In the 19th century it began to dawn on the most intelligent and aware Muslims that something was not right with Islam. They could, in India or in Persia or elsewhere, meet representatives of the Western world. They could find out what was happening, dimly or clearly, what was happening in that world, what that world could do, what it produced, its achievements, its laws, its mores, its manners.

Occasionally a ruler would send a few subjects to visit Europe to find out how they did it, and above all, to find out how they did it when it came to military advances.

A few of those who must have understood that something was wrong with Islam offered their own ways out. One was the religion of the Bahais, which accepted monotheism but rejected the whole division of the world between Believer and Infidel. In the Middle East, it could appeal to Muslims, seeking a way out that looked familiar, and to Jews and Christians, also seeking another way out of their own difficult situation, and perhaps hopeful that this Bahai doctrine might offer a third way to everyone.

One wonders if what prompted the Ahmadiyyas, or Qadianis, who consider themselves Muslims but few orthodox Muslims share that view (and their non-Islamness is constantly reiterated in Pakistan by all kinds of official forms that need to be filled out), was not the same impulse: to somehow get out from under the intolerable parts of Islam, and hope that more and more of the "real" Muslims would also see this as a way out.

Topics for study and discussion.

Posted by: Hugh at June 1, 2006 4:17 PM

Had no idea Bahá'í Faith was founded in Persia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahais

And never heard of the Ahmadiyya or Qadianis people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmedi

What is clear is that the Iranian leader is acting a lot like Hitler.

Posted by: Pass It On at June 1, 2006 5:31 PM

The "Bab", or the 'John the Baptist' figure of the dawning Bahai faith, was killed by Muslims as an apostate. Of course.

The "prophet" of Bahai, Bahaullah, was imprisoned for most of his life as an de facto apostate by the Muslim authorities, but, because he had an influential familiy, he escaped their vicious, sanctimonious axe.

I agree with Hugh that this kinder, gentler offshoot of Islam (with Zoroastrian influences) is one of the best hopes for Muslims.

If they can avoid the Christian convert/Muslim apostate of Afghanistan Mr. Abu Rahman's original fate -of Muslim-decreed death. Only Western protest got him a flight to exile in Italy instead of his head placed mockingly on his back after the ritual Koranic murder. The usual outcome in Islamic lands of anyone who dares abandon the cult of the pedophile warlord and "prophet" of "holy" intolerance Mohammad.

Bahais I've met are 1350 years ahead of any Muslims I've encountered.

My prayers are with every Mohammedan who hopes to escape the theocratic prison of Islam and find peace in this far more enlightened creed.

Posted by: profitsbeard at June 1, 2006 7:26 PM

"I agree with Hugh that this kinder, gentler offshoot of Islam (with Zoroastrian influences) is one of the best hopes for Muslims."

--profitsbeard

==========

I don't think that Hugh is indicating that. Instead, he's pointing to Ba'hai as an example of an attempt to reform/escape Islam which, after 100 or more years of existence, has had little influence outside of a small, persecuted group.

100+ years ago, a civilized version of islam palatable to muslims on a wide scale was the intent of Ba'hai, and it has largely failed to achieve its ends.

Now, a civilized version islam palatable to muslims on a wide scale is the intent of , and its results will probably be __________?

Posted by: Hyman Roth at June 1, 2006 8:22 PM

Robert, I'm amazed you missed this:

The Qur'an reported to the police

By Kent Olsen, correspondent to Jyllands-Posten

A broad alliance of grass-roots movements have gone to the prosecutors of several states to hinder the dissemination of the Quran. According to the indictment, the Quran is not just a religious and historic book, but also a political book, which is incompatible with the constiution.

Berlin

At the prosecutor’s office at Gorch-Forck-Wall 15 in Hamburg, an unusual letter was received Monday morning, containing an indictment filed this weekend. The indictment targeted the Quran, charging that the holy book of the Moslems, according to the accuser, is incompatible with the German constitution.

“Support Denmark!”
The accuser is “Bundesverband der Bürgerbewegungen (BVB)”, which concerns itself with, in its own words, “defending basic rights and freedoms” against Islam. The extensive international furore, allegedly caused by the Muhammed cartoons, has made clear the relevancy of the alliance. Its homepage is decorated with a Danish flag with the words “Support Denmark! Defend the Free World” superimposed on it.

The indictment has been filed in several states, including Hamburg, Niedersachsen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Bayern and probably more.

In several talkshows on German TV, conservative politicians have pointed out that the Quran is incompatible with the German constitution. The Turkish-born writer Serap Cileli said on January 29 this year that “the Quran must be considered a historic document. It is not compatible with our constitution and Human Rights.”

Now the alliance wants the matter tried at the courts.

Potent political book
The author of the indictment in Hamburg, Jutta Starke, says that the Quran was reported to the police two or three years ago, but that the report was dismissed on the grounds that it was a book of only historical interest.

“The events of the last months have made clear that the Quran isn’t just a historical book, but very much a potent political book, a thing which we document extensively in the indictment,” Jutta Starke says.

She says it is a task of sisyphean dimensions to inform the media, politicians and churches of the true intentions of Islam in the enlightened world of the West.

“We are grateful to Jyllands-Posten that discussions about Islam have now become possible,” says Jutta Starke.

“You suffer for all of Europe and that’s why we find it indecent that Europe hasn’t loudly, in unison, taken a stand for Freedom of Speech against the laws of the Quran.”

The indictment consists of five pieces of paper and a number of appendices. The indictment says that it is not against Islam’s spiritual message, but against the judicial and political message.

The decisive count of the indictment “is in the Quran’s status vis a vis the Federal Republic of Germany’s constitution”. In the appendices to the indictment, 200 points have been listed “where the Quran is against and claims itself above the constitution.”

The Quran has an answer to everything
It is pointed out that the Quran to Moslems is the end all, be all in matters of faith, in matters of society and state and in the discourse with people of different views. The Quran says that it is the words of Allah. According to the views of several, including leading, Moslems in Germany, it is literally and absolutely true at all time and in all places, the indictment says.

The newly elected German-born chairman of the Moslem Central Council of German, Ayyub Axel Köhler, is quoted in the indictment:

“A constitution after the principle of the division of powers into the legislative, the executive and the judicial powers, is nowhere to be found in the Islamic theory of the State. From an Islamic viewpoint, this is obvious, since the laws – the laws of God – in the form of sharia, are already made and thus no legislative power is needed, in that sense of the word. Only Allah is the legislative power.”

Muslim Chancellor
A prominent Moslem, Ibrahim El-Zayat, is quoted as saying that he thinks it is possible that “the Federal Chancellor in 2020 is a Moslem, born and raised in Germany, that the Federal Supreme Court has a Moslem judge, and that a Moslem representative will be on the Federal Radio/TV Council to secure the Moslem citizens’ constitutionally guaranteed rights.”

“This land is our land and it is our duty to make positive changes. With the help of Allah, we will make it a paradise on Earth, by making available the Islamic ummah (ED: Islamic community) and all of mankind. Allah doesn’t change the situation of a people till the people have changed the situtation,” El-Zayad is quoted as saying.

Violence against the infidels
The indictment is against the 200 verses of 114 suras (chapters) of the Quran that are not compatible with the constitution, including demagoguery, incitement to murder, murder and mutilation, war, acceptance of thievery against infidels, meaning all non-Moslems. Verses are also pointed out where the equal rights of men and women are not upheld and where people of different faiths are oppressed.

Example: “The unbelievers among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians): They are the vilest of all creatures.” (Sura 98:6)

According to the indictment that paragraph violates Article 4 of the Constitution and Paragraph 166 of the Penal Code.

Translation taken from the Agora weblog.

Posted by: Godefroi de Boulogne at June 1, 2006 8:39 PM

To what extent are Bahai Islamic? Not according to what the Islamic Republic says, but according to their own texts, from Bahaullah?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 1, 2006 9:46 PM

Check this out, from MPACUK (Muslim Political Action Council/UK):

The summary invites Muslims to adopt a stance that is fundamentally contrary to the tenets of Islam and can only be adopted in the face of compelling force. Islam should never allow itself to subjugated by other so-called religions nor seek to accomodate atheism. It is the sacred duty of every Muslim to eshew the temptations and intrinsic impurity contained within of any compromise. It is the duty of the Muslim to seek to spread the word and the rule of Islam wherever it is absent. Under no circumstance should the Muslim bow their head to anyone or thing other than Allah (PBUH). The compromise that is required of a Muslim in participating in the poltical processes in this country require the subordination of the individual to the state and the head of that state. This entails the submission by a Muslim to a Christian woman, which is an offense, and a declaration of exclusive loyalty to the same. Despite the claims of corrupted community leaders there is no compromise contained within Islam and consequently Muslims may not particpate in the political system until such times as Islam has become dominant. It is impossible to a true Muslim to serve both Islam and the British Head of State. All other proposals are the work of Shaytan!

Well, this just about says it all, doesn't it?

Posted by: Godefroi de Boulogne at June 1, 2006 10:11 PM

Hyman Roth-

Communication is now a little faster and widespread than 1860-80 when the Bahais were being slaughtered by Muslims. There are now about 5,000,000 worldwide, which is a seed community that could draw dissident Mohammedans, should they know that such a possibility exists, and has 'Islamic roots'.

I'd encourage all Muslims to become Bahais.

Since they're more likely to head in that direction than Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or Mormonism.

And the result would be a de-fanged Islam.

The Christians were a minority for centuries before they took off.

It also short-circuits Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's end-times lunacy, because their "prophet" Bahaullah is already considered, by Bahais, to be the long-awaited Shi'ite 12th [Hidden] Imam / or Mahdi.

So there wouldn't be any apocalypse needed for his "return" if he has already come.

Let's not close off any escape valves from Islam just because the Bahais haven't succeeded as thoroughly as we would like. The primtive Christians had Nero and Caligula. Modern Muslims face Bin Laden and Mahmoud.

Bahais are a decent and enlightenment-seeking group.

Compared to traditional Islam, the difference between altar vestments and a suicide vest.

Posted by: profitsbeard at June 1, 2006 10:47 PM

Infidel Pride

To what extent are Bahai Islamic? Not according to what the Islamic Republic says, but according to their own texts, from Bahaullah?

They are not actually islamic, per se, since their teachings supercede previous revelations, however they accept Islam much to the extent that Christians accept Judaism. They accept Mohammad as a "messenger" and the Koran as divine revelation.

The faith is an offshoot of Twelver Shia, with the Bab being the "Gate" to the 12th Imam. Much of his book the Bayan reads like the Koran in that it deals with conquest and the spread of the faith et al. The Bahais don't accept the Bayan as binding, rather Bahaullah and his son Abdul Baha wrote of a more syncretic faith. Islam pervades, in such things as daily prayer and even Qibla (Bahaullah's tomb).

The successor of Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi, wrote that "The mission of the American Bahá'ís is, no doubt to eventually establish the truth of Islam in the West". This quote singlehandedly turned me away from that faith.

Posted by: Jan III Sobieski at June 1, 2006 11:00 PM

Jan III-

I don't think the Bahai's version of "Islam" (more mentioned by them as psyops 'protective coloration' among a hostile majority, thrown out as a sop, saying "we're a form of Islam" to keep from being exterminated) is what Islam itself thinks of as "Islam", which the Iranian treatment of them as "infidels" shows.

I'm not converting, but Muslims would be far safer for us if they did. Bahai's don't force anyone to join them or kill anyone who leaves.

Two giant steps away from the pedophile "prophet"'s dismal dogma.

Posted by: profitsbeard at June 2, 2006 12:04 AM

Profitsbeard--'Bahai's don't force anyone to join them or kill anyone who leaves'.--Not yet anyway. Who would have thought the Christians of the middle ages--Spain, England, France--would have behaved as they did based on the words and acts of their prophet. I'd like to see the world drop anything stemming in any way from Abraham--the kids simply argue too much.

Posted by: bobalharb at June 2, 2006 12:14 AM

The Ba'hai serve as a counter-example to the hypothesis that islam will at some point evolve into a belief-system fit for human adoption.

Posted by: Hyman Roth at June 2, 2006 12:44 AM

I was a convert from Islam to Bahaism and was a Bahai for several years.

"In the Middle East, it could appeal to Muslims, seeking a way out that looked familiar, and to Jews and Christians, also seeking another way out of their own difficult situation, and perhaps hopeful that this Bahai doctrine might offer a third way to everyone." - Hugh

In the Middle East, Bahaism never made large numbers of converts from Sunni Islam or Christianity. Only Shia Muslims, Zoroastrians and Iranian Jews converted in large numbers.

Bahaism may be viewed as a Christianized version of Islam. The Bible was translated into Arabic for the first time in the 19th century, and was studied by Bahaullah, who frequently quotes from both the New and Old Testaments in his writings. Bahaullah rejected the Muslim doctrine that the text of the Bible had been corrupted. He was also heavily influenced by Sufism.

Bahaism and the Ahmadiyya sect both illustrate the difficulty of achieving any kind of Islamic reformation, as the only ways in which the founders of these religions could alter established Islamic teachings was to claim either a new revelation from God (Bahaullah) or claim the station of prophethood (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement).

Also, as noted by previous posters, Bahaism has largely failed to make a significant on the Islamic world. Converts from Sunni Islam have always been extremely few in number. The total number of Arab Bahais in the entire world numbers around only 1000. (Most of the Bahais living in Arab countries are not Arabs but are ex-pat Iranians). Most Arab countries have only a few dozen or few hundred Bahais. For example, there are only about 50 Bahais in Libya.

The Bahai Faith claims it has around 5 to 6 million adherents worldwide, but this figure is greatly exaggerated. The actual number of Bahais worldwide is probably no more than 1.5 million.

Although the Bahais eschew violence of any sort and have abrogated the doctrines of jihad and dhimma, the ultimate aim of Bahais is not so different from that of Islamists. The current leadership of the Bahai Faith seeks to replace liberal democracies with theocratic Bahai States that are ruled by Bahai Sharia law (which is derived from Bahaullah's book of laws, the Kitab-i-Aqdas). Like Islam, Bahai law prescribes punishments for premarital and extramarital sex, and homosexuality. The Bahais portray a liberal facade, but in reality are an authoritarian and totalitarian sect. It is commonplace for dissident Bahais to be excommunicated for no other reason than expressing disagreement with the Bahai leadership. Within the religion, there is a system of censorship: Bahais are not allowed to publish any work without the prior approval of Bahai vetting committees. The Bahais are also totally obsessed with gaining converts, and even have numerical targets for the numbers of new converts they hope to attract each year. In their community activities, there is actually very little focus on prayer and spiritual discipline, as almost all Bahai activities are aimed at proselytization.

Posted by: Reza at June 2, 2006 6:12 AM

"Bahaism and the Ahmadiyya sect both illustrate the difficulty of achieving any kind of Islamic reformation, as the only ways in which the founders of these religions could alter established Islamic teachings was to claim either a new revelation from God (Bahaullah) or claim the station of prophethood (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement)."
-- from a posting above

Thank you for that entire, enlightening posting.

Posted by: Hugh at June 2, 2006 8:53 AM

Going a little further with he Bahais even have their own "Caliph" in the form of the ludicrous Universal House of Justice, whose residence is atop Mt. Carmel in Haifa. There is a strong emphasis in the faith on obedience to the UHJ, but since they have no power other than over those who submit, they don't threaten global order. But who is to say that if they attain their goal of "entry by troops" (mass conversion to Bahai), that the Arab supremacism inherent in Islam won't simply transfer to the younger faith?

Posted by: Jan III Sobieski at June 2, 2006 10:47 AM

Yes, Bahais believe that the Universal House of Justice, which is their supreme governing body of nine men, is infallible in its decisions. No dissent is tolerated.

The most prominent Bahai dissident is Professor Juan Cole. He disenrolled from the Bahai organization in the 1990s after falling out with the Bahai leadership, though as far as I know he is still a believer in Bahaullah.

Posted by: Reza at June 2, 2006 12:14 PM

You get down to the bottom of it and its doctrine of being, I think it's warmed over Aristotle.

Posted by: bobalharb at June 2, 2006 12:25 PM

Although, I don't share their faith, I've met many Bahais and have found them to be exemplary in their decency, morality, and open-mindedness. Iran would be a very different place if this faith were become the majority religion instead of the Khomeinist version of Shi'ism.

Like all totalitarian ideologies, Islam produces "reformers" whose basic human decency causes them to reject the evils of the system while hoping to change the beliefs from within. In every case they are persecuted and eventually cast out of the system. We saw this with Shliapnikov’s or Dubcek’s failed attempts to reform Communism and we saw the same phenomenon in Islam with Bahaullah. Almost every group of reformist Muslims have been marginalized and persecuted by the mainstream of Islam, both Shi’a or Sunni. Some, like the Alawites or Druzes became inward looking communities who refuse to proclaim their faith to outsiders, while acting like mainstream Muslims in order to survive. These type of groups offer little hope to change Islam.

On the other hand, there are the true reformers who have separated themselves from the totalitarianism of Islam while retaining those cultural elements that can make them acceptable as a replacement for current Islam. Three groups in particular can fulfill this goal. First are the Bahais, second, the Ahmadiyyas, and third, the Ismailis. The Ismailis probably have the best potential because they are better organized and have much deeper historic roots in the Islamic world. Also, their Imam, the Aga Khan is a respected leader of truly global influence.

Beyond these three reform movements, the best hope for peace is simply for decent Muslims to be given the freedom and opportunity to abandon Islam altogether. This won’t happen if the US and other western powers “liberate” Muslim countries like Iraq and Afghanistan only to impose Islamic constitutions on them.

Posted by: Provoslavni at June 2, 2006 12:48 PM

Best person I ever knew was Bahai--she raised three adopted kids, plus her own two, got them all up and going by herself. Used to car poll with her and help out when my kid hung out with one of hers. One of the adopted is in the USAF now. Last I heard she had quit attending. Spend more time with the tomato plants. Sure deserves it, having put in her time to make a better world.

Posted by: bobalharb at June 2, 2006 12:58 PM

If what Reza says is true about Bahaism and Naseem if representative of Ahmadiyyas, then I respectfully say, "No, thank you. Not interested." to any hoping for those sects to reform of Islam.

Thank you Reza for the information, another keeper for my files.

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at June 2, 2006 1:47 PM

Thank you, Jan III, Profitsbeard and particularly Reza for that revealing window into the Bahai faith. I don't support the persecution of the Bahai in Iran, but I agree with Reza - if the Bahai are attracting converts not from Islam, but from infidel religions, like Judaism and Zoroastrianism, then it should be viewed as a Trojan horse (Bahaullah notwithstanding), since it achieves absolutely nothing in terms of "reforming" Islam - a vain hope anyway, and to the contrary, helps artificially inflate Islam's numbers, and claims to world domination, since Islam counts them as Muslims to promote its billion strong mark, while persecuting them when it doesn't suit them.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 2, 2006 2:31 PM

Rexa convincingly argues that many are too quick to praise the Bahais and the Ahmadiyyas, undoubtedly out of a desire to flail about looking for ways for people to get out of Islam. He suggests these faiths are not all that wonderful, nor that popular. Would it be unduly optimistic to see the two -- Bahaism and the Ahmadiyya sect --as offering disaffected Muslims, especially in Iran for the former, Pakistan for the latter, a way to ease out of Islam, a half-way house for those trying to leave the asylum of Islam, but not yet ready for the full break, a kind of half-way house for those trying to get out of Islam's asylum. One hopes Reza will offer his view.

Posted by: Hugh at June 2, 2006 2:59 PM

I can't comment on the Ahmadiyya sect as I have not studied it.

As other posters have pointed out, Bahais on a personal level are mostly very decent and kind people, and there is much to admire in the Bahai teachings when practised as a personal faith. The Bahais are hundreds of years ahead of Muslims in their attitude towards other religions. The main problems with the Bahai faith are not at the level of individual morality, but are the theocratic aims of the current Bahai leadership and the authoritarian nature of Bahai institutions. I also agree with Jan III that there is a latent supremacism in Bahaism, as Bahais believe that their religion supersedes all earlier religions.

For me personally it was a half-way house to a complete break with Islam, and perhaps it could be for small numbers of other individuals as well.

However, the era of large-scale conversions in Iran is long gone. I think the Bahai community in Iran has been in decline for many decades. Muslim Iranians who detest the current Islamic regime are not going to be attracted to another religion which also believes in theocracy. I have read on other boards that Iranian Muslims are more likely to return to their ancient religion of Zoroastrianism, but I don't know if this is actually occurring.

Elsewhere in the Muslim world, prospects for the Bahai faith are also very limited. The religion is banned in Indonesia, and in Malaysia only the Indians and Chinese can openly convert as ethnic Malays are deemed to be Muslim by law. In India and Bangladesh, converts are mainly from Hinduism.

"if the Bahai are attracting converts not from Islam, but from infidel religions, like Judaism and Zoroastrianism, then it should be viewed as a Trojan horse" -- Infidel Pride

There are no longer large-scale conversions from Judaism and Zoroastrianism in Iran. I was referring to the 1880s and the subsequent few decades, when I think about 10% of Iranian Zoroastrians and about 10% of Iranian Jews converted to the Bahai religion. However, you are right that anyone who converts to Bahaism is required to accept Muhammad as a prophet and the Qur'an as divinely revealed, so in a sense this boosts Islam. Bahais can be prominent apologists for Islam.

Posted by: Reza at June 2, 2006 6:54 PM

I have read on other boards that Iranian Muslims are more likely to return to their ancient religion of Zoroastrianism, but I don't know if this is actually occurring. Posted by: Reza

A former Iranian colleague of mine (himself an athiest, fwiw) once told me that in Iran, the number of people who secretly practice Zoroastrianism (since apostacy is a capital offense) is ~100,000. This contrasts with most encyclopedias, which list the Zoroastrian population at ~5,000. If my colleague was right, then Iran has more Zoroastrians than India does, and if Persians opt for this en masse, then looks like Iran at least could emerge out of a 14 century long nightmare.

Some more details about the religious alternatives to Islam in Iran are available from faithfreedom.org. I'm unable to access it right now from work, since it's classified as a "Hate" site. But one can probably find it under the link "Articles".

Anyway, thanks for your enlightening posts.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 2, 2006 7:50 PM

That's very interesting Infidel Pride.

One correction to my earlier post: in Indonesia preaching of the Bahai faith was banned in 1962, but this ban was lifted in 2000.

Posted by: Reza at June 2, 2006 8:13 PM

What is Bahai ? Does any one have any idea what it teaches? Thanks.

Posted by: vasunair at June 3, 2006 1:55 AM

If any web pages exist about the persecution of Bahais in Iran, please post links to them on Jihad Watch.

Posted by: Christian at June 3, 2006 6:55 PM