dinner it could be acceptable. If these women had brains, they would do a simple background google check and see what their culture expects of them and their men.
I'm sure they have had red flags before marriage and chose to ignore them. One of my friends dated one back at Berkley and when she picked up the koran one day, he went apesh#t. Big red flag!
I'm going to go out on a limb on this, but, I wonder how many of those women are seeing money and marriage(for the sake of being married).
If they are stupid enough to believe in romance with a muslim man, they are sorely mistaken. There is no romance in islam. If they're looking for adventure with these men....they are in for the ride of their life. A dangerous ride.
Posted by: freewoman at May 18, 2006 11:05 AM
Back when I was 12 I had a crush on a 18 year old close family friend, she ended up marring a Muslim man that I use to have a lot of respect for. Now that as*hole maxed out all her business credit cards ($255,500 worth) bankrupted her business and talked her into moving to Morocco with him to avoid paying them back. After she had a son with him everything turned into a real nightmare for her. She secretly stole $3000 from him (which happened to be her money when she lived in the States) and asked me to hold on to it just in case she leaves him along with her son. I now have that money in a separate bank account just waiting to buy her a plane ticket home in a second's notice. I'm worried to death that he will kill her if he finds the money missing, with God's help I hope she makes it back to the States soon.
Posted by: billybob at May 18, 2006 11:06 AM
I too thought it was interesting and well-worth posting.
Maybe this blog is more useful for "beginners" (like me) than people well-versed in Islamic religion and culture? And perhaps that can be annoying for those with substantial knowledge. But I think that there are so many people ignorant of Islam etc etc that exploring the same basic themes is probably an unavoidable necessity.
I had a strange experience recently in which I ran into some people on a blog (you probably know it) who thought the cartoons affair was completely unimportant and in fact deny that "Islamofascism" even exists. I can see that some might about the intrinsic nature of Islam but to deny that (for example) an organization which calls itself "Islamic Jihad" is in (at least!) some measure motivated by Islam is just too spooky. There are an awful lot of people in total denial -- it's weird. Maybe it's because the truth itself is quite troubling.
Posted by: Raw Data at May 18, 2006 11:10 AM
A Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim woman, but not vice versa. Even Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat married a Christian woman.
Strange his niece marrying George Galloway, a Catholic. I thought at one time Gorgeous had secretly "reverted" to Islam, but he says he believes in the resurrection, so this is unlikely.
Posted by: Interested at May 18, 2006 11:13 AM
Sally Field starred in a movie "Not Without My Daughter" (1991) about an American woman who married an Iranian (Molina). Actually, it's rather good and shows just how brutal and horrible Islam is.
Posted by: Seymour Paine at May 18, 2006 11:32 AM
"Even Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat married a Christian woman."
-- from a posting above
Arafat, well-known for his taste in boys, especially among his guards and also among blonde Germans, was told by his advisers that a single terrorist leader, in possession of a good fortune he had stolen from the aid donated by Infidels, must be in want of a wife. And so they found someone sufficiently grasping and willing, for the right price, who for the proper swag would endure, in all senses, the gag. And a good time was had by all -- and Suha is still having a good time, going to modish fashion shows on Avenue Montaigne, spending all that money once =supplied "for the Palestinian people" by Infidel taxpayers in Europe and America on her expensively-dressed if hideously vulgar self, and not really giving any of it a thought.
One problem: while the Infidel governments never seem to mind where their Jizyah-aid ends up, for they can always squeeze more out of their long-suffering taxpayers, some members ot that "Palestinian people" no doubt would like to separate Suha from her undeserved allowance. Hence her bodyguards. Query: paid for by the French government, and thus by French Infidel taxpayers, adding insult to injury? Or paid for by Suha herself out of the hundreds of millions, or more, in loot, that she managed to get away with?
Just one more fascinating question for French taxpayers, and other Infidels, to consider.
Posted by: Hugh at May 18, 2006 12:02 PM
Sofia , I saw that movie several times since it first aired. And each and every time it makes me angry. I made my hubby see it a few weeks back and it angered him!! It also goes to show the lengths and dire straits a woman will go through for the sake of her child. Unlike how we know muslim women who strap bombs on their children and then rejoice in their death.
Who in their right mind would join a cult that only respects half of the members when the half it doesn't respect, is your own?
Posted by: freewoman at May 18, 2006 12:13 PM
Isn't preaching a doctrine that insists men can marry one category of the opposite sex, which women are not allowed to, in breach of sex equality legislation? In fact I'm surprised these mullahs aren't taken to court and hauled over the coals for all their incitement to illegal, unequal treatment of the sexes. But then I suppose people only obey these rules voluntarily: surely no religion would allow its believers to feel they have the right to punish other believers who flagrantly breach its rules, by violence if necessary?
Posted by: wallyUK at May 18, 2006 12:58 PM
This quote of a German Infidel woman seduced by Islam, from Hugh's essay:
Unlike Christianity it doesn't come along with a shameful history and more skeletons in the cellar than the human mind can imagine. It might have had its fair share of idiots and culprits marching over dead bodies in order to conquer new grounds but compared to Christianity their numbers were small. Throughout centuries, Islam presented itself as an enlightened and rather peaceful religion.
This attitude is I believe a major motivation for the idiotic whitewashing of and respect for Islam found among too many Infidels: they've been inculcated by their own Western culture to hate their own Western culture -- and by default, to find Islam attractive (at worst), or to find Islam unobjectionable (at best). Weird, huh?
We Jihad Watchers might think that all these Western idiots need are a few facts, and they will magically and suddenly wake up to be Jihad Watchers like us. I think their minds have been far more subtly and powerfully affected than that. It will take much more than mere presentation of facts to re-orient our Western idiots -- or, rather, to re-Occidentalize them. I know from personal experience: my older, very intelligent American-born sister (of Austrian extraction) who has lived her entire life in the USA is one of them. Her admiration for Islam and Islamic culture remains impervious to facts.
at May 18, 2006 1:35 PM
"[the] movie "Not Without My Daughter" (1991) ... shows just how brutal and horrible Islam is."
Actually, that movie shows how brutal and horrible Iranians are -- there are no overt indications of Islam itself in the movie.
With our popular culture, particularly movies, we keep getting things that are close but no cigar. It's time we had a major movie that showed full frontal Islam in all its corruption and evil. It won't happen, though, not for at least another couple of decades, at best.
at May 18, 2006 1:40 PM
Assalamau Laikum all,
Ofcourse it is true there are many manipulative nasty muslim mens....just like many nasty westerners.
That many will try to lure slutty wild womens into marriage is obvious if they want to live in the West and ofcourse many do. These men should love these womens as their life padner....but many find the over the top, highly developed sense of rebellion, not wanting to share her husbands values a bit hard to take.
Muslim men have a huge sense of macho-man, they can also have a red mist around their brain when it comes to theire padner wnating to flaunt thier religious & core values. Follow them and the muslim man can be highly sensitive & erotic man....I think the wind slutty womens only see this side of things.
The institution of marriage should not be taken lighty...like it is in the west ...with 1 in 3 marriages breaking up...hardly a promotion of core westerern valus.
Compare that that 1 in 3000 divorces in Islam and you can also see the stability that Islam can offer.
My son is courting a westerm woman...and I have tried to be transparent, she know that she will become a muslim...if she CHOOSES to marry him.
Posted by: Naseem at May 18, 2006 1:55 PM
Naseem , please tell us the values that muslim men have. I can't seem to recall what they are.
And if a man (even a muslim man) were to pick a woman to marry, why would he pick the "wild and slutty" kind?
Please explain the "red mist". I don't know what that is.
And one thing I can tell you about our divorces here, is, you can't just say the divorce word three times and it's over. It takes a while and then the man HAS to help provide for his child if the woman gets custody. AND, if they've been married a while, he pays maintenance. We women here don't have to worry as much as muslim women when it comes to being thrown out on the street and our children starving.
And Please, PLEASE, explain to your future daughter what she's getting into. Please send her to JW.
at May 18, 2006 2:17 PM
To paraphrase the Bard:
"Some are born stupid, some acquire stupidity, some have stupidity thrust upon them."
The first option we can do almost nothing about. The third option we can resist through vigilance and education. The second is insidious, for those who willfully pursue path of self-destruction can justify it with any number of half-baked, hare-brained arguments.
Nevertheless, education is the only remedy for such benighted souls. It is possible to love and adhere to one's own culture without or denigrating others. Minimally, the Golden Rule should be the coin of the realm when it comes to interactions between cultures and religious traditions.
These women who take Moslem husbands must be mindful of that. Where is the quid pro quo? Where is the Moslem recognition that an individual must make up their own mind when it comes to religion? Do these women really believe that their offspring will be better off being born into a belief system that they can never repudiate?
Posted by: Chatillon at May 18, 2006 2:26 PM
Ofcourse it is true there are many manipulative nasty muslim mens....just like many nasty westerners.
That's a bit weak, Naseem, isn't it? Really, it's a long the same lines as some of the vague apologetics Mr Esmay was throwing out at Robert Spencer.
If some forms of behaviour were not, at least to some extent, a universal human possibility then I suppose we wouldn't find them anywhere. The problem here is the the sanctification of such attitudes in religious texts and their institutionalization. The problem is also the absence of any effective legal - and social (e.g. women's refuges) - provisions for women who are mistreated. Such provisions exist, to an extent, but only to an extent, in Turkey, but even those will be threatened, of course, by any serious resurgence of Islam, if the Turkish Army cannot keep a lid on things:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2099-2167110,00.html
Posted by: Yojimbo at May 18, 2006 2:32 PM
Thought this might be of interest-- the State Dept.'s warning to US women considering marriage to Saudi men:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_931.html
Posted by: Shinoliite at May 18, 2006 2:34 PM
I have had people challenge me on the issue of Islam - I say one thing - go to an Islamic country, see how the women are treated there and come back and tell me all about it.
Largely we are taught to be open minded and accepting - but in this instance we must be cautious. When you are in an Islamic country the reality of Islam is raw. It is so different from what we know abut how a society functions.
I believe though that a women who marries a Muslim man and doesn't convert to Islam, has more rights in at least some Islamic countries, than if she had converted. This I believe is because as a non-Muslim you remain under the jurisdiction of your original country. If a non-Muslim converts, marriage in a Muslim country is fast tracked, but where the women remains a non-Muslim extra paperwork is needed as this women although married to a Muslim, will remain under the jurisdiction of her original country. Converting means loosing this protection.
Remember however nice the man is - do not convert - as a woman, you will sign your human rights away. Under Islamic law you will be the man's property. You know the old joke, sold for a camel, it could be you or worst your children.
As for the children - I believe that in most Islamic countries you will loose the rights to them - whether you converted or not. Though I think Morocco just updated its laws, giving women more rights in divorce. But the judicial system there is corrupt; you will need to understand how it works and possibly be willing to pay bribes.
But for your own sake or for anyone you might know who is involved with a Muslim man - tell them not to convert to Islam. It is not cute to loose your human rights.
In Islamic countries many Islamic man will attempt to marry Western women, to gain access to the richer country. And to do this they may be willing to remain in a relationship with you for quite some time. They will only marry their own women if they are virgins. So if they are going with you - then that is for one purpose only and that is to gain status in your country. Some people may not want to hear this. Beware of the constant pressure to marry – does he love you that much! Normally this man will be married to his first cousin – they don’t marry for love.
The French are in the process of passing laws to restrict families from bringing their relatives from – mainly Islamic countries to France. Other countries may follow.
When dealing with Muslim men it is important to have a sense of responsibility. What will this guy offer your country? Does he really love you – will he be happier marrying a relative? Will you be willing to submit mindlessly to his will? Will you be willing to be marginalized as a human being and become a second class citizen? Are you prepared to give up your freedom to this man? Is he just using you?
Posted by: Pass It On at May 18, 2006 2:41 PM
IF they're not marrying them they are attacking them, well I say attacking, but only if they are defenceless 6 year olds. Look:-
http://en.france-echos.com/?p=86
at May 18, 2006 3:03 PM
"The French are in the process of passing laws to restrict families from bringing their relatives from – mainly Islamic countries to France. Other countries may follow."
-Pass It On
Denmark passed such laws a few years ago, which is why we have earned the reputation as being "xenophobic" by the PC dhimmis of Europe and the UN. We may well be the spearhead of similar laws being passed abroad, as apparently is what happens in France right now. No doubt it will be easier as more countries follow suit, it just so happened that Denmark was destined to take the flak by being among the first.
A "good" sign was the coverage of France on Al-BBCera. Not surprisingly, the tone of the report made it clear that the French were in clear breach of international decorum (OT: I'm fuming with rage against Al-Beeb after they called Ayaan Hirsi Ali "controversial" on their website a couple of days ago. Shows where their perspective lies).
Posted by: anti-uffe at May 18, 2006 3:57 PM
Why would a woman file for divorce in muslim lands? When you are "property" do you think about anything?
Posted by: Borg at May 18, 2006 4:26 PM
Yojimbo asks: "Please explain the "red mist". I don't know what that is."
I may be able to help you out here Yojimbo. I first came across this expression some years ago in forums of a completely differentr nature to this one, namely, Formula 1 racing.
There "Red mist" is used as an expressioon to describe a Ferrari fan's devotion to the team which borders on religeous fervour. They refuse to ackowledge any wrong-doing on the part of the team, or its drivers, no matter how blatant and obvious to everyone else such wrong doing or error is, their vision obscured by "red mist" as it were. For those not familiar with the Grand Prix folklore, red has always been the colour of the Ferrari team.
The "red mist" of the tifosi (ferrari fans) and the "red mist", perhaps blood lust, of the muslim male. Yes, I can see the connection.
Posted by: Xerxes at May 18, 2006 4:34 PM
Wise words from Fjorman. But given the effective campaign of disinformation about the true nature of Islam, any woman considering a relationship with a Muslim man is going to have to do some serious research to find the out the truth. More likely than not, she'll consult an Islamic apologist organization or whatever and get a load of BS she'll buy into, to her eternal misfortune.
And then, if she is able to access some real information, she's got to have the courage to face the truth. Far to many will think "but my guy is different" or "he's too westernized" or whatever excuse they want to think up.
Posted by: Proud Infidel at May 18, 2006 4:49 PM
Fjordman,
Nice work. I have put together an article that deals with some of the same issues. I have quoted some of your other work there.
http://www.islam-watch.org/Archemedez/RebutMuslimRape.htm
at May 18, 2006 4:51 PM
Compare that that 1 in 3000 divorces in Islam and you can also see the stability that Islam can offer.
Are they red or blue rose-tinted, Naseem?
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=10922
at May 18, 2006 5:06 PM
After converting to Islam, Karen moved to Egypt with a few other women who shared with her idealistic ideas about living in a Muslim-majority country.
Nuff said right there, air head, moron, unprintable epithets, I feel absolutely nothing but disgust for anyone who becomes Muslim, and what I feel for a woman who would volunteer to become less than a human, a muslim woman, is beyond the pale and my ability to express.
Naseem is the epitomy of a lack of self respect, and lack of identity, she so vigorously supports, defends and proslytizes the ideology that oppresses her and reduces her to the status of property.
I once heard that more slaves reject and fear freedom, than pursue and lust after it, perhaps it is the Stockholm Syndrome, the fear of the unknown, the comfort of the familiar and/or a complete breakdown of the ego.
I lived in Panama and my suegra (mother in law) would buy a chicken and to introduce it to other chickens, she would tie a leg to the tree which the chickens used as a roost. The chickens roamed free and none even tried to flee the yard.
The newcomer would be pecked at by all of the chickens, and after a week it was adjusted, acclimated, and at home. She would let the chicken free and it climbed the tree and took it's place on the lowerst branch and lowest position, and periodically the Boss hen would peck the next hen, and the pecking continued down the line.
Life in a harem is much like life in a Hen's roost, even if there are no other hen's. How many people (male and female) endure abuse, because they think they deserve it, that it is their fault, or just fear of social ostracism or fear of being thrown out and on their own.
Posted by: Nariz at May 18, 2006 5:18 PM
Slightly OT: Muslim countries top the list for accessing internet porn, including bestial porn.
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002161.html
Posted by: Archimedes at May 18, 2006 5:23 PM
OT, but in a leader in the DT, a case is made that financing the Palestinians actually increases terrorism.
When Hamas was elected earlier this year, the EU brushed aside American objections and handed over 120 million euros. Palestinians responded by ransacking EU diplomatic missions and kidnapping European citizens. But the EU is less interested in the practical consequences of its subsidies than in the message they send. By firehosing cash at the PA, Europeans signal their opposition to Washington, suck up to their Muslim voters and, above all, vent their dislike of Israel. ............Posted by: DP111Most of the world's revolutions have taken place, not at times of rising poverty, but at times of rising wealth and aspirations. Put bluntly, people who are worried about food and shelter have little time to go on demos. It is when they have time to sit and brood that their thoughts turn to bloodshed.
An unconditional welfare state is thus the perfect terrorist habitat. Think of the two London Tube bombers who had been living on income support and housing benefit. Had this option been closed, perhaps they might have found jobs, and so been too busy to work themselves into a suicidal rage.
at May 18, 2006 5:40 PM
I would think being a married woman in islam is like constant dating. You're in constant competition with the other wives. Instead of competition for affection from the man, you're in competition for food for your children, clothing and shelter. There is no peace in an islamic marriage. Forget the fact that she can be beaten for ANY little thing. Those poor women are probably eaten up with jealousy to the point of no return. Constant jealousy. That has to be passed on even subtely to her children and anyone else around her.
So I think it's safe to say that being a married muslim woman is to be demeaned everyday for the rest of her life. And her religion that she so strongly defends, condones it.
So sad.
Posted by: freewoman at May 18, 2006 5:43 PM
Freewoman,
Those are interesting thoughts. It's been suggested that one of the reasons marriage arises (in a society like ours where people are free to choose) is because it puts an end to gnawing existential doubts about whether one's lover/beloved has really accepted one. People seek for confirmation of their acceptance by each other (and also, of course, for their feelings to be recognized by others).
I'd think, as you say, that in Muslim societies where the man has so much power, where (if one has the wherewithal) multiple spouses can be taken, and where divorce is ridiculously easy for the man, the woman might, very often, never be able to to feel that doubt is over. V. S. Naipaul speaks in Beyond the Believers of more than one wounded young man in places like Indonesia, whose father had drifted off, abandoning the family, and starting a second one, when they were still small. It seems to affect the way some people think and feel for the whole of their adult lives. Of course, marriages don't always work in any society, and there's enough family breakdown in the West, but it would be interesting know what the rate of casual abandonment of wives and families is in different Islamic countries.
It would also be interesting to investigate whether the relatively high achievement of Western societies is partly related to stable monogamous marriage with a higher relative status for women. One would suspect that that would result in children who were more psychologically comfortable with the environment they were growing up in and hence, perhaps, able to achieve more throughout life.
Posted by: Yojimbo at May 18, 2006 6:13 PM
"a Muslim should not put himself in a position where he will be forced to raise his child as a kaafir (infidel) in a non-Muslim country, where a child may be forced to study something about Christianity, for example, or he may be taken to church on Sundays, or the law may be on the side of the non-Muslim woman, allowing her to raise him in her family's religion, etc."
Too right - if you don't like a liberal western education and religious freedom for your children - go back to the hellhole you came from.
Naseem, I'm getting extremely tired of you ignoring my advice about grammar. Here it is again: 'men' 'women' and 'children' are already plural and do not need an 's' on the end.
Posted by: Lili at May 18, 2006 6:24 PM
Has anyone referred to Phyllis Chesler's statement about her miserable marriage to an Afghani? Her Muslim captivity. A must read.
Posted by: Jeremiah at May 18, 2006 6:27 PM
Jeremiah, Phyllis was lucky to get out with her life. They could have done an "honor" killing on her and no one would have ever known the truth. Murder.
I feel sorry for the women and I feel very sorry for the children of this mess. I wonder about the jealousy between the half siblings. Sibling rivalry with your own is bad enough, but with children you may not even know would be worse.
I'm a little claustophobic. I can't stand feeling tied down with no way out. If they asked for my passport on arrival, I would just turn around and reboard.
I feel the same about my passport as I do my gun...you can take it after you pry it from my cold dead fingers!!
Posted by: freewoman at May 18, 2006 7:02 PM
Naseem, 1 in 3000 divorces in islam = stability?
Hmmmm. I am guessing there are many more divorces than that because it is so much easier for a man to divorce a woman with just 3 words so there are probably no legal records kept. Figures can lie!
And another thing, it seems to me the need for divorce isn't really there because you practise polygamy! The man just goes and marries yet another woman.Previous wives will stay because they have no choice, unless they are thrown out.
As for stability,,what do you mean? Most islamic countries are stuck in medieval thinking? Is that stability? Nothing has changed in years?
Maybe it has - it is worse!
HELP! I think anarachy is looking good by comparison!
I have yet to hear one good thing about islam. What has it got to offer any sane, educated person?
I agree with above posters: women who marry a muslim have not done their homework and are plain stupid.
I saw the Sally Field movie years ago. I felt I was choking throughout it.I had no idea that things were like this.
Posted by: Gramfan at May 18, 2006 7:07 PM
Caveat emptor.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at May 18, 2006 7:14 PM
Marrying a Muslim is like marrying into the mafia---once you're in, there' no way out, except with your feet forward and the head lying on your bosom---a typical victim of "honor killing."
Curse the barbaric umma.
at May 18, 2006 8:09 PM
Could it be that it is a simple schwanzstucker attraction?
Posted by: Pelayo at May 18, 2006 8:54 PM
It's amazing how many stories there are, for everyone that works out, I know hundreds that don't.
My own personal experience concerns a first cousin a very bright and intelligent girl, a medical doctor, who married a man from Pakistan also a doctor. He appeared to be a very nice man, my uncle was won over.
In the first year of marriage he ran up a $200,000 tab on her credit cards, which the family took care of. After doing his residency, he started to earn money, he began sending all of his salary to his in parents in England. He refused to contribute to support his wife, she paid for most things from her salary. After living with my Uncle for four years they finally found their own place. But soon after that, rented an apartment of his own so he that was closer to the hospital, supposedly so he won't have a long drive when he did the overnight shift. He is rarely at how, ignores his wife and cares very little for the two girls that their marriage has produced.
Last, year she gave birth to a boy and he has taken a bigger interest, the girls were baptisted as catholics, but he wants him be a muslim. The family decided that he would be given a choice as an adult. My uncle became very concerned a steps were taken protect the boy, he maintains good relations with his father who has since moved out for good.
My cousin entered into this marriage after a bitter divorce, something not practiced in our family, where family unity and help has many to overcome rough spots. We concealed against the marriage because we felt the cultural differences were to great but my uncle gave in. It has been a mistake and an unhappy time for all.
at May 18, 2006 9:10 PM
Seriously, some women marry men in prison, men on parole, and men about to go to prison. They also marry men who they know are trouble. Explain this, I can't: Last summer in Tenessee, a woman helped a lifer escape prison, and she killed a guard in the process. They got as far as Ohio. She also took a bullet from one of the other guards.
Did you guys ever see a beautiful woman walking arm in arm with the most hideous example of male humanity you have ever seen? Perhaps you single guys should stop bathing, shaving, and cleaning you fingernails. In other words look like a Mohammedan.
Before I get lynched, I said SOME women.
Posted by: Pelayo at May 18, 2006 9:12 PM
Never mind ACTUALLY MARRYING A Muslim.
It's dangerous enough just being in the same room with one!!!!!
Advice to all brides-to-be in the western democracies (and probably everyone else): if you see a Muslim coming RUN THE OTHER WAY.... FAST!!!!!!!!
Posted by: pythagoras at May 18, 2006 9:13 PM
Lili, Naseem is just being annoying towards infidels just as her "religion" teaches. I refuse to call Mohammedans Muslims. Being an annoying person can be fun.
Posted by: Pelayo at May 18, 2006 9:25 PM
I than getgting angery withj you racist bigot criminal. I see many Muslim women in the Mosque I goto who are happly marraige to one man. Most muslim man are only marry to one woman. The slander about muslim woman haveing no right is false. Second there is also wide spead wife beating in the west also. It you idiot where to log on to belietnet you will fine than more balance view of all the world religion. Than famous Christian woman eval have than daughter who convert to Islam and marry than nice muslim man and she wrote than book about it than about over woman who convert to Islam tittle" Daughter of than Different Path".
In fact wife beating is forbitten in the Koran it just many muslim donot know they religion to well.
Posted by: DefenderofIslam at May 18, 2006 9:48 PM
In fact wife beating is forbitten in the Koran it just many muslim donot know they religion to well.
by defenderofislam
And neither do you defenderofislam.
at May 18, 2006 9:52 PM
we musted have really pissed of naseem,she had to change names.Where's that professer dude,the one who gets his rocks off,when he can find the number 19 in everything?
Posted by: patriot4 at May 18, 2006 9:57 PM
"That many will try to lure slutty wild womens into marriage"
My, my, you are a bigoted barbarian, aren't you?
Posted by: pst314 at May 18, 2006 10:07 PM
I see many Muslim women in the Mosque I goto who are happly marraige to one man. by defenderofislam
How can you tell she's happy? She's in a tent, separated from you guys, and she walks five feet behind her husband, and she's not allowed to talk to other men. How can you tell?
Posted by: freewoman at May 18, 2006 10:07 PM
"you racist bigot criminal"
Ah, yes, we're criminals because we refuse to accept your lies. Keep spouting your filth, you only persuade us more of how deeply flawed Islam is.
Posted by: pst314 at May 18, 2006 10:09 PM
FREEWOMAN: "In fact wife beating is forbitten in the Koran it just many muslim donot know they religion to well."
My Dear, you are either ignorant or a liar. Quranic Surah 4, Verse 34 clearly gives men permission to beat their wives.
--------------------------------------------
4.34: "Men have authority over women because God has made one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, AND BEAT THEM. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them."
Posted by: Cornelius at May 18, 2006 10:15 PM
MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FREEWOMAN!
You were obviously quoting 'Defender-of-Islam.' Sorry for the oversight. It is 'Defender-of-Islam' who is either lying or ignorant of Islam.
Posted by: Cornelius at May 18, 2006 10:17 PM
If you ever saw a muslim woman without the veil you would know why they want western women. The sad part is not that they figured it out, it is the western woman will suffer greatly if she falls for a muslim man. We see reports all the time about how unhappy they are. Have any of you ever read about a good marriage between a western woman and a muslim man? I’d guess even if it happens it is extremely rare. It might even be a thing of legend, like the moderate muslim and bigfoot. We hear about it but no one has any proof of its existence.
Posted by: Ronin at May 18, 2006 10:22 PM
From above: "In fact wife beating is forbitten in the Koran it just many muslim donot know they religion to well."
With all the things carried out in the name of islam that we have been told are forbidden by the Koran is there any muslims on this planet that do know Islam?
at May 18, 2006 10:23 PM
No problem Cornelieus!
Posted by: freewoman at May 18, 2006 10:23 PM
Germans negative on Islam, poll shows:
No wonder, but then again: Liberal judges refuse to take action:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20638_Immigrant_Youths_Freed_After_Gang-Rape&only
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 18, 2006 10:51 PM
DefenderofIslam,
"In fact wife beating is forbitten in the Koran it just many muslim donot know they religion to well. "
If the Koran forbids wife beating, then please explain why Koran 4:34 gives its blessings to wife beating itself?
at May 18, 2006 10:52 PM
Then there was this Muslim girl in Africa who wanted to get out of the cult:
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/lead.php
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 18, 2006 11:01 PM
Scroll down to the bottom of the page
~the six month list of islamic activity.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Why would anyone want to marry into this?
That's easy ~ young people do not read the news and don't know what is going on around the world.
And everyone at JW/DW knows Mohammad beat Aisha and she stated that 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing woman. Check Bukhari and Muslim Hadiths.
defenderofislam~
Read Spencer's book ~ The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam page 69/70
We at JW/DW already have.
Posted by: Borg at May 18, 2006 11:16 PM
Defenderofislam, then why does the Koran have verse about hanging a whip on the wall as a reminder to the wife to keep her place? More taqiyyah and lies.
4 translations:
TEXT FROM THE QURAN, 4:34
RODWELL [1]: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!"
['Refractoriness' means hard or impossible to manage, stubbornly disobedient'].
DAWOOD [2]: "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme."
PICKTHALL [3]: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great."
ARBERRY [4]: "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great."
SHAKIR [5]: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
ALI [6]: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).
Posted by: Bohemond_1069
at May 18, 2006 11:43 PM
Naseem wrote: "My son is courting a western woman"...."she knows that she will become a Muslim if she CHOOSES to marry him"
Are you going to be the mother-in-law from hell?!?
You have such a negative view of "westerners", and you're already telling her that she "will become a Muslim", that I'm afraid this poor girl is doomed to a life of misery with you for a mother-in-law.
And what if she doesn't become Muslim, are you going to accept YOUR SONS CHOICE anyway? I mean, what business is it of yours WHAT she believes! My mother-in-law is no prize, but at least she didn't quiz me on my faith before marrying her son.
Posted by: champ at May 19, 2006 12:58 AM
Bohemond_1069 -
Thanks for posting those passages from the Quran, because I had no idea it said such outrageous things about how men treat women. Those passages give me yet another reason for hating Islam and their false prophet, Mohammad the Meathead.
And notice how the Quran is primarily speaking to men in general, not just to husbands. I guess Muslim women have to obey ALL Muslim men? Screw that!!
Posted by: champ at May 19, 2006 1:15 AM
Marrying a Muslim is like marrying into the mafia---once you're in, there' no way out, except with your feet forward and the head lying on your bosom---a typical victim of "honor killing."
Curse the barbaric umma.
Posted by: US_infidel at May 18, 2006 08:09 PM
Oh oh.... worse.. much much worse. Think about the kids and their kids, lost to the dark dispair of Islam! Get shivers thinking about it...
at May 19, 2006 2:16 AM
The vacuity and cowardice of all those pompous Women's Studies professors in all of this is staggering. They'll write histories of how Saxon men beat their wives a fifteen-hundred years ago, but can't raise their bowed heads to take an honest peek at Islam.
MO HIJABS MO EYE-SLIT SUBFEMINIST INTELLECTUAL SLOBS MO PROFESSOR FOBS
Maybe handing out worthless degrees for a living makes one more timid.
That's it. I've had it. I'm gonna start a dating service that hooks up lovelorn women's studies professors with virile Moslem men hungry to breed dusky mujahidin toddlers.
This new business will work cuz I can tap into DOE and HHS subsidies to pay all those $100 per mo membership fees I'm gonna collect. Especially with the Democrats set to take over.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at May 19, 2006 2:19 AM
Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Koran.
--- Tabari IX:113
Allah said, “It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.” because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.
--- Tabari I:280
MO HIJABS MO KELTIC ROSIE GUT-FLABS MO HARVARD YALE CONFABS MO MO MO
Treat women well for they are like domestic animals? With logic like that I'll own the D.C. marketplace. Do great in Boston and Manhattan, too. But I'll retire on my take from S.F. and Seattle. Not to mention Portland.
Dude, my new dating service is gonna rock. Once I get the cash flow up and going I’m gonna hire Jill Ireland and Rosie O’Donnell as my official spokespersons.
at May 19, 2006 2:33 AM
This has to be my favourite muslim comment about women:
Another eminent Muslim thinker, Hadi Sabzevari, in his commentary on Sadr al-Mote'alihin wrote:
That Sadr ad-Deen Shirazi classifies women as animals is a delicate allusion to the fact that women, due to the deficiency in their intelligence and understanding of intricacies, and due to their fondness of the adornments of the world, are truly and justly among the mute animals [al-haywanti al-sa^mita].
They have the nature of beasts [ad-dawwa^b], but they have been given the disguise of human beings so that men would not be loath to talk to them and be compelled to have sexual intercourse with them. That is why our immaculate Law [shar'ina al-mutahhar] takes men's side and gives them superiority in most matters, including divorce, "nushuz," etc. (Quoted in Soroush, Abdolkarim, _Farbehtar az ideoloji_, Sera^t, Tehran, 1373 A.H.S.).
http://debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html
Posted by: Silvester at May 19, 2006 3:41 AM
Assalamau Laikum Champ,
You say "Are you going to be the mother-in-law from hell?!?
You have such a negative view of "westerners", and you're already telling her that she "will become a Muslim", that I'm afraid this poor girl is doomed to a life of misery with you for a mother-in-law".
It certainly is a shame to see that you have changed your feelings of friendship towards me so quickly. I thought you were my one true friend on this forum Dru.
I haven't been able to post as much as I wanted to, I have left the running of the business to hired help & my daughter for the moment as I want to spend as much time as I can with my sick hubby.
Ofcourse he spends much time reading the Koran these days and I help him to pray (and we pray together at home as it is now difficult for him to get to the masjid).
We tend to get visitors everyday....so it's kinda difficult to post as well, as I would have liked to on this most important thread.
A few points:
1) I am sad to see peoples like freewoman who has such a sterotypical view for Islamic women...i.e that they are all oppressed and beaten.
While some undoubtably are...MOST are not. In 25 years of marriage my husband has NEVER raised a hand to me ...violence never achieves desired results....I just think you all need to be careful to base your thinking based on a few horror stories....please read some of the success stories too...get a balanced view...this is too important a subject for peoples to have a stereotypical subject.
2) No Woman should EVER be subjected to any violence. My view is simple...if he gets violent , kick the bastard where it hurts & then get out of there.
3) Me a mother in law from hell? I am very sad to hear that from you Dru? Am I that bad?
Surely it is better for my daughter in law to be to KNOW that she should covert BEFORE marriage. That way SHE can decide if she wants to make the commitment. If she is not ready....it is better for ALL that she moves on.
But I really like her...we get on well...SHE at least knows that women in Islam are well treated. If I had the power I would let "freewoman" swop places with her for a month....perhaps she would get a better view.
Anyway must go now, time for prayer....
Dru, best of luck to being a granny...I will put a reminder to Allah for you in my prayers.
Allah Hafiz
at May 19, 2006 5:11 AM
Arabic is such an ugly language. No wonder it caused the invention of Islam. No wonder non-Arab Moslems, Pakis for example, take Arabic names.
You got to have ugliness all about you to maintain fealty to the Islamic cause. Otherwise you'd be overcome with self-revulsion and guilt.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at May 19, 2006 5:22 AM
Naseem, Naseem, if anybody needs to trade places it would be you. I could take you shopping (you wouldn't have to wear the tent), you could actually swim (bathing suit, no tent), horseback riding (have you ever ridden a horse Naseem?) heck, I'd even teach you to drive. Oh, the shopping, restaurants, ball games, fresh air....so much to do in a free world.
If you EVER got a taste of freedom Naseem, YOU'D never want to go back to the life of.....of.....hidden solitude.
So needless to say Naseem, if I went there for thirty days , I'd be stuck in the house, forced to wear a tent..so no thanks. I'll stay here.
Posted by: freewoman at May 19, 2006 9:01 AM
Freewoman, I'm glad you answered. You have it so wrong about us womens.
I wear a kameez, salwar, I go shopping, I drive,
I do what I want, I travel, I choose not to go horse riding...but I have few restrictions on me.
You are just biased I'm afraid...and you need to change that. Around where I live in Lahore...there are in fact few womens who wear a tent...you need to fact find.
Best of luck in your quest for the truth...but you won't find it sitting there.
Posted by: Naseem at May 19, 2006 9:12 AM
Restrictions - Like being shot for going jogging?
Posted by: Borg at May 19, 2006 10:20 AM
Naseem writes:
"MOST are not. In 25 years of marriage my husband has NEVER raised a hand to me."
This, Naseem, misses the point. Even if NO muslim women had ever been abused, the undeniable fact is that the the mohammedan scriptures CONDONE such behavior. That your husband has never raised a hand to you is either because you have never given him reason to, or that he chooses not to despite scriptural sanction to beat you.
Posted by: Xerxes at May 19, 2006 10:22 AM
As a young, naive 18 year old, I dated an Iranian doctor for about 5 months. My father warned me to watch his behavior, that very soon the cultural differences (an inherent lack of respect for women) would become apparent.
One night we were walking through an underground tunnel about to reach a sharp turn. He told me to walk ahead just in case "there is a mugger. you are less important than me because I am a doctor."
I turned back and caught a bus home. Nothing needed to be said.
Posted by: questionislam at May 19, 2006 10:41 AM
My, my , questionislam, mighty muslim men. So brave!! Not! The look on the Dr.'s face would have been priceless!
Posted by: freewoman at May 19, 2006 10:51 AM
Freewoman, About 25 years later I ran into the Iranian at alocal hospital. His wife, a lovely, kind American was a patient. They had 2 children together.
And the Iranian remembered me and asked me on a date. What a repulsive individual.
By the way, he is now on wife#3. all have been american women.
Posted by: questionislam at May 19, 2006 10:57 AM
Questionislam, I just can't imagine a self respecting (especially American) woman putting up with her husband having other wives.
You are lucky to have got away from him.
Posted by: freewoman at May 19, 2006 11:19 AM
"...violence never achieves desired results...."
Naseem: Please spread the word among your correligionists.
Posted by: Chatillon at May 19, 2006 11:21 AM
A religion like any other?
NO
This link, from another thread briefly explains sharia law for those who have never seen it before.
http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/21475
Anyone wonder why the Taliban is the way it is, read the link.
Not all muslim countries practice all these rules but they want to.
THIS IS WHAT MUSLIMS WANT TO BRING TO THE WEST
Posted by: Borg at May 19, 2006 11:27 AM
Freewoman, I did not express my self correctly...he divorced the first 2 wives and married #3. Not a polygamist. I'll give him that much.
Posted by: questionislam at May 19, 2006 11:40 AM
Oops! Sorry question. I guess I misunderstood.
Posted by: freewoman at May 19, 2006 11:57 AM
Freewoman says "Oops! Sorry question. I guess I misunderstood."
Come on freewoman...closer to the truth is that YOU JUST ASSUMED...you didn't think to question...you are on "autopilot" when it comes to Islam...and that my dear is my point. You simply don't know enough about Islam...some of the peoples are really lovely.
You have to change...assumptions are bad for your health,
at May 19, 2006 12:24 PM
Naseem!
Look -- I'm sorry for being so frank with you, as I do consider you a friend, but I wanted to get your attention before you let your obvious dislike of Westerners affect your relationship with your future daugther-in-law -- who IS a Westerner.
You can be upset with what I said to you all you want, but right now I'm only thinking of your son and his fiancee'.
In my circle of friends with tell each other the 'truth' -- even if it stings a little. And it's none of my business what kind of mother-in-law you turn out to be, but please think about what I observe. I'm afraid you're going to cause unintentional emotional injury to your future daughter-in-law because of your apparent negative attitudes towards Westerners.
You always say some really nasty things about Westerners, and in yesterday's post you threw out some terrible sterotypes. I personally took offense to your comments, but that doesn't matter. What's more important than my feelings about those comments is how your son's fiancee' might feel about your statements. You know, not all Westerner's are "sex-crazed-sluts", Naseem.
Let me ask you this -- does your daughter-to-be know how you really feel towards Westerner's? And are you as candid with her as you are with us here at JW?
If you haven't been completely honest with her yet, then you will be; and it will come out at a time when you least expect it -- like during a heated disagreement over some stupid, petty issue.
Take care!
Your friend,
Dru Champion
at May 19, 2006 12:43 PM
Naseem, I'm glad to hear your husband has never beaten you. Now please tell us all that these verses from your Koran are mistranslated, misinterpreted, or just plain wrong and that the command to beat wives to bring them back into submission is not really in the Koran. Surely the God who said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" would not say that women are inferior to men? Tell us that no woman you know has ever been beaten, that women are equal to men, that they can drive cars by themselves, that you are not seperated from the men in the mosques, schools, theaters, stores, and that women can go out in the streets unescorted without chaperones or guards, that women are free to move about and come and go as they please, to talk to whomever they like, and that they are not treated like cattle or property. Tell us that women are free to dress as they choose. Tell us that a woman 's testimony in court under Sharia is equal to a man's. Please tell us that if a woman is raped by a Muslim male she is not killed to save her family's honor in many Muslim societies. Please Naseem. Tell us that Mohammed was not a pedophile who consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was nine years old, as she claimed. It will make us all feel a lot better.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at May 19, 2006 12:49 PM
Naseem, islam is bad for your health.
And what number wife are you Naseem??? Here in America, it's called bigamy when you have more than one wife at a time. In islam it's called normal. And sanctioned by the your religion. Why do you want to stay in a religion that respects only one half of the people in it, and that half is not yours?
And you never did answer my posts , my dear.
Posted by: freewoman at May 19, 2006 12:49 PM
Naseem!
Stereotyping works both ways -- not only for Muslim men and women -- but for Westerner's too. Not all Muslim women are treated poorly by Muslim men, and not all Westerner's are _______ (fill in the blank from the list below).
1) sex-crazed-maniacs
2) beaten by their husbands / or vise-versa
3) money-grubbing hoarders
4) enemies of God headed for hell
5) drug addicts
6) prostitutes
7) etc.
Help me out, Naseem. What am I forgetting? You know what "they say" about Westerner's better than anyone; so what else needs to be added to the list?
Seems to me that both 'sides' need to take a long, hard look in the mirror, because we're both guilty of stereotyping each other!
Peace to you and your family, and I hope your husband is feeling better!
Dru
Posted by: champ
at May 19, 2006 1:17 PM
With respect to the grave mistake of a non-Muslim woman marrying a Muslim note that Islamic terrorists will encourage a Muslim man to marry an infidel Western woman as a long-term tactical support for future terrorist operations:
“Cole said that the al Qaeda leaders gave Abu Ali two options: He could either become part of a martyr operation or he could establish a cell in the United States and he would "marry a Christian woman, assimilate into the community and he would be provided operatives."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/01/terror/main677450.shtml
Besides this there are the testimonies like
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Jutta50426.htm
and http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Jutta50426.htm
and many others at this Ex-Muslim site.
at May 19, 2006 2:16 PM
"you can look like a cow and still lure someone into marriage"
Hilarious!!
Posted by: champ at May 19, 2006 3:24 PM
Naseem is obviously not telling the whole story. What Naseem means to say is that her husband is a lame excuse for a man, just as most Muslim men are. Naseem wishes you could see how lame Muslim men really are, for if you western women could see that Muslim men are just cowards and babies, you could see that it's very easy for Muslim women to hold the power. If you non-muslim women could just look past the childish nature of Muslim men (the wife beating, the animal sex, the restrictions upon women from society, etc.), then you could truly see that Islam offers women a true matriarchy. So, you see, Islam is really matriarchy on the inside cloaked with a childish immature patriarchy on the outside. This is why Muslim men are the most cowardly males on the planet. When you have a religion like Islam that manufacturers cowardly immature weak men, then you can see how most women in Islam learn to look past the silly oppressive laws and just take control of the male sissies. You just have to be able to see all those "oppressive rules for women" for what they really are --- a cloak to hide the real nature of muslim men --- cowards, sissies, immature crybabies, etc.
If anyone wants some interesting reading, read about the pyschological analysis of the typical Muslim male psyche, it's a real eye-opener!
Posted by: porkchops38 at May 20, 2006 12:11 PM
I'm still trying to learn about the typical American male psyche!
Posted by: champ at May 20, 2006 1:00 PM
Naseem:
Has it ever occurred to you that if you pass the age of 35, you will probably be denied access to heaven in Islam?
Think about it. Who's up there according to the Islamic sources? Men. And houris. And nubile young virgins. Islam does not feature reincarnation. SO-----
Better jump off a cliff NOW while you still have a shot at Islamic heaven!
Posted by: pythagoras at May 20, 2006 2:40 PM
Excellent reminder Pythagoras! LOL You are correct for the Muslim scriptures record that when Muhammed saw the hellfire, Muhammed said the overwhelming majority of hell's inhabitants are women! The verse that explains this uses the arabic word "ahkbar", it is the same word as in "Allah ahkbar" which means literally "Allah is the by far the greatest god" although it is frequently translated the more simple form "God is Great". Most all Islamic scholars in the Muslim world admit this verse about the hellfire being "ahkbar" women, meaning about 95% to 99% of hell will be women. I guess that's why Islam tells the men to beat the hell out of their women, literally! When Muslims want to sell Islam to the west, they conviently claim that "ahkbar" does not mean a great difference in size or stature, they translate "ahkbar" means simply a majority for the verse about the hellfire. Thus, they tell westerners that Islam's hell will be only 51% women. That's how deceptive muslims are! In other words, when shouting "allah ahkbar", then "ahkbar" means "great difference in size or stature", but when telling westerners about how muhammed saw the hellfire contained "ahkbar" women, there they then claim the arabic word "ahkbar" does not mean "great difference in size or stature" but rather they lie saying it means only "a simple majority", such as 51%, LOL. If anyone is so easily deceived by the muslim's lying and deception, then I can't say I have any sympathy for such ignorami. Even the Bible says, "Let him who is ignorant, remain ignorant". (1 Cor. 14:38)
Posted by: porkchops38 at May 20, 2006 6:21 PM
Since when is the topic of hell a joking matter? I am personally grieved at the thought of someone going to hell.
The Bible states that we "all" deserve hell, and according to Jesus Christ, that's where departed souls end up who have not received His free gift of salvation; and who live a righteous life.
"Not all who say Lord, Lord will enter into the kindom of heave, but those who do the will of the Father"
Read the Words in Red!
Posted by: champ at May 20, 2006 6:58 PM
Champ, perhaps if you would heed the words of the Bible such as "Let him who is ignorant, remain ignorant", then you might not be so grieved at the thought of someone going to hell, especially since the Bible says in about a zillion different verses that you as a mere mortal can't save anyone from hell --- only God can.
Secondly, we were talking about the topic of the Islamic hell not Biblical hell, and the Islamic hell of 99% women is a joke -- jokes should make you laugh unless you are anal retentive. I wish the Bible says something like "Let him who is anal retentive, remain anal retentive", but I guess 1 Cor. 14:38 will have to suffice in your case.
Posted by: porkchops38 at May 20, 2006 7:58 PM
"Let him who is ignorant, remain ignorant"
God placed that scripture in your mind for a reason - He's speaking to you.
Posted by: champ at May 20, 2006 9:24 PM
I find it interesting that neither Naseem or Defenderofislam has answered the posts quoting the Quranic verses compelling wife beating. Wonder if I should bring up the 2 "honor killings" per day of women in Pakistan?
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at May 21, 2006 12:45 AM
Ok...I read the story and a great deal of the responses...at first I was in total agreement that Islam is very restrictive. However, I am a western woman who has been living in Egypt for 2 years now studying. I have seen the good side and bad side of Muslim men. There are cases where you have western women marry muslim men and in the examples I know live happily for 30 years in marriage and bring up children in a openly religious environment. I have also seen western women who had studied with open minded muslim men in the west only to find that upon return there is a complete change. However, generalizing solves nothing. Islam is just as restricting as christianity the only difference is that the Quran is much vaguer than the Bible and has allowed alot of its meanings to been construed. The most contraversial verses you will find on the treatment of women ar
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