And people had the gall to complain about Apartheid

Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 7, 2006 12:32 PM

Had he been an Ahmadi - say, Naseem -- would the result have been different? And was this merely a putting into practice the concept of "najis" to be found expressed in the beating to death of Jews in Iranian villages if they violated the prohibition on their being out in the rain (lest a drop, having touched their unclean skin, then fall on, and thereby, sully, the pure skin of a pure Muslim), or in Iraq, where everyone's favorite ayatollah, Sistani, refuses to meet with an "unclean Infidel" but did manage to meet Fouad Ajami, who was most impressed.

Posted by: Hugh at August 7, 2006 12:48 PM

It sounds like the Muslim version of Jim Crow laws are alive and well and being enforced in Pakistan, by the common Muslim citizen, as well as those in authority. And how much aid does the US taxpayer fork over to that country, our partner in the "war on terror" on an annual basis?

Posted by: Mary Rose at August 7, 2006 1:09 PM

Funny how they could think that a Christian could contaminate a muslim glass with filth. Ironic. Take a typical Christian country like Canada, and a muslim country like Pakistan, and tell me which is filthier.

Talk about projection.

As a young man I worked at the airport unloading plane and cleaning cabins. Nobody ever wanted to do PIA, the Pakistani national airline, because of how disgusting it was. The cabin of the plane was just so filthy you could never really make it look clean. The human filth was embedded into the fabric and plastics. The bagagge hold actually had cockroaches scurrying about. Imagine how filthy a country must be when even its 747s come with their own cockroaches. No other plane that came to Toronto on a regular basis was as bad as that. Filth like you wouldn't believe.

And they have the nerve to think they, as muslims, are clean, and WE, Christians, the West, Jews, infidels, will contaminate THEM?

Posted by: August22 at August 7, 2006 1:16 PM

When I had read this article, I thought I was brought back to an America before the Civil Rights era when there was seperate drinking fountains for blacks and whites.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 7, 2006 1:19 PM

When I had read this article, I thought I was brought back to an America before the Civil Rights era when there was seperate drinking fountains for blacks and whites.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at August 7, 2006 1:19 PM

Ah, isn't it wonderful that there are still countries in this world where minorities are taught their rightful place? (sarcasm)

Posted by: Kepha at August 7, 2006 1:24 PM

for those unfamiliar with the reference to "najis"

According to the Shafi'i school of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence, as systematised by al-Nawawi in his book Minhadj, the following things are "najis":

wine and other spirituous drinks,
dogs,
swine,
dead animals that were not ritually slaughtered,
blood,
excrements,
and milk of animals whose meat Muslims are not allowed to eat.

Spirituous drinks are not impure according to the Hanafi school, while living swine are not impure according to the Malikis.[1]

To the list of impure things enumerated by al-Nawawi, Shi’a jurists traditionally add dead bodies and non-Muslims

In essense, according to the the followers of the RoP - in the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful,

excrements = nonmuslims

And there is not a believing Muslim who does not accept that Muhammad is the Perfect Man, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, the Model for All Muslims For All Time.

SPIT

Posted by: miira at August 7, 2006 1:27 PM

Move along, nothing to see here. Just a Tiny Minority of Extremists. This could easily happen in any Western nation. Also: the Crusades.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at August 7, 2006 1:55 PM

Hey Naseem,

Where's your spin on this one? This is your home town, isn't it? Did you know the guy? Did you see it happen? Did you help them beat him? Did you "regret his bloodshed"?

While we're waiting for you to reply, I'll continue to read up on the Ahmadi faith you want us to join. You know from what I've read so far, your marvelous Mizra Ghulum Ahmad thinks less of Christianity than your regular Muslim. Jesus died (sans crucifixion and ascension) after a less than illustrious prophethood, and is buried in Srinagar, India, was it? From AnsweringIslam:

"One Ahmadiyya writer, following in the steps of his founder, once said "Jesus excelled in nothing except deception and fraud. It is a pity that the ignorant Christians believe such a person to be divine" (quoted in Maududi, The Qadiani Problem, p.51)."

http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol1/9c.html

Enjoy your da'wa.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 7, 2006 2:30 PM

Naturally, this perfect Muslim analog to Apartheid will get the same level of world outrage and condemnation that South Africa faced.

Wait--does that make me a racist, or an Islamophobe?

Posted by: Know Your Enemy at August 7, 2006 2:31 PM

You don't get it, Know Your Enemy. The Muslims are the victims, here. The trauma of the Crusades and modern Western decadence made the Muslims so alienated from the universe that they had no choice but to release their pent up rage, frustration and grief through physical violence againts a Christian. They can't help it, they're just Muslims.

I think Western leaders should issue an apology on behalf of the Christian man who got beaten.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at August 7, 2006 2:35 PM

Don't you know they would riot in the streets if we did that to muslims here? Oh, the whining and crying. Yes, they are filthy people. I've cleaned homes after they would move and the grease, dirt and the smell of curry, plus the walls would be discolored from the curry. AWFUL!

Posted by: freewoman at August 7, 2006 2:51 PM

Concerned Citizen

It's funny - I visited Srinagar in 1987, and no-one there took us to the tomb of Christ. Granted, none of the Mohammedans there were Ahmadiyas, but surely, they'd have been only too happy to pull a scam over people, especially those too ignorant to know that Christ died in Jerusalem.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 7, 2006 3:17 PM

Infidel Pride,

I hope the following links help you plan your next trip.

The purported tomb of Jesus in Srinagar

http://belovedkashmir.wordpress.com/2006/07/03/the-purported-tomb-of-jesus-in-srinagar-2/#more-7

Mystery of the Martyr's Tomb: Part One

http://travel.news.yahoo.com/b/rba_daily/rba_daily4336;_ylt=AgASc7un6bIUZe7bFPjCEI6hO84F;_ylu=X3oDMTBjamtzcG1mBHNlYwNoei1zdG9yeQ--

Gee, I wonder what happened to the Ahmadis there? Same thing that happened to the Christian in Pak?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 7, 2006 3:40 PM

And they are so outraged when someone goes Paki bashing. Over here it's just a few who do that, over there it's the whole lot of em.

Posted by: IceDragon at August 7, 2006 4:44 PM

Concerned Citizen

I'm not planning to go there again. This was in 1987, before that 'insurgency' started. Also, in the spirit of blame your parents, I'd say it was my parent's idea: I hated the idea of putting tourist money in the hands of Mohammedans.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 7, 2006 5:35 PM

Assalamau-Laikum all,

You see this christian ...wrong place ...wrong time...wrong religion.

The muslim obviously had the red mist around him..and that drink of water proved to be extremely expensive for the christian.

Muslims are brought up from an early age to know that they are the chosen childrens of God...the one true God called Allah...that all humans are born as muslims and their parents pollute them to other religions...I mean how ungrateful.

Muslims think that they are natrually superior by birth...so how dare some kafur pollute their already dirty stinking water glass.

Muslims are further emboldened by the foolish hudood laws so ably forced upon the minorities
by that lund Zia Ul-Haz.

Other than muslims, who else can accept this sort of outlandish behaviour...well I'll tell you.

1) The hindu bhramin will not dare to share drinking water with harigens or deletes. Deletes can be christian too.

2) The queen of England will always wear white elbow length gloves to avoid human skin contact that may be contaigious or effect "the monarchy".

As to JC being buried in Sri-Nagar....
I think it is a Jewish spread conspiricy...throughout history they want to be the centre of attention.

Posted by: Naseem at August 7, 2006 5:36 PM

I don’t understand this at all. I drank water from a mosque in Bosnia almost once a week and never had a problem. Hmmm come to think of it, the big friggen rifle and the Joes watching my back might have tamed them down a bit. I guess it was the Christens fault, no rifle no water.

Posted by: Ronin at August 7, 2006 5:57 PM

I think that it's about time that we treat Islamic countries in the same way that we treated South Africa in the apartheid era.

Posted by: Voltaire at August 7, 2006 5:57 PM

Concerned Citizen

Naseem's last statement tells me you are a member of a Jewish conspiracy. Please confirm, and explain to me how Srinagar being the burial of Christ would make Jews the center of attention ;->

Naseemah, I thought that Muslims don't have the evil caste system that Hindus do - at least, that's what they always say. So how's it still there in Pakistan (and Bangladesh)? In India, such a thing by a bhramin (sic) is illegal, and punishable by law. (And they can't even dominate by mob rule, since they are a minority of the overall Hindu population.) And while such an act is undoubtedly despicable, in the case of Brahmins, if one's glass was 'polluted' by a Harigen(sic) or delete(sic) drinking from it, it would not be followed by a lynching. It would be followed by breaking the glass: despicable behavior on its own, but nowhere close to the inhuman way in which Nasir Ashraf was treated.

Within the Ahmadis, what caste are you?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 7, 2006 5:57 PM

Right after 9/11 I heard a suggestion being passed around that could vastly improve airline security. Equip every airplane with a miniature pot-bellied pig. That way the Martyrs would not be able to blow themselves up, as their blood would be mixed with swine-blood. Hence, no perpetual houri sex and boys-like-pearls, but only the infinite torments of hell.
Incidentally, I have made it a practice to eat at least a little pork every day.
By the way, do our elected leaders know that events like this occur? Amongst our "allies?"

Posted by: Sansantiago at August 7, 2006 5:59 PM

Wonder if this will be reported on the alphabet channels? (ABC, NBC, SEE-BS)
/Naw, silly me. Christians are never on the receiving end of injustice. Muslims are always the victims. After all, they are the LLL's "little brown people".

Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 7, 2006 6:13 PM

Yes, Infidel Pride, you dastardly villain, you have exposed me!

More Zionist conspiracy info:

"From Afghanistan Jesus went to Kashmir, where some Israelite tribes had also settled. He made this place his home and here he died. His tomb has been traced and found in Khanyar Street, Srinagar. "

From the Preface, page 1, Jesus in India, Being an account of Jesus' escape from death on the cross and of his journey to India,
by Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah and Mahdi
Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam

ref: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

Other info
http://www.aaiil.org/uk/newsletters/2001/1001ukbulletin.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahore_Ahmadiyya_Movement

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 7, 2006 6:13 PM

Quite a far cry from: "When I was thirsty, you gave me drink" Then again, the concept of unconditional respect,much less love, FOR ALL is considered anathema by such cockroaches. Their concept of "clean" certainly never jibes biologically. The mouths of dogs have us all beat on that count.

Posted by: We need G.C. Scott at August 7, 2006 6:18 PM

"As to JC being buried in Sri-Nagar....
I think it is a Jewish spread conspiricy...throughout history they want to be the centre of attention."

Well, that's a harder one, Infidel Pride. Let's see, maybe since Ahmad wanted to be the Messiah, and the Messiah was Jewish, and we know all the Jews were really Muslim anyway, that would make Ahmad Jewish, and he wanted to be the Messiah, who would be the center of attention.

By the way, Naseem, do you get to drink out of the glass? (Being an Ahmadi, considered by Paks to be a heretic?)

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 7, 2006 6:19 PM

Concerned Citizen

I also wonder whether there's something in the water that Naseem is drinking from. As we all know, alcohol is forbidden in Islam, so they'd never drink that.

OTOH, the Quran is less specific about narcotics.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 7, 2006 6:37 PM

Remember how, in the days - and even weeks - immediately following 9/11, Christians (in particular, having not had as much exposure to the ROP) were ignorant enough to believe the lie that "Islam meant peace"? Remember?

Posted by: Daisytoo at August 7, 2006 6:56 PM

CHRISTIANS ARE "DISPOSABLE" IN IRAQ

On July 18, 2006, al-Iraqiya broadcasted interview with Dr. Mahmoud al-Mashhadanian about the subject of raping and killing of women by the Iraqi terrorist. After addressing the kidnapping of his own sister; 'Thayer al-Mashhadani' and her guards, the Speaker of the Iraqi National Assembly (Parliament) said: "Why kidnap this Muslim woman, instead of Tayseer; why not kidnap Margaret or Jwan?" The latter are Christian names, the implication being that the terrorists should have kidnapped, raped and killed Christian women instead of his sister.

Evidently the Speaker of the Iraqi National Assembly (Parliament) believes that Christians are less human than the Muslims therefore he sees nothing wrong with kidnapping, raping and killing of their woman. While he is obviously mourning for his sister he does not think that the suffering of the Christians matter. If this is the mentality of a prominent Iraqi political leader, who is an educated Muslim, what can one expect from the uneducated and ignorant masses who harbor similar hatred towards none Muslims.

http://uppompeii.blogspot.com/

http://www.christiansofiraq.com/letthemrape.html

When the Coalition arrived in Iraq it was forgivable for Christians in that country to think, that they would have an authority that would look kindly on them. They offered their services readily, but little did they know that their being Christians, made them untouchables in the eyes of the Coalition. So despicable has our PCness become that it offered up Iraqi Christians on the altar of PCness.

So now we hear that Iraqi Christians who have fled to Syria, hate the US. Well who would have guessed.

I read in the Barnabus Fund newsletter that Syria is allowing Iraqi Christians, numbering in the tens of thousands, to build churches - this is a novelty anywhere in the Muslim world, even for Christians who are citizens, leave alone refugees.

Gets difficult each passing day when one does not truthfully name the enemy.

Posted by: DP111 at August 7, 2006 7:16 PM

Naseem--and others talking about the AHmadis:

I read this on "Answering Islam", and would appreciate comment:

****No prophet should be without the ability to prophesy future events and Ghulam Ahmad, true to his assumed vocation, produced a wealth of such prophecies. The mark of a true prophet, however, is the fulfilment of his prophecies (Deuteronomy 18.22) and it is here that the "promised Messiah" proved himself to be a pretender for so many of his bold predictions failed to come to pass. We shall consider just a small selection of the prophecies of the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement and the explanations given to explain away their non-fulfilment.

The first concerns an elderly Muslim convert to Christianity, one Abdullah Athim, who held a series of debates with the Mirza over a period of twelve days. As these became increasingly acrimonious Ghulam Ahmad prophesied that whichever of the two of them was speaking lies would die within fifteen months and be cast into hell. This was a very subtle prediction as the Christian leader was already sixty-five years old, of poor health, and two hot summers were yet to pass before this period expired. (There appears to be little doubt that the period was shrewdly calculated and there was a strong possibility that the prophecy would be naturally fulfilled). Unfortunately for the Mirza, however, Athim proved to be in better health than he had been for a long time when the prophesied period expired. A few days thereafter a Muslim writer, whose letter is quoted in the source here referred to, said:

Was this prophecy fulfilled according to Mirza Sahib's description? No - never. Abdullah Authom is still safe and sound and he has not been punished by death to be flung into hell. I do not think it is possible to make a different interpretation of this prophecy than what it clearly means to be. (Durrani, Fallacy of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, p.36).
The Mirza's son, however, laboured to prove that this prophecy had indeed been fulfilled, even though Athim continued to live on for a long time after he was expected to die. Bashir ud-Din gave these explanations:

He suffered great mental anguish, a sort of hell. ... These hallucinations constituted the mental hell into which Atham had fallen. It was the result of remorse, of feelings of guilt over his support of Christianity and hostility to Islam. ... Atham began to have doubts about Jesus' divinity. The truth of Islam began to dawn upon his mind. On his retreat God completed the second step of this part of the prophecy. Atham was saved from death even though fear and guilt had driven him very near it. He was saved because he had retreated. (Ahmad, Invitation to Ahmadiyyah, p.250).
The author gives no evidence in favour of the claim that the Christian leader began to doubt the divinity of Jesus - a claim typical of many made by the Mirza and his followers over the years which were patently untrue and conjured up to suit the Ahmadiyya cause. In any event one must surely be extremely gullible to entertain suggestions that the hell was "a sort of hell" or a "mental hell" and that God had spared the Christian leader because he allegedly no longer wrote critically against Islam!

When Jesus said he would rise from the dead on the third day, it happened just as he had said. When he predicted that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and would be destroyed with its Temple, it happened just as he said. His prophecies were fulfilled exactly as he made them. Not so Ghulam Ahmad - when his bold claims proved to be entirely presumptuous, both he and his followers had to resort to peculiar lines of reasoning to prove they had been duly "fulfilled".

The second prophecy concerns a young Muslim woman named Muhammadi Begum. The Mirza was infatuated with her and even though she was refused to him by her father he predicted again and again that he would marry her and claimed that God had wed her to him as Zaynab had been wed to Muhammad (Surah 33.37). Not long afterwards she was married to an orthodox Muslim named Sultan Muhammad. What followed has an element of tragedy about it:

On the strength of prophecy Mirza Sahib wanted to marry Muhammadi Begum and to achieve his object, he used threats. In spite of that the girl was married to another person. Yet he did not lose hope because of his prophecy. In pursuance of this ambition, he disrupted his family, divorced his wife in old age, disowned his young children causing forfeiture of their rights of inheritance and estranged all the members of the family and ultimately instead of the death of Sultan Muhammad, the girl's husband or Ahmad Baig, the girl's father, as prophecied by him, he himself died in utter despair. (Durrani, Fallacy of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, p.28).
The threats spoken of included yet another wild prophecy to the effect that Sultan Muhammad would within two-and-a-half years duly pass away. When he also outlived the measure of the days assigned to him by Ghulam Ahmad the latter, with his usual casuistry, claimed that God had "postponed" the demise of his foe. Instead the Mirza died in 1908 while the "usurper" of his God-ordained bride outlived him by many years.

*** (quote between rows of asterisks)

It also seems that for a while during the interwar years in Britain, Ahmadi Islam(?) was sort of the cult-du-jour among certains. Even Arnold Toynbee thought that it might be the religion of the future. This may be why Ahmadi propaganda is very triumphalist vis-a-vis Christianity.

In a way, I can sort of understand why Ahmadi'ism might arise. There were considerable Christian inroads into the Punjab in the late 19th and early 2oth centuries, including the conversion of a man named Abdul Haqq, who in turn became the father of Billy Graham's famous Indian associate.

BTW, it is interesting to note that Naseem calls attention to ideas of defilement prevalent among non-Muslims. However, I stand with what God told Peter in Acts 10: "What God has cleansed, call not thou common."

This was a preparation to bring the Gospel beyond the bounds of ethnic Israel (Judaea and Samaria) to the rest of the nations. (Don't take my word for it. Read the Book of Acts in the New Testament).

Posted by: Kepha at August 7, 2006 7:57 PM

these people will be lots of fun to deal with whae the dictator falls to pakistani mullahs!

What is the difference between a leader and a ruler?

I was just wondering ‘cause I often see the dictator of Saudi Arabia called a leader but hardly ever a ruler. Ya see I always taught a leader is someone who is chosen by the group to be in charge of the body politic. A ruler is not chosen but imposed from above. Hmm, I guess the people of Saudi Arabia, China, Cuba all chose their political heads. I should go back to college and speak to them about my Political Science professors. It seems that I was misinformed about certain definitions. Gee it must be me since it appears that the media use the terms interchangeably. Next time I meet a Saudi king I’ll have to remember to ask him what percentage of the vote he got in the kingdoms most recent election.

And what’s up with the use of militant vs. terrorist? I was led to believe that a militant is someone who takes up arms in a struggle against another armed group. …

Read the rest at:

http://amassachusettsrepublican.blogspot.com

Posted by: massachusettsrepublican at August 7, 2006 8:06 PM

Kepha,

At risk of committing eisogesis, I will offer my explanations of the fulfillment of the two prophecies:

1) The death of the one who was lying within 15 months.

Neither man appears to have died physically (mutawaffi-ka) withing the timeframe physically. Therefore the interpretation is metaphorical and refers to spiritual death. One or both died spiritually during the time frame and later was interred in the lake of fire, the second death. I vote for Ahmad, or both.

2) The marriage of Mohammadi Begum.

Fulfilled by nocturnal emission, score one for Ahmad.

Of course, the possibility still exists, that Ahmad was a false prophet.

I hope this has been helpful.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 7, 2006 8:21 PM

What an arrogant reply by "Sister" Naseem, follower of the religion of peace. As I will always believe, most of the women living in Islam are as much as a threat to the world as the Muslim men. Yes, the Queen of England does wear white gloves. The difference is, Sister Nasseem, that she doesn't beat people up for sharing her space. If I remember correctly, a number of years ago, a man broke into her apartment. She calming listened to his story and offered him a cigarette. Like most Muslim apologists, Naseem must always wind up her statements with some analogy to the Jews. How sad and dangerous for the rest of us...non-Jews and Jews, sharing the world with a billion people who wake up hating every morning.

Posted by: Mary Rose at August 7, 2006 9:00 PM

When I went to Wal-Mart this past weekend, I was looking for some towels. After reading the label for the country of origin, I noticed that a lot of them (at least 50%) were made in either Pakistan, Bangladesh, or Egypt. Amazingly, I still found some towels made in the USA. Even though they cost $2.00 more, I decided to buy them rather than fork over my money to Jihadist countries. Stuff like this is definately a reason why.

I also noticed the same thing for some boys' and men's shirts at Wal-Mart and bed sheets (made in either Pakistan, Bangladesh, or Egypt).

This is somewhat ironic since a good number of Evangelical Christians shop at Wal-Mart. I wonder if they are aware (or even care) that they are funding their enemy?

Posted by: non-redneck at August 7, 2006 9:47 PM

Don't limit yourself to not buying goods made in Pakistan (often rugs produced by child labor, and some say those children are often Christian), or Jordan, or Egypt, or Bangladesh, or Indonesia. Make sure the store knows that you will not buy such goods, that others you know will not do so, and that stores that carry such goods make you more inclined to go elsewhere for other needs as well. If this is done enough, by enough people, it will have an effect. Every effort should be made to limit the amounts these countries have to play with, and to further the Jihad. Of course the best think is to cut all aid to them -- that is more direct, and more outrageous. Only fellow victims of the Jihad -- that is, only other Infidel states -- should recieve any aid, of any kind, from any Infidels anywhere.

Posted by: Hugh at August 7, 2006 10:25 PM

Naseem: that was your BEST tu tuoque?

Your standards have fallen. And why should the caste system of brahmins be any more acceptable?

Really, if your only complaint about the West is the Queen's gloves and - of course - the ever-inferred Jewish conspiracies, then frankly you have little to talk about.

Abandon islam. Your children will; why not join them?

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at August 7, 2006 10:40 PM

WHY DON'T CHRISTIAN CHURCHES SCREAM OUT IN PROTEST-WHY DOESN'T THE POPE SPEAK OUT-THE HEADS OF CHRISTIAN CHURCHES EVERYWHERE??
What is wrong with Christian people in the West who are so gutless when it comes to protecting their brothers & sisters...We have Bush and Blair who are always spouting-'they are Christians' but like to turn the other cheek-indeed would bare their backsides for Saudi Petro Dollars.THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING.

Posted by: Morgane at August 8, 2006 1:21 AM

Morgane asks:
"WHY DON'T CHRISTIAN CHURCHES SCREAM OUT IN PROTEST-WHY DOESN'T THE POPE SPEAK OUT-THE HEADS OF CHRISTIAN CHURCHES EVERYWHERE??
What is wrong with Christian people in the West who are so gutless when it comes to protecting their brothers & sisters...We have Bush and Blair who are always spouting-'they are Christians' but like to turn the other cheek-indeed would bare their backsides for Saudi Petro Dollars.THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING."

It'because the rapture has already occurred and the Christians are all gone! ;)

Posted by: Jauhara Al-Kafirah at August 8, 2006 3:28 AM

Naseem,
"As to JC being buried in Sri-Nagar....
I think it is a Jewish spread conspiricy...throughout history they want to be the centre of attention."

please take your disgusting anti-semitic drivel and puke it out of your oh so fine muslim mouth somewhere else. This is a forum for intelligent people who wish to debate, not for hatemongerers who have nothing better to do than to roll the clock back to the year, say, 1250.

Learn to be a good human being before you impune others. Being a muslim, I know, makes this very difficult, but you could always convert. Keep hope alive!

I just love it when muslims do this kind of thing. They show their true colors for the whole world to see. Keep going.

Posted by: bonncaruso at August 8, 2006 3:54 AM

From Naseem's post:

The queen of England will always wear white elbow length gloves to avoid human skin contact that may be contaigious or effect "the monarchy".
...............

Somehow I doubt the Queen would have someone beaten into unconciousness if they were to touch her.

Posted by: gravenimage at August 8, 2006 5:42 AM

Assalamau Likum all,

IP says "Naseemah, I thought that Muslims don't have the evil caste system that Hindus do - at least, that's what they always say."

We are all Ahmadi...there is no evil caste system amongst us...we (Ahmadis) are more united than that. This in essense gives us a higher status than all hindus everywhere in the world.

Geoff sayas "Naseem: that was your BEST tu tuoque?"

Sorry Geoff, which bit?...I try to tell it like it is...please be more precise...I don't do Taquuia"....you know that...for me Taquuia means the urdu word "pillow".

Kepha ...thank you for taking the time to research about (and then attempting to discredit) the Ahmadi.

Here is my take on this. As I said to our brother of the deen Mohideen Ibramsha (who unfortunately disappeared off this forum after delacaring me a muslim) that IMHO our founder the indomitable Hazrat Mirza Sahib was a fantastic spiritual leader whose transition to prophethood was cut short because of love. A prophet in my eyes is supposed to be able to transcend human feeling, see the bigger picture and be solely in touch with Allah SWT passing on his holy message.

In wanting to marry the pretty Muhammadi Begum he was side tracked and unfortunately failed prophethood....but nevertheless his greatest achievement was to tease out the peace within Islam....making him a fine spiritual leader. Many of the Ahmadi regard him as the Mahdi...I don't ...but I still have gynormous respect for him.

By concentrating on the earlier suras he brought peace to the Ahmadi and humankind.

The circle simply needs to be completed by more and more infedels seeing his sacrifices and adopt the spiritual light that he started to shine.

As to muslima arrogarance ...simply not true...but we are a proud lot...Allah gives the muslima much pride of place...so we don't knock it.

Posted by: Naseem at August 8, 2006 6:54 AM

naseem wrote "We are all Ahmadi...there is no evil caste system amongst us...we (Ahmadis) are more united than that. This in essense gives us a higher status than all hindus everywhere in the world."

I am sure many hindus would disagree with you naseem. I have yet to see any infighting among hindus. as religion hinduisim is very tolerant of the various faiths ssociated with hinduisim.
you see sikh attending hindu temples, you also see christians and muslim attending. all are free to attend without harrasment. can you say the same for your mosques? believe me , if your ahmadi religion wasn't such a minority sect and persecuted by the sunnis and shia your sect would behave like any other muslim groups, in harrasing minorities and enforcing the perfect laws of your perfect man, muhammed, laws of sharia. Sharia laws are very Nazilike. The perect laws for the perfectly violent, hate infested, religion of islam. The same religion that is 99.999 % part of your ahamdi religion.

Posted by: desidude at August 8, 2006 8:33 AM

naseem,
Since you have invited us all to convert to islam, and all of us have refused, what is your next move ? Do you blow yourself up all over JW, thereby making the pages messy and hard to read, or what ?

Posted by: arjun.sevak at August 8, 2006 9:29 AM

Naseem,

Your concept of prophethood is peculiar. One can transition to it, and/or fail it. The consequence of this appears to be, from your perspective, that your prophecies then are subject to failing. Since the prophecies must come from Allah to have ever had hope of being fulfilled, one must assume they have been abrogated, i.e. undergone naskh.

You then seem to ignore the concept of naskh in your assessment of Ahmad focusing on the Meccan suras. Many of these have been abrogated in the consistent opinion of Islamic jurists. Is your "circle" then, abrogation of the abrogated verses, and by returning to the Meccan suras, placing Ahmad above Mohammed and Allah?

You also have skirted around having it clearly demonstrated that Ahmad and his followers believed that Jesus survived the crucifixion, traveled to India, died and was buried in Srinajar. And that he was an unaccomplished prophet, excelling in deception and fraud, by their view. Is this your view?

Also, do you get to drink from the glass?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 8, 2006 9:42 AM

Naseem/

Her Majesty the Queen wears gloves, not, as you suggest, so that some indefinable essence of monarchy remains unpolluted but because the wearing of gloves for ladies is still de riguer on formal, and State, occasions. Her Majesty is merely conforming to the rules of protocol as many other ladies do in the UK on formal, and State, occasions. My own mother and my sisters wears evening gloves with their ballgowns and wraps on each of the three occasions in a year when we all attend such functions with my father. Naturally, they have different gloves for formal morning parties, afternoon receptions and evening parties and dances as and when required.

Gentlemen wear gloves also at many formal, and State, occasions. It is considered polite for a gentleman to remove his gloves before shaking hands with anyone but a lady does not need to do so. This is nothing more than a custom the origins of which are lost in the mists of time. Her Majesty the Queen, being, undoubtedly, of the female persuasion, therefore does not have to remove her gloves when shaking hands with people, in exactly the same way that no other lady does.

Were a king to be occupying the throne of the UK at the moment he would, naturally, remove his gloves in order to shake hands. No concept of 'pollution' is involved at all - just conformity with current formal manners. Please refrain from introducing some idiotic mythology into the custom of Her Majesty, and other ladies, wearing gloves at certain events and, please, in future, try to get your facts correct about British social customs and dress rules.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at August 8, 2006 10:01 AM

Jesus of Nazareth: "And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward."

Posted by: Dilys at August 8, 2006 10:31 AM

Sentence should read:

Is your "circle" then, abrogation of the abrogating verses, and thereby returning to the Meccan suras, placing Ahmad above Mohammed and Allah?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 8, 2006 10:40 AM

Assalamau-Laikum all

Dominic says "Her Majesty the Queen wears gloves, not, as you suggest, so that some indefinable essence of monarchy remains unpolluted but because the wearing of gloves for ladies is still de riguer on formal, and State, occasions".

Oh...myyie...so posh are we....will your "upper classness" be damaged by stooping to talk to us commoners what?

I wore gloves once formally...but they got too soiled while dunking naan bread into some curry...rather awkward what...hahahahahahhah!

CC says "You also have skirted around having it clearly demonstrated that Ahmad and his followers believed that Jesus survived the crucifixion, traveled to India, died and was buried in Srinajar".

Sorry about that...but in truth I don't know what to believe. Islam says that JC was not crucified but that it was someone else.

After 3 days of hiding he simply came out and said he has resurrected. If this is true then he COULD have shipped himself out to India for his own safety...and really be buried there!

However, nobody ...nobody but a true prophet would have such humality to say "forgive them father, for they know not what they do" when in such pain on the cross. So JC could have been crucified....and I would have believed it...but it's the resurrection that I have a hard time with. How can this have been possible...never to have heard about a dead body rising before or after I may add....that I struggle with?

So CC the truth is that I just don't know....I don't know what to believe where JC is concerned...also your historians have done such a poor job of this that it is open completely to personal interpetration...and some peoples go with the flow some don't.

Me I am in the water...but I not flowing ...if you see what I mean.

Posted by: Naseem at August 8, 2006 11:07 AM

Naseem/

"Oh...myyie...so posh are we....will your "upper classness" be damaged by stooping to talk to us commoners what?

Not exactly intelligent argument for your point of view, what! Sarcasm is not an answer; all you had to do was to admit that you got your facts wrong on this occasion. However, like the arrogant little moslem that you are you cannot admit that and resort, instead, to ridicule. You simply can't let go of a prejudiced, ignorant viewpoint that is demonstrably wrong, can you?

I fail to see what the wearing of gloves, or not - as the case may be, has to do with "upper classness" [sic] since on the occasions when ladies and gentlemen wear gloves in the UK it is quite usual for people of all social groups ('classes' if you wish) to be present (Her Majesty's garden parties, for example) and for everyone to conform to the dress code that pertains to these occasions. Your ignorance of British customs, social mores, occasions and dress codes is, quite simply, astounding for one who wants to comment on them.

On such occasions, I seek to re-assure you, water, in whatever container or drinking vessel is appropriate, is freely available to all (gloved or ungloved) - even moslems. That is more than can be said for Pakistan, obviously.

Now, learn the facts about British customs and dress codes and let's have no more of your superstitious nonsense about them.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at August 8, 2006 11:30 AM

Nasseem/

I wore gloves once formally...but they got too soiled while dunking naan bread into some curry...rather awkward what...hahahahahahhah!

You wore gloves whilst eating. What incredibly bad manners. An absolute insult to your host and/or hostess and staff (if any). I am surprised that you are ever invited anywhere.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at August 8, 2006 12:02 PM

Naseem,

That Jesus was crucified is well attested historically. Those who testified to it are predominantly those who would have preferred to say he survived to end the claim of resurrection. The Romans were quite efficient at the crucifixion process. Perhaps we can explore this more thoroughly on another thread.

The Injeel and Taurat both include instances of God raising people from the dead. Mohammed used the Taurat. al-Bukhari (hadith), Ibn 'Abbas (sahaba of Mohammed), and Ibn Kathir (tafsir) all state the texts themselves were not corrupted. It was not common Islamic thought that the Jewish and Christian scriptures were tahrif until the time of Ibn Hazm over 400 years after Mohammed. You should read the Injeel and Taurat sometime. http://www.biblegateway.com

You may also find interesting the following dialogue (between a Christian and a Muslim) which may guide you to specific answers regarding the belief in the resurrection.
http://answering-islam.org/Intro/discussion.pdf

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 8, 2006 12:25 PM

Naseem,

That Jesus was crucified is well attested historically. Those who testified to it are predominantly those who would have preferred to say he survived to end the claim of resurrection. The Romans were quite efficient at the crucifixion process. Perhaps we can explore this more thoroughly on another thread.

The Injeel and Taurat both include instances of God raising people from the dead. Mohammed used the Taurat. al-Bukhari (hadith), Ibn 'Abbas (sahaba of Mohammed), and Ibn Kathir (tafsir) all state the texts themselves were not corrupted. It was not common Islamic thought that the Jewish and Christian scriptures were tahrif until the time of Ibn Hazm over 400 years after Mohammed. You should read the Injeel and Taurat sometime. http://www.biblegateway.com

You may also find interesting the following dialogue (between a Christian and a Muslim) which may guide you to specific answers regarding the belief in the resurrection.
http://answering-islam.org/Intro/discussion.pdf

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 8, 2006 12:29 PM

Sorry about the double post.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 8, 2006 12:31 PM

Naseem, you claim:
"A prophet in my eyes is supposed to be able to transcend human feeling, see the bigger picture and be solely in touch with Allah SWT passing on his holy message."

Well that would sure as heck rule out Mohammed now, wouldn't it? Exactly how many 'wives' did the old pederast have? Now would you go ahead and make yourself useful - go tell the rest of your clan of billions the good news: Mohammed was not, after all, a prophet :)

Posted by: Daisytoo at August 8, 2006 2:47 PM

Gorniak,

"Therefore Dhimmi Watch seeks to bring public attention to the plight of the dhimmis, and by doing so, to bring them justice."

To whom, only like minded individuals? For what purpose, to admire each other's erudition? Does that bring justice?

I'm not in Lahore, Pakistan. I can't help mend the man's wounds, or help him get refreshment without repercussion. Somehow, I don't think e-mailing the link to Amnesty International or the Vatican will help either.

Maybe we could just petition our governments to stop sending aid to Pakistan because Nasir couldn't get a drink. Or maybe and embargo, or maybe I could stop buying towels at Walmart.

As helpless as it may make us appear, Naseem has a much better chance than all of that, if she would choose to.

Go ahead and chew me up for that opinion, you're not the first.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at August 8, 2006 4:56 PM

I think having Naseem here as an interactive voice of Ahmadi Islam is enlightening. For example, it is quite suggestive about the nature of her culture that she would assume the Queen's gloves to be required for ritual purity reasons. Then there is that ridicule of British "upper classness" combined with her serene belief in Ahmadi superiority to Hindus.

Those who already feel adequately enlightened are not obliged to keep reading her posts.

Posted by: snowpea at August 8, 2006 6:58 PM

Assalamau_Laikum all,

CC thank you so much for the links, I have had a brief look & book marked them for reading in my own time.

Gorniak says "if you think nasheem is doing something other than sit her large burqua-covered ugly ass here knowing she has an audience, like any muslim with lack-of-attention problems, you are delusional".

C'mon Gorniak lighten up...I have seen incidents like this many a time. Mostly and particularly being an Ahmadi you learn to move on ...there really isn't much you can do. Like minded sunnis turn on a sixpence...and on you own or a couple of you have little chance of defending yourself or geting much police assistance.

You may not like it and I CERTAINLY don't ...but that's life here at the moment. When you see dastardely and cowardly politicans cower away from passing the most basic individual rights...in effect against Islam...you learn to live with it...you have to ...I have ...and so will your grand childrens...that's just the way it is ...sorry..but get used to it.

Posted by: Naseem at August 8, 2006 7:05 PM

Naseem,

Your posts leave one no choice but to echo what many have speculated: a) you are male, b) you are multiple posters, c) you suffer from schizophrenia. Tis a pity your only trump card in any discussion is your belief that the world, in 70-100 years MIGHT grow weary of life, liberty and simple lay down and die. It may interest you to know that freedom loving people the world over will always possess pockets of resistance in the face of tyranny, regardless of how dark the days grow.

Remember: Americans(maybe not all, but that is just Darwinism anyway) have always possessed a "can do" spirit and will resist through all means necessary,and in future generations,any attempt to usurp our freedoms. Many have tried, and the outcomes have never been to their liking.

This is what differentiates free people from slaves: We stand up AGANIST oppression when confronted, we simply can not "learn to live with it." Death would be preferable.

The four pillars of islam remain:
Projection,Decption,Victimization,Infiltration

Posted by: We need G.C. Scott at August 8, 2006 9:44 PM

Morgane,
I do not believe that President Bush is a Christian. I think that he is pretending to be one to get the votes of evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. I base my statement on the fact that President Bush worshipped (not visted, but worshipped the deity that supposedly live there) in a Shinto Shrine in Japan some years ago. Korean and Japanese Christians during World War 2 refused to do what President Bush did and lost life and limbs for their refusal to worship anything other than the true and living God. I refer you to these articles.

http://www.worthynews.com/news-features-3/bush-shinto-temple.html

http://www.cephasministry.com/nwo_bush_goes_to_shinto_worship.html

President Bush has also been reported to say that Muslims worship the "Universal God" along with him. No follower of Jesus would make that statement. Since he is not a Christian (in my opinion), why would he help Christians in need? Remember, President Bush publicly declared that "Islam is a religion of Peace" after 9/11. I do not not think he has changed his opinion since then.

Posted by: non-redneck at August 8, 2006 9:47 PM

I learned recently that Pakistan's Christians are the descendants of low-caste Hindus who converted to Christianity in the 19th century. If this fact is true, it makes the incident described above even more horrendous. The ancestors of Pakistan's Christians must have faced similar treatment at the hands of high-caste Hindus. When they converted to Christianity, the never imagined that their descended would face similar persecution at the hands of Muslims.

In the same way that African-Americans united to fight against racism, Christians around the world should unite to force Muslim nations to stop persecuting Christians and all other non-Muslims living in Muslim countries! It is time that the non-Muslim world told the Islamic world that it will no longer tolerate such abuses? Fourteen centuries of such disgraceful treatment of non-Muslims at the hands of Muslims is far too long!

Posted by: Christian at August 8, 2006 10:42 PM

I forgot to mention that like the Christians in Pakistan, Jews in Iran are also discriminated against. For general information about the history of Iranian Jews and the discrimination that they have suffered over the centuries, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews"

Posted by: Christian at August 8, 2006 10:56 PM

We need G.C. Scott/

No, I have to disagree with you. I think that Naseem is exactly who, and what, she says she is.

I, personally, detect an enquiring mind and a person who has/is suffering persecution and in her own way is warning us that mohammedanism is trying to take over our free societies. I think that she believes, mistakenly, that we are bound to be defeated by the barbarian moslem horde and that, in an inchoate way, she regrets this. As an Ahmahdi in Pakistan she, and her family, is in a very precarious position. She knows this and feels that in a just moslem society this should not be the case. She still believes that moslem societies can be just - that is her mistake.

She is striving, as all of us are, towards the light. It is extreme hubris for us to say that any one starting point cannot guide a person to the light. The one true God is the ultimate in goodness, forgiveness and kindness (surely He/She/It will have provided the maximum number of routes to the Godhead) and if one can come to a perception of Him (Her, It) through studying islam then, unlikely though such a route may be, one will end up with the same perception of unideist love and its consequences as those of us who arrived at similar, if not the same, conclusions through the Christ, have reached.

So, much as I deprecate Naseem's obvious ignorance of facts coupled with her overtly superstitious view of otherwise innocent practices - wearing gloves or not wearing gloves (a product of her ignorance, not a direct product of her religion) - I have to say that I detect a questioning soul, a soul not wholly subsumed by the barbaric thought processes of islam, a questioning soul, a soul willing to learn and to adapt.

Otherwise, she would not be here on this board. She warns us of a future she both wants and fears and doesn't want. She doesn't know how she can be what she is and what she would like to be and what she has to be in her present circumstances without feeling some sense of betrayal to something numinous or to someone concrete. She is no worse, nor no better, than any of us.

At the very least she has the honesty, the courage, the sense of spiritual enquiry to talk to us, to challenge us and to ask of us that we justify our viewpoints and persuade her of their validities, both factual and spiritual. Her world may be small compared with ours; it may be circumscribed by the shallow certainties of the devil cult of mohammedanism, but she has a rare courage - the courage of warning and of questioning. I believe that she tells the truth as she sees it - that her view is skewed is not her fault. Rather, it is the fault of the evil society she grew up in.

But that she is not what she claims she is. No, that I do not believe. She has my prayers, not just in present adversities but also as a human being in need, as we all are, of all the prayers we can get. One day, I pray, she will see the light of Christ: but if she does not then I hope that she sees the LOVE of God, the KINDNESS of God, the FORGIVENESS of God and the utter insanity of islam and the belief in mohammed. I am sure she will. Pray for her.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at August 8, 2006 11:43 PM

Christian,
Hindus did not go around giving a hard time to the 'lower castes' as you seem to think. The caste system was occupation based, and flexible, one could change one's caste anytime. Yes, some people were treated as 'untouchables', but only when they were at work (sweeping, cleaning the drains), and I would like to see one sensible man who will embrace a worker coming out of the sewers. This entire business of 'caste system' is blown out of proportion by 'historians' who made a visit to a part of India, based their conclusions on 'interviews' with some people, and wrote 'history'. There are several books upon the subject by people who have actually lived in India in those times, and truly understood what the caste system was, and they present an unbiased view of Hinduism. Not many people bother to follow all facts, and continue to believe that the 'high caste' Hindus existed to give a hard time to the 'low caste' ones.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at August 9, 2006 12:41 AM

gorniak/

As a moslem she may well be worse than any non-moslem but as a human being she is still just that - a human being. We hate the belief and the belief system of mohammedanism but I for one do not hate individuals. Christ's message of love or, if you prefer, our carefully worked out caring, free secularist message, is for all. A little charity does not go amiss when dealing with individuals. My prayers for Naseem are not that she has a comfortable life as a moslem but that God enlightens her and takes her away from the insanity of that belief system - hopefully into Christianity but if that is not to be at least into some belief or system which is humane, caring and loving and more nearly partakes of our values.

One can liken mohammedanism to a disease of the mind. A disease which destroys the normal human responses of love, charity, caring for all. A disease which leads the infected to divide the world into "we true human beings" and "all the others who are probably not really human". With that disease in their heads the diseased people can perpetrate the most outrageous crimes and believe they don't matter - they have done just that. However, as a Christian it is my duty to pray for their recovery, to pray that God will guide them to the light. Those are the prayers that I offer for Naseem and also for God to keep her safe as he guides her away from the insanity and, hopefully, towards Him.

I hope that this explains what I meant.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at August 9, 2006 6:30 PM

Dominic,

You do approach the subject of Naseem with an open heart and there is something to be said of unconditional love in this. My take, however, is that Naseem is merely a calculating "Tokyo Rose" whose posts are thought out and possess an intentional purpose of misinformation. I may be guilty of too much independent spirit in this matter,being of Greek heritage, I'm the type that would just jump on a train, or hitchhike, or walk untill I found a better life.(If my situation were anything similar to what she describes) I hope I'm off base here,but I do detect something sinister on her part, beyond just enlightenmental inquiry.

Posted by: We need G.C. Scott at August 9, 2006 8:43 PM

We need G.C. Scott/

I take your meaning but, as I am sure you are aware, the story of Iva Toguri is by no means clear cut. Be that as it may, I think that you credit the poster called Naseem with too much calculation. I have travelled extensively in moslem countries. After graduation I donned my backpack and set out, as so many do, to see as much of the world as was possible for me to do so. I made unashamed use of the friends/contacts that I had made at university. I hitch-hicked through Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaya, Indonesia, Sudan and Morocco, to name only the moslem countries that I visited.

So, what did I find? Well, I didn't find some sort of world-wide moslem conspiracy against western values. I didn't find millions of devious moslems only too eager to mislead. What I found were human beings desperate to make sense of the world using the only value system that they knew - the faulty value system of islam. I also found people, just like Naseem appears to be, tied to a way of life that they knew to be, in some sense, wrong but unable to give it up because of their love for spouse, children, parents or whatever.

In Tyre, in Lebanon, I stayed with my moslem friend from Uni. On the first Saturday there he, and his parents, didn't know where the nearest Christian Church was so they telephoned their (Shia) imam. On Sunday morning he came round to the house and personally conducted me to the local (Maronite) Church. He was obviously on very good terms with the Priest and they enjoyed a few moments of what obviously was a close relationship (I later learnt that some of the jokes were at my expense, but never mind). After the celebration of the Eucharist I emerged from the Church to find that the imam had sent his eldest son to guide me back through the maze of streets to my friend's house. Throughout the moslem world I frequently encountered such hospitallity and thoughtfulness.

In the Lebanon I encountered many moslems whose views were syncretic to say the very least - and it is the minimum that I can say because to say more might expose my friends. In many other moslem countries I encountered the same uncertainties and mixtures. I also encountered great fear - huge fear of the fundamentalist islamists. There was no coherent philosophical opposition to the islamists but there was an acknowledgement - by all - that they were, in some sense, wrong. On many occasions discussions turned to what was wrong with islam, also.

In the way that Naseem writes (talks?) I detect the same tones and voices. Uncertainty and fear and a longing for something better. I also detected, as I still do amongst my moslem (if they really are moslem) friends, a huge questioning, a struggling towards something better than brute mohammedanism. I may be wrong, but I am hopeful.

It is my personal experiences that lead me to believe that Naseem is genuine. I hope that this helps.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at August 9, 2006 9:58 PM

necessitasnonhabetlegem,
Yes, they live in peace with the infidels sometimes. I am posting a link below. I have more than 20 such links, of different geographical locations and cultures. The Crusades stopped islam from heading into Europe in the 15th century. There were some non - muslims living in muslim territories after that. This is what happened.

http://www.bibleprobe.com/christianmartyrs-armenia.htm

Hindus living in West Punjab, now pakistan, met a similar fate in 1947. And you might find something about infidels in Africa. What they have been going through for the past 10 years.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at August 9, 2006 11:24 PM

Naseem wrote:

...I have seen incidents like this many a time. Mostly and particularly being an Ahmadi you learn to move on ...there really isn't much you can do. Like minded sunnis turn on a sixpence...and on you own or a couple of you have little chance of defending yourself or geting much police assistance.

You may not like it and I CERTAINLY don't ...but that's life here at the moment. When you see dastardely and cowardly politicans cower away from passing the most basic individual rights...in effect against Islam...you learn to live with it...you have to ...I have ...and so will your grand childrens...that's just the way it is ...sorry..but get used to it.
...................

I realize that you are a member of a small, persecuted minority, so there is no blame here--your fear is understandable. But this sort of Inshallah-fatalism is no virtue--here in the West, we fight against injustice and try to correct our own historical errors.

Slavery was first ended in the West, equality for women was first broached here, the fight against child labour, animal cruelty, the persecution of religious and other minorities, and so on.

Not all fights have been completely sucessful, and some have been too long in coming. The perameters of some issues are still controversial, like gay rights, abortion, stem cell research, the practice of religion in the "public square", etc.

Nonetheless, not only do many of us fight the good fight, we (mostly) have governments that allow for this, with fair and open elections, the right to petition, etc. Most Westerners do not simply shrug when faced with injustice. We do not simply "get used to it".

Posted by: gravenimage at August 10, 2006 1:00 AM

arjun.sevak/

So, what do you want me to say? Do you want me to deny the Armenian massacre by the white sheep Turks? Do you want me to deny the massacre of Hindus in the West Punjab in 1947 by Jinnah's moslem youth brigades? Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you but I won't deny either of those events. Both were moslem inspired massacres, perhaps even attempts at genocide, and both are historically provable facts.

However, the history is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the reaction of moslem friends and acquaintances, made at university, to my presence in their midst in their own countries. I was talking about my own, personal, experiences of social inter-reaction with moslems on their own turf - experiences where I was in a minority of one and they were the majority of plenty. I was talking about being a young, very young and callow, Englishman experiencing at first hand the world he had hitherto only been told about. I can only speak as I found.

I would not wish you to extrapolate from my personal experiences to the general: but, but, but, I would want you to consider my personal testimony when you speak about individual moslems. Good can be found in all individual people individuated even if good appears to be absent in a people in general.

The events of decades, years or even months ago cannot be relied upon to predict future behaviour. Sometimes an entire people can recoil in horror when they are shown what their beliefs have led to - Japan and Germany for example, Manchu China, Argentina, Cambodia and Chile to name some others.

Are you asking us to fight and re-fight all the battles of the past? Do you want us to constantly say that there can never be a rapprochment, an understanding, at the very least a truce, because of something that happened fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, one-hundred, two-hundred, three-hundred, a thousand years in the past. For how long do want to hold this grudge? It happened. Nobody is denying it (except the moslems, of course).

Move on! Let's solve the problem as it is today. Let us tackle the barbarian moslem horde as it is today. Let us win through to a moslem free world. But don't, in the name of all that's Holy, keep dredging up the past as where we want to go and grievances that we ought to shoulder. There are quite enough modern grievances to keep us going. If you want to take the raking up of old grievances to its logical conclusion we'll all end up as monkeys throwing nuts at each other out of our own individual trees.

And, for heaven's sake, start talking to individuals. Start seeing people as people, persons as persons. I have noticed, on this site, a dreadful tendency to see human life as some sort of disposable commodity. Life is God-given. It matters not what beliefs an individual may adopt subsequent to his or her birth, life is still sacrosanct, and casual, cavalier removal, or proposed removal, of life demeans the very values which we profess to hold dear.

The belief in the death cult of islam, in the devil mohammed, we have to challenge where-ever it arises but if we advocate indiscriminate killing then we are no better than they are. Human beings believe in islam. Real flesh and blood, starve me I die, cut me I bleed, human beings. Would you propose killing them simply because they believe in something wrong?

Ah, you would, wouldn't you. So, tell me my friend, where does killing people because they believe in something wrong end, eh? Kill 'em, go on, kill 'em all because they don't believe what you believe! What a big, strong, brave Hindu you are. In the meantime I'll try to find another way - containment of the threat and the patience of centuries.

I can wait whilst the moslems outgrow their insanity - as long as sites like this remain to remind us of why we are waiting and the risk we are taking in so doing. As long as containment really means that and not surrender. As long as we Christians remember our past - the past where we have out-waited everything else (nine eternal empires, so called, two-hundred and seventy-three countries no longer in existence, four hundred and five boundary adjustments in Europe alone)- two thousand years of patience and counting and we're still here.

But no, no patience, eh? Just kill 'em as they killed us. Fool! We have to find a different way or the war will go on for ever. War alone hasn't eliminated the moslem barbarian horde. We have to find something else as well. I don't know what it might be but I do know that killing human beings isn't, and can't, be the whole answer if the killing just goes on and on and on for ever.

I don't know where we go from here but sure as eggs is eggs killing more stupid moslems because they killed us in '47 and '15 isn't the answer.

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at August 10, 2006 1:35 AM

necessitasnonhabetlegem,
I am a man who judges people by their past and present actions. What I meant to say, and what most will get from my posting, is that islam is at work since its inception. Everywhere. And they are not killing in your city does not mean that they are not killing somewhere on the globe. That was why I mentioned Africa. Because there is a genocide going on there. I do not even mention the numerous terrorist attacks. I do not mention Serbia, Kashmir and Chechenya. And where in my posting do you get the idea that I am of the opinion to take a machine gun and start killing indiscriminately ? You say that we should not fight the battles of the past. Buddy, I got news for you, they are killing us even now. The behaviour of islam is the same as it was in the past, that is what I am saying. They are killing infidels even as I type.

Meet individuals. I have posted several times that I speak their foul language. urdu. Where do you think I learned it ? And where do you think I got the initial idea that the 'moderate' does not exist ?

Please go ahead and find the benevolence in the heart of islam. I, for one, have to find a single incident of kindness towards infidels. And I mean throughout history. Anywhere on the globe.

Please find a solution. Instead of making meaningless posts. And talking about waiting patiently for another 2 thousand years. Being a gay, you do not have to worry about your kids. Or, better still, take a hike to any 'friendly islamic' country. I never had the courage to see the Nick Berg video. Maybe this time I shall gather some.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at August 10, 2006 3:02 AM

Assalamau-Laikum all,

Dominic, I see that you are a true citizen of the world and willing to give peoples the benefit of doubt because of that ...thank you.

Now Goniak is a totally different proposition...he says the kind of thing a vile muslim might say....hidden convert are we Goriak?

Why would you wish me personal harm...I certainly wouldn't wish it upon you. Anyway something really bad has been happening to me over the past year and half.

My hubby got caught in the earthquake about 18 months ago...he had never made a proper recovery ...got more and more ill and passed away as recently as last month..and I am really suffering.

What new bigger bad harm do you wish upon me...please be specific...if it's death...then I won't be able to write to you ...and predict your grand-daughter's islamic future...now you wouldn't really want that would you....would you Gorniak?

Posted by: Naseem at August 10, 2006 7:01 AM

arjun.sevak/

Being gay I don't have to worry about my kids - well, I'll grant you that one cheap shot but I have eighteen nephews and nieces whom I love deeply and almost to the point of distraction. I've worried about them, watched them grow up, baby-sat them, played with them at family gatherings, looked after many of them for weeks at at a time during many crises and stood godfather to not a few of them (a role that I take very seriously, by the way). They are my genes, my family and my investment in the future so please don't try to tell me that I have no children to worry about because I do and they are children of my blood. Did you think I would have no natural feelings for my family just because I am gay?

Dominic.

Posted by: necessitasnonhabetlegem at August 10, 2006 7:54 PM