Typical for the Church. They want new souls, but they don't want to fight for them. They want to convert them, but they don't want to save them from harm. It's almost as if, like islam, the Catholic Church cares only for the afterlife. Convert them, let them be slaughtered, and pray they go to heaven.

What a joke.

Posted by: somethingaboutislam at July 17, 2006 5:27 PM

"Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald..."
-- from the article above

Non fu assunto alla porpora cardinalizia. Didn't make the expected cut for cardinal. Not the last time. And he won't the next time. His time has forever passed. Islam, or rather the improved comprehension of what Islam is all about in the Vatican, saw to that.

But what about all those others in the temporal coulisses and corridors of power, those Olivier Roys, those Zbigniew Brezinskis, those Edward Djerijians, those Dennis Rosses, still writing their idiotic Op/Eds, still being suggested as wise authorities to be consulted (Roy, the man who thinks Muslim integration is a greatand doable idea for France; Brezinski, who handed over Iran to Khomeini without a fight or even a glimmer of understanding, he and Gary Sick and Jimmy Carter, our worst, most offensive president; Djerijian, now director of the "James A. Baker Center" at Rice, spouting his MIddle Eastern nostrums and putting great store, in his NPR appearances, on something he calls "the international community" (what "international community" is that? The U.N., where the Islamic bloc, and the members of the Islamintern International who have infiltrated everywhere, from Kofi Annan's office outwards and downwards?) without the slightest apparent awareness that nothing can be discussed wtihout reference to the tenets and history of Islam; and Dennis Ross, the endlessly frequent flyer, shuttle-diplomat, negotiator of a "peace process" that passeth understanding, one who in his decades of hectic vacancy never stopped, even for a week, to study Qur'an and Sunnah, Jihad-conquest and dhimmitude. Not even for a week -- couldn't be bothered, didn't see the relevance.

It's over for them, as over as it is for Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald. Mock them. Harry them. Point out their pointlessness. Drive them from being consulted, being listened to with respect, knock the spoon against the sides of their empty talking heads so everyone can hear the hollowness. Make it embarrassing for them to appear on NPR or on some television news program, and make sure that the history of their failures -- Brzezinski and Carter abandoning the Shah and positively welcoming Khomeini, about whom they might have found out a great deal (he had published his unadorned views in Farsi -- it was not impossible to have them translated), as a "fellow man of faith" (holier-than-thou Carter's simpering words); Djerijian, former ambassador to Syria who never understood the fears, and responses, of the ruling regime of Alawites; Ross with his "peace process" that meant something only to someone who knew nothing about Al-Hudaibiyyah, but Ross, the great "Middle East" expert, fit the bill.

Don't want to hear about Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald again. Don't want to hear about Zbigniew Brzezinski's idiotic "four-point-plan" for Iraq or anything else, don't want to listen to the nasal voice of Dennis Ross.

Spare us.

Posted by: Hugh at July 17, 2006 5:47 PM

"We feel abandoned. After our conversion, we have no one to support us. We ask the Church for help: protect us, defend us."

I have always wondered where is the support for the Middle Eastern christians in the supposedly christian Western Europe. I think it is in most cases non-existent and there is no support among the so called human rights organizations.

I noticed that Amnesty International was present in the recent London demonstration condemning Guantanamo Bay prison, but I have never seen them support christian converts that are at the same time apostates of islam.

The human rights organizations that were very much in the side of the West during the Cold War have lost the plot completely when it comes to the islamic societies. Tell me why this is the case.

Posted by: Saatanan Islam at July 17, 2006 5:55 PM

Converts in these ‘high risk’ areas know full well the risk associated with conversion and take this on themselves. A church can only do so much to protect a convert but the majority knows full well that they will never be able to meet in large groups, express their faith openly without risk of personal injury, or even live as “comfortably” as they did when they knew they were in good favor with friends and family.

I know of many underground churches in Islamic states as well as communist states and they grow slowly and take casualties at times.

If a convert is concerned about safety, they should move. For those that stay, they are often willing to risk their lives for family and friends in the hopes of changing some lives for the better at least on an eternal level. Their belief is that if they can positively affect one life, it was worth the risk.

Many church groups and missionaries are part of the throngs of people trying to leave Lebanon right now which on one hand could show a lack of faith (some are weaker than others) and should not be criticized for it, but those who decide to stay for the sake of others are worthy of recognition. It does happen.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at July 17, 2006 5:59 PM

Time spent deleting or changing language deemed unacceptable is time that might have gone to other things. Those who notice changes to what they have posted, whether deletions or rephrasing, should figure out the reasons prompting such changes, and modify accordingly the future expression of views. Those who remain heedless may find entire posts eliminated, or perhaps their ability to post anything at all.

It is not much to ask. It is the absolute minimum.

Posted by: Hugh at July 17, 2006 6:20 PM

As long as these people leave islam in an islamic country, I don't see anyway of protecting them. We know the police aren't real police. They're instead, religious zealots, crooked, and basically criminals themselves. And it doesn't help each time a muslim male kills a Christian, he is said to be "insane".

Posted by: freewoman at July 17, 2006 6:49 PM

For those who want to do more than just complain, I would suggest making donations to those church organizations that are on the scene and already trying to help.(I am a regular donor already myself).

The Catholic Near East Welfare Association: http://www.cnewa.org

Also, Aid to the Church in Need, and The Society for the Propagation of the Faith, and others, can be helped too.

Posted by: elcordobes at July 17, 2006 6:51 PM

I have to applaud these brave souls. Christianity is the West is a joke. I bet that if you gave most Western Christians a choice between converting to Islam or being killed, having their property taken or being thrown in jail, they would convert to Islam very quickly.

Robert,
On another note, I realize that this is a jihad watch page, but maybe you would consider adding a link section to various organizations that help people like these (victims or potential victims of jihad)?

Posted by: non-redneck at July 17, 2006 8:09 PM

non-redneck:

Check out the links on the JW page for ways to help if you have the means. Email the various sites for more information.

Sorry, I can't think of any non-redneck jokes right now.

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at July 17, 2006 8:42 PM

Somehwat related Diversity Is Strength! It’s Also…Lebanonization

Posted by: Nariz at July 17, 2006 9:05 PM

Hugh, we still hear from Dennis Ross on FOX, but he seems a shell of his former sefl, spouting ad nauseum like a robot. His facial expression, somber, empty, says it all: he knows his moment has passed. His ilk reminds me of the non-communists socialists like Kerensky. He talks in soft, soothing sounds, saying nothing, but Iran is behind this.

I found a recent Bob Baer tv appearance instructive. He is no friend of Israel. He calls Nasrallah an Iranian asset, or, at best, an asset. He also states that Nasrallah has US blood on his hands(directly)from operations in the '80's. He, Baer, should know. He was single-focused on the US embassy attack in the '80's, to the utter disinterest of the US government.

I also found a recent appearnce, more of a rant, by Major Bob Bevalaqua(spelling?). He attacked Israel for hitting the airports and roads to Syria, but agreed that a modified attack on Hizbullah was justified. He found it outrageous that all this fuss was caused by the kidnapping of a few IDF soldiers. He states the US would never do this . . . never cause such a fuss over a few soldiers . . . that this is not standard military response. Really? Well, he could be right, but I see no problem on this planet for quite a fuss for any US soldier kidnapped. Shouldn't we move heavan and earth for any kidnapping like that occured in Iraq recently. Aside from a nuclear strike, I'm hard pressed to think of a single response that would not be justified. Pathetic.

Posted by: biorabbi at July 17, 2006 9:13 PM

non-redneck,

Let's be careful with the general statement about Christianity in the West being a "joke". Many, many Christians from the West infiltrate places like China, North Africa, Indonesia (Destruction clean-up), Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. Even places like Sudan and Somolia and Yemen. Remember the group of American Christians arrested in Taliban controlled Afghanistan just prior to the invasion? They went knowing they faced death and almost met that fate. On my military deployments, I've always been amazed at the places Western Christians take the Gospel at risk of life and limb.

Our mainstream media self-loaths the West and Christianity and therefore ignores the noble side of contemporary Christianity. Reporters are generally weak and faithless and therefore want to believe all other Westerners and Christians are the same. This colors their reporting of Christians. Christians are always the hedonist and hypocrits. When Christians like the Afghan convert to Christianity take a courageous stand the media does nothing to highlight that Christian courage. The Western media actually hammered that man for a few personal issues having nothing to do with his faith in Jesus Christ.

I am from the South, and many of my fellow Christians truly live the Christian life. They choose not to drink. They keep sex within marriage. They live the commands of God in the Bible and dedicate themselves to Jesus Christ above all else (including their lives). They go through verbal and societal persecution in attempts to live the Christian life. Others mock them in higher education. They face the loss of jobs and status for speaking up for Christianity. They do all of this without fanfare and this is a sacrifice and hardship. Words can cut like swords. Many of the Christians I know from throughout the world would also give their lives in following the example of Jesus Christ.

All of this is completely ignored by so many who will not see the truth. Over 600,000 Christians a year are killed for the faith. Voice of the Martyrs (based in the United States) risks life and limb to tell the story. However, our mainstream news and others do all they can to put down Christianity.

Those who are living under Christian discipline will stand out as the West becomes more decadent. At some point, many will finally come to respect Christianity for its quiet and steady courage and faith. With God's grace, we will see a renewed Christianity in the West. Frankly, the Christian, Biblical discipline is what the West requires in the fight against Islam.

This doesn't mean government imposed Christianity. This means a general cultural shift back to the ideas of absolute moral truth. I believe the general turn from Christianity has helped restart the sleeping Jihad. Muslims SAW strength in the West when the West was imbued with Christian moral discipline. Muslims now SEE weakness in the turn from Christianity: Negative birthrates, broken families, drugs, crime, etc. they now argue Western values are inferior to Sharia Law.

Random thoughts. However, not ALL Christians in the West are a "Joke" when it comes to faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by: hello123 at July 17, 2006 9:25 PM

"His [Dennis Ross's]ilk reminds me of the non-communists socialists like Kerensky."
-- from a posting above

This is unfair to Kerensky, Simbirsk's favorite son (consider the obvious alternative). Dennis Ross is uncultivated. Kerensky wasn't. And to dismissively describe him as a "socialist" does not do him justice. And what has Dennis Ross ever done comparable to what Kerensky did during the Beilis blood-libel trial? Kerensky was no more a fool than any of the Kadety or Left S.R.s. They deserved to win. They underestimated both the ruthlessness of their Bolshevik enemies, and the stupidity of the supporters of the Czar.

You might have enjoyed meeting Kerensky at, say, the Vermont dacha of Professor Karpovich. You could hardly stand to spend an evening talking to Dennis Ross anywhere.

Posted by: Hugh at July 17, 2006 9:59 PM

hello123,

I am familar with Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) and have supported their organization in the past, but stopped after they revealed some of how they actually work. In one newsletter the director (Tom White) was discussing with a principal about how this principal could distribute Bibles in a public school (this was in an edition sometime this year). That is something that should not done by administrators (would you like it if they gave out copies of the Koran?). This reason is the straw that broke the camel's back for me. The US constitution provides separation of church and state for a reason. (otherwise you end up like Islam).

They have also refered to the West Bank as "Palestine" in their newsletter and other publications. (This is usually done by Muslims to give the false impression that the West Bank is a country under Israeli Occupation). I wrote to them about why they did this and the response that I got from them gave me the impression that VOM considers the West Bank an entity separate from Israel. They were very vague and tried to avoid directly answering my question. That is cause for suspicion.

They also advertised on www.newsmax.com, which is way too messed up, way too right wing, and contains too many scam advertisements.

So accordingly, I no longer trust Voice of the Martyrs. Which is a shame, because I do get matching grants at my work to charities up to a certain dollar amount. I used it this year for VOM. But since becoming distrustful of them, I will not do the same next year.

Posted by: non-redneck at July 17, 2006 11:28 PM

Non-redneck wrote: " The US constitution provides separation of church and state for a reason. (otherwise you end up like Islam)."

Not quite non-redneck.

You are a secular utopian.

Remember........there has never been a society in the world that was ever completely secular.

Nor will there ever be as far as I am concerned.

Communism was not completely successful in crushing religious practice.

People by nature do gravitate towards spirituality because humans are spiritual beings, not just fleshly beings.

We are ordered this way because God made us to seek after Him.

Furthermore, the founders of the American constitution were NOT trying to create a completely secular society.

I have some good quotes to share with you that may surprise you.

" It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almight God, to obey His will, to be grateful for his benefits, and to humbly implore His protection and favor."
George Washington
First President of the U.S.;
Signer of the the Constitution

" We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence;
One of Two Signers of the Bill of Rights

" Before any man can be considered as a memeber of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."
James Madison
Signer of the Constitution

" And can the liberties be though secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."
Thomas Jefferson
Signer and Principal author of the Declaration of Independence

Posted by: Johnathan at July 18, 2006 12:51 AM

John Howard, PM of Australia, allowed in some Somalis on the basis that they had converted from Islam to christianity and he was aware of the danger that apostates from Islam were exposed to.

Maybe they would have more joy in contacting John Howard than with the christian church which they had converted to.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 18, 2006 12:57 AM

biorabbi - It remains a blotch on this administration that NO ONE said a damn thing about those two soldiers. Unforgivable.

Israel is once again (not since '67) acting like it is a nation and wants to survive. They need to wipe out Hezbollah and Hamas. By wipe out I mean nothing left of them as fighting forces. Totally.

That major is nuts. Not a Marine, I am sure, and he would be out of my army unit if I was his boss.

Posted by: Jimmy Bones at July 18, 2006 1:11 AM

"Some people deludedly and falsely suppose that peace with God can come by violence against others, by the brutal search for domination or exploitation or by the anihilisation of others. We have seen both Muslim and Christian extremists conducting such actions and we can only say that they have not understood what it is to search for peace with God. Here in this country you have immense opportunity of showing how that search for peace with God can bring peace with each other. Here in this country you have a great opportunity for showing how communities together can identify what is good for all not just for one group or another."

This was Rowan Williams, the Archbushop of Canterbury, speaking in Khartoum, of all places, in Feruary of this year. He's right. I've seen Christian extremists conducting such actions - in history books concerning times centuries ago. With his washy washy belief in inter-faith dialogue ( dawa, taqqiya and kitman paradise for the Muslims concerned) this guy makes Neville Chamerlain look like a fire eater. I realise that ageing can bring on a testosterone deficiency, but I suspect that even earlier in life he would not have been man enough to stand up for persecuted Christians in Muslim countries.

Posted by: wallyUK at July 18, 2006 7:15 AM

The Catholic Church seems to be taking the same stance as it did when the Nazis tried to purge the Jews from the face of the Earth. I trust nothing will come from them except PC talk even as their own are being killed. Their concern is keeping their own crumbling political status and not professing righteousness. Wouldn't want a thousand muslims protesting at the doors of the Vatican now, would you?
Are they still espousing that they are "the one true church" like they tried to indoctrinate into me when I was a boy? Sounds similar to Islamic totalitarianism.
If the pope had any courage he would codemn the atrocities in the name of Islam world wide and see what backbone his flock has in providing support for its persecuted brothers and sisiters.
Jesus certainly had no problem standing up for what was right even if his life was endangered.

Posted by: Briars at July 18, 2006 7:22 AM

Before you criticize the Roman Catholic Church for being cowardly, I would encourage you to keep your focus on this fact:

" A few days later, on September 28, John Paul II published the list of the new cardinals. Fitzgerald, who was thought would surely get the red hat, was not there. "

If Fitzgerald did get the red hat, then there would be a more valid statement to make about how the hierarchy in Rome is turning into dhimmis.

But he was not brought up to cardinal status.

The fact that Fitgerald said " But on can be Italian and Muslim at the same time " does NOT necessarily mean that Rome has filled its ranks with nutty imposters.

Posted by: Johnathan at July 18, 2006 9:46 AM

To Briars and others: The "Catholic Church" is not one man or a mere group of Cardinals in the Vatican, any more than the United States is George Bush or the New York Times editorial board. There is a culture war raging within the Catholic Church - my church -- and has been for over 40+ years. There are moral equivacators, cultural and moral relativists, and a host of PC others in power misappropriating their offices and pretending to speak traditional doctrine when it is anything but that they preach.

Pope Benny 16 is NOT JPII in his attitudes toward Islam or his take on Koran kissing and abject apologies for Crusaders of old. [The great Fallaci was approximately the 3rd person to whom he granted a private audience; the contents of which neither he nor she have ever divulged. But I doubt that it was: "Zitta tu." i.e, "shut up" that he said to Fallaci.]

He is cleaning house in the Curia but the entrenched PC, multiculti, neo-Marxist elites within the Vatican hierarchy is a scum encrusted by 40+ years in power. They are as suicidal as the Euro elites of Brussels. Ever seen a shower stall encrusted by 40 days build up of soap and hard water? It takes time to scrape it clean. Every time I am about to lose heart, I hear of another Red Hat's personnel change, transfer, retirement, or funeral. Slowly, slowly the Barque of Peter may yet be brought right to sail on and stay the course, as it did at Lepanto and Vienna.

As for the gratuitous swipe at Pius XII: Golda Mier, Einstein, Ben Gurion and even the rabbi's of Holland did not agree. It was the latter who asked Pope Pius to curtail his outspoken criticism of Hitler as the enraged Nazi's arrested more and more Jews, Jewish converts to Christianity and Catholic clergy as retribution for each of Pius' speeches.

Posted by: bevc at July 18, 2006 12:52 PM

bevc makes some important points.

It should be noted that when the Dutch bishops under Nazi occupation, publicly denounced the deportation of Jews, the Nazis made a quick and public point of raiding all the Catholic churches and monasteries, and deporting those who were converts from Judaism, or had Jewish ancestry. The famous and now Blessed St. Edith Stein was among them. The Nazis made their point, and the church took a less public approach. There were undergrounds set up for hiding and transporting Jews within Catholic institutions. See the movie "The Scarlet and the Black", and others.

Israelis such as the writer Pinchas Lapide have documented this well. Oscar Shindler in the movie "Shindler's List" is an example of what Catholics did outside Church institutions as well.

Lapide estimates more than half a million Jews were saved quietly by the Catholic Church.

I have no doubt that undergrounds are at work now in Muslim countries. The convert from Afghanistan, of recent note, somehow got out of that country and received sanctuary and support from the Church in Italy.

As Oscar Schindler, and John Paul II, said in regard to saving the Jews from the holocaust "we should have done more". I think a lot more has to be done for Muslims who convert, though much of that would have to be done quietly.

Posted by: elcordobes at July 18, 2006 3:34 PM

The Catholic Church seems to be taking the same stance as it did when the Nazis tried to purge the Jews from the face of the Earth. I trust nothing will come from them except PC talk even as their own are being killed. Their concern is keeping their own crumbling political status and not professing righteousness. Wouldn't want a thousand muslims protesting at the doors of the Vatican now, would you?

I have been reading a lot of anti-Catholic rhetoric on the threads lately, but you can pat yourself on the back as this is quite frankly one of the cheapest shots yet against the Church.

You spew out the same, tiresome "Bob Jones" anti-Catholicism garbage that has been in circulation for years. It’s the same stuff constantly being repeated. Like that present nobody wants that’s "re-gifted" year after year to someone else....

Posted by: adobe at July 18, 2006 4:05 PM

Christians in muslim nations are the most persecuted people earth. No other community has been subject to so much slaughter and death, as Christians. Just add up the numbers in just a couple of cases - the Biafra genocide, the genocide in Sudan. Both occurred in the era of modern communications, so an excuse of ignorance does not hold water. The reason they were ignored by the West? I have no idea - a kind of post colonial guilt? Whatever.

Even now we ignore the persecution of Christians in muslim nations. They are being sacrificed on the altar of political correctness, as we can NOT name the enemy.

Posted by: DP111 at July 18, 2006 6:43 PM

PS

The Barnabus fund does indeed care for the persecuted Church. They are short of cash, unlike the mega-charities with mega-salaries for their executives.

http://www.barnabasfund.org/

Posted by: DP111 at July 18, 2006 6:48 PM

adobe:

Thanks for being blunt. The anti-catholic "christians", are ignorant of history. Many haven't heard of the Battle of Lepanto and how the Pope and the Catholic countries saved Europe from the Muslim fleet - while the gaggle of protestant sects were busy vilifying the popes as the antichrist, etc..

Seems they forget how Catholic kings also rescued Western Civilization by stopping the Turks at Vienna. And how 1492 saw the final liberation of the Iberian Peninsula from the Moors, by their Catholic majesties Ferdinand and Isabella.

Have they forgotten the Crusades, too?

The present pope has spoken openly about NOT admitting Turkey into the European Union.

Though there might be some perception that the Catholic Church, currently, is being overly cautious and mute about the Muslim jihad, and the rising clash of civilizations, it should be recognized that the Catholic Church, alone, just about equals the muslims in numbers today, and that it has historically been Catholic leaders, both church and secular, who have been able to confront the agressons of Islam and rally Western Civilization to defend itself, and roll back the muslim invasions.

Those "christians" who are sniping at the Catholic Church are not helping the cause of our civilzation, but helping the muslim jihad.

Posted by: elcordobes at July 18, 2006 7:54 PM

Adobe and Elcordobes:

Let's get one thing straight. I did not post to Catholic bash. I was taught in Catholic schools for 9 years a long time ago and indoctrinated in the Catholic faith whereby I came upon the teachings of Jesus who has guided me through my life.

As far as the Catholic Church, I have no use for it and I don't have a clue who Bob Jones is nor do I give a rats ass. What I am saying is to indoctribate six year old with the idealogy that, we are the one true church, and Jews, Protestants, Hindus, Buddhists are not going to get to heaven unless they convert is similar to the ideaology of Muslim Supremists . I also think this was behind Pope Pius xii vision of the Jews that let him do nothing while the Nazi's executed them.

Adobe: Show me Pius XII facing the holy sea codemning the atrocities of the Nazis and Fascists and telling all Catholics, millions of them in Germany and Italy, that participation in this type of genocide would result in immediate ex communication. Show me Pius XII standing up in Mussolini's back yard and offering himself as the Lamb of God. Don't you think a lot of Nazi zombies would have woken up if Mussolini or Hitler tried to put the Pope away or taken over the Vatican? I can show you pictures of cardinals and bishops in a sea of heil Hitlers. Were they scared or stupid about what was going on?

I was confirmed "a soldier of Christ". If Benedict goes out on the balcony and condemns the
the crimes against humanity fostered by the Islamists throughout the world, then I will take my sword and stand behind my Pope. But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.

Posted by: Briars at July 18, 2006 11:05 PM

Briars wrote: "What I am saying is to indoctribate six year old with the idealogy that, we are the one true church, and Jews, Protestants, Hindus, Buddhists are not going to get to heaven unless they convert is similar to the ideaology of Muslim Supremists."

The church doesn't teach who does not teach who does and doesn't go to heaven. It stays quiet about this issue. The Catholic Church claims rightly that it possesses the fullness of truth.

Catholic teaching also promotes the notion that by being a good Catholic one can be saved and go to heaven. Catholic teaching doesn't say everyone who is not Catholic is damned- as you WRONGLY stated in your post.

I don't trust your posts Briar. You don't come close to knowing the true Catholic faith.

Here is a reliable link for you to read about the holocaust:
http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/PiusXII/

Posted by: Johnathan at July 19, 2006 1:59 AM

Jonathan:

I suggest you go back and read your Catechism. However, you are partly correct that not all are damned who are not Catholics unless they have "The desire" to become Catholics.

From the Baltimore Catechism:166. Are all obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved?
All are obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved.
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." (John 14:6)

167. What do we mean when we say, "Outside the Church there is no salvation?"
When we say, "Outside the Church there is no salvation," we mean that Christ made the Catholic Church a necessary means of salvation and commanded all to enter it, so that a person must be connected with the Church in some way to be saved.

168. How can persons who are not members of the Catholic Church be saved?
Persons who are not members of the Catholic Church can be saved if, through no fault of their own, they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they love God and try to do His will, for in this way they are connected with the Church by desire.

Posted by: Briars at July 19, 2006 8:06 AM

Why is history being repeated? Islam has exploited this pattern of conquest on the coat-tails of Christianity for all of their existence. They are socio-economic parasites as well as arab supremacists.

-Animist or agnostic culture
-Christianity sets up shop via missionary work etc.
-Christianity grows
-Christianity flourishes
-Christian culture and God taken for granted
-Christianity attacked by moral relativists (peace greater than goodness)
-Christian establishment caves in to the moral relativists
-Christian establishment saddled w/ external moral relativist regulations and is unable to defend itself
===========================================
-Christian establishment becomes vulnerable to attack by hostile external opportunistic ideologies at various geographical locations
-Christian establishment usurped by political bodies (~1930 by the nazis, ~2000 by the muslims)
-Christian activity dissolves
-Christian establishment dissolves
-The devil's minions in whatever form rule.

Why is history being repeated?

Racing to Save a Nazi Church
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/252793.htm

Thank God for Moral Violence
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23224

Posted by: squire at July 19, 2006 10:59 AM

Let's get one thing straight. I did not post to Catholic bash.

Really, you could have fooled me, I guess you just can't help yourself...

I don't have a clue who Bob Jones is

Funny, you spew out the same hatred of the Church he does.

I am sorry to hear you are a former Catholic, its obvious you don't understand your former faith. Like others, you pick and choose various writings out of context and form an entire opinion based off of it.

I am not sure you are sincere in your criticism of the Church as your posts are filled with venom and hatred. Here are additional links with the hope that you will take the time to become more informed. I also hope you check the previous links I posted.

A wealth of Knowledge and Documentation:

http://www.ewtn.com/new_library/fileindexes.htm

Catechism of the Catholic Church

http://www.getfed.com/displayproduct.cfm?JP=1001017

Catholicism and Fundamentalism

http://www.getfed.com/displayproduct.cfm?JP=1001013

Rome Sweet Home
http://www.getfed.com/displayproduct.cfm?JP=1001011

Posted by: adobe at July 19, 2006 11:55 AM

Gorniak wrote:

Also, if muslim converts are helped, why also buddist converts shouldn't be helped?
..........

Probably because people converting from Buddhism to Chistianity are not harrassed, arrested or killed for apostasy.

It is appalling that anyone is so treated for peacefully acting their concience. If Catholics or Baptists were murdering former Christian Muslims or Scientologists in Western countries, I'm sure there would be a great outcry (as there should be in this case also).

Posted by: gravenimage at July 20, 2006 1:40 AM

hello123,

Thank-you for your comments about the real Christian community in the west. True the Christian community is struggling to stand true to faith in a west that has gone decadent. But also at the same time, we hold fast to the faith that is the key to bring the west back to greatness. God Bless you.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at July 21, 2006 10:43 AM