Isn't this how the dodos became extinct? Maybe we should just let nature take its course.

Posted by: Shy Guy at August 24, 2006 9:26 AM

Assalamau-Laikum all,

While I completely deplore these senseless killings what has this go to do with this forum?

The fact that they are muslim? We don't now that yet!

The fact that they are in Pak?
Well we all know what you peoples think about Pak anyways.

This story does not belong on this fine blog!

There is no need to compartmentalise such things into the Islam corner.

Posted by: Naseem at August 24, 2006 9:59 AM

The Theory of Moral Equivalency predicts that this happens all the time in Christian countries, but the media won't report about it. So, don't worry about it, Christians commit mass murder in the name of family honor too. The theory predicts it.

Posted by: Jesus Christ Supercop at August 24, 2006 10:00 AM

I think honor killing is a muslim gift to the world. At least if a Christian or non Christian for that matter, kills someone, they are punished severely. In the muslim world, it's ok to kill females. They have no value, except to bear children. Even that doesn't protect them from the muslim male rage.

Posted by: freewoman at August 24, 2006 10:10 AM

Naseem, stop trying to blow smoke up our butts.

As a mother and a Christian, I cannot fathom wanting to kill (or allowing someone to kill) my daughters and granddaughters.

Ever.

The fact that this is common practice in your benighted country and an accepted part of your monstrous religion should be shouted from the rooftops here in the US. The savaged bodies of those poor kids who had the termity to MARRY FOR LOVE should be paraded across the MSM for all to see.

Let the reality of Islam and the behavior of its followers be known. Decent people of all religions and races will turn away in disgust and horror.

A three year old little girl, for god's sake!

Posted by: treehugger at August 24, 2006 10:23 AM

Gotta agree with Naseem on this one.

Posted by: TooBad at August 24, 2006 1:26 PM

Hmmmm....so, Toobad, you think it could be those babbly Baptists? Pesky Lutherans? Caroling Catholics? Budding Budda's? Church of Christ? Oh, maybe the NON-denominations? That's it. NOT.

Face it. It's muslims. It's the bloodthirsty cult.

Posted by: freewoman at August 24, 2006 1:46 PM

...the reason for including this article, is to remind us how islam appeals to the worst in humanity,

and encourages the most barbaric behavior as normal

1500 years of islam, and this behavior we see over and over continues, and is reinforced ad nauseum

islam condones the beast

Posted by: charleston at August 24, 2006 1:57 PM

Somehow I think the numbers of honour killings are far higher than 1,000 per annum.

Posted by: Dan at August 24, 2006 2:20 PM

honor killing in islam is nature's reply to over-population there.

we should welcome this sort of news for 2 reasons

1) keep the number low
2) keep the rest of the world aware of the barbarians

Posted by: FedUp at August 24, 2006 4:54 PM

Freewoman, oh I don't deny that the practice of "honour" killings remains in some muslim cultures. However, I see that it was practiced before mohammad stepped out of his cave with a newly concocted religion. I just don't see it as a religious practice, I see it as a cultural/tribal practice. I'll ask you the same thing I asked another poster, show me the texts that call for it. I doubt you will find them. I must say, that with all the crap that we constantly here about how islam "reveres" women (I don't buy it)that the practice has survived this long.

Posted by: TooBad at August 24, 2006 5:07 PM

Toobad

Here are the references you seem to be asking for, assuming that the challenge isn't rhetorical:

Dictums of Quran and Hadiths which may dictate/incite honor killing:
Quran- 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way."
Quran-24:2 "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication-flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day."
Quran-17:32 " Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).
Quran-33:33 "stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display."
Now some sahih hadiths:
Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)
Sahih Bukhari: 8:6814:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari: "A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah's Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person."
Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
"A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God's forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her."
Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, 'We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Al-Bukhari:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise".
Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa'i and others:
Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, "No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!" In another version, it is stated, "When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance".
Al-Bayhaqi:The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "O mankind! Beware of fornication/adultery for it entails six dire consequences: three of them relating to this world and three to the next world. As for the three that are related to this world, they are the following: it removes the glow of one's face, brings poverty, and reduces the life-span. As for its dire consequences in the next world they are: it brings down the wrath of Allah upon the person, subjects him to terrible reckoning, and finally casts him in hell-fire."
The above Quranic verses and authentic sahih hadiths clearly demonstrate beyond doubt that Prophet Muhammad, under Allah's direction, stoned adulterers to death and flogged fornicators. Allah's decree/choice of death for fornicators (Quran: 4:15) and flogging adulteress 100 times with no mercy (Quran: 24:2, which also could lead to certain death) has clearly sanctioned/dictated dreadful punishment for sexual intercourse outside marriage. It is from these scriptural divine spirits Iranian fundamentalist Islamic government practices stoning and flogging adulterers even today. The Iranian Supreme Court sanctioned that an adulteress should be buried up to her chest and stoned to death. Mullahs of Iran know the hadiths quite well. This august body is closely following Allah's prophet. It is also quite prudent to consider that Muslim parents those who are practicing honor killing are directly motivated, or influenced by the above scriptural and historical (Hadiths) support; hence they are able to commit heinous crime called 'honor killing' with (almost) impunity, exultantly and with ample satisfaction that they are following the strict Islamic ethical code to guard chastity, as the holy Prophet repeatedly cautioned Muslims so seriously to guard their women's chastity.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 24, 2006 5:36 PM

I just learned today that my Italian-Catholic niece has shacked up with a guy. The parents are not happy.
Perhaps Monsignore will take them aside on Sunday and tell my brother and his wife to go slit her throat. If she's pregnant they can wait till the Baptism and the weaning, and then give the baby to someone else and stone Mama in the Lourdes Grotto behind the church.
Oops! Wrong religion! Sorry.

Posted by: Sansantiago at August 24, 2006 5:54 PM

Now now, play nice. I am a long time reader, but first time contributor on this site, but felt compelled to break my silence over some of the inaccuracies and minsinterpretations being construed here. Let's face it, while those Qu'ranic verses and hadiths appear to the untrained eye to be "violent" to put it mildly - I'm afraid it is very much taken out of context. So much so, its laughable. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for engaging in healthy debates, especially about inaccuracies and contradicitons in religion - I could go on about the Jews all day for example - but as long as it is done up to a point which is its not fabricated - you only end up looking silly. It is common knowledge that these so-called 'honour' killings have nothing to do with Islam, even I know that, and I'm a Northern Irishman (ok, so we're not the brightest of people in the world I'll admit). Its more a cultural thing - I have known of these honour killings to be 'popular' (I use that term tongue-in-cheek) in the Meditarranean countries, heard of it happening deceptively regularly when I spent time there - strong Orthodox Roman Catholic countries let me tell you. If it is indeed Muslims who instigate it - why don't we hear of honour killings in Saudi Arabia - the home of the Muslims? I happen to know for a fact it is actually a bigger problem in the Sikh and Hindu community in India, than it has ever been for Muslims. And no-one here can refute that.
All I am saying is, I read the comments on here avidly, some justified, some not-so justified. But lets not be biased here, if you want to claim something, at least make sure bases are covered, so you don't end up looking like a total prick.
By the way...where's the nearest stoning site in Belfast?

Posted by: Gary Baines at August 24, 2006 6:53 PM

Gary Baines

Please explain the context in which the above verses are taken. And while you are at it, you might want to contact the Islam-watch.com guys and set them straight. Those guys there are ex-Mohammedan apostates: explain how they are wrong. As for your geographical references, it has/does take place among Turks, Kurds, etc. Reason it doesn't happen so much in Saudi Arabia include a far lower and more homogeneous population, and very segregated racial groups: do you really think that if a Saudi woman wanted to marry a Pakistani man, she wouldn't suffer major consequences?

As far as Sikhs and Hindus go, one thing you won't find among them is that unlike Muslims, who kill their own family members, if a Hindu woman eloped with, say, someone her family disapproved of, she wouldn't be killed, but if anyone was killed in the first place, as opposed to being simply thrashed and driven out of that place, it would be the other guy. What's more - children in those groups wouldn't be exposed to that barbarism: if anything, they would be sealed away, and not allowed to witness such acts. But in the ummah, like in the case of Samaira Nazir, they have no qualms about exposing very young children to such abusive situations, and in the above story, killing them.

Islamic scriptures stand alone in decreeing what punishments should be inflicted on people; there is nothing one will find in the Bible, Vedas or the Adi Granth that comes even close.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 24, 2006 7:19 PM

Take a good look at the post of Gary Baines: it is a good exemplar of the kind of reflexive prejudices which pass for thought under the domination of the PC Multiculturalist template. No amount of data will convince a Gary Baines that Islam nourishes honor killings; no, you could tell him that all of the honor killings in Germany are being perpetrated by Turkish Muslim immigrants, and he will still brandish the "it's only culture, not Islam" slogan. Thousands of other data could presented to Gary Baines, and he will not budge. He cannot budge. It would traumatize his PC Multiculturalist template, and then he would have to actually change his mind about how everything evil in the world is the fault of the West.

Posted by: remote_control at August 24, 2006 8:15 PM

Gary Baines
Honour killing does take place in Saudi Arabia. Try reading Carmen bin Laden. The bodies are dumped out in the desert and no questions are asked. Also, in 1977 you may remember a Saudi princess was executed in public in an 'honour killing' by her grandfather.

The culture argument falls down when these killings are common to countries as geographicallly diverse as Turkey, Pakistan, the Middle East and now, increasingly in Muslim communities in Europe. Why should Turkish culture resemble that of eg. Pakistan? These countries all have one thing in common, ie. islam.

I would be curious to hear about these 'honour killings' in Mediterranean 'Orthodox' Catholic countries. I presume you mean France, Italy and Spain.

Posted by: Silvester at August 24, 2006 8:47 PM

Gary Baines said:

Let's face it, while those Qu'ranic verses and hadiths appear to the untrained eye to be "violent" to put it mildly - I'm afraid it is very much taken out of context.

Please do enlighten us, what have we all misunderstood or taken out of context?

Posted by: Silvester at August 24, 2006 8:52 PM

This Kuwaiti man returned from a pilgrimage to Mecca - in Saudi Arabia, the home of islam, as Gary Baines says - and promptly cut the throat of his 14 year old daughter:

A Kuwaiti man has reportedly confessed to killing his 14-year-old daughter because he believed she was having sex.
Adnan Enezi - an employee in the Islamic Affairs ministry - had just returned from the pilgrimage to Mecca.

He allegedly bound and blindfolded his daughter, Haifa, knelt her down in front of her two brothers and sister and then cut her throat.

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004816.php

But as you say, it's only cultural. Gosh, we're so ignorant here. So glad you came along to enlighten us.

Posted by: Silvester at August 24, 2006 8:57 PM

I'm gonna come down in the middle on this one.

TooBad is right that this is "a cultural/tribal practice" and has been practiced by people since long before Islam reared its head.

However.......

If a Hindu, Sikh, Jew or Christian were to do such a thing today, their respective communities would bring the full weight of condemnation down on them. None would be able to use any of these religious traditions as a justification or defense.

Sadly, however, much of Islamic society is still stuck in the time-frame where these acts are accepted or at least understood. As Infidel Pride points out above, there are many valid texts and current Islamic law that will be used to mitigate these crimes. Because of this, so much of Muslim society is unable to develop past the idea that female lives are worth less than a warped sense of male honour. Until Muslim societies break free of these 1400 year old chains, such crimes will tragically continue.

Posted by: Provoslavni at August 24, 2006 11:27 PM

This goes to show there is no love or respect in islam. And there is no honor in islam either.

Posted by: freewoman at August 24, 2006 11:33 PM

Oh, so Naseem doesn't want islam's more monsterous element to be mentioned on this "fine blog".

No of course, not. Let's just not mention the MAIN REASON WHY WE ARE ALL HERE.

We are here exactly because of this type of thing. The brutality. The killing. The butchering of the young, the innocent, and the weak. This is what motivates most of us, Naseem. So this is exactly what is of interest to us.

If we don't stop the tidal wave of islamization in the west, this will be happening HERE. And as you have said many times, you want the west to become islamicized.

Well, Naseem, this is islam, this is why we fight. This is why were are here. And this is why we dispise you and your religion.

This is what motivates me and my hatred for your cult and the people that freely practise it. And this is why I would happily die fighting to prevent islam from gaining any further foothold anywhere in the west that I can. Because, ironically, we care more about that 3 year old muslim girl than her own family. In islam there is no love. No compassion. No tenderness. Even for their own children.

It is a monsterous cult of monsterous preportions committing monsterous crimes. And any decent, courageous human being will fight tooth and nail to stop this thing as soon as possible. For the sake of all humanity, islam must be put down.

Get it yet?

Posted by: August22 at August 25, 2006 12:49 PM

Naseem, assyougottalickum to you too. Might I ask who you think committed this heinous act, if not some of your Murdering Muslim countrymen? Could it have been Marrauding Methodists, or perhaps a group of Baptist Beatniks or Epicurean Eskimos? The concept of "honor killing" IS largely peculiar to islamic society and as such perfectly eligible for inclusion here, regardless how shameful, backward and ignorant it makes your religion and nation look. Let the chips fall where they may. Tell the truth and shame that devil, Mohammed (Pigs Be Upon Him).

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at August 25, 2006 11:46 PM