Is the judge nuts or what?

I see this as sedition.Plotting to overthrow their host country - in fact some are Oz citizens!

I hope Mr Ruddock will see it in the same way.He has been pretty good so far. When he was immigration minister he did a great job of keeping out "undesirables" who stopped first in Indonesia - an islamic country - and then tried to get to OZ illegally.Many ended up in detention centres and of course the left thought he was horrible!

Somehow they (the left) never connected the fact that since they were muslims they would have felt more comfortable in Indonesia.

It was generally a successful strategy. We have not had many more attempts at illegal entry.

I also hope that people will begin to see the real islam. As the saying goes,,"give them enough rope,,,"

Posted by: Gramfan at May 21, 2006 8:57 AM

Slightly OT, but what happened to the German attempt to have Mein Jihad aka the Koran banned on the grounds that it was inciting violence? Was the request turned down by the prosecution, or is it still pending? Surely this is an interesting idea, not that any country would actually dare banning it, but to raise public awareness about the alleged religion of peace.

Posted by: anti-uffe at May 21, 2006 10:08 AM

once a few countries ban it..... it will steam roll...

Posted by: meredith at May 21, 2006 11:20 AM

oh for petes sake!..the they just dont get it alert!......FIND OUT WHAT IRAN REALLY WANTS..JUST TALK TO THEM...gen wesley clark on fox news a few mins ago.......er gen.... mahmoud has already told us what he wants...CHAOS ON EARTH...clean your ears out and listen!

Posted by: storagemanager at May 21, 2006 11:39 AM

Many western people are simply unaware about the true teachings of Islamic supremacist Sharia.

They have no clue what Sharia is about because of misinformation about Islam.

Perhaps if more people in the west were educated about the real nature of Sharia, then there would be more outrage.

Sharia provides the basis for Muslims to view themselves as a superior group of people.

Sharia provides the basis for Muslims to discriminate against non-Muslims. This is a subject that is not covered very well in the western media because there could be some conflict if the subject is discussed.

Offending Muslim sensibilities is taboo.

Question:
What is the inspiration behind these supremacist teachings of Sharia?

Answer: Islamic religious texts

The Victory
[48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

Quran 47:
SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them.

Posted by: Johnathan at May 21, 2006 11:51 AM

sorry to repeat myself....but this is why..I FEAR FOR AMERICA....oh for petes sake!..the they just dont get it alert!......FIND OUT WHAT IRAN REALLY WANTS..JUST TALK TO THEM...gen wesley clark on fox news a few mins ago.......er gen.... mahmoud has already told us what he wants...CHAOS ON EARTH...clean your ears out and listen! To fight a war you must admit that you are at WAR.Half of Americas people think like west clark....We must get our Voice heard...or learn arabic!

Posted by: storagemanager at May 21, 2006 11:57 AM

To Anti-uffe:

Your question is quite excellent.

The german constitution is (not surprisingly, considering history) very, very close, in content and format, to our own. In order to ban the Koran in Germany would require the sames steps in amending the german constitution as would be the case in the US Constitution, namely altering at least one amendment. So I am sure you can see where I am going here...

There is a catch here, both positive and negative all at once:

There is a very unique paragraph in the german civil code (german: Buergerliches Gesetzbuch, or BGB for short), paragraph 130 (against what the germans call "Volksverhetzung"): Any actions or form of speech (including music) that deliberately target one specific race, religion, creed or nationality in order to spread hate against it, in order to incite violence against it, to defame it, etc, is illegal and punishable by law.

Most logically, this law first came onto the books as a result of the holocaust, and the law is quoted the most in cases against neo-nazis (like the NPD in Sachsen) but the applications of paragraph 130 are far reaching.

There are some who say that by it's very nature, the quoting of certain passages out of the Koran breaks paragraph 130 of the law. On the other side, others say that exactly this law is there to protect muslims just as well as christians and jews, that those who use this law as justification for banning the Koran are themselves breaking the very same law. This is becoming a hot topic in Germany.

Chicken? Egg?

Sound like a catch 22? It is, just as the 1st Amendment to our constitution, which of course is a great amendment, can also be abused.

For awhile there was the mistaken notion here in Germany that §130 only applies to german citizens and not to it's guests or asylum seekers, but a number of court decisions have already put this old dog down to sleep. There have been a number of anti-Israel, anti-jewish impromptu demos that were immediately stopped and the the demo organizers were prosecuted according to §130.

Moreover, still on the positive side, §130 DOES allow the german authorities to do things like, upon suspicion of activities in violation of §130, to send spies into moschees in order to record the sermons being preached there, etc... and with a good success rate, the german authorities have already started deporting muslim clerics who have provably preached hated and advocated violence, most notably the infamous "Caliph of Cologne", who was sent out of the country a number of months ago.

The debate is hotter than we americans can imagine, since the germans already have prohibitions on materials used during the 3. Reich. Things like "Mein Kampf" and all nazi paraphenalia can neither be purchased, sold nor displayed in Germany and must even be approved under the scrutiny of upper ups before being used as examples in the history classroom, etc... So, the germans already have restrictions in the area of free speech which we do not have in the USA, which would lead one to think that it would be easier to ban other things. On the contrary: it makes it much much harder! Because of Germany's dark NAZI past, any movement to ban other materials is bound to go extremely slowly, if at all, for fear of being labeled NAZI once again. Once again, the ghost of 1933-1945 is ruining things in today's world.

Whether or not the Koran would ever be banned here is a moot point, for my way of thinking. The law here in Germany is crystal clear when it comes to hate crimes. Reading the book is not necessarily a crime. Interpreting the book to mean that one should kill unbelievers and then taking action based upon the interpretation (including hate speech) IS a crime.

There are a great number of juristic cases being tried right now, where the accused claim the authority of the Sh'aria as their defense-basis instead of the german constitution. Not one of these cases is getting through. Occasionally, a decision will come through in favor of a muslim (the honor-murder of a turkish sister in Berlin a couple of months ago), but not because of bowing to sh'aria, but rather, a loophole in the good old german secular law or a glitch in the trial process-- in other words, the same old crap that can happen in an american process.

I am keeping my eyes very open on this subject, and should more info come out, I will post it as soon as possible.

Posted by: bonncaruso at May 21, 2006 12:22 PM

What would be useful is a short gloss of the Koran's most outrageous, intolerant, anti-other religions, murderous and hate-filled suras -published in pamphlet form- and left, like tourist info freebies / Jehovah's Witness tracts, in public places (train stations, airports, hotel lobbies, zoo and amusment part kiosks, etc., etc.) to slowly give the [currently dozing] captive-audience-with-time-to-kill a quick, shocking clue about the press/politician-obscured contents of this warlord's playbook for global terrorization and theocratic domination.

A simple, stapled-together, folded two page (eight-sides) little item could cover enough of the worst al-Qur'an verses to shift the debate from the wistful fallacies of the [unexamnined] idea of the 'Religion of Peace' into something a little more cogent, frightening and informative.

But make the outside cover very inviting and cozy and cheerful, to lure them beyond what will repel them within.

Just the facts. In the Islamic Imperialists' own words.

The Hadiths, next.

(Although they might be considered semi-pornographic if some of the crazier stuff were included about how to fondle your barely-pubescent child-brides while they are menstruating, etc...)

Exposure of the core of ther Koran is essential.

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 21, 2006 12:50 PM

To "Profitsbeard":

Your suggestion is a great idea!

Based on the principle of "by their deeds, you shall know them". Let's convince Robert to post a standing glossary of the texts that most obviously should not be hidden....

Good idea!

Posted by: bonncaruso at May 21, 2006 12:56 PM

The Muslim student in Kentucky should be grateful that America traditionally held Christian principles, and allows her to worship her false god in America freely, unlike the total intolerance shown to Christians in Islamic nations. A recent convert to Christianity in Afghanistan was nearly executed for believing in the name of Jesus! The demons of Hell are making rapid advances worldwide in an attempt to blacklist and isolate Christians and God's Holy Word. The ACLU has never come to the assistance of anybody that expressed Biblical precepts, but they are always as swift as a streaking comet to attack America’s at her Christian roots.
http://focusonjerusalem.com/newsroom.html

Posted by: storagemanager at May 21, 2006 1:56 PM

some here have asked me to leave the bible out of the fight.....it is my right to be a CHRISTIAN.our rights are the very thing islam wants to take a way...fight for your rights..if you are jew..christian..or anything but muslim..FIGHT for your rights!

Posted by: storagemanager at May 21, 2006 2:27 PM

Although most of the people in the world are still unaware of it, our world is racing headlong towards a fateful date with destiny, an epic struggle that the Bible indicates will reach its climax at the place called Armageddon. As the world nears that epic date of infamy, the people and nations of this world will have a decision to make. The primary reason that the Lord God Jehovah provided so much prophetic detail in the Holy Bible is so the world could analyze history and be informed about what the Lord says will come about in the Latter Days so they could make the wise choice and choose to be on the Lord’s side when it comes time for the armies of the nations to march down into the Valley of Decision.
http://focusonjerusalem.com/articles.html

Posted by: storagemanager at May 21, 2006 2:43 PM

bonncaruso-

OT

I have some old Caruso 78 rpm's re-taped onto cassettes and love to put them on during a storm. There's something about his timbre that fits in with the tension in the atmosphere. (And the thunder gives a little more graphic eq. to the hiss on the transfer.)

Mr. Spencer could cull the craziest Koranic calumnies and post them in a sidebar as you suggest. Meanwhile, here's a good link for your own culling:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html

(Put in a word like "kill" or "slay" or even "poet" ...and have an airsickness bag ready.)

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 21, 2006 4:21 PM

There was a recent documentary showing how these jihadist types of books are also available in the UK.

Though wisely the UK government has recently taken steps to override human rights aspects of the law - which go against common sense and public safety.

That an Australian court could rule that books which call for the downfall of its political system, as well as promote terrorist attacks on the Australians - could be lawful - is a problem Britain and other western governments are facing with the threat of a rising and more violent Islam.

It’s a human rights versus public security debate.

Posted by: Pass It On at May 21, 2006 4:27 PM

Forget the books, here in Canada Dr.Mohammad Elmasry now uses his CIC website to incite hatred against Jews and Christians, and ever since the PC Politicians let him get away with calling for the muder of all Israelis over 18, Elmasry has perceived that as a silent consent to attack non-Muslims as the enemies of Islam and Allah.

The Hipocrisy for Elmasry is that his very own website has a burried statement asserting that
Hitler,Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot,and all the rest of the mass murderers are Muslims.
During his list of the foundations for islam and the sacred words of Allah , he declares that everyone is born a Muslim.

So if that statement is taken to the logical end
then it creates a circular logic that Elmasry can't deny , if everyone is a Muslims then all dictators have been created by Allah.

Posted by: ala-sux at May 21, 2006 4:55 PM

Pass it on,

Did you see Charles Moore on that? He thinks the the ECHR may blow up in Blair's face, just as the ERM did in Major's. There are similar forces at work - the less-than-benign face of transnational thinking and transnational organizations:

"Similarly, if we were to repeal the Human Rights Act and withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights, we would suffer no ill consequences beyond the pursed lips of our continental partners and some P45s at Matrix Chambers. We are entitled to do it, and we are able to do it, so we should do it."

Posted by: Yojimbo at May 21, 2006 5:02 PM

"Profitsbeard":

somewhat OT, but not really...

Caruso is indeed a good choice. Is definitely a hero of mine. Yes, the sound of war is not to be denied. I give it less than one year, perhaps 8 months. If Ohlmert's predictions that Iran will be able to make the bomb within a "couple" of months, as is floating around the Israeli media, then perhaps less than three months. A nuclear strike is not dependent on weather or season. Could make the hot desert summer a lot hotter...

Those books that are showing up in bookstores in Australia and in the UK are expressely banned in Germany, btw. Many german friends of mine are livid with rage to know that this crap is showing up on bookshelves on the european continent, especially after they have worked really hard to remove such ideology from their culture. Pretty hardcore to think that the brits may allow this, but I suspect that the most of those brits have absolutely no idea that this is happening. Did we americans know what kind of trash private islamic schools in NYC, within spitting distance of ground zero, have been teaching? Yep - hardcore stuff.

Seriously, the idea of a glossary is an excellent idea. Sorted out by idea and sub-idea, like:

infidel / christian
infidel / jew
infidel / zoorastrian

What do you think? :) :)

Posted by: bonncaruso at May 21, 2006 5:04 PM

Jonathan posted:

Many western people are simply unaware about the true teachings of Islamic supremacist Sharia. They have no clue what Sharia is about because of misinformation about Islam.

I know people in Britain who in their infantile liberalism, state, " I'm against all forms of fundamentalism, be it Christianity, Islam or Hinduism".

It is this idiotic liberal mindset, which BTW they are proud of, as they think of themselves as eminently civilised, that we have to fight against - 5 years after 9/11, Beslan, London 7/7, Madrid, Bali etc etc.

Posted by: DP111 at May 21, 2006 5:47 PM

Yojimbo

Read the article yesterday. I'm a little diubtful if Blair has the courage to rescind a legislation that he spent so much political effort in enacting.

Bersides of he did retract, it would be an admission that he was wrong, and I dont see Blair doing any such thing.

Most politicians have big egos, and Blair has a pretty big one.

Posted by: DP111 at May 21, 2006 5:51 PM

storagemanager

Why on earth anyone should ask you to leave the Bible out.

Western nations are Christian in their mores and attitudes - even the separation of church and state, the secular state, tolerance and respect of the dignity of man, Christian or not, is a Judeao-Christian concept. All our laws are guided by the spirit of the Bible.

I for one, welcome your thoughts.

bonncaruso posted:

Whether or not the Koran would ever be banned here is a moot point, for my way of thinking. The law here in Germany is crystal clear when it comes to hate crimes. Reading the book is not necessarily a crime. Interpreting the book to mean that one should kill unbelievers and then taking action based upon the interpretation (including hate speech) IS a crime.

Very interesting and makes sense at first reading. The trouble is that the time between interpretation to kill, to actual terrorist mass murder is unknowable, as it is the mind of the Jihadi.

Posted by: DP111 at May 21, 2006 6:02 PM

profitsbeard -

I almost had to have an airsickness bag ready when I read bits from the "Misconceptions about Islam" link at usc.edu. Was this supposed to be academic, or a propaganda tool for CAIR? I'm not American, so I don't know anything about that particular college. California, huh - one of those treehugging, new agey, cultural relativism sort of leftist universities, or what? If they start recruiting jihadists at US schools I think we all should start worrying, as if we didn't have to to begin with.

Posted by: anti-uffe at May 21, 2006 6:14 PM

I have to say this: the first person I heard calling Islam a "religion of peace" was George W. Bush! And that was right after 9/11!
Was he protecting his saudi friends?

Storagemanager: go for it! You have the right, as you say.

I know you are never going to knife any of us in the back or wear a suicide belt!!

Posted by: Gramfan at May 21, 2006 6:37 PM

I would urge ALL Australian infidels to write to your local minister about this.

I have - and I always leave off with a quote from the peace loving Koran; followed by a verse said by Christ of the Bible.

When two preachers can go to jail/be found guilty of inciting hatred for preaching to a Christian audience about the horrors of Islam (Daniel Scot & Co), and then have Islamic book stores OK to selling this rubbish - then we have lost the 'War on Terror'.

No wonder they can't get people to join the Army and die for this "War on Terror". Why would you, when our own government approves of what you are supposed to be fighting against.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 21, 2006 6:49 PM

bonncaruso-

O solo mio!

Easy to use info is crucial.

Sura 9:29-30, et al, need to be better known by the somnambulistic West.

*~@):~{>

anti-uffe-

What USC's p.c. disclaimer misses is:

-all you need do is go to the texts, themselves.

No chance of misunderstanding the strident calls for "holy" violence that lard the Koran, and Hadiths, no matter which of their translations you check.

Misunderstanders of Islam continue to follow these misunderstood verses daily, blowing up their misunderstood Sunni and Shi'ite neighbors in Iraq and throughout misunderstanding Muslim lands.

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 21, 2006 6:55 PM

Frankly, on free speech grounds, I agree with His-Ozzie-Honor on this one. Now, let's get those Pakistani immigrant Christians in New South Wales off the hook.

We need to insist on our right to call Islam a false religion, demand Muslims show the same solicitude for minorities in their countries that we give them in ours, and tell the ACLU that if it had an ounce of the moral courage it claims, it will stick up for our right to call for sewing a piece of pork sausage into OBL's mouth before stringing him up.

Posted by: Kepha at May 21, 2006 8:20 PM

RoP - There is no compulsion in religion.

A recent convert from Christianity to Islam, Bashir Masi knew nothing of his new faith.

He could not describe a single tenet of Islam, nor remember the Qalma, the Muslim declaration of faith, nor name his own children, who have adopted Muslim names.

Group Capt Cecil Chaudry
Group Capt Cecil Chaudry

He, his wife Amna and their six children, converted to Islam 15 days ago. "We are happy now we are Muslim," said Mr Masi, 45. "It is a great religion."

The Masis's conversion is typical of the vulnerability of Christians in Pakistan, many of whom live under the threat of persecution, death and who have suffered waves of violence directed against them and their churches.

In February about 400 people attacked and burnt a church in the southern city of Sukkur after accusations that a local Christian had burned pages from the Koran.

After a similar allegation last November a Muslim mob wielding axes and sticks set fire to three churches, a dozen houses, three schools, a dispensary, a convent and two parsonages.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/28/wpak28.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/28/ixworld.html

This is what happens when muslims dominate any place. It will happen here as well.

Posted by: DP111 at May 21, 2006 8:47 PM

bonncaruso wrote,

"There is a very unique paragraph in the german civil code, paragraph 130: Any actions or form of speech (including music) that deliberately target one specific race, religion, creed or nationality in order to spread hate against it, in order to incite violence against it, to defame it, etc, is illegal and punishable by law."

If by any chance it Can be done, then it Must be done. Start with the Al Kod Mosque find the pretext and shut it down. If just one country expelled just one Mosques/Fortress/Weapons Depot, the effect could lead to a collapse of Islam in the West. Islam is a House of Cards, we need only tug at a few and it will Collapse. The Pamphlet Idea is Pure Genius. I would volunteer to distribute them where I live. (NJ)

We can't let these Apostles of the Serpent get comfortable in the USA...
Not Here.
Not Now.
Not Ever.
CRUSADER18

Posted by: WIDEAWAKE at May 21, 2006 9:18 PM

This is what happens when muslims dominate any place. It will happen here as well.

This whole mess could be put a stop to if:

1) Islam's scriptures, tenets, and history were exposed to the American public, and

2) Islam was de-certified as a religion thereby.

But, you're right DP111, it will happen here as well. Not only because of PC (i.e., because of the strong gravitational forces of Fictive Reality), but also because of the 6th Pillar of Islam.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at May 21, 2006 9:23 PM

Pig Farmer,

By "6th. Pillar of Islam" do you mean the threat of Jihad? I mean Jihad...Dawat ut Islam followed by...Their usual "mad-cap" highjinx.

NOT HERE.
NOT NOW.
NOT EVER.
CRUSADER18

Posted by: WIDEAWAKE at May 21, 2006 9:29 PM

Any Aussies seen "Sportsworld" on Sunday morning?

A Leb-ballplayer by the name of El masri told the reporter that "Islam is a good religion" and that "Islam is all about peace..." and that the Cronulla riots were 'completely unjustified...'

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 21, 2006 9:31 PM

sheik yer'mami:

I only watch tennis and Aussie rules,lol!
But thanks for posting.

What else would you expect from people who are allowed to lie to infidels?

I seem to recall Anthony Mundine saying something awful after 9/11 and dhimmi Ray Martin trying to "bail" him out of the mess by putting nice words into his mouth. I was sorry he won the other night! (Not a fan of boxing either, but I guess islam is a good religion if you are punch-drunk and your brain doesn't work!)

I recall a guy called Cassius Clay and we all know what happened to him.It amazes me how "african americans" become muslims when more likely than not it was arabs who sold their ancestors as slaves in the first place!

Posted by: Gramfan at May 21, 2006 9:47 PM

These books could be banned shortly under the pending federal sedition legislation. Teh hate literature is clearly not protected speech.

As far as the Qur'an goes however, sorry I disagree. It should not and cannot be banned.

Let's not condemn El Masri (who is a hell of a league player, I might add). What would you expect him to say? Should we condemn him for not publicly condemning his own religion. Get real! I'm sorry Sheikh, but the Cronulla riots were completely unjustified. The people who took part in those riots were animals, as were the responses by groups of Muslims. I appreciate that there is a history but. A good frind of mine, who happened to be Muslim, and secular was threatened and beaten badly, despite the fact that he was Egyptian. Was that justified? Have you seen pictures of those drunk trash rioters? Who would have attacked children if they could.

By the way, the use of the word "Leb" is racist, and you know it. I'm sure you wouldnt have the balls to call an Arab a leb thats for sure.

Bloody Aussies. Its not just the Muslim Arabs they have a problem with, its the Christian ones as well. It is (partially) a "race thing" with the Aussies. Any other European culture I would say otherise.

Posted by: Haidon at May 21, 2006 9:54 PM

HAIDO,

"Aint no Aussie evr called me a Jesus Freak".

Posted by: WIDEAWAKE at May 21, 2006 9:59 PM

Gramfan

Another Aussie willing to accept the term leb, and automatically assume that El Masri is a bad apple. Unbelievable. The character of some of the posters on this site never cease to amaze me. Hiding behind a fake name attacking people they know nothing about. How courageous.

The topic presented is whether certain publications should be banned. Yes they should. Yet somehow it degrades into personal attacks.

Posted by: Haidon at May 21, 2006 10:06 PM

Fair enough Wideawake, but if you are an aboriginal (I'm sorry Sheikh "abo"), or just about any other ethnicity including Lebanese Christians, you get painted. Whereas in a country like New Zealand, we generally have respect for each other.

Although my only qualification is that we have a government that refuses to criticise Islamists lik eteh Muslim Association of Canterbury (www.mac.net.nz) read some of the links/materials under the Islam section). At least Australia is more cognisant of the threat of Islamism. I support the anti-terror legislation including the sedition and glorifying terrorism provisions.

What I do not support is rampant Australian racisms, that manifests itself in so many ways. Just look at those of aboriginal and asian descent. While not all Australians are racist, many are, just revisit Cronulla.

Cronulla was not about Islam. Muslims were involved but after the fact. The "Muslim" gangs were comprised of gangs who sold drugs, drank alcohol. These people were criminals, thugs not terrorists.

Posted by: Haidon at May 21, 2006 10:12 PM

Haidon,
(is that a fake name,,just wondering,,,,,?)

Aussies have nicknames for everyone,,eg wogs,nips etc etc. I wasn't born here and have been called some names and I have accepted it.

I don't think that necessarily makes them racists.It's an Aussie thing.

As far as said football player is concerned I am not interested whatever in what he thinks of his religion. Let him stick to his sporting ability.

Other athletes rarely sound off about their beliefs.

As for hiding behind "fake names" and "being courageous" I wonder what courage you attribute to a homicide bomber who hides a bomb belt under his/her clothes and kills and maims people in crowded places???

Posted by: Gramfan at May 21, 2006 10:25 PM

"There are some who say that by it's very nature, the quoting of certain passages out of the Koran breaks paragraph 130 of the law. On the other side, others say that exactly this law is there to protect muslims"

This sums up quintessentially the problem which not just Germany, but the entire modern West is having getting its shit together to criminalize that historically venerable criminal organization, Islam.

Posted by: Television at May 21, 2006 10:32 PM

"The "Muslim" gangs were comprised of gangs who sold drugs, drank alcohol. These people were criminals, thugs not terrorists."

Thuggery, petty crimes and rapes are also parts of the inchoate and amorphous nebula of violent Jihad: the Muslim riffraff ("youths" as the French call them) know this because it has been vaguely communicated to them: Infidels and their spoils in the Dar-al-Harb are fair game. The Jihad is an army of many different levels, many different roles -- from the women who simply stay indoors to breed new mujahideen, to the riffraff, to the clerics who spew their Arabic venom straight, to the clerics who clean it up in English for Infidel ears, to the Muslim Academics who bowdlerize the Qur'an and polish the gilt of the "Golden Age" of Islam, to ordinary Muslims who take the time to try to present the "peaceful" nature of Islam to Infidels, to ordinary Muslims who by their mere presence as "the nice Muslim guy I know from the tobacco store who wouldn't hurt a fly", to Muslims who work behind the scenes oiling the pockets of gullible Western businessmen and politicians -- a vast army with many different levels, many different roles: each with an eye to the Last Day or Paradise -- whichever comes first.

Posted by: Television at May 21, 2006 10:40 PM

Kia ora Gramfan

My name is Thomas Haidon. I don't hide behind an alias. I'm not suggesting that you do either by the way, alot of people use nicknames and that's fine.

You said:

Aussies have nicknames for everyone,,eg wogs,nips etc etc. I wasn't born here and have been called some names and I have accepted it.

Thank you for proving my point about many Australians.

You ask:

"I wonder what courage you attribute to a homicide bomber who hides a bomb belt under his/her clothes and kills and maims people in crowded places???"

I don't. I have said here as a poster time and time again, that these Muslims who kill are scum and need to be eradictaed. That is why I support strong anti-terror laws, which is what John Howard has pushed through.

Television you are assuming that there is something different with these so caled Muslim gangs,than there are with any other gang. They are not fighting a jihad, chances are they know very little about Islam. I had the discpleasure meeting several of these so called gang members when I was over there at a shisha place. What a bunch of morons. I tried to discuss Islam with them, bt these guys wouldnt know the difference between jihad and itjihad. I really don't believe its a MUSLIM problem, its a criminal problem.

They key difference is that these gangs are not articulating reasons for their attacks based in Qur'an and Sunnah. (However Muslim groups post Cronulla were to justify attacks on non-Muslims)

Again however the Muslim reaction post Cronulla was problematic. That is where we have the proble... Not with these shitty little gangs (where half of these jokers try and emulate African-American based gangs, not the muhajideen).

Television, you wrote:

"ordinary Muslims who take the time to try to present the "peaceful" nature of Islam to Infidels, to ordinary Muslims who by their mere presence as "the nice Muslim guy I know from the tobacco store who wouldn't hurt a fly", to Muslims who work behind the scenes oiling the pockets of gullible Western businessmen and politicians -- a vast army with many different levels, many different roles: each with an eye to the Last Day or Paradise -- whichever comes first".

Well you have covered up all the bases. That's just about every Muslim on the planet. I'm not quite sure how to comment. Its a laughable and inplausible statement. For you to paint all Muslims, including the man "from the tobacco store" is an absolute joke. Learn to distinguish. Let me guess, its too hard.

Posted by: Haidon at May 21, 2006 11:00 PM

"The people who took part in those riots were animals, as were the responses by groups of Muslims"

Riots?!?! What riots Haidon???? Compared to the Islamic riots over a few stupid (and funny) cartoons of the profit Mo - the Cronulla "riots" were NOT riots.

Where were the burnings? The killings? The rapes by these "evil" white thugs?? Maybe they should take a few lessons off the Muslims on how to riot!

Not religious but racist??? Get real! If they were purely race based then answer the following Haidon:

1) In the aftermath WHY were the following Christian churches targeted:
a) A Catholic church full of people from every race - it was shot at by a bunch of peace lovers.

b) A Pacific Island Christian church was burnt to the ground by a bunch of Peace Lovers (Muslims)

c) An Anglican church (again full of people whose ancestory is from all over the world) was vandelised.

It seems the evil white men - compared to the Muslims have no idea of how to "riot" - DO THEY???

I went to uni with a Lebanese girl - she didn't get ONE OUNCE of racism thrown at her (in fact I had the hots for her also!). She was Christian Lebanese.

John Simmons owns one of the most sucessful Mortgage Originator firms in the country - he is Lebanese.

Steve Bracks (yes he is a dickhead) - the Premier of Victoria - is Lebanese (Christian upbringing). If we Aussies are so dam racist - then how did HE GET ELECTED????

Then we have all the multi-ethic people who hold office all around the country. How did they get elected in such a "racist" country Haidon???

You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about.

Yes in Australia there are some racist idiots. BUt compared to many countries, Australia is one of the most tolerant country on earth.

"These people were criminals, thugs not terrorists."

No they were neither, they were Muslims - comming out of the Lakemba Mosque and spreading there Islamic tolerance to infidels.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 21, 2006 11:01 PM

I have the following problem:

I been asked to help a Korean student write a uni essay on why Australia is racist and Islamophobic.

Obviously if she disputes this “fact” she will be failed by the do gooder left wing uni.

She also knows Islam is evil.

What should I do – help her tell the truth and fail? (she is paying big bucks to be “educated”)

Or write according to what the uni wants???

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 21, 2006 11:09 PM

Haidon -

The rioters at Cronulla made the same mistake the media does all the time -

That is they equate Islam with race. To be Muslim is to be Arab - is how many see it.

Maybe if our leaders started to tell the truth about Islam (that it is a death cult of evil intolerance founded by a child molester) then idiot and ignorant Aussie's wouldn't be targeting "Middle Eastern" People.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 21, 2006 11:23 PM

3rdtimelucky

She could mention the 18 or so muslim jihadis who were nabbed in Sydney and Melbourne a while back, that might be a good start to explain the outbreak of unjustified "Islamophobia". Perhaps if she made the essay sarcastic, as if the word "islamophobic" wasn't the most ludicrous word ever coined.

Personally, I'd report the uni to the authorities, or perhaps to a talkback station.

It's hard to believe the left can sink any lower than this.

Posted by: Mr Krabs at May 21, 2006 11:29 PM

Kia ora 3rd time

I have already stated the post Cronulla response was reprehensible, and disproportionate. even more troubling was that the response emanated from teh mouths of Islamic leaders themselves. You will find no argument with me in that regard.

For the moment, I'm not talking about the Mohammed cartoon riots, which were also reprehensible. The Cronulla riots were despicable. Have you seen the pictures of a dozen dunk aussies attacking a cowering man with beer bottles? The man's only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Unfortunately 3rd time, I do know what I am talking about. Just because you mention a couple of Arab's who have been elected does not mean there is no anti-Arab racism, means nothing. Any Arab racism dfoes not stem origionally from Muslims, but the torrents of Lebanese Crhistians arriving in the 70's and 80's and bringing their gang wars.

You wote:

These people were criminals, thugs not terrorists."

No they were neither, they were Muslims - comming out of the Lakemba Mosque and spreading there Islamic tolerance to infidels.

Teh post-Cronulla Muslim response, yes I would agree, but before Cronulla you are wrong dead wrong.

The Aussies, one of the most tolerant country on earth? Just ask an aborigine whether he/she thinks so.

So let me ask you 3rd time, do you think it would have been acceptable for the Cronulla rioters to discern between Muslim and non-Muslim Arabs and just attack, and kill innocent Muslims. WOuld that have been acceptable to you?

Posted by: Haidon at May 21, 2006 11:35 PM

Haidon - perhaps you would care to enlighten we poor dumb Aussies on how to tell the difference between Muslims who support jihad (and the rest of their Fascist nonsense) from Muslims who do not. Is there some distinguishing feature we could look for? A star on the forehead perhaps? Or do we simply believe their words (ever heard of 'taqiyya'?)

Australians distrust and dislike Muslims for many excellent reasons - the best being the evidence of our own eyes. Since Muslims (especially from Lebanon) began coming here in the 1980s, we have watched their behaviour - the murders, driveby shootings, drug-dealing, intimidation of ordinary citizens and their increasing refusal to abide by the laws and customs of the country. Muslims are overrepresented in prisons and the welfare system. They have contributed nothing to Australia except the importation of revolting customs like female genital mutilation, women covered from head to toe and hate literature.

No other migrant group has ever behaved this way - I guess its just a coincidence that Muslim immigrants behave the same way the world over, trashing the countries that have been foolish enough to offer them a new life. There have been twenty two driveby shootings in Sydney this year - all carried out by Muslim thugs.

Stopping Muslim immigration would be a very good start on the problems in Australian cities. Then we could concentrate on getting rid of the would be jihadis and other Islamic barbrians the govt. was stupid enough to allow into this country.

Posted by: Deecha at May 21, 2006 11:39 PM

3rd time... I'm sure you would not condemn the beating of Muslims, please forget the last portion of my statement. I wrote in haste... my apologies

Posted by: Haidon at May 21, 2006 11:51 PM

Deecha

You wrote:

Haidon - perhaps you would care to enlighten we poor dumb Aussies on how to tell the difference between Muslims who support jihad (and the rest of their Fascist nonsense) from Muslims who do not. Is there some distinguishing feature we could look for? A star on the forehead perhaps? Or do we simply believe their words (ever heard of 'taqiyya'?)

I'm sorry, you are completely correct. Its too much of an intellectual exercise to even think of a way to distinguish. We can't so lets get rid of em'all. In fact maybe we can kill all of em. Those poor Cronulla rioters, what could they do? Seriously, so no steps should be made to distinguish, all because you are too lazy? My god... Not only do moderates face wrath and terror from actual jihadists, we face it from you as well Deecha.

I'm not saying that Muslims don't warrant special scrutiny, I just don't want to be killed by rioters. Can you understand that? Scrutinise Muslims, engage in profiling as a legitimate law enforcement tool. This is how we can distinguish. This war is not just yours, moderate Muslims have even more at stake than you do.

You wrote:

our own eyes. Since Muslims (especially from Lebanon) began coming here in the 1980s, we have watched their behaviour - the murders, driveby shootings, drug-dealing, intimidation of ordinary citizens and their increasing refusal to abide by the laws and customs of the country. Muslims are overrepresented in prisons and the welfare system. They have contributed nothing to Australia except the importation of revolting customs like female genital mutilation, women covered from head to toe and hate literature.

Sorry Deecha, these actions happen from within the Lebanises Christian communities as well. Where is your evidence that these acts, were committed because these "Muslims" were following Qur'an and Sunnah?

Are you saying that someone who is a Muslim cannot be a common criminal or thug too? Just because they are Muslim does not mean they commit acts because Islam tells them to do so.

Sorry stopping Muslim immigration would not stop your problems. Most of your problems come from the Lebanese Christian community. You don't have a significant amount of Muslims coming into Australia. I would be supportive of legislation that limits the number however.

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 12:02 AM

"do you think it would have been acceptable for the Cronulla rioters to discern between Muslim and non-Muslim Arabs and just attack, and kill innocent Muslims. WOuld that have been acceptable to you?"

Kill innocent Muslims?
The only people using lethal force (knives, iron bars, baseball bats etc.) were Muslims.
A young Anglo-axon Australian was knifed in the back when he defended two girls a bunch of Muslim thugs threatened to rape.
The Mohammedans kindlt left the knife in the wound ass a parting gift.
Many Australians were bashed into unconciousness with baseball bats and iron bars as they pursued such peaceful activities as buying pizza or putting out the rubbish.
No Muslims were killed and as far as I've heard, no weapons were used by the 'Aussie' crowd.
Personally though, I'd like to see life made very uncomfortable, in every possible way, for all Muslims in Australia...to the point that they are begging to leave the country.
I've had enough of the execrable cult of death, Islam.

"Most of your problems come from the Lebanese Christian community."

On what basis do you make that assumption?
Haidon is the perfect Muslim, lies, lies and more lies in the name of Allah.

The worst Muslims are the so-called moderates -- the taqiyya masters who cause people to pause in condemning Islam, in the hope that there is possibility for reform, and that jihad violence is committed by a small minority of extremists, etc.

Posted by: Mike_W at May 22, 2006 12:29 AM

Mike

I'm not sure what Cronulla riots you are talking about, maybe you saw the pictures of innocent Arabs cowering in fear while drunk vicious, inhumane Australians showed no mercy and smashed them with beer bottles.

I'm sure you would like to do nothing more than harm all Muslims., including children from the sounds of it. You would have been in the riot I'm sure, throwing the first bottle.

As far as Christian Lebanese go, simply look at the suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne where there are substantial Lebanese Christians, statistically there are a higher number of crims. Go to Australia Statistics. The problems in the eighties emerged from criminal lebanese christian gangs.

You wrote

Haidon is the perfect Muslim, lies, lies and more lies in the name of Allah

Getting personal are we? Again, as I have stated before, at least I am a man to fight for what I believe in. I work in Muslim communities, face threats to myself and my non-Muslim wife. So to accuse me of taqiyya is an absolute lie. I dedicate myself to (to no avail yet) to working with Muslim, highlighting the problems, and discussing ways forward. I'm not the only one of course.

Mike, you are the type that gives Robert a bad name.

I don't have time to debate these issues, but if you want to take this to another more complex level: newzealand@freemuslims.org.

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 12:40 AM

3rdtimelucky

an essay on why Australia is racist and Islamophobic?

Give a dictionary definition of phobia (basically an irrational fear) so islamophobia would be an irrational fear of islam.

Now let's look at islam and what do we see? Give the facts, give some quotes from prominent muslims, show crime and rapes, give examples like the monster Pakistani brothers, give bits and pieces of the filth the imams spew, give some terrorist plots uncovered including examples of jihad around the world, Beslan, New York, London, Madrid, Bali, etc. Relate these events back to the concept of islamic jihad, sharia law and Mohammed's life (some research in the JihadWatch archives)

Given this data, these facts, murders, rapes, bullying, theft,the use of terror, then ask why one would not have reason to fear islam, as it brings suffering and pain and destruction. So on the contrary, the Australian fear of islam is not irrational, a phobia, it's a healthy fear, based on reason and facts.

Australia racist? on what is this based? islam is not a race. That's all I can think of now.

Posted by: the poetess at May 22, 2006 12:48 AM

Haidon, you are a Muslim and according to your faith you are required to lie to infidels.

Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405&i=4513

Therefore, as I have no built-in lie detector, I must assume everything you say is a lie.
Nothing personal, just easier and safer that way.

Posted by: Mike_W at May 22, 2006 12:48 AM

Haidon,

"Television you are assuming that there is something different with these so caled Muslim gangs,than there are with any other gang. They are not fighting a jihad, chances are they know very little about Islam."

They don't need to know much about Islam -- their function is just to be ragged foot-soldiers sowing discord, trouble and fear in the Dar-al-Harb. All they need to know is a vague sense of brute pride in being part of the Muslim family, a vague sense of superiority over Infidels, a vague sense that whatever Infidels have is there for the taking and spoliation. In order to function in this role, they need to know this much, but not more -- thereby giving the more clear-thinking (and often moderate-seeming) jihadists plausible deniability: "these are just common criminals, punks -- they have nothing to do with Islam!"

"I had the discpleasure meeting several of these so called gang members when I was over there at a shisha place. What a bunch of morons. I tried to discuss Islam with them, bt these guys wouldnt know the difference between jihad and itjihad."

Trouble is, Haidon, you think the mujahideen and the bin Ladenists also don't know much about Islam -- else, according to you, they wouldn't be doing all those bad things in the name of Islam. At any rate, we're seeing different levels of jihad-consciousness, and every level has its role: the riff-raff work by slow, steady attrition, wearing down the composure and confidence of the Infidel over years, decades, generations... and the beauty of it is, the riff-raff don't even need to be trained: Islamic societies, with their abysmal state of corruption and dysfunction and poverty, are filled with dregs like these that simply need to be unleashed as immigrants in any Western city to cause trouble -- i.e., to be foot-soldiers.

"Television, you wrote:

"ordinary Muslims who take the time to try to present the "peaceful" nature of Islam to Infidels, to ordinary Muslims who by their mere presence as "the nice Muslim guy I know from the tobacco store who wouldn't hurt a fly", to Muslims who work behind the scenes oiling the pockets of gullible Western businessmen and politicians -- a vast army with many different levels, many different roles: each with an eye to the Last Day or Paradise -- whichever comes first".

"Well you have covered up all the bases. That's just about every Muslim on the planet."

When I delineated all those types of "Muslims" I never said they include every Muslim. I am talking about sociological types. The point is, the various types that function in the multi-level enterprise of Jihad cut across all facets of society -- and because of that, we Infidels can't be sure whom to trust. The problematic Muslims don't all wear bright green jumpsuits, easy to identify, nor do they snarl and bare their teeth conveniently for us to say, "Oh, okay, this one is an extremist -- but the Muslim professor who smiles and whose wife offers us some more couscous must be a nice moderate."

Posted by: Television at May 22, 2006 12:51 AM

Haidon,
>>>>Thank you for proving my point about many Australians.

I still don't agree that this is necessarily racsim,,sorry.

New Zealanders are called Kiwi's not only by others but also themsleves!!

I think there needs to be a degree of negativity attached. I was called names in good humour and in no way did I take it as racsim.

However I have found all above posts from you and others to be rather interesting.

Posted by: Gramfan at May 22, 2006 12:52 AM

Haidon - with all due respect - you are in NZ - we have pleanty of Muslims arriving on these (once peaceful) shores.

And please don't lecture me on the aboriginals - I have lived in small towns with these people for a decade of my life - and there are two broad types:

1) Those that refuse government hand outs and work for a living (like the rest of us). These guys are usually taunted by there "brethren" - some of whom are sporting blonde hair and blue eyes

2) Those that "claim" aboriginality to get free hand outs by our stupid government.

I have watched as poor non aboriginal families from Anglo/Greek/Italian/Vietnamese backgrounds scrimp and scrape to cents together to try and send their kids on a school camp; only then to see the government throw money at the aboriginals - simply based on race. So yes Haidon - in that view my government is racist.

Your very insinuation that it is “all white mans fault” is hypocritical. You are living in New Zealand aren’t you? I hope you are giving over your house, your taxes, your belongings to the Maoris (sp). No? Oh so you are happy condemning the “white man”; yet happy to deny those who you purport to support (indigenous people) by living in the white mans Western society. Hypocrite!

Besides as a Muslim you have a hide lecturing my country men on the treatment of original occupants to a land. Islam is the greatest coloniser of all time! Besides - I am an indigenous Australian; I was born here. Tell me what is the Arabic word for black and slave?

The Christian Lebanese have been much less of a problem than the Muslim ones Haidon.

I'm yet to see Christian Lebanese en masse burn down Mosques, shoot at them with illegal firearms all the while shouting joys to their God.

I'm yet to see the Christian Arabs send two Mufti's to court at great expense, with the threat of jail, simply for reading the Koran.

I'm yet to see Christian Arabs plotting to overthrow my government as has Jihad Jack; Jack Roche; David Hicks et al

I'm yet to see a recognized leader of the Arab Christian Church come out and say that 9/11 was a Jewish Plot (Sultan Dean - Head of the Islamic groups in QLD)

I'm yet to see Arab Christians dancing and shouting for joy as the Twin Towers came tumbling down - as my aunty did when she was in a shopping centre and looked over into a innocent looking Kebab shop.

I'm yet to see Christian Lebanese pack raping an Aussie girl "because she was Australian"

I'm yet to see a Christian Pastor of Arab extraction say that its the woman’s fault if she is raped.

I'm yet to see a Christian bookshop sell books on how to kill and overthrow my government.

I’m yet to see a Christian Arab Pastor who represents a large body of Christians like the Grand Mufti of Australia say its OK to be a suicide bomber overseas.

I could go on, but your attempt at moral equivalence is pathetic.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 22, 2006 12:53 AM

Thanks Poetess - this Korean girl is aparently naive about Western "education".

I want her to do well - but I want her to tell the truth also.

I will do that - I had another student do it recently - but that was at the high school level, not the expensive uni one.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 22, 2006 1:00 AM

'Pakistan Is a slum'

say that ten times fast.

Posted by: somethingaboutislam at May 22, 2006 1:00 AM

"Again, as I have stated before, at least I am a man to fight for what I believe in" - Haidon

What's that? The words of a man who had sex not only with whomever he desired, but that of a six year old girl?????

The words of a war lord who crushed many an indigenous culture (you do care about indigenous people don't you??)

The words and morals of a war lord who relegated non believers to a second rate status that has lead to countless misery around the world.

The words and morals of a war lord that instituted slavery - that still goes on today in the Islamic world - because Islam is incapable of free thought and reformation - simply because the Koran is the inerrant word of god?

The words and morals of a war lord who said "war is deceit" and that Allah can go back on his word (equals that Allah is a lair; and cannot be trusted)

The words and morals of a war lord who said the only guarantee that you can get to heaven (where sex awaits) is if you die fighting infidels in the name of Islam.

Yes - definitley morals and a belief worth fighting for? Say your not Bin Laden are you?

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 22, 2006 1:05 AM

Haidon wrote: "The problems in the eighties emerged from criminal lebanese christian gangs."

If a proportion of Lebanese Christian youth are dysfunctional enough to engage habitually in criminal behaviors, it's likely largely because they come out of a profoundly dysfunctional society that has been made dysfunctional by the ruling Muslim culture over centuries of that institutionalized depravity and corruption called "Islam".

Posted by: Television at May 22, 2006 1:09 AM

Gramfan

Hi. The word Kiwi is not viewed derogatorily. It could not be construed as racist, and I think there is a difference. However, call a Japanese person a "nip" or a lebanese person a lab, and one is liable to be in trouble.

Television

You wrote

Trouble is, Haidon, you think the mujahideen and the bin Ladenists also don't know much about Islam -- else, according to you, they wouldn't be doing all those bad things in the name of Islam. At any rate, we're seeing different levels of jihad-consciousness, and every level has its role: the riff-raff work by slow, steady attrition, wearing down the composure and confidence of the Infidel over years, decades, generations... and the beauty of it is, the riff-raff don't even need to be trained: Islamic societies, with their abysmal state of corruption and dysfunction and poverty, are filled with dregs like these that simply need to be unleashed as immigrants in any Western city to cause trouble -- i.e., to be foot-soldiers.

No I do. They know a great deal. Bin LAden and Zarqawi can justify an attack using copious amounts of Quran and Sunnah, moderates can barely muster a couple fo out of context aya from the Qur'an.

Again, people who happen to be Muslim are also capable of being common criminals. Most of these foot soldiers are not Jihadists, just morons, who drink alot of vodka and shoot alot of heroin, and sniff alot of coke. There is nothing Islamic about some of these guys at all. Just because a Muslim immigrates, does not make him, her or his/her family a dreg. It is wrong to paint all Muslims with this brush. I agre that distingusihing can be difficult. But most Aussie Muslims are law abiding, most want a good life. We don't have large problems with Muslims here in NZ (except for Canterbury). This of course does not mean there is not a problem.

3rd Time. I was not trying to equivocate Christian and Muslim Lebanese. I realise there are Muslim problems in Australia, generally however they don't come from Lebanese Muslims 9especially those who have been here for a couple of decades now. Most come from Pakistanis, Indians, Egyptians, Syrians. I'm mot saying Lebanese Muslims were perfect (far from it as we see post Cronualla).

You wrote

Besides as a Muslim you have a hide lecturing my country men on the treatment of original occupants to a land. Islam is the greatest coloniser of all time! Besides - I am an indigenous Australian; I was born here. Tell me what is the Arabic word for black and slave?

I can't respond to this. I don't identify as part of the Ummah. I am an American and a New Zealander.

I'm not condemning you personally 3 rd time. New Zealanders however have a good relationship with Maori (Treaty of Waitangi) we signed and honoured an agreement. We are a bi-lingual (Maori/English) country. Maori views are incorporated into most levels of policy development. But we have a better record that your country does when it comes tor ace relations, that is indisputable.

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 1:12 AM

You wrote

Haidon wrote: "The problems in the eighties emerged from criminal lebanese christian gangs."

If a proportion of Lebanese Christian youth are dysfunctional enough to engage habitually in criminal behaviors, it's likely largely because they come out of a profoundly dysfunctional society that has been made dysfunctional by the ruling Muslim culture over centuries of that institutionalized depravity and corruption called "Islam".

Come on Television. Now you are excusing their behaviour. Most of the Lebanese Christians in Sydeny and Melbourne are from Beirut, where Christians thrive (well, as well as a Christian can thrive in a Muslim country).

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 1:14 AM

3rd Time

My diatribe was not aimed at you.

I believe that Islam can be reformed (you cannot, so lets move on). I have engaged with Muslim communities to discuss these issues, even the issue of the Prophet Muhammad's sexual relationship with Aisha, which I find morally reviling. I discuss these issues, freely and frankly with Muslims.

But at least I am out there doing something. I almost get the feeling that some (especialy posters here) wished I did not. Some not only dont beieve Islam can reform, but dont want it to reform either. The first step in resolving any problem, is identifying the problem, and this is partially what I am doing within Muslim cacuses.

To call me Bin Laden is harsh. I despise jihadists and believe in separating mosque from state. I will always fight against jihadists. But at the same time, I will try and work with Muslims. I want to help salvage Islam, not destroy it. You will never change my mind, that this is a worthwhile cause, nor will I change yours. So there is no need further to proceed this aspect of our discussion. We can all laugh about the prospects of reform, but please lets just leave it here for the moment.

Incidentally, I do not follow the words of Muhammad. I follow some of the guding principles of the Qur'an, alone. I do not follow Sunnah. (This is another argument that I dont want to get into).

Cheers
TH

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 1:27 AM

I can't respond to this. I don't identify as part of the Ummah.

Haidon

Normally, I try and avoid asking other posters personal questions, but given the topic at hand - Islam, how do you identify yourself as a Muslim, and yet refuse to recognize yourself as a part of the Muslim "community" (no offense, but I use the quoted term loosely). Isn't that contradictory? Even if you lived the life of a total recluse, avoiding any contact with fellow Muslims?

For instance, I am a Hindu, and in our religion, we do not have the equivalent of the Ummah, that divides us from those who don't believe in Hinduism. Yet, having stated that I am a Hindu, I can't state that I don't recognize myself as a member of the group of people who profess Hinduism as their religion, even if I led a lifestyle identical to Mycroft Holmes, can I?

You also concede

Bin LAden and Zarqawi can justify an attack using copious amounts of Quran and Sunnah, moderates can barely muster a couple fo out of context aya from the Qur'an.

Yet, further down below, you continue to say

I believe that Islam can be reformed (you cannot, so lets move on)

I am perfectly happy to honor your wish, and it is really none of my business that you want to make this a major project in your life. That said, without asking you how Islam can be reformed, the question I would like to ask is, "How can a selected few verses of the Quran alone, taken out of context, serve as a foundation of an Islam for Muslims to prefer to a millenium old religion that is so well laid out, albeit ugly for infidels?"

Another error on your part worth pointing out -

I realise there are Muslim problems in Australia, generally however they don't come from Lebanese Muslims 9especially those who have been here for a couple of decades now. Most come from Pakistanis, Indians, Egyptians, Syrians.

Indian Muslims don't migrate to Australia. The ones who don't stay in India usually migrate to the Gulf - UAE, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Any Muslims you see from the sub-continent are either from Pakistan or Bangladesh.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 22, 2006 1:54 AM

Haidon says,

"I'm sure you wouldnt have the balls to call an Arab a leb thats for sure."

What is it, exactly, that you are implying about "Arabs" and "lebs," respectively?

"Bloody Aussies."

All that lecturing on over-generalization, and you give us that?

As for your comments on posters who are critical of Islam hiding behind pseudonyms, this seems to be a cheap shot. You say this knowing that if we reveal our names, there is a considerable risk that we, or our family members, or indeed anyone asociated with us, could be killed for expressing our views. Please do pardon our cowardice for not turning over our names to the international network of jihadists who have nothing better to do except threaten, terrorize, and slaughter any civilian who even remotely says something off-key about Islam.

I'm not sure that I would characterize your revelation of your own name as terribly brave. Are you more brave than us? I think Robert is brave. Hirsi Ali is brave. Or rather did you simply find yourself in a situation where, having already revealed your name and having made some comments that rubbed some conservative Muslims the wrong way, that you received death threats? Welcome to the club. All non-Muslims live under a death threat at all times simply by being, acting, and talking like non-Muslims. And all Muslims live under a death threat lest they say or do something that constitutes apostasy or blasphemy according to whoever happens to be interpreting those "shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings."

In any case, you're defending the Koran, and that much will keep you out of trouble with most Muslims. So you have less to fear than those of us who criticize frankly. We are at a higher risk of being killed. Any jihadist who was determined enough could track us all down pretty easily, but we are taking a calculated risk, just like you. But I'd rather put a pseudonym to my argument than put up a pseudo-argument.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 22, 2006 2:09 AM

Some reading material:

http://www.islam-watch.org/ (also see the "Library")

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AbulKasem40730.htm The Root of Terrorism a la Islamic Style, by Abul Kasem.

(This one by me examines Koran verse 5:32--you know that wonder-quote that says killing one man is like killing all mankind)
http://www.islam-watch.org/Archemedez/KillingInKoran.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islkill.htm This brief article deals with the doctrine tattarrus--very interesting.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 22, 2006 2:47 AM

Haidon,

I may have missed most of the fun, but I read through this thread and all I can say is "tutto fumo, niente arrosto..."

No credit for your lies, I guess you just have to do what you are doing because "Allah" expects this of you, so go on, a little more smoke for the infidels... but never mind, we do have your number!

We are proud "Aussies", we are "Krauts, wogs, (I look a little 'woggy myself) poms, japs, chinks, Yanks" and god knows what. No apologies! We don't object, we all fit in and we all get along. And we take care of our Aborigines, that is NOT YOUR business! Rest assured that they are doing better then under a sharia caliphate!

But now we are 'racist' because a 'leb' Mohammedan liar should be called what exactly? Get stuffed!

Just address the issues, Haidon! All you do is deflect and obscure. Jihad is the central duty of every soldier of Allah and your chosen "religion", and if you remain behind when the jihad rages, then you should be killed and you will be roasted in hellfire, that is what Islam teaches, is it not?

Most of the posters above have already answered you, so I won't bother. But one thing I know: Try to pull another Cronulla in NZ and you might find that the Maoris will not lay down their clubs when you call them 'racists', it wouldn't surprise me if that day is coming soon!

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 22, 2006 2:48 AM

Government should outlaw ALL free speech.
That'll stick the jihadists in their place!

Posted by: Mike Schneider at May 22, 2006 3:05 AM

Archimedes

I do understand why some people are nervous to post their names. Perhaps I was being harsh, but I get sick of personal attacks from people whom I know nothing about. At least when I state my real name, people can do a bit of research to see if I am another "taqiyya spouting" Muslim. Of course I think Robert and Hirsi Ali are brave as well.

I just think its cowardly for a person to accuse me of taqiyya or the like with a psedonym, when they can find out about me with a simple web search.

Your wrote:

In any case, you're defending the Koran, and that much will keep you out of trouble with most Muslims. So you have less to fear than those of us who criticize frankly. We are at a higher risk of being killed. Any jihadist who was determined enough could track us all down pretty easily, but we are taking a calculated risk, just like you. But I'd rather put a pseudonym to my argument than put up a pseudo-argument.

You might be right, however I make these arguments in Muslim caucuses. I have had some threats, but I am not worried. But your point is taken, and I understand, especially why you do not reveal your name (i have read some of your writings off the JW site).

Sheikh

I'm not sure how to respond, but again more personal attacks. More accusations of taqiyya and deception. Well produce your proof. Before someone makes such serious allegations they should back them up. Again, I spend my time fighting jihadism. I've even gone up against academics like George Williams in your country defending John Howard's record on terrorism. And have worked towards having similar legislation passed in NZ. So please...

Your wrote:

I may have missed most of the fun, but I read through this thread and all I can say is "tutto fumo, niente arrosto..."

No credit for your lies, I guess you just have to do what you are doing because "Allah" expects this of you, so go on, a little more smoke for the infidels... but never mind, we do have your number!

You have my number? What will you do with it? Is that a threat? I just wonder why, when a Muslim disagrees with other posters at JW, he is automatically labelled. I think its amusing, especially from someone who hides behind a pseudonym.

And thank you for admitting that Aussies are racist. Thank you. Aside from your Prime Minister

And as far as your other accusation

Just address the issues, Haidon! All you do is deflect and obscure.

I have always admitted that this is a problem in Islam, that fourteen hundred years have taught this. I have never denied this, and have encouraged Muslims to talk about this and fight this. I have spoken to my own peril, about the fallibility of the Prophet and his relationship with Asiha. On the third to last day of Ramadan while giving a Khutbah, I challenged Muslims to look beyond Mohammed and to look towards Jesus as a prophet to emulate. So please, I am entrenched in this ideological war.

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 3:10 AM

Well Mike, in Australia that would be easy. There is no bill of rights. It is one of the only countries that could pull it off. But seriously, they have so much legal scope to ban inflammatory Islamic materials.

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 3:15 AM

Well Mike, in Australia that would be easy. There is no bill of rights. It is one of the only countries that could pull it off. But seriously, they have so much legal scope to ban inflammatory Islamic materials.

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 3:15 AM

Another thing that irks me, Haidon, something that I find totally repugnant, is that you advertise "proudly under your own name..."

Some hero you are! Do you live in fear for your life? Has anybody physically attacked you for growing a beard, for wearing a kaftan and a coffee-filter? I guess not.

You see, it is not a secret that Islam is a criminal organization that habitually cuts the throats and kills those identified as "enemies of the cult"- Not everyone lives in 'undisclosed Locationville' and not everyone wants to have 3 to 4 bodyguards around day & night. I will take you on though, anytime, anywhere:

You name it, TV, radio, any kind of talk-show. But I will make sure that the necessary security arrangements are made. I wouldn't trust you with that...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 22, 2006 3:15 AM

While I agree Haidon is full of imflammatory nonsense and he seems to have agitated my fellow Aussies, there is one point that gave me pause to think.. Haidon's point was that he would like to see Islam reformed, and a separation of mosque and state.. Isnt that what RS wants too? I am pretty sure having been paying attention now for weeks that he isnt looking to kill before we get killed which does seem to be a significant theme for some of the people posting here.

Am I wrong?

Tea time in Sydney....

Posted by: payingattention at May 22, 2006 3:18 AM

payingattention,

Islam has had nearly 1400 years to "reform" ad it has failed.
The stratey of the taqiyya talking "moderate" mohammedans like Haidon is to keep decent people hoping that reform of Islam is possible right up until the knife is at their throats.

Posted by: Mike_W at May 22, 2006 4:07 AM

Posted by: Archimedes at May 22, 2006 4:26 AM

Sheikh

I think its actually hilarious that you find me the great enemy, like I'm some sort of muhajideen and you are some great crusader. What will we discuss in that conversation that Islam has major problems? Or that there are alot of bad Muslims, or how some so called moderates like to talk about reform but are full of shit? I don't think we would be arguing because I agree. A also agree that it is difficult to decipher the messages of moderates.

I have been attacked in the Middle East (Egypt and Sudan for speaking my views). There was one incident in Wellington (I came home from an All Blacks game in Wellington and I had the words Ridda scrawled across my driveway in spray paint (earlier that day I gave an "inflammatory: khutbah apparently). So I am no stranger to this.

I'm not afraid to give my address, in fact feel free to publish it:

12 West Road
Northland
Wellington

Here is my phone number as well

64 27 425 0413

You name it, TV, radio, any kind of talk-show. But I will make sure that the necessary security arrangements are made. I wouldn't trust you with that...

I would not ask for your personal contact details. I would never attempt to harm anyone by the way. I respect your right to say what you please, and guess what I would defend that right against any Islamist who said otherwise. I find it pretty sad that you fear me just because I am Muslim. Again I would never harm anyone and am insulted by your remark. At no point did I make any sort of physical threat against you.

I'm not the one who defended the Cronulla assault on innocent people, so it is I who should fear you.

But I would be happy to debate you. Unfortuantely however people would automatically dismiss you in most forms of media and would automatically be sympathetic to me, because I am Muslim, and this is the sort of PC world we live in. BUt if you can find an appropriate medium where you are comfortable in, lets go. You have my contact details now...

Payingattention

Have you been paying attention? Why am I full of inflammatory nonsense? Because I disagree with posters here? Does that make me a jihadist or taqiyya master?

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 4:27 AM

Im sorry third time, you do have problems with the few Indian Muslims in your country,

You wrote

ask is, "How can a selected few verses of the Quran alone, taken out of context, serve as a foundation of an Islam for Muslims to prefer to a millenium old religion that is so well laid out, albeit ugly for infidels?"

Islam is not well laid out. It is flawed, ugly and in the gutter. For fourteen hundred years Islam has been corrupted. Man made interrference through Hadith and fiqh have made Islam what it is today. The Qur'an while still problematic, is a document capable of an interpretation that is non-literal and contextual. (Oh... sh*t I shouldnt have said that)

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 4:31 AM

Oops! A blank post. Probably my best post ever.

***

In light of Haidon's charges of cowardice, which he has moderated now, I will just add that anonymity is truly a tactic that should be exploited for all it's worth for those forced to use it. It's not cowardly to use a shield against an opponent that uses a sword. Bravery is one thing, but walking into a hail of bullets is not an effective use of one's life.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 22, 2006 4:32 AM

haidon -- what will be left of Islamic theology once you (hopefully) can strip the inhumanity out of it?

Keep demonizing the unbelievers (but don't kill them)? I suppose that's an improvement.

Posted by: Hyman Roth at May 22, 2006 4:33 AM

Haidon wrote:

"At least when I state my real name, people can do a bit of research to see if I am another "taqiyya spouting" Muslim."

It ain't that easy.

With some Muslims, they are rather sloppy and count on Infidels not tracking down their paper trail. Even with these, one needs a Robert Spencer & Friends to do some of the diligent paperwork.

Other Muslims are more clever, and it would take a PI who knows Arabic to determine if they are taqiyya artists. Fehmi Naji el-Imam of Melbourne (as of 2005 he was, apparently, general secretary of the Board of Imams of Victoria) is one such about which one doesn't know if he's sincere, or just ultra-clever, when for example he says he didn't know that jihad camps run by the extremist Indonesian political movement, Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah, which is associated with terrorist group Laskar Jihad, were using his mosque (Preston Mosque) for recruitment and organization -- with Muslims from all parts of Australia, having Algerian, Somali, Lebanese, Palestinian and Philippine backgrounds being part of these jihad camps.

"Sheikh Fehmi said while mosque patrons ran many summer camps for children and adults, he was not aware of mosque patrons or members organising military camps."

"But Sheikh Fehmi said the existence of such camps, or the presence of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah could not be ruled out as the mosque had between 500 and 1000 members."

Nice wiping of the hands, Fehmi. Plausible deniability? Taqiyya? How are we Infidels supposed to know? Do a little "research on Google" then entrust our lives and the lives of our children to someone who seems to pass Google muster?

Posted by: Television at May 22, 2006 4:35 AM

Sorry 3rd time my post above was incomplete. There are several known Islamists who are Indian in Sydney and in Canberra

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 4:58 AM

I lost my friggin post and can't get it back up!

Haidon: I got your number means: 'I got your schtick, I know your game, I know what you're up to...'- that's all.

You KNOW that!

Again, you are not sincere. You keep playing the race-card when you KNOW that RACE is not an issue, that is annoying and I am increasingly irritated with your mental gymnastics!

You don't know what race I am, but you keep poking in the same direction. Let me tell you that in my (extended) family we have many colors and just about everything but Islam. Race is (almost) NEVER the issue!

Good luck with 'reforming' Islam! Obviously you are wasting your time here on JW/DW, shouldn't you spent your energy on the ummah and on the 'clerics' like Quaradwi? I'm sure they will be very open to your ideas!

About hatred:

let me tell you this: Muhammedans have a lot of words for us, like 'kufr, kafir, mushrikun, infidel' etc. The grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani in Iraq on his website under 'things najis' lists 'kafir' next to urine & feces, cadavers etc. and you come here telling us that we are 'racist' because we call a 'leb' a 'leb?' Kiwis & Aussies are ok, poms or kikes are ok, but the 'leb' makes me racist? Come off it!

Race is no issue, Haidon. Don't pretend it is, your credibility's gone south already.

And sympathy for the devil in a PC environment? You are hoping against hope, Haidon. Aussies may not be there just yet, but it won't be long before they have your number. The word is getting out...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 22, 2006 4:59 AM

Television

No its not easy. There are no truly moderate sheikh's in Australia. Fehmi Naji el-Imam is not sincere. I heard him speak in Auckland last year, same rubbish coming out of his mouth. Th enext day in Wellington he changed his tone because non-Muslim media and Jewish representative was there. So what's new...

Rehanna Ali is another example in this country. They love her so much here. I thought she was fantastic until she advised me that the four American contractors in Falujah who were burnt to death and paraded down the street deserved their punishment.

Real moderates? Here they are Sheikh Ahmed Mansour, Tawfi Hamid, Abdullahi Na'im, Fazlur Rahman. I can only walk in their footsteps. Of course for their troubles, they have been marginalised and essentially exiled in their native Muslim countries.

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 5:06 AM

Sheikh

Still not getting you. The global fight against Islam is not about race I agree. What is appening in Eurpoe, no its not about race. But with Australians, it always about race.

I still don't understand why I am being dishonest. Just because I disagree with you? So anyone who holds a different view is an obsfucator, liar?

Your wrote

let me tell you this: Muhammedans have a lot of words for us, like 'kufr, kafir, mushrikun, infidel' etc. The grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani in Iraq on his website under 'things najis' lists 'kafir' next to urine & feces, cadavers etc. and you come here telling us that we are 'racist' because we call a 'leb' a 'leb?' Kiwis & Aussies are ok, poms or kikes are ok, but the 'leb' makes me racist? Come off it!

You know "leb" is a racist word for an Arab. Sistani is not an Australian. Don't blame all Lebanese and Arabs for Sistani.

I'll be very clear here, and not mince words. I support profiling and monitoring of Muslims. This is an unfortunate but necessary by product of the state of the world. I support scrutiny of Islam. I stood before the Constitutional and Foriegn Affairs Trade And Defence Select Committee and discussed the case of Pastor Daniel Scot, and the dangers of religious vilification laws. So please, overall criticism of Islam has nothing to do with race. But again, Auatralians have made it about race, all because they can't distinguish and don't try.

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 5:13 AM

"I lost my friggin post and can't get it back up!"

Sheik,

not sure if this was your problem but if your login 'times out' you can use the 'back' typekey to 'copy' your post, then log in again and 'post' it.

Posted by: Mike_W at May 22, 2006 5:14 AM

Sheikh

You wrote

Aussies may not be there just yet, but it won't be long before they have your number. The word is getting out...

Again this sounds like a threat.

You wrote

Good luck with 'reforming' Islam! Obviously you are wasting your time here on JW/DW, shouldn't you spent your energy on the ummah and on the 'clerics' like Quaradwi? I'm sure they will be very open to your ideas!

I come to JW watch because I support Robert's work. I always have supported his work and have an enormous amount of respect for him. Why? Because he makes clear arguments that are devastatingly effective. He does so, without personal invective or judgment. To date, (myself included) no so called moderate Muslim has ever answered his challenge.

I have gone to the Middle East and spoken. I went back to Al Azhar where I converted to Islam in 2004 and stood face to face with At Tantawi, Grand Mufti and argued with him about abrogation and blind Muslim worship of Muhammad, I even spoke at the SHahid mosque in Khartoum in 2003 and argued against Sunnah, and shariah, arguing for complete Muslim accession to the Universal declration of Human Rights. I have defended in Sudanese courts of law refugee apostates from Islam...Again I am entrenched in this fight...

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 5:23 AM

I have to interject here. I too am skeptical of Muslims. However, but I have seen Thomas Haidon in action so to speak. He downplays the threat against him. His wife Charlotte , a non-Muslim was grabbed two weeks ago and punched in the stomach walking home a day after Haiden debated a member of the Muslim brotherhood on Al Aribayya television and called the member scum on arab tv. That same day he appeared on a debate on NZ Public radio where he debated NZ's foremost Islamist Sheikh Mohammed Amir of the Muslim Association of Canterbury. I have never heard a Muslim so aware of the threat of Islamists. And most importantly, he does this within his community. Haidon you are an idiot for giving your address. haiden also was vocal against the Muslim reaction to the cartoons. He had the cartoons published himself. He also spoke out vocally for apostates like Ali Sina, Ibn Waraq and Abudl Rahman in Afghanistan I know that you do live in Wellington. What is something happened to that pretty little wife or yours Would be such a shame.

Posted by: David Craig at May 22, 2006 5:41 AM

DavidCraig

Im not sure how you could possibly know this about my wife. That is not exactly what happened at all. I wont go into details, but there is no reason to get personal and drag my wife into this. Im particularly alarmed about your last remark about my wife by the way.

I'm not sure who you are. Do I know you?

Posted by: Haidon at May 22, 2006 5:48 AM

"I'm not sure who you are. Do I know you?"

Yet another sock puppet of Mohammed?

Posted by: Mike_W at May 22, 2006 6:28 AM

By "6th. Pillar of Islam" do you mean the threat of Jihad?

In the sense that the 6th Pillar is a component of Islam, yes.

I define the 6th Pillar is as the threat of personal murder. In other words, if I'm an scholar, journalist, or politician and decide to venture forth and expose the murders of Abu Afak and Asma Marwan to a broad public, I must hesitate and mull whether I will be shot and killed, stabbed and maimed, or blown up upon turning my car key.

Or my wife. Or my children.

That is a powerful force to self-censor that is seldom discussed, even in here.

MO 6TH PILLARS MO HALAL HAMBURGER HELPER FILLERS MO KORAN SHILLERS MO

For example, virtually every critic of Islam resides in Secured Undisclosed Locationvillle.

But you don't see any "radical" muftis living anonymously; that's how they're able to retrieve those welfare checks from their mailboxes without threat of losing a hand.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer